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King Dazzar
Member
Yeah I'm not on board with the hand holding bit. I welcome the superb accessibility options that now seem to be coming as standard. Much is up to the player how to customise the experience. I'm OK with that.
As for the genre part, I'd love some love shown back to fps single player, like Killzone & Resistance. So maybe we have some common ground with that. And I do miss stuff like MotorStorm.
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Lumpyoatmeal
Member
Killzone and Resistance don’t do anything for me, King Dazzar. When I want to get on my Playstation and play some games I’m looking for shit like Bushido Blade, Twisted Metal, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, Iron Man X-O Manowar, Castlevania, Megaman, Luminees, Zone of the enders, and the list goes on man. This is the shit that gets me exicted not Killzone and Last of Us, those games are absolute ass to me.
King Dazzar
Member
I used to love Twisted Metal, but the others aren't really my bag. Do you not have at least some of that being covered by indie and other publishers? Its not my area, but theres been a lot of pixelated nostalgia JRPGS I've noticed of late. But like I say, there are old franchises I do miss for sure. Even if they aren't the same as yours. I get your point. If we go back in time, I'd be spoilt for racing with Ridge Racer, Destruction Derby, MotorStorm etc. Definitely some stuff been lost on the way. But for me, thankfully, I've gained too.
jakinov
Member
How were they a trendsetter? And how were they not a follower before? Sony has always followed industry trends and there's nothing wrong with it. They have a history of tacking-on multiplayer modes when everyone else was doing, and then slapping on online-passes to counter used games sales when everyone else was doing. Then they started adding microtransactions to their multiplayer games when everybody else was doing it. Their games sold pretty well before this generation but I would argue they are the result of following trends, iterating on well-received ideas and executing well that lead to that success. Many of their games heavily featured concepts that were popularized from series Arkham games, Assassins Creed and Dark Souls.
Games do not need to be nearly as popular as COD or Fortnite to be successful. The reason companies like live service games is making a small fraction of what fornite makes is really good money compare to most single player projects but also because it stabilizes the finances of the business. Companies do not want to spend 5 years making very little money to then maybe make all that money spent the last 5 years back. There are lots of live service games that have generated billions in revenue in the last few years, in order to just make one billion in revenue from a $70 game you must sell at least 15M copies at full price. Live services is not about chasing a unicorn it's about going after what is a much more lucrative bigger market in a business model that is less volatile. The games aren't just making way more money they are enjoyed by a much broader audience. We're talking tens or even some cases hundreds of millions of monthly actively users for some of these games.
I would not worry about Sony on the traditional single player games front because they still continue to have studios working on the kinds of games you like, the reason the output is lower not necessarily because of their investment in live service games but due to longer development times. You could argue though that they could invest into expanding their means of producing single player games instead of live service games
diffusionx
Gold Member
Legend of Dragoon was a very high budget game when they actually made it.
mayham2199
Member
Well if we're only looking at games then yes they are still doing great. I have to many games to play right now. Also it 100% matters how much money Sony or MS make and the issues going on with MS right now should be the #1 sign of that.
I don't want to own a Sony console while at the same time wondering if I should even continue investing in the system and if it will go away. This happened to me after spending $600 on the dreamcast and games. So yes I worry about how much Sony is making.
Lumpyoatmeal
Member
See the minute you tell me something is indie I'm going to actively go out of my way to not play it, I come from a whole different time as a gamer. This is my problem with Playstation, somewhere around the time with the Playstation 2 I feel that Sony from a game development pov on console got left behind (I want to be clear, this is coming from someone who was actually in the environment back then). Back then however Sony had this SOE team on the PC that had they hands in games that are pillars until this very day that don't get the credit that they deserve for how critically important this body of work was for gaming, and what's crazy is the DNA for the top games in the world today stems from these guys and their work. Anyway back to Playstation, I personally believe Sony recognize the problem and were making changes, after the PS2 you started to see the machine push titles like Uncharted, Killzone 2 ect. and when I played these games for myself they never solved the problem and to make it worst moving foward they double down on this on-rail cinematic experience and stripped all they multiplayer components out of their titles.
I can't have this conversation with a Playstation fan today because most of them really got into videogames starting with games like Uncharted and Killzone 2 on the PS3, to them these are the best games ever made.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Yeah I'm saying make it a medium budget series now. Just throw out some different games instead of the same few ips.
Like concord didn't have to a super high budget game and they could have failed much sooner.
Truth hurts. It’s ok.
