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[Evil Calvin]

Paying the price of an unrealistic forecast. PS5 wasn't going to sell 25m during Sony's most barren period in a decade. It's not all about exclusives but let's not pretend they don't matter to a degree.

Analysts, Execs and shareholders will kill this industry. Well......it's obvious it's started.....with barren releases of games, rising costs and layoffs when lofty expectations aren't met.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Maybe Sony should quit spending millions on R&D, marketing and production of pointless flops like PSVR2 and Portal.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Maybe Sony should quit spending millions on R&D, marketing and production of pointless flops like PSVR2 and Portal.

Portal been selling good.

 

[NEbeast]

Yea, more fake news from the console warriors at

…CNBC

Take off those green glasses.

 

[{insert code here}]

Stop dumping 300M and 6yrs of development time into each game and you might see better margins. Spiderman was going to sell 20M regardless of how bleeding edge the graphics were because everyone knew the game was going to be good.

 

[tmlDan]

Maybe Sony should quit spending millions on R&D, marketing and production of pointless flops like PSVR2 and Portal.

Portal is sold out...

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

You're forgetting one thing about those people that suggest that.
They don't care

Oh for sure facts, a lot of them don't care and in fact WANT that to happen.

It just gets easier and easier to read between the lines with them when they keep saying the same thing in face of conflicting data.

I think some people are having some trouble processing that the push to 25 million PS5's this fiscal year has not worked out the way Sony planned because they view everything in terms of number of consoles sold and not in terms of actual financial impact.

Getting those 21 million consoles into people's hands dropped gaming to #3 in terms of profitability among Sony's segments last quarter and hurt the overall company results. First party software sales were down year over year despite the increase in console sell through. Sony expected lower profitability from console discounts but I don't think they expected first party software sales to drop compared to the previous holiday season. The idea of Sony underperforming seems to be really hard for some folks to accept, even though it's probably only temporary and Sony is very well positioned to bounce back.

They had less big 1P releases in FY 2023 (Spiderman 2 was it really, aside Burning Shores (add-on/expansion) and MLB The Show) vs FY 2022 (HFW, GT7, GOW Ragnarok). 3P also had less big hits (Warzone 3 was a decline vs. prior year's COD, Harry Potter did strongly but about on par with Elden Ring or a bit better).

No duh gaming revenue and profits 1P-wise (and even 3P-wise) would be lower for FY '23 vs. FY '22, even for YoY just looking at the fiscal quarters. So I don't think sales were less than expected on 1P side, after all Spiderman 2's already sold 10 million (almost 20% of all PS5s available, that's a high attach rate for vast majority of games). And that game didn't have the benefit of cross-platform the way GOW Ragnarok did.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

March 2020 was the recent low for the market in general, since then the Nasdaq, which is a good indicator for the overall market, is up ~130% .




Sony is up ~ 72% for the same time period



Most would say that the stock is underperforming considering the performance of the overall market. You can check the DOW and S&P as well.. the numbers are similar

Sony is a Japanese company, now compare it to the performance of the Japanese stock market

It turns out Sony is one of the best performing Japanese companies in terms of share price, because the Japanese stock market literally spent 30+ years doing nothing until recently

What I'm saying is if you want to make money, buying Japanese company stock is a bad idea

 

[Pop]

Oh no, what will Playstation ever do

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Sony is the opposite of Microsoft in terms of their gaming division to the company as a whole.

As in, PlayStation is doing great, but the entire rest of Sony is struggling. Sony is not geniuses, they made plenty of mistakes.

 

[ReBurn]

Sony is the opposite of Microsoft in terms of their gaming division to the company as a whole.

As in, PlayStation is doing great, but the entire rest of Sony is struggling. Sony is not geniuses, they made plenty of mistakes.

