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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread: Green Hills and Laughing Iizukas
- Thread starter Professor Beef
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Only shipping here is the Sonic Rush Adventure boat rides.
Agreed. Sonic Heroes has a lot of potential unlike Shadow and Sonic 06 (the premise of those two games were so bad)
Nocturnowl
Member
Nah, the gameplay still kind of sucks, it runs out of tricks after the casino stages and just repeats the same shit over and over hence the assy level design you mentioned.
Enemies take too long to go down to try and justify the leveling system, the controls being jank affects the gameplay itself, bosses are awful.
As i've said previously the flight mode is just it's slow, awkward and boring, never amounting to anything more than flying through a boost ring or lobbing a team mate awkwardly at a target.
The gameplay concept is interesting, the execution is not, ergo it's not fine at all, need I mention the somehow botched grinding system.
Hey remember how Team Dark's team blast halts the game for 10 seconds occasionally meaning you have to wait for it to end so you can progress? aha, it's great because the team blast kills everything anyway leaving no real benefit to the chaos control time stop.
Nocturnowl
Member
Well I'll be a hedgehog's uncle, there is indeed a glitch.
This is what a mental break down looks like.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
This explains so much about the Sonic 4 adoration
Tizoc
Member
Sonic is too revolutionary for Mafioso Mario:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue-jo2qWiFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue-jo2qWiFA
tiggerkiddo
Member
Actually it doesn't because Sonic 4 doesn't deserve your blind hate.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I'm intrigued, I must try it out now.
There are worse trends in music than Bah Bah!
There must be because no one is willing to accept that someone doesn't see Sonic 4 as the raping of their childhood series but a decent and fun game.
Bah Bah!
ViewtifulJC
Banned
It's neither rapes my childhood nor is it decent.
It's just a thoroughly terrible video game, and a failure as a sequel to the Megadrive series.
It's just a thoroughly terrible video game, and a failure as a sequel to the Megadrive series.
tiggerkiddo
Member
If you view it only as a sequel to the Genesis games, you'll be dissapointed. If you view it on it's own merits, you'll find it's not as horrible as you think. The physics aren't perfect but it's not broken. The music is a worthy listen to as almost all Sonic music is and most of the levels can be pretty fun at times. Casino Street is still the best part.
It may be considered part of the continuity of the Genesis games but comparing it to such great, awesome and nearly perfect games is asking way too much.
It may be considered part of the continuity of the Genesis games but comparing it to such great, awesome and nearly perfect games is asking way too much.
As long as we're making Kirby comparisons, Sonic 4 is like Kirby Squeak Squad. Neither of them are bad games, strictly speaking, but they're bland and utterly unremarkable. They don't have any creativity or original ideas to call their own, and the production values aren't good enough to prop them up from an audiovisual standpoint either. They're the platformer equivalents of Call of Duty knockoffs, going through the motions in an attempt to grab an audience without understanding why or how to do the motions right in the first place.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I think that's a poor comparison. I think a better one would be Donkey Kong Country series and the Wii one. DKCR is a very well made game but it's about as bland as the first DKC and lacks the charm and fun of the original trilogy.
Yes. Episode 2 is awful.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
DKCR shits on the vast majority of Sonic games from such a great height, you'd have to unlock all seven chaos emeralds just to reach it's level. And it's inferior to DKC2 as a total package, series-wise.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I'm glad you're impressed with one of the most beautiful but blandest games I have ever played in my life.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
What can I say, I love games with incredible level design, great weighty controls, and some damn fine remixed music. NONE of which can be applied to any version of Sonic 4.
10/10: Sonic 3 and Knuckles(DKC2, DKCR, Rayman Origins)
9/10: Sonic 2(SMB3)
8/10: Sonic 3, Sonic Colors, Sonic Rush Adventure(DKC3)
7/10: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic Advance, Sonic Generations(DKC1)
6/10: Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Rush, Sonic Unleashed, Saturn Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Heroes, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles
5/10: Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Battle
4/10: Sonic 4, Sonic R, Sonic Shuffle, Sonic Riders, Genesis Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic 2006: Sonic 2006
10/10: Sonic 3 and Knuckles(DKC2, DKCR, Rayman Origins)
9/10: Sonic 2(SMB3)
8/10: Sonic 3, Sonic Colors, Sonic Rush Adventure(DKC3)
7/10: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic Advance, Sonic Generations(DKC1)
6/10: Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Rush, Sonic Unleashed, Saturn Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Heroes, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles
5/10: Sonic Advance 3, Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Battle
4/10: Sonic 4, Sonic R, Sonic Shuffle, Sonic Riders, Genesis Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic 2006: Sonic 2006
tiggerkiddo
Member
I like to be pointed to where I said Sonic 4 was an incredible game. I said it was a decent and fun game. I know it's flawed but I can enjoy it regardless.