Shadowstar39
Member
Sony in the PS1 generation was all 3rd party support, that was basically it. They bought a bunch of studios and those became 1st party, mainly 989 studios for sports games and psygnosis, bend and a few others so you had some 1st party but it wasn't everything. Outside of twisted metal, gt, syphon filter, cool boarders, medieval, legend of dragoon, wild arms, Loaded wipeout, jetmoto, there wasn't much 1st party.
What you had on ps1 was killer 3rd party support and 3rd party exclusives in the droves due to n64 shitting the bed with its lack of cd-rom. The thing is PS1 became the 3rd party powerhouse with action adventure, Horror, and JRPGs.
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Legacy of Kain, Silent Hill, Gex, Spyro, Crash (insomniac and naughty dog were not 1st party yet), FF7-9, tactics, Suikoden , Castlevania SOTN, Parasite Eve, Vandel Hearts, Vagrant Story, Grandia, Lunar, Legend of Legia, Azure Dreams, DQ7, SF alfpha, MK trilogy, Tekken 1-3, etc... Plus you had pc ports like Diablo and Civilization on that system.
I mention this as what Sony is lacking now is jrpgs, and 3rd party support. Yes we have them but they trickle in. Not saying xbox is better, in fact it's way worse, the thing is the switch is killing it, in terms of 1st and 3rd party support. I swear Nintendo is bringing in 10x the games the "HD Twins" do. They also respect their legacy where as both Sony and MS do not. MS is too busy delisting old games and turning off servers, while Sony is busy chasing "modern audiences and gaas, meanwhile it has a legacy of great 1st and 3rd party games collecting dust. Games that were already digital on ps3/psp/vita mind you. All they have to do is flick a switch and classics would be released.
The problem is, for me. Sony doesn't care about people like me. I am a 40 something dude, that is the antesithis to the "modern audience" they don't want me spending money. If they did they would of never kicked the creator of days gone to the curb and sided with the mob. They would be making Days gone 2, Uncharted 5, (wtih Nathan not some lesbian daughter), Infamous collection, Resistance, Killzone, motorstorm, Socom, New gravity rush game, they would have Jaffe (love em or hate him), making a new action series. They would of propped up studio Japan instead of shuttering. Claphandz would be making hot shots 6 , instead of mobile titles. They would of bought out Konami or their sitting ip so we can get new Castlevania and Silent hill games. They would be working with Square for new jrpgs like Nintendo currently does. They don't care, they stopped caring about it after they killed the vita. I saw a shift in coverage. When they killed qore, and home and the ps3 adverts, it was all aimed at people like me, now its aimed at who? Who are these games for? Gen Z? Maybe, but going by concord sales, doesn't look like it.
Its ok, I have my ps5 that mainly plays old ps4 games and the occasional 3rd party release (dragons dogma 2, robocop). I have my pc and switch, for everything else (oh and xbox, but I won't mention them as they are worse right now).
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bitbydeath
Member
Just correcting what was wrong.
Dorfdad
Gold Member
Don’t believe that is the case and for every console and developer it’s the same games now take so long to make and our collective gaming tastes changing so fast so many projects that would have been good had the released in that window things could have been different. Chasing a trend which lasts 1-2 years where games take 3-4 is a bad decision unless you have something really unique and solid not “me too” games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes, it's been bad. But they are still doing ALOT of great things. And you can see it in the revenues and profits of Playstation.
Dorfdad
Gold Member
This I believe developers think of a game isn’t 40+ hours people won’t buy them. Some games never to remove a lot of that and focus on the core stuff at 20hours!
yurinka
Member
Nah, that's bullshit.
Sony was already making GaaS and multiplayer games more than a decade ago. They simply decided to make more and better GaaS MP games because over a decade the percentage of game revenue that comes from addons kept increasing and now represents the majority even in console and because most top grossing and top played games since over a decade are GaaS MP games.
In the long term would be suicidal for any big publisher to be stuck in single player, non-GaaS.
This is not being a trend "trend chaser", it's having common sense and being responsable keeping sustainable the financials of a multibillion corporation. They invest hundreds of millions on each AAA so have to be careful and to play it relatively safe because money doesn't grow in trees.
The amount of 1st (which includes 2nd) party games under development, plus the amount of 3rd party (which includes AAA, AA and indie) exclusives is higher than ever before. Plus they cover basically all console gaming genres and include many unique, innovative and bizarre concepts. Look at Death Stranding, Dreams, Fall Guys, Stray, Genshin Impact, Stellar Blade, etc specially before their release as console exclusive.