Other parts of Sony are doing very well this year and every part seems to be profitable. Music seems to be on fire. Financial services not so much.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well, @David Ricardo 's post basically explains what ISN'T a long-term solution in far fewer words than I could. What I do know of that era where Sony recovered with PS3 (I'm not super versed in that myself TBH, but a lot of things can be deduced by just looking at it in hindsight), they did many smart things, namely:

1: Cut the fat. VAIO computers weren't doing anything and costing a ton to make. Cutting VAIO to pour more focus on the console was the smart decision

2: Double down on console exclusives that appealed to core gamers at a time where PC gaming was still recovering, Nintendo was starting to lose players to mobile, and Xbox was neglecting core enthusiasts in their own console ecosystem with redundant 1P. The goodwill and improved market performance for PS3 in the last 3-4 years directly benefited the PS4, among other things.

Now look at the suggestions people are saying for Sony to do, to improve stocks and margins this gen:

1: Sell off the Financial unit. AFAIK, the Financial unit has been one of the most consistently profitable sections of the company, and probably has some of the lowest operating costs associated with it. Selling this unit off, IMO as an outsider with only cursory info, would seem like the complete OPPOSITE of what they did with the PC/VAIO unit. If anything, looking at the relative operating incomes, you'd think Sony would push for significant restructuring of the Sony Pictures unit well before selling off the Financial unit.

2: Do Day 1 on PC for all 1P releases. This is simply suicidal for the PlayStation brand. The exclusives act as distinguishing differentiators for the brand within the gaming market, and a gateway for hardcore & core enthusiasts, who are also early adopters (and have the highest ARPU on average), to jump in and set momentum in place that positively attracts mainstream and core gamers to buy in later on (as one of the big factors, but not the only one).

Exclusives have other benefits not tied to this, such as affording more targeted resource spending, better platform optimization, and fostering a sense of creative competition for devs (among the market, among each other, and among their own previous work). But there's also the fact that they help give platforms an identity and that identity helps with the branding, and getting the hardcore & core gamers, who become the early adopters, who set the momentum that helps influence mainstream & casuals to jump in later on. It's all connected, and getting rid of genuine exclusives for a Day 1 strategy on PC destroys the entire chain and sets in big platform decline.

PlayStation needs its exclusives, arguably now more than ever. Sony doesn't have vested interests in PC like Microsoft to where throwing away their console base for PC gaming becomes a write-off. So without the vested interests, it makes zero sense for them to pursue that type of strategy and allow their gaming business to be much more at the domain and control/influence of direct competitors. Nintendo gets it; Sony needs to get it.

If anything Sony should be looking at what things platforms like Steam do right, that PlayStation could implement on their platform to improve it, and make the console even more appealing in doing so. And with games, that means prioritizing big, medium, and small exclusives as much as possible. Even if they want to bring the games to other platforms, make the port windows make sense so PlayStation console owners aren't waiting longer to get 1P games, aren't getting more bugged 1P games at launch, and can always count on getting new 1P genuine exclusives within a reasonable window a game gets ported to other platforms like PC.

Also would say, a lot of the money spent on the PC ports could be better spent on doing more 1P AA titles, and getting a higher ROI on them. Insomniac suggested that themselves in the data from the ransomware hack.

What is also crazy, is that the people who keep saying Sony should do Day 1 for PC in particular, just conveniently pretend Microsoft didn't JUST buy two massive 3P publishers in large part to increase their own gaming revenue and profit margins. But now that people are asking what Sony can do, suddenly 3P publisher M&As just disappears as a topic? If M&As were supposedly so beneficial for Microsoft, why wouldn't they be for Sony? It's these people who expose themselves and their hypocrisy. They either have to admit they're complete hypocrites, or admit that 3P M&As aren't worth it (meaning Microsoft just wasted > $80 billion), or admit that the only way to make big 3P M&As work is to basically go multiplat (reaffirming the notion that Microsoft are doing exactly that and trying to ease their diehards into accepting it).

No matter what way they try to spin it, it will ALWAYS force them to reveal an uncomfortable truth about Xbox, and a lot of us don't want PlayStation to follow down that path. That's why we're so vocal in the first place, almost to the point of sounding jaded or very critical of certain things (some WAYYY more than others o.0). But I know from my POV, it's because I genuinely want to see PlayStation thrive; it's the brand that best represents gaming and has been around since my childhood. It's also the brand that has routinely shown it best understands the (non-mobile) gaming industry, and I say that even while having tons of appreciation & love for Nintendo, classic SEGA and (quite less so, but still there) Microsoft.

