and Sonic Colors DS further improves on the Rush formula?
Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread |OT3 & Knuckles|
- Thread starter Professor Beef
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BlazeHedgehog
Member
I didn't really feel Sonic Colors DS. To me, that's where the Dimps Sonic games almost started to feel like... a licensed game, or something. I don't think it's a bad game by any stretch but it really doesn't feel very inspired.
Sometimes I rate Sonic games based on how many levels they contain that I actually like to replay, and it generally shakes out to:
Sonic Rush
- The first three levels (Leaf Storm Act 1, Act 2, and Water Palace Act 1)
- Night Carnival Act 1
- Huge Crisis Act 1
Sonic Rush Adventure
- Every single level in the game up to Blizzard Peaks Act 2 (Plant Kingdom 1+2, Machine Labyrinth 1+2, Coral Caves 1+2, Haunted Ship 1+2, Blizzard Peaks Act 1)
Sonic Colors DS
- Sweet Mountain Act 2
- Aquarium Park Act 2
- Asteroid Coaster Act 1
The more I ruminate on it, the less I've liked Sonic Colors DS over time. The levels are just too big, too complex, and not very fun to run and re-run like the first two Sonic Rush games. I'm not going to say it's a bad game, but I definitely don't like it anywhere near as much as the other two.
Azure Dream
Member
Colors DS is a step back in my opinion. One character instead of two, Wisps feel clunkier, level design goes back to more dickish, especially if you want to collect powerups (game goes out of its way to prevent backtracking at times). And it even makes the mistake of having a final non-Eggman boss in a lazy Super Sonic battle, when Colors Wii got it right.
I quite liked Colors DS, but it does shunt the focus significantly away from the boost in favor of wisps. Once you learn the levels you can still blow straight through them, but you really have to earn it. Neat special stage concept too, if a bit easy.
Seconding Rush Adventure > Rush, though.
Seconding Rush Adventure > Rush, though.
All 4 of the traversal games are good, although the waterbike's hitbox is a bit weird.
I agree with the above that colors DS is where dimps went on the decline, but it's still pretty good (it had better bosses than the wii version imo). Nega mother wisp has nothing on Egg Wizard though.
The collectathon was really weird in Rush Adventure and only solidified my belief that Sega has a checklist of genres that they want to throw at the franchise to see what works lol.
What gameplay element hasn't been shoved in the games? First person shooting? Dating sim
?
What gameplay element hasn't been shoved in the games? First person shooting? Dating sim
(Don't even fuckin try me Sega)
Nocturnowl
Member
Well dating sims are all about giving gifts until someone likes you so SA2 Chao Garden has you covered.
Okay, not really.
Okay, not really.
Man. Unleashed shits itself so bad in the later Werehog levels it actually makes me mad. Arid Sands Night legit made me rage quit - fire wizards, wasps, and defensive block-happy mooks that constantly respawn in like waves of at least three, AND heal each other? You kidding me with this shit? What the fuck were they thinking??
Before this I would have said that a PC version of Unleashed with a smooth framerate would easily be a 9/10 game in my eyes and my favorite Sonic game. Now I just want to get it over with. Embarrassing.
Sonic Adventure had flaws but the performance was fairly consistent on Dreamcast and the bad parts (imo only really Amy and Big, Gamma was fine to me) were segmented off into their own little storylines that you could get out the way separately in like two or three hours. Adventure at its very worst is maybe a Big stage with the framerate dipping into the 20s or something.
Unleashed at its worst has me fighting annoyingly designed enemies with a combat system that's beginning to wear out it's welcome, with music playing that definitely wore out its welcome five hours ago, all while looking like a PowerPoint presentation on a screen smothered in Vaseline.
Before this I would have said that a PC version of Unleashed with a smooth framerate would easily be a 9/10 game in my eyes and my favorite Sonic game. Now I just want to get it over with. Embarrassing.
Sonic Adventure had flaws but the performance was fairly consistent on Dreamcast and the bad parts (imo only really Amy and Big, Gamma was fine to me) were segmented off into their own little storylines that you could get out the way separately in like two or three hours. Adventure at its very worst is maybe a Big stage with the framerate dipping into the 20s or something.
Unleashed at its worst has me fighting annoyingly designed enemies with a combat system that's beginning to wear out it's welcome, with music playing that definitely wore out its welcome five hours ago, all while looking like a PowerPoint presentation on a screen smothered in Vaseline.