And btw half of these 1st party games under development are new IP.
The recent Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing or Splatoon games also are GaaS. Plus their F2P stuff and mobile games.
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Sorcerer
Member
Isn't chasing Gaas inherently flawed? I mean in order for a Gaas game to be successful, you have to ween the players of your older Gaas game onto the new Gaas game. I can't imagine any single individual has the time to invest into all these types of games. You have to pick and choose I imagine.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I have read the responses in this thread and my heart has been warmed. Many people are waking up.
yurinka
Member
No, it's common sense because it's where the majority of the player userbase and gaming revenue is.
Nobody expects players to be playing all GaaS games. In the same game that nobody expects players to be playing all non-GaaS games.
EA FC, CoD, Gran Turismo 7, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Fortnite, Overwatch, Street Fighter 6, Rocket League, ZZZ, MLB, NBA2K, Heartstone, GTA Online, World of Warcraft, Helldivers 2, Candy Crash or Clash Royale to name a few are all GaaS and each one has their own different audience and niche.
Only a small portion of games compete with each other for each player type/group/niche, independently if they are GaaS or not. Like in non-GaaS games, some GaaS players play multiple games at the same time or focus only in one. Some play only one genre type, other ones play multiple. All get tired of one game and move to other one after some time.
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Sorcerer
Member
Thanks for your reply and clarification. Not being a player of these types of games. I thought that in order for the game to be successful it had to have a huge userbase on all the time or it was considered a flop or dead.
I was thinking not everything can be Fortnight, and for a single developer, making multiple Gass games would equal cannibalization.
yurinka
Member
Yes, like in non-GaaS titles or in any other business the more customers you have and the more money you get from them, more successful your business is.
The definition of success may vary for each company/project, but often is to become profitable: when your revenue is bigger than the costs.
Like in any market, not everybody can't be winner of the race but everybody competes to get the bigger slice of the pie they can.
Regarding cannibalization, there are many player types with very different preferences. Even inside genres. Some prefer racing games, other prefer shooters. Some prefer narrative, others prefer action. Some prefer chill walk in the park experiences other ones prefer hardcore and difficult challenges. Some prefer to play alone, some prefer to play with other people. Some prefer coop, others competitive. Some prefer sci-fi, others prefer medieval fantasy. Some prefer first person, others prefer 3rd person. Some prefer white comedy, other ones prefer dark horror. Some prefer cartoonish artstyle, other ones prefer realistic. And the lists goes on and on.
It's impossible to please everybody. A game (even Fortnite, GTAV, Minecraft etc) will normally appeal only or mainly the subset of players who prefer one of the two options in each one the choices I mentioned (there are way more choices, and normally more options per choice).
Meaning, when trying to replicate the succes of a top hit -or being more realistic, because nobody thinks their next game will be the next Fortnite/GTA/Minecraft/etc- when entering a very successful genre or subgenre there's a lot of room to differentiate your game from the other ones there, by appealing the players who prefer other things in some, even if only a few of these choices.
The thing is, as investor/publisher you have to properly evalate the amount of players that there are there are in the subset of potential customers you did choose as your target user, and if your game will be appealing enough for them to the point of getting them on board. Some might be "stolen" from that competitor but others won't. But you have to gather enough to make the revenue you need.
There are ways to estimate the population of each niche and target user, or the potential revenue window of a game. Or even the percentage of players of game A that would jump to game B. But there are no Coca-Cola formula or crystall balls. And preferences change over time, even in the 5-9 years that nowadays AAA take to be made. And the more different and unique your game is, so the less reference games whose numbers you have to reseach and examine, the more difficult will be to know if the game will be successful or not.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
I just hope they are good. Unfortunately Forbidden West, Spider-Man 2 and GOW Ragnarok are just inferior rehashes of their previous games.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
For a company that has the most "disastrous" strategy, they somehow seem to release the best games so far this year which would otherwise be completely barren without them
RodriGames40
Member
Another doom thread? I just got my account approved three days ago and I've already seen two of these. Chill out.
RickMasters
Member
They are coasting off yesterdays victory’s and good will……
We bout to see how far that good will goes though……
I hope we can revisit this thread in a few years ……
We bout to see how far that good will goes though……
I hope we can revisit this thread in a few years ……
RickMasters
Member
And how many of those games did they make? Most of their noteworthy games this year were money hats from third party devs…. Stop with the capping bro
yurinka
Member
Sony broke their fastest selling Sony / PS console exclusive game ever with games released in 2020 (TLOU2), 2022 (GoWR), 2023 (Spider-Man 2) and 2024 (Helldivers 2). Super disastrous.