People arent suggesting Sony sell off their financial unit. They are doing it. The are trying to sell off 80% of it, and use the money towards entertainment divisions. That financial unit I believe is consistently profitable, but not a grower. So spin it off so they can focus on more entertainment divisions. They'd actually been looking to do this since last year.

Sony is trying to consolidate the parent company into an entertainment company. So as you said VAIO is gone long time ago. Financial services now. In time that low margin TV and BR player division will be too. It might be entertainment, but it's low margin. Then again, it might be close enough to keep it around as movies and TV shows link up with TVs and home audio.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/sony-eyes-partial-spin-off-sony-financial-group-2023-05-18/

https://www.reuters.com/technology/sony-profit-falls-15-april-december-period-2024-02-14/#:~:text=Sony%2C%20which%20in%202023%20said,stake%20of%20just%20under%2020%25.

Sony to Relist Financial Unit on TSE in Oct. 2025

Sony Group Corp. said it will spin off and list the Sony Financial Group Inc. unit again on the Tokyo Stock Exchange in October 2025. In May last year, Sony Group already announced its plan to split...

www.marketscreener.com

 

[nial]

Sony shouldnt have let him go. Pay him what he wants and hold on for dear life. He would have a balance approach to gaas, smaller AA games and big blockbusters AAA throughout the years like what we had 2016-2020.

Shawn Layden was CEO of Sony Interactive Entertainment America, so practically nothing when it comes to software development (or most things, really). Yeah, he was also chairman of SIE WWS Global, but come on, we know Shuhei Yoshida did most of the work there.

 

[nial]

First Eric Lempel is definitely not tipped to be the next CEO. That Totoki has given himself a year to find Jim's replacement suggests a lack of confidence in Eric. This was propelled by Totoki saying SIE doesn't understand the role they play in growth.

You believe Lin Tao, SVP of Finance, will get that role, right?

And after this report they will still probably give Druckmann 500+ million for TLOU3 6 year+ development...

I don't believe so, I think Totoki was clear with his message (if you're not being productive, fuck off).

 

[DavidGzz]

Right back to doing what got you banned last time. Never change, artie.

Only MS gets bad news threads here? lol, don't be so salty.

 

[kungfuian]

Some of this has to be due to delays in their 1st party output. Based on their recent/projected 1st party output vs. the number of studios they have, it's obvious many of their projects have been in the oven for a long long time. This expense would usually be offset by a nice cadence of releases each year, but the pandemic has cause a delay in that pipeline, and as a result they have been spending like crazy to develop games but very few are ready for release.

Of course there are other factors but this has to be impacting their margins and will until they can start getting those big games out the door.

By the way this is not to imply they have not delivered as far as good exclusive content, because they have done a great job aligning themselves with exclusive 3rd party games to offset this reduced output. But from a dollars and cents perspective their margins will probably remain poor until they actually release more of these big games to recoup the development costs.

 

[twilo99]

I get it…yes, under performing this moment. But all it takes is a game announcement or a pro official announcement to change that tune. People catastrophize literally everything these days. Shit fluctuates like any other stock. The fact that some are trying to paint a picture like “Sony is done”, or “PlayStation is dead” is insane to me. I’ve see uneducated people comment on things around here for a very long time…but when it comes to the stock market, whether it be Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft, it’s wild to me how little people really know, and they are just talking to talk because their favorite company isn’t the one involved

Edit - to add. People are discounting Sony because the my said a “existing franchise” isn’t releasing a new game before FY 2025. What’s that even mean??

Here’s the answer…share holder talk.

Sony is still performing well and it’s not going anywhere, I was just pointing out that their stock price isn’t doing anything special, it’s just following the general market trend while underperforming overall.

It doesn’t mean much, like you say, it can change very quickly.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You believe Lin Tao, SVP of Finance, will get that role, right?