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm contemplating doing another poll for Sonic Music. Since Sonic is coming back into people's good graces again, I figure now might be the best time to try and get all of GAF's cooperation instead of leaving the nominating to us. For the record, and for those who weren't here when it first happened, here's the results from last time: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=151782056&postcount=7670
Sciz is trying to talk me out of this btw :V
Sciz is trying to talk me out of this btw :V
and he made a good point RIP me
Honestly, if this does happen, it'd probably be better to run it shortly after Mania comes out to minimize shitposting and get people to at least kinda consider games that postdate 1994/2001.
It's really because Chemical Plant and City Escape's enduring popularity pain me deeply and I don't want to see that further reinforced.
I looked at that thread and was surprised to see people talk kindly about Sonic. Still, I think it might be best if we leave the Sonic Music poll strictly to Sonic Gaf. Not many people on this forum like the franchise outside of the community in this thread/Sonic Gaf Discord.
I don't know but from my perspective, I wouldn't even consider making a Sonic Music Poll here. But that is your call and if you think its a good idea, then go right ahead
. Will look forward to it.Edit: I was talking about the recent Sonic music thread that went up today for better clarification.
Professor Beef
Banned
I probably won't wait for Mania tbh, but I'm also in no hurry to get this thing started. And since I'd want GAF's participation, I'd have to find a way to plan this since it would be entirely unfeasible to run it the same way I did last time.
So...it'll happen, just later rather than sooner.
So...it'll happen, just later rather than sooner.
👏 Open 👏 Your 👏 Heart 👏 and 👏 Unleashed 👏 were 👏 robbed
sixteen-bit
Member
Sonic Mania shirts are up on Amazon. Profile head shots of sonic, tails, and knuckles as well as a Studiopolis shirt.
Has anyone tried Green Hill Paradise Act 2? It's a recently released fan demo, attempting to bring the momentum based rolling mechanics into 3D, combining it with a sonic advance style boost mode and a sort-of-open-worldy sprawling level design, though it only has the one level.
I've been hearing a lot of good things about it, but unfortunately my laptop is as powerful and cutting edge as a baked potato. Either the mechanics are tied to the frame-rate more then they should be, or it just requires better reactions then I can manage at a very variable framerate, and my playthroughs are not resembling the ones I saw on the internet.
Any one else have any thoughts?
Edit: Dismissing the slighlty iffy controls and occasional clipping as side projects of it being a fan game, I think my biggest issue with the game is the choice to severely punish rolling uphill while also only granting boost mode by rolling downhill. You can uncurl at will, and the game expects you to roll down hills and run up them, but this is rather unintuitive and at odds with two other design choices:
One is the camera following sonic's point of view when going round loops, so it can be quite tricky to figure out which way is down in order to time curling. You eventually learn to note when the sky is below you on loops, but for the long tunnel parts the camera makes it feel like Lost World's Super Mario Galaxy-esque gravity, and you have no idea whether you'll be fighting or following gravity if you roll.
The other is Sonic has far less control when rolling. This makes switching between rolling and running at tricky parts often disastrous, and I'd quite like to be able to use ball form to naturally follow the contours of the ground going up hill as well as down hill.
In order to reach the damn fourth chaos emerald and a ramp that was a major feature of the trailer, you need to absolutely master rolling down a half pipe, leting go of the roll button, pressing it again to uncurl at the zenith, grabbing back the controls so sonic doesn't veer in some brand new direction, launch back up the half pipe, positioning yourself in the air so you land on the ramp again, and holding the roll button again before you land. It's bloody impossible.
Edit2: HA! I MADE IT! TAKE THAT HALF PIPE!
Edit3: Aaaand immediately failed a ramp straight after it, fell in the water, lost my thunder shield, have to do it all again.
Edit4: Sodding half pipe. I saw a streamer do this first time, why is this so hard?
I've been hearing a lot of good things about it, but unfortunately my laptop is as powerful and cutting edge as a baked potato. Either the mechanics are tied to the frame-rate more then they should be, or it just requires better reactions then I can manage at a very variable framerate, and my playthroughs are not resembling the ones I saw on the internet.
Any one else have any thoughts?
Edit: Dismissing the slighlty iffy controls and occasional clipping as side projects of it being a fan game, I think my biggest issue with the game is the choice to severely punish rolling uphill while also only granting boost mode by rolling downhill. You can uncurl at will, and the game expects you to roll down hills and run up them, but this is rather unintuitive and at odds with two other design choices:
One is the camera following sonic's point of view when going round loops, so it can be quite tricky to figure out which way is down in order to time curling. You eventually learn to note when the sky is below you on loops, but for the long tunnel parts the camera makes it feel like Lost World's Super Mario Galaxy-esque gravity, and you have no idea whether you'll be fighting or following gravity if you roll.