Graph showing how "disastrous" they are now, specially when compared to PS3:
Regarding their first party 2024 games:
I'm pretty sure Helldivers 2, Stellar Blade and Astro Bot will be for me personally top 5/10 GOTY contenders.
Graph showing how "disastrous" they are now, specially when compared to PS3:
Regarding their first party 2024 games:
- TLOU2 Remastered
- Helldivers 2
- MLB
- Stellar Blade
- Rise of the Ronin
- Destiny 2 The Final Shape
- Concord
- Astro Bot
- Until Dawn remake
- Lego Horizon
- Lost Soul Aside
- Convallaria
- Plus late PC ports of HFW, GoT and GoWR
I'm pretty sure Helldivers 2, Stellar Blade and Astro Bot will be for me personally top 5/10 GOTY contenders.
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RickMasters
Member
Yeah….. one day we need to have a conversation about what games are generating that money and how many of them are not Sony developed Sony games …… have at it with that guy today though. I’m logging off in a bit
RickMasters
Member
And yet they over their crying about they need GAAS money to grow …. Who’s right? You or them?Graph showing how "disastrous" they are now, specially when compared to PS3:
Sony broke their fastest selling Sony / PS console exclusive game ever with games released in 2020 (TLOU2), 2022 (GoWR), 2023 (Spider-Man 2) and 2024 (Helldivers 2).
Super disastrous.
How is it a luck buy when they own the IP and it's a sequel to a game they developed? Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Guerilla, Bend, and Sucker Punch also developed PlayStation games before they were acquired but those don't come with caveats for some reason.
AngelMuffin
Member
How is it not going well if they’re making more money than ever?
tmlDan
Member
I think the key difference between their current model and the GAAS added model is that they get high revenue from GAAS and less overall spend.
Thats why they want that golden goose despite the growth. Their profit margins are rather thin.
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RickMasters
Member
I think that’s where a lot of their cash is coming from. they have sold the most consoles… have the most casuals as a resul who lets be honest are the ones buying this shit. All the skins and DLC etc.
That’s why they were crying to the CMA about the ABK deal…. All while putting out a bunch of shitty gass games themselves. That’s where the money is these days. Not in AAA.
tmlDan
Member
Ultimately its about stability and minimizing risk, once you have that stalwart GAAS where people buy shitty skins or someone who gacha gambles you can rest easy that it will largely keep flowing money in rather than a triple A game that may not hit. There's always a chance they fail, its hard making new IP's.
The ABK deal closed in October of 2023 and by that time Sony hadn't released a single GaaS title that was a part of their initiative. They may have announced a few, but they weren't released. The first one was Helldivers 2 in February 2024 with the second one being Concord a few weeks ago. To that SIE has published 6 games with another 3 to be released before the end of the year.
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RickMasters
Member
Yeah….. expect a lot more concords from them…
You might get another TLOu remaster before you get something new from them. In the meantime….. Indiana jones and that new Sea of theives DLC looks fir and soon you might even get to play FH5 on PS5 bro! You will love it more than any racing game you ever played on PS5…. Just don’t ever expect to beat me. I’m too season on forza horizon
Don’t worry bout Sony… Xbox got you covers even on PlayStation. What a time to be a gamer! I want cross play on everything!
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yurinka
Member
Both. They are more successful than ever but have to grow, specially in GaaS and outside PS.
Because the gaming market did stop growing during two years after 50 years of growth, and the console market didn't grow during decades, and AAA are making more and more expensive, and add-ons (so GaaS) represent the majority of the game revenue and game userbase, a percent that keeps growing every year, and most of the most played and top grossing games in many years have been GaaS.
So in the long term would be a financial suicide to keep limited to non-GaaS games, specially if they are only for their console. It's smarter what they are doing, to increase their investment in non-GaaS SP games, which are their most successful games now, but to increase their investment even more in GaaS and in growing outside their console (via accesories, PC, mobile, movies, tv shows, theme parks etc).
In the last year they released Spider-Man 2, TLOU2 Remastered, Helldivers 2 (very fun playing alone too), MLB, Stellar Blade, Rise of the Ronin. Plus PC ports of HFW and GoT. Plus some stuff more I must be forgetting.
And Astro Bot is almost here.