As of right now, I'd say she is more likely than Eric Lempel or Hermen Hulst, but I'm not sure it would be a great choice, but I also don't know that there is a great choice.

The next CEO of SIE needs to understand the following

• Multiplatform is key to profit margins
  • This doesn't just mean releasing games on PC, it means releasing a handheld that increases game margins and sales, in fact I think a handheld is far more important than PC
    • It also means creating a PC Storefront
• Transmedia is the key to higher exposure and higher sales per title
• That SIE desperately needs not only AAA titles but diversity in titles
• That GaaS is necessary to maintain revenue and cash throughout the year.
• That growth through acquisitions is fundamental to SIE's survival in the industry, but that type of growth must focus on portfolio diversification and not cannibalize existing software sales.

Does Lin Tao understand all of that? I have no idea. I do know that she worked for current Sony Group CEO Kenichiro Yoshida and that she probably has the best understanding of SIE's financials and the M&A team probably reports up to her. She's also experienced Sony being outpaced in the mobile phone sector, whether she was involved or responsible for that, I wouldn't know.

I just think that if it was Eric Lempel, they would have promoted him already.

They could also go with the first external CEO or they could bring in someone from other parts of Sony Group.

 

[RickMasters]

IIRC in the Insomnia leaks was also a powerpoint (sorry, can not find it fast) in which the author pitched that Sony should instead of doing one 300mio game rather three 100Mio games. Such doing more games with less risk per game. And lets be honest, even 100mio is already a pretty high budget which should allow high quality games.
I think Sony needs both, a few high budget games with mass market appeal and some more medium to lower budget games which are successful even with lower sales.
This idea would pretty much go in the direction you (and some others) suggest: spend less per title and do more titles. Yes, we had games like Spiderman and GOW, but for example Returnal and Helldivers2 were very good games probably on a lower budget. And while Helldivers2 can probably not sell as much as Spiderman does, it is still very successful for its budget and beats probably every sane expectation.

Returnal especially is a good example here. It may not have the budgets of bigger games but through art direction and raw mechanics it stays engaging. I’d certainly like to see more of this sort of game throughly the industry.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Good watch to get a sense of who Totoki is and how he thinks.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Sony Mobile Boss Totoki: 'We Will Never, Ever Sell or Exit' Mobile Business

 

[Mibu no ookami]

My guess is that Totoki is planning generally 10% across the board cuts at all Studios (likely dependant on current profitability and potential) and planning on closing a studio or two.

Studios that are likely to be closed: Media Molecule and London Studio. With runners up being Bend Studio

 

[trintrop]

Isnt something like 60% of there development costs on GAAS now?. Which is additive to what they were doing previously. I'd imagine once a couple more of these games come out the picture will look alot better.

 

[Raven117]

Guess games are jover

 

[nial]

My guess is that Totoki is planning generally 10% across the board cuts at all Studios (likely dependant on current profitability and potential) and planning on closing a studio or two.

Studios that are likely to be closed: Media Molecule and London Studio. With runners up being Bend Studio

I'm not sure if SIEE would be comfortable with shutting down its internal development operations (London Studio is a department rather than a subsidiary like Media Molecule), but the other two are the most likely if their next projects end up being big wastes of money, yes.

 

[Barakov]

Sony Mobile Boss Totoki: 'We Will Never, Ever Sell or Exit' Mobile Business

That's not surprising. Weren't they making landfill size amounts of money on Fate Grand Order? After seeing that kind of money it's hard to let it go.

 

[bender]

My guess is that Totoki is planning generally 10% across the board cuts at all Studios (likely dependant on current profitability and potential) and planning on closing a studio or two.

Studios that are likely to be closed: Media Molecule and London Studio. With runners up being Bend Studio

It's amazing that Media Molecule has made it this long, tbh.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

My guess is that Totoki is planning generally 10% across the board cuts at all Studios (likely dependant on current profitability and potential) and planning on closing a studio or two.

Studios that are likely to be closed: Media Molecule and London Studio. With runners up being Bend Studio

It's amazing that Media Molecule has made it this long, tbh.