And your ranking is terrible...Sonic>Mario/Donkey Kong Country
Sonic CD is nearly on the level of Sonic 2006 to be honest.
And your ranking is terrible...Sonic>Mario/Donkey Kong Country
Sonic CD is nearly on the level of Sonic 2006 to be honest.
Nocturnowl
Member
Actually no it's not.
this whole little Sonic 4 talk had me quickly jump back onto episode 1 and it's like wading through treacle, Sonic feels incredibly sluggish, my thumb presses down so hard on the d pad in a vain attempt for better acceleration and Sonic just strolls along like it's Labyrinth and he's got slow down shoes. As such the game forces you to spam the hell out of the failed homing attack motion for instant momentum, it's like boost without the fun of boost.
A few of the stages have intersting concepts or gimmicks but the awful "game feel" (dammit game grumps) for lack of a better term is pretty awful.
So afterwards I played a stage of episode 2 and yeah there's an improvement there on the control front, and visuals, and music.
Tails is completely and utterly game breaking though it trivialises a lot of the stage design so it's still nothing i'd call great but it's the better of the two, good enough I guess as far as lesser Sonic games go.
Just don't mention the bosses.
Is bland and lacks the fun, yep that's Sonic 4 all right....oh you were supposed to be talking about DKCR.
We may not always agree on everything but i'm with you here on both accounts, still waiting on DKCR2 total package edition.
define bland because the level design is anything but, the first world alone is more interesting than the entirety of Sonic 4, then again World 1 has Platforming Panic so that's an unfair comparison really.
Professor Beef
Banned
DKC2 is the gold standard that's only really shared with 3K and Mario World.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I think a big part of the DKC series were the charm and fun they had and I thought the enemies made a big part of it. The Kremmlings were cheesy and hilarious and they made the games fun. I played DKCR for quite a bit but I found all the enemies dull and boring and it lacked the charm I had come to expect from the SNES games.
I see DKCR on par with the first Donkey Kong Country which was a decent game but very very bland. Donkey Kong Country 2 blows it out of the water. DKC3 blows DKCR out of the water even.
And Episode 1 doesn't have anything as bad as Episode 2, like the seals or the bosses.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Man, my list reminds me of Sonic Shuffle for the first time in years
Between this and Sony Smash Bros/Viewtiful Smash Bros, why can't people rip-off Nintendo's side/party games right
why add this half-ass RPG battle system
Between this and Sony Smash Bros/Viewtiful Smash Bros, why can't people rip-off Nintendo's side/party games right
why add this half-ass RPG battle system
Nocturnowl
Member
So basically Returns would vault up the ranking if it simply had Kremlings because that's pretty much all i'm getting from this wishy washy charm business.
I'd argue that DKC2 is the only one where the charm levels so to speak greatly leaps off the scale due to the enemies because they really run with that pirate gimmick to great effect alongside the stage archetypes.
DKC3 then just takes everything back to a basic normality that's hardly beyond Tiki territory, well except the arm flailing barrel guys, they crack me up.
Episode 1 playing worse is a bigger crime than the one walrus section.
It also has that final boss, the boss rush before it and that one boss were Eggman speeds away throwing bouncy balls, it's still got bad bosses.
Oh yeah, Red Hot Rumble was a game that was actually made, oh if only it could've been good.
tiggerkiddo
Member
No, I think it would still need more, like more interesting levels for one. The only memorable level I loved from DKCR was the sunset level on world 1.
DKC3 seemed to be a bit all over the place. It seemed to be going for a real western kind of feel but it falls apart at times. I think it still has a wonderful collection of ideas, more than I can say for DKCR/DKC1.
Episode 2's first boss was worse than any boss I ever fought in Episode 1, even more than the boss rush...and the less said about Episode Metal, the better.
DKC3 seemed to be a bit all over the place. It seemed to be going for a real western kind of feel but it falls apart at times. I think it still has a wonderful collection of ideas, more than I can say for DKCR/DKC1.