The other is Sonic has far less control when rolling. This makes switching between rolling and running at tricky parts often disastrous, and I'd quite like to be able to use ball form to naturally follow the contours of the ground going up hill as well as down hill.
In order to reach the damn fourth chaos emerald and a ramp that was a major feature of the trailer, you need to absolutely master rolling down a half pipe, leting go of the roll button, pressing it again to uncurl at the zenith, grabbing back the controls so sonic doesn't veer in some brand new direction, launch back up the half pipe, positioning yourself in the air so you land on the ramp again, and holding the roll button again before you land. It's bloody impossible.
Edit2: HA! I MADE IT! TAKE THAT HALF PIPE!
Edit3: Aaaand immediately failed a ramp straight after it, fell in the water, lost my thunder shield, have to do it all again.
Edit4: Sodding half pipe. I saw a streamer do this first time, why is this so hard?
Green Hill Paradise Act 2 is a very good explanation for why 3D Sonic is designed the way it is in Unleashed/Colours/Generations.
It feels like a too literal translation of 2D Sonic gameplay into 3D. Having to go down slopes to build up momentum is fine in a 2D game where going back up the mountain isn't that hard, but in a bigger 3D environment it feels like an incredibly annoying chore. Seeing this it's pretty understandable why the boost button in newer 3D Sonic games is a thing.
It doesn't help that Sonic turns on a dime, which is fine when you move around slowly, but feels terrible when you actually go fast. And when you do go fast, you go through the level so quickly that it feels like you're missing out on an a lot of explorable stuff. The character's main mechanic is working against the level design here.
Really for a big explorable level like this to work, you can't have Sonic go as fast as he does in games like Generations. You also can't make the slope physics as heavy as in the 2D games, especially not when you make the slopes incredibly steep and high. It just feels like a mess.
It feels like a too literal translation of 2D Sonic gameplay into 3D. Having to go down slopes to build up momentum is fine in a 2D game where going back up the mountain isn't that hard, but in a bigger 3D environment it feels like an incredibly annoying chore. Seeing this it's pretty understandable why the boost button in newer 3D Sonic games is a thing.
It doesn't help that Sonic turns on a dime, which is fine when you move around slowly, but feels terrible when you actually go fast. And when you do go fast, you go through the level so quickly that it feels like you're missing out on an a lot of explorable stuff. The character's main mechanic is working against the level design here.
Really for a big explorable level like this to work, you can't have Sonic go as fast as he does in games like Generations. You also can't make the slope physics as heavy as in the 2D games, especially not when you make the slopes incredibly steep and high. It just feels like a mess.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Thinking about it more, Green Hill Paradise really reminds me of the Playground mode in GRIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tQf724gNv4
There's definitely a lot to nitpick about it. The camera during the boost mode is pulled out way too far. Rings and enemies are too small. I don't like that you keep so much momentum after a homing attack. Doing an air dash without a homing target feels weak to the point of being worthless. I get hung up on stuff a lot when I'm rolling down a hill to charge my boost.
The level also reminds me of something StreakThunderstorm on Sonic Retro made many years ago for BlitzSonic. This is the only video I can find of it on Youtube.
I think what separates Green Hill Paradise from the GRIP video I linked above is that with Green Hill Paradise, they're obviously trying to bring the Sonic & Knuckles level design sensibilities in to 3D, which is what Streak tried to do with his Green Hill Zone map. But with the way you have to design an environment like that, it just becomes sort of a maze. You end up spending a lot of time staring at valley walls and not really seeing things from a bigger picture.
It's intricately designed, sure, but it feels very easy to get lost and it kind of lacks direction. GHP tries to get around this by sticking "GO HERE!!" arrows everywhere, but I dunno if that's really the best idea.
Comparatively, GRIP is a lot easier to get around because it's very easy to stay oriented. You have a clear view of all major distant landmarks.
And it's not really helped by the fact that enemies just seem to be placed kind of at random. They roam around a lot, and sometimes they're just straight up placed in your way or in what feels kind weird, out of the way places.
That being said I don't think it's bad. It's an interesting experiment. Exploring it is fun. But I don't think a whole game like this would work out too well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tQf724gNv4
There's definitely a lot to nitpick about it. The camera during the boost mode is pulled out way too far. Rings and enemies are too small. I don't like that you keep so much momentum after a homing attack. Doing an air dash without a homing target feels weak to the point of being worthless. I get hung up on stuff a lot when I'm rolling down a hill to charge my boost.