Going by Sony's earnings reports since I skimmed them going back to 2016 when I did a recap chart, if I was Sony I'd first look into slashing products and people from that Entertainment & tech division (TVs, audio, mobile stuff).

Never mind the giant losses they had 10 years ago when the division had billions of losses. The past 6-7 years of earnings that division is still a dog. Usually it makes hardly any money. If it squeaks out 5% margin that's an achievement itself.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I'm not sure if SIEE would be comfortable with shutting down its internal development operations (London Studio is a department rather than a subsidiary like Media Molecule), but the other two are the most likely if their next projects end up being big wastes of money, yes.

You could make a similar argument about Japan Studios, yet here we are.

That's not surprising. Weren't they making landfill size amounts of money on Fate Grand Order? After seeing that kind of money it's hard to let it go.

You are thinking of Sony Music not Sony Mobile. The headline there is not the story, more so the layoffs Totoki put in place to "save" the company. Spoiler, it didn't. Not sure whether it's fair to blame him, but Sony Mobile took a massive tumble after he got there.

It's amazing that Media Molecule has made it this long, tbh.

I agree, however it is key to note that every game Media Molecule has released has been well received.

Going by Sony's earnings reports since I skimmed them going back to 2016 when I did a recap chart, if I was Sony I'd first look into slashing products and people from that Entertainment & tech division (TVs, audio, mobile stuff).

Never mind the giant losses they had 10 years ago when the division had billions of losses. The past 6-7 years of earnings that division is still a dog. Usually it makes hardly any money. If it squeaks out 5% margin that's an achievement itself.

There will likely be cuts to all areas of Sony, but I don't think SIE will go untouched (they already haven't, you're seeing hiring freezes and layoffs already, just not at a super large scale).

If cuts result in a degradation of product, they haven't really achieved what you hoped. That's why you should always churn your staff rather than do layoffs.

 

[bender]

I agree, however it is key to note that every game Media Molecule has released has been well received.

That hasn't always translated to sales and that seems to be at the forefront of Sony's leadership these days. I admire MM's work and that Sony has stuck with them for so long, but it wouldn't surprise me if we hear they are being shuttered any day now.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That hasn't always translated to sales and that seems to be at the forefront of Sony's leadership these days. I admire MM's work and that Sony has stuck with them for so long, but it wouldn't surprise me if we hear they are being shuttered any day now.

If you keep making good games and it increases your general prestige and you don't cost too much money, there isn't a lot of reason to shut you down.

ICO Team didn't make them a ton of money, but they garnered a lot of attention. It wasn't until Last Guardian and the delays and the ultimate quality of the game that caused ICO Team to essentially be let go.

 

[nial]

You could make a similar argument about Japan Studios, yet here we are.

Not at all. Team Asobi is a department inside of SCEI, they're not like Polyphony Digital (a subsidiary).

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sonyinteractive.com

 

[bender]

If you keep making good games and it increases your general prestige and you don't cost too much money, there isn't a lot of reason to shut you down.

ICO Team didn't make them a ton of money, but they garnered a lot of attention. It wasn't until Last Guardian and the delays and the ultimate quality of the game that caused ICO Team to essentially be let go.

Not really talking about Team ICO. Sony just seems more cut throat these days. Clap Hanz always brought a quality title or two every generation and while they had modest sales, their team size and development costs are probably a fraction of MMs so it's hard to imagine them not being profitable, but they've moved on to IOS/Switch.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Not at all. Team Asobi is a department inside of SCEI, they're not like Polyphony Digital (a subsidiary).

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sonyinteractive.com

I said Japan Studios not Polyphony Digital.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Sony is still performing well and it’s not going anywhere, I was just pointing out that their stock price isn’t doing anything special, it’s just following the general market trend while underperforming overall.

It doesn’t mean much, like you say, it can change very quickly.