Episode 2's first boss was worse than any boss I ever fought in Episode 1, even more than the boss rush...and the less said about Episode Metal, the better.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
And the gameplay. And the general look to it. And part of the stage design. But then I recall that I wasn't very partial to Adventure gameplay in the first place.
Such as? Keep this limited to videogame music because I generally don't listen to the radio, lol.
I certainly don't feel that way; you'll get that general sense from Gaming Side, but I'd like to think the regulars who post in this thread aren't that irrational. They're just... yeah, I'll go with unremarkable too. I don't feel a sense of enjoyment while playing them in general like I do with other Sonic games. Episode 1 feels like a slog, and Episode 2 feels like it's something I'm playing through for the sake of playing through it. They're boring, and they generally don't feel that great.
I'll grudgingly admit that DKC2 was the best out of the three DKC games. Though that doesn't exactly say what I think of the DKC games as a whole, does it?
No, Nocturnowl, you're not allowed to dig things up from the past.
Nocturnowl
Member
To throw out a few, Tidal Terror? Stormy Shore? Bombs Away? Foggy Fumes? Muncher Marathon? Switcheroo?
None of this was considered interesting level design?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
tiggerkiddo
Member
I mentioned it earlier but the Japanese vocalists in Final Fantasy is far far worse. I would love 13 and 13-2's soundtracks much more if they would kill the vocals. The best final fantasy soundtracks barely had any singing, why buck the trend.
Even if I thought they were boring, I'd take that over a game like CD which was just a pain to play through.
To throw out a few, Tidal Terror? Stormy Shore? Bombs Away? Foggy Fumes? Muncher Marathon? Switcheroo?
None of this was considered interesting level design?
I played through Tidal Terror annnnnnnnnnd I don't remember it so yea, boring. I will admit Story Shore looks interesting but the game was too much of a slog after awhile to keep playing.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
What do you think of the inclusion of dance, rock, and pop in Sonic?
Nocturnowl
Member
No need, I remember what you said and I have a photographic memory.
I don't understand.
tiggerkiddo
Member
It's implemented in Sonic much better than Final Fantasy. Even the rap songs in SA2 have grown on me when I used to hate them.
Hahaha...Bombs Away is a good level? Only DKC2 did Kart levels right. Anything else just sucked at it and should have never bothered.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
How is the sound design markedly different in Sonic than it is in FF/Persona? They seem rather similar to me.
Sonic's more upbeat because of its emphasis on platforming and action. FF/Persona are more downbeat unless we're talking battles because, well briefly, a lot of it focuses on its relationship with the art design and bringing life to the areas' art designs. It brings character and atmosphere to the location, while the location brings character and atmosphere to the piece. Regardless, they're implemented with similar intentions in mind.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Dunno why we're bringing Persona into the argument so I'll ignore that part (Only played and beat Persona 4)
I think you can still attain the downbeat feel of the games without the vocals. Take like Oerba in XIII-2, an empty wasteland with an abandoned town being taken over by nature. A song similar to Twilight from FFX would have worked great for this, it would have fit the mood much more and often times I'll listen to the start of the song and it will sound good but then the vocals start and there is a disconnect. I thought a good use of vocals is like in FFX in the opening scene with Blitzball, it's an extreme kind of sport and that kind of music gets the blood pumping. And locations like the Sunleth Waterscape (I know I spelled that wrong) just came off sound cheesy with the vocals. It seems like a cheery location as is, you can portray it just fine without vocals...look at the music to Nautilis or the battle music for it (Feast of Betrayal).
It's why I enjoy the piano collections for these games so much.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Only tigerkiddo understands tigerkiddo, is what I'm getting from this page
tiggerkiddo
Member
Foggy Fumes is similar to that sunset level, at least the look and that's okay in my book. It's a shame the default controls are so awful, waggle is really awful. They should have given us multiple control options from the start. I know you can hack them so you can use something different but that doesn't excuse waggle.
Don't waggle, just sing Bah Bah! with me.
And honestly the levels in the first world, the levels in Mechanos and the levels in the final world (Not Krakatoa) were loads of fun. I like how many various ideas they went with in that last one, they were creative and sometimes evil (Lightning Woods). Talking about DKC3 to be clear.
Don't waggle, just sing Bah Bah! with me.