The level also reminds me of something StreakThunderstorm on Sonic Retro made many years ago for BlitzSonic. This is the only video I can find of it on Youtube.
I think what separates Green Hill Paradise from the GRIP video I linked above is that with Green Hill Paradise, they're obviously trying to bring the Sonic & Knuckles level design sensibilities in to 3D, which is what Streak tried to do with his Green Hill Zone map. But with the way you have to design an environment like that, it just becomes sort of a maze. You end up spending a lot of time staring at valley walls and not really seeing things from a bigger picture.
It's intricately designed, sure, but it feels very easy to get lost and it kind of lacks direction. GHP tries to get around this by sticking "GO HERE!!" arrows everywhere, but I dunno if that's really the best idea.
Comparatively, GRIP is a lot easier to get around because it's very easy to stay oriented. You have a clear view of all major distant landmarks.
And it's not really helped by the fact that enemies just seem to be placed kind of at random. They roam around a lot, and sometimes they're just straight up placed in your way or in what feels kind weird, out of the way places.
That being said I don't think it's bad. It's an interesting experiment. Exploring it is fun. But I don't think a whole game like this would work out too well.
I feel like the big thing that's missing in all of these 3D Sonic fan demos is a proper appreciation for the role of hazards and level gimmicks in the gameplay. It's cool that they can make the physics and controls more or less work, but when all you've got to engage the player is a physics playground with nothing else of interest, of course it's going to get old fast. Even the original GHZ was more sophisticated than that. By the time Sonic 3 rolled around, the idea of having to work for your momentum was already pretty far out the window in favor of intricately designed obstacle courses that sometimes had steep downhill segments.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0IsSeE_ckI
There's a link in the video description
Edit: And for those of you without Unreal Engine capable PCs or not enough time to poke around the huge environment, here's a walkthrough (no commentary), but really, it only shows less than half of the overall space in the level. I think my first time through Green Hill Paradise clocked in at nearly 30min.
Tizoc
Member
Gracias.
EDIT: Umm is Act 2 meant to insinuate that it is the latest ver. of the project or is there an Act 1 as well?
BlazeHedgehog
Member
There was an Act 1 like four years ago. Completely different level, and in some regards, even completely different game mechanics (the Mach thingy isn't present, you have a Generations-style boost instead)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jimWGmp7XTU
No idea where you'd download that nowadays.
Honestly it's hard for me to pin my finger on exactly what it is that turns me off from these 3D fan games, but a vast majority of the time I just find them boring. Physics are fun I guess but nothing comes close to how good SA1 felt to play. I really wish someone would take Unreal 4 and just rebuild Sonic Adventure as a base for 3D fangames.
Of course it's probably not that simple but I feel like aiming to replicate that with modern tweaks is a much better baseline than starting completely fresh with no 3D game design experience.
Of course it's probably not that simple but I feel like aiming to replicate that with modern tweaks is a much better baseline than starting completely fresh with no 3D game design experience.
Holy shit
Looks pretty great. Only suggestion mechanically I'd have offhand would be to narrow the FOV after a certain speed threshold. When going fas you really want to be able to see what's further away more clearly, and dropping the FOV basically acts as a telescope/magnifying glass in that regard.
Professor Beef
Banned
That looks so incredibly boring.
The trailer was interesting enough, although it looks to me more like a Tony Hawk skate park then an actual Sonic level.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Mr. Smiley
Member
wow
woooooooow
woooooooow
It astounds me more that people still believe that it's real. :V
Nocturnowl
Member
Indeed, SA2 a good game? aha my sides be splittin'
Mr. Smiley
Member
Goes to show my opinion of YouTube right now. :I
Professor Beef
Banned
Professor Beef
Banned
You must not tell lies
I'd be one of the first to admit the game is flawed, but I still think it's a good game in spite of that fact. But whatever, "controversial opinion," and all that.
Played another really old Sonic Fan Game last weekend. Might make this a thing, it's nostalgic in a fun way.
Sonic's Bible Adventure
And the SFGHQ review of it at the time:
Sonic's Bible Adventure
And the SFGHQ review of it at the time:
Professor Beef
Banned
Jak 1 was the good one, though. Possibly the only good one.
Tizoc
Member
I still think an Adventure-centric Jak game can work and really wouldn't need any form of weapon or fire arms.