Oh, I gotcha. I actually misread your initial reply as you implying that they were failing, that was the other person I was replying to about it before my response to you, sorry about that, I got overly passionate for a second lol

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Not really talking about Team ICO. Sony just seems more cut throat these days. Clap Hanz always brought a quality title or two every generation and while they had modest sales, their team size and development costs are probably a fraction of MMs so it's hard to imagine them not being profitable, but they've moved on to IOS/Switch.

That was their choice more than Sonys. They wanted to create games for other platforms because sales were drying up on the PS4. If Sony had a handheld, they might still be making PlayStation games.

 

[bender]

That was their choice more than Sonys. They wanted to create games for other platforms because sales were drying up on the PS4. If Sony had a handheld, they might still be making PlayStation games.

Got a source for that?

 

[nial]

I said Japan Studios not Polyphony Digital.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Team Asobi, much like Japan Studio, is part of SIE JP's internal development operations, so they don't have to solely rely on Polyphony Digital, a subsidiary, for Japanese in-house content.
I don't see where this is true.

You could make a similar argument about Japan Studios, yet here we are.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Got a source for that?

Clap Hanz Interview: Bringing ‘Easy Come Easy Golf’ to Switch, a Potential Steam Release, Chances of a Physical Version, and More – TouchArcade

It has been nearly two years since Easy Come Easy Golf (previously Clap Hanz Golf) released on Apple Arcade. I spoke to the team at Clap Hanz then about the game, working with Apple, the developer's first release outside PlayStation, and more.

toucharcade.com

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think you're misunderstanding me. Team Asobi, much like Japan Studio, is part of SIE JP's internal development operations, so they don't have to solely rely on Polyphony Digital, a subsidiary, for Japanese in-house content.
I don't see where this is true.

I said they might shut down London Studios and you said they wouldn't shut down a department, so I cited Japan Studio.

 

[bender]

Clap Hanz Interview: Bringing ‘Easy Come Easy Golf’ to Switch, a Potential Steam Release, Chances of a Physical Version, and More – TouchArcade

It has been nearly two years since Easy Come Easy Golf (previously Clap Hanz Golf) released on Apple Arcade. I spoke to the team at Clap Hanz then about the game, working with Apple, the developer's first release outside PlayStation, and more.

toucharcade.com

That's PR fluff and general politeness.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That's PR fluff and general politeness.

So you don't like that their is a source, so you want to keep assuming that you're right...

 

[bender]

So you don't like that their is a source, so you want to keep assuming that you're right...

It's fine that their is a source but it really doesn't tell you anything about what happened between Sony and ClapHanz. In PR, it's easy to answer questions without answering questions. If that's me "assuming I'm right", so be it. Don't take things so personally, duder.

 

[nial]

I said they might shut down London Studios and you said they wouldn't shut down a department, so I cited Japan Studio.

I said this.

I'm not sure if SIEE would be comfortable with shutting down its internal development operations

Sorry if I wasn't being too clear, but what I meant is that I don't see them shutting down London Studio without having a new studio department as a replacement (so that they're keeping their internal development operations going).

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It's fine that their is a source but it really doesn't tell you anything about what happened between Sony and ClapHanz. In PR, it's easy to answer questions without answering questions. If that's me "assuming I'm right", so be it. Don't take things so personally, duder.

Why did you even ask for a source if you weren't going to accept it.

Tells me a lot about you.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I said this.

Sorry if I wasn't being too clear, but what I meant is that I don't see them shutting down London Studio without having a new studio department as a replacement (so that they're keeping their internal development operations going).

Not sure what they would be replacing. London Studios really hasn't done much of anything in years.

 

[bender]

Why did you even ask for a source if you weren't going to accept it.

Tells me a lot about you.

Because I wanted to read what you were referencing. I read it and took it for what is worth.

And what does that tell you about me, pray tell?

 

[nial]

Not sure what they would be replacing. London Studios really hasn't done much of anything in years.

Well, they went from VR development to GaaS, so I wasn't expecting much of them being shown anytime soon. Especially with Bungie's live service center of whatever that most likely slowed down everything.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Remember Shawn Layden?

He has been warning them for years.

Iirc the idea to bring Playstation games to PC was his.

He also said he thinks Sony will never bring their games to PC day 1.