Yes, they made GaaS like Everquest, DC Universe Online, Little Big Planet, Dreams, PS Home, Gran Turismo Sport, Gran Turismo 7, MLB, Helldivers 2 and Destiny 2 and more I may forget.
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So have they released a bunch of GaaS or not because saying they've released a bunch when it's only 2 is disingenuous and straight up bullshit. Even your timeline is fucked. Also for a Concord they have the 12+ million selling Helldivers 2 so...
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nial
Member
Unironically, where they belong.
Everyone can play lists as well: Returnal, Stellar Blade, Astro Bot, Rise of the Ronin, Gran Turismo 7, Sackboy: A Big Adventure, Lego Horizon Adventures, Helldivers 2, Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, etc.
Also, the fact that you mentioned an actual non-Sony game like Pixeljunk Shooter (published by Q-Games), and then had the nerve to say this:
Edit: LocoRoco on PS3? Come on, now.
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Bombolone
Gold Member
I would love for Playstation to take this and brand it. Exactly what you described. Great lower budget games like the ones of old, but made with todays technology, insight, experience and knowledge.
Get good games out the door quicker between blockbusters. Also, as they are less expensive experiences you could have young developers learning and working with industry veterans to foster some good growth. Have some strong leads and directors and allow young talent to help and create.
I might sound like an idiot, but making Legend of Dragoon today. 1:1. Would take less time and money right? If the team that made it were told, "make it again". They would do it faster and cheaper I would expect.
It would be a good way to give your customers great quality games that don't have to look like Horizon or Death Stranding. Start training them to accept these AA experiences and maybe take the Graphics frenzy down a bit. It would healthy for the industry and consumers especially to understand that these Blockbusters every 6 - 7 years... isn't sustainable.
'Playtendo'
RickMasters
Member
Fair enough. But if you don’t think they are scrambling like everybody figuring out what happens in a post console world I think some of you will be shocked next gen. I could be wrong but just based on what I’m seeing….. the whole ‘ sell a console to sell exclusives’ literally only applies to people born before 00s. MS and Sony both see it too. MS are just ( as usual) jumping the gun….. like they did with Their emphasis on digital games ( but let’s be honest even that was just a way to cut out the middle man…. The game stores…. And even devs were all for that)
We all have a out lreferences of platform and even way of buying games ( I like digital but o know a lot of people round here prefer physical and that’s cool, too….. but it’s not where the industry is going) I think we all have to be able to step back from the optics of what we would like our platforms of choice to be and look at what the industry is and where it’s going and jay these companies need to do to survive. Just based on that I’m gonna say MS/Xbox is in the strongest position for whate the industry goes next. I could be wrong but just based on trends and gaming habits of younger generations….. well…. It looks how it looks from here. I ai t gotta pick a face to set how I think it’s gonna go….
Raven117
Member
LBP (sort of/not really), dreams (a different situation. PS Home (not quite a GaaS), gran Turismos (both, again… not really… racing games with online components). Helldivers 2 (not a traditional Sony studio. Destiny 2 (not a traditional Sony studio)
Point being, the major Sony studios are really not chasing the GaaS. The ones that just have more online components, aren’t really GaaS
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Who cares? Helldivers 2 is their IP and their game, they funded it for 8 years and believed in the project. It's technically like a second party type project but they own the IP.
AstroBot is a first party game fully.
Both are GOTY contenders
Those two alone are way better than the competition. And I don't see why things like Stellar Blade, FF7R, or Rise of the Ronin don't count. They had to go get those games.
yurinka
Member
They are all live service games planned to get periodical support after launch, so they are all GaaS.
Regarding Helldivers 2, it's a Sony IP game funded by Sony where the lead dev studio represents under 10% of the people who worked on the game. Which includes multiple Sony teams and external outsourcing teams managed -like Arrowhhead- by XDEV and PS Studios management team.
As we know Bungie, Polyphony, Guerrilla, Bend, XDEV, Firewalk, Haven, the Bungie spinoff inside PS Studios, the ex-Deviations secret team are working right now on GaaS. And I may forget somebody else.
But yes, the majority of the first party games released -or under development- aren't GaaS.
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Raven117
Member
If it’s Guerrilla and Bend (especially gurerilla) that counts as a traditional Sony studio making a GaaS. The rest, in my mind. Don’t count.
yurinka
Member
Polyphony and Bend have been making first party games since the PS1. XDEV was created 20 years ago. Aren't they traditional enough?