And honestly the levels in the first world, the levels in Mechanos and the levels in the final world (Not Krakatoa) were loads of fun. I like how many various ideas they went with in that last one, they were creative and sometimes evil (Lightning Woods). Talking about DKC3 to be clear.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Because your argument seems to be limited to Japanese-style RPGs. Final Fantasy is probably one of the last popular series to finally get with the times and frankly, I'm glad they finally did. Regardless, what'd you think of such games like Persona 4, The World Ends With You, Ar Tonelico, or Nier? Or even Devil May Cry with its cheesy buttrock, which somehow became oddly satisfying after a while?
I disagree. Final Fantasy--shit, a lot of Square properties, not just FF--used to be one of those series where I felt they pioneered a lot of stuff in terms of composition and sound design, and then the Persona series, the Sonic series, among others jumped ahead of them, and we've been waiting a full decade for FF to catch up ever since they started using insert songs. Lyrics have the capacity to add depth and colour to an instrumental without sounding like it doesn't fit. And frankly, I think the vocalists chosen have excellent diction and vocal colour suited for creating ambience. The vocal quality is there. The Oerba music to which you're referring to includes vocals by Joelle, who has been noted for her contributions in vocal VGM before (on the Last Ranker soundtrack--and the vocal songs on that are among the best tracks on that album, the Bravely Default soundtrack, etc.), and I feel like her contribution to that BGM fit merely because of the colour and non-invasiveness of her voice; even the harmonies in that are relatively decent. I think the VGM for the FF series in particular is evolving in the right direction. Edit: returning to Oerba in Final Fantasy XIII, I thought it was completely wonderful that Hamauzu's wife, Matsue Hamauzu, did the vocals for Dust to Dust. He left that piece specifically for his wife to sing, and it ends up being rather bittersweet with that knowledge in mind.
You used Nautilus's music as an example, but the key point of that BGM was majesty, and only orchestration was required for that. Feast of Betrayal was used to extend that majesty into a battle/chase scene, but added the silliness of an extravagant casino city in it. There was no room for vocals in those BGMs because they did not require it and it would have been out of place. You also used Sunleth Waterscape as an example, and instead of listening to an arrangement of "The Promise/Serah's Theme" for the millionth time, we get an upbeat version of it which directly correlates with Vanille's false pretenses of being carefree mixed with lyrics about the beauty of the area (edit: now that I think about it, it foreshadows Vanille's true nature and behaviour a bit). And I don't see anything particularly wrong with that sound direction at all.
If there's anything vocally that I take issue with Final Fantasy, it's how asinine the vocal theme songs are. They're generally bad or grating. The insert songs (ex: 1000 Words, Eternal Love) aren't that bad, but the theme songs can be awful. I think the only one I like is Zero, but that one isn't even as good as Karma.
Of course, what do I know about VGM or vocal music in general, anyway?
The Xtortionist
Member
DKCR has as much level variety as any platformer out there, and it's all quality. I put it over DKC2 because the move away from static pre-rendered environments allowed Retro to go nuts with dynamic moving environments Seriously, play any 10 normal levels from DKC2 and DKCR, then tally up the number of moving pieces (moving/tilting/crumbling/otherwise dynamic) pieces in both. DKCR will be up like 300:1.
I've played through DKC2 many times at a very fast pace and never noticed an issue.
And the secrets are what really elevate DKC2.
On Topic
tiggerkiddo
Member
To be frank, some of those tracks you listed, I found the vocals to be very invasive. I have no problem with the tunes themselves, I thought a lot of the tunes in 13 and 13-2 were lovely but each and everytime the vocals started up...UGH. Maybe you don't find them invasive but I did. They were absolutely irritating, they didn't add anything to it. Lyrics may depth and color to an instrumental piece but for so long Final Fantasy didn't need it largely. The use of lyrics in like the Opera Scene from FF6 or One Winged Angel added to it but they didn't overdo it. And now we come to 13 and 13-2 where it seemed like to me, quite a few of the tunes had lyrics. It got to the point where I wanted to mute my TV because either the lyrics went over the top and made the song a bit too cheesy or it made a song more haunting than it should have been. The Sunleth for example sounds great and cheery without the lyrics but just becomes comical with them. I don't see how sometimes repeating a song hurts matters, older FF games did it but because the tunes worked really well, you didn't mind them as much.
And yea the vocal theme songs are generally terrible...last one I really liked was Liberali Fatali. I know I spelled that wrong, darnit!
And I very much had no issue with TWEWY but that was a new game. It wasn't part of an established series, they were free to go in what direction they wanted (Wish they went a different direction with that stupid story sadly)
The Xtortionist
Member
Vocals just shouldn't be in looping songs, at least looping field songs.
STEP INTO THE RAINBOW
STEP INTO THE RAINBOW
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
What I mean by "colour", I mean this a lot of the time. It isn't just the lyrics, but it's the instrument of the vocalist that's also a major contributor to the mood and atmosphere of the music. How well does the vocalists tone colour match up and sync with the rest of the music? Does it act like another instrument layer? Yes? Then it's fine.
Heh, you sound a lot like my boyfriend with regards to vocals in VGM; he can't fucking stand them--not the theme songs, not the insert songs, not the BGMs, not the credits themes, nothing. And I can't do anything for him to give it a chance. But I don't think he gets to the point where he wants to mute the TV because he's generally (a little too) patient.
If your focus is on the cheesiness of the lyrics, then do you mute the music coming out of your TV when you're playing Sonic games? The lyrics in Sonic are over-the-top cheesy compared to FF's attempt at trying to be serious, Ar Tonelico's beautiful attempt at a language, and Persona's Engrish.
The Opera scene didn't have genuine vocals until the Grand Finale arrange, but even if it did have vocals, it would fit because it's an Opera scene.
I probably won't ever 'get' the people who want FF's music to sound traditional and static because I'm always willing for the series' music to evolve and get to the point where it sets the standard for other RPG music (whereas Persona and SMT are already there and I almost feel like they set the standard for FF13 and FF13-2 music). The sound direction for TWEWY made sense because it took place in Akihabara and the sound had to connect with that place. I certainly don't want Uematsu coming back to the series because his albums and compositions of late haven't been that great with the only outliers being Lost Odyssey and Sakura Note (and Guin Saga according to my bf even though I note that it's an anime soundtrack). But to be fair, I wasn't a huge fan of Uematsu's in the first place.
I don't think I ever liked One Winged Angel. Sure, it was probably a technological feat at the time for those not accustomed to hearing vocals in music in video games or perhaps even voice acting but... when you go back and realize that the true technical feat in VGM was this, OWA loses some of its lustre. Especially since its lyrics come snippets from Carmina Burana which has very little relation to the context in which OWA is being played and consists of lyric repetition (perhaps the only thing that might make sense in that regard is the estuans interius ira vehementi bit).
Rolling around at the speed of sound,
Got places to go, gotta follow my rainbow.
Can't stick around, have to keep moving on,
Guess what lies ahead, only one way to find out!
tiggerkiddo
Member
The Sonic games I most play don't have any lyrics whatsoever so it's not usually an issue. The ones that have, I usually don't mind because either the stage is done in a few minutes or I shut the freaking game off because the levels has me stumped (Pumpkin Hill) and they aren't populated with vocalists that grate my ears. Sure the lyrics may be a bit silly but sometimes the vocalist makes it work.
I don't want it to set new standards, Final Fantasy music has always been great as is, I never had any issues with it, even when they kept it generally traditional. And how does it sounding traditional make it stoic? It can still be traditional and be energetic. Would you say Hunter's Chance is stoic? Force Your Way? Boss music from FF7? Jenova? And honestly, I found myself muting Persona at times...well mainly Persona 3...Persona 4 had a catchy soundtrack...for the most part but I don't have much history with that series either. And Uematsu coming back would be just fine with me.
And One Winged Angel is kinda overrated but I just love the inclusion of latin lyrics...even if they may not really work well if you translate them.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Now do you understand why I don't mind the lyrics so much in FF13/FF13-2/other Japanese-developed games? I feel the same way as you with regards to those games in question.
Did I ever say that?
Again, where did I ever say that older FF music was ever "stoic" or didn't evoke emotions, as you put it? Hunter's Chance is one of my favourite BGMs on the FF9 soundtrack, but this is because it's enhanced by what's going on in-game.
The music samples employed in FF8 are terrible most of the time.
Jenova's fine because it works with the samples used. Boss music, though? I've heard a PC version with a non-optimized card which didn't produce something good, a PC version with an optimized card with sounded not that great, and the PSX version which could have used better samples.
Square-Enix's reliance on Latin, even though at times they use it with weird semantic context, improper syntax, improper morphology, and inconsistent phonology, is something I sometimes find incredibly irksome.
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