Support NeoGAF

[Idde]

That's cool if it was unintentional. There are some posters who kind of freely flow between "Jews" "Zionists" and "Israelis," so I thought I'd point it out, especially since the subject of this thread is an American Jew (who admittedly is probably a Zionist, although it doesn't seem to be a focus of his public image or art).

I'm going against the subject of the thread, something I've been thinking quite a bit about. For most people it's hard to see the difference between Jew, Israeli and Zionist. It mostly gets lumped together under Jew. This is just human nature. If you don;t think a lot about something, people generalize and stereotype. We shouldn't, but it happens. And this is where Netanyahu is doing all Jews all over the world a huge disservice. The Israeli government is treating Palestine Muslims like shit, in front of the entire world.

Now here in the Netherlands we have quite a few Moroccan Muslims. For completely logical reasons they have difficulty identifying with Western culture. So they go back to their Muslim culture, their roots. Towards a culture that unites them with other people, something that gives them an identity. For them their homeland isn't just Morocco, it's the entire Muslim culture, their Muslim brothers.

And the Muslim country that's under constant attack is the Palestinian people, and how they are treated by Israeli government. Young people need something to rebel against, something to unify against. In this case that could be Israel. But in a sort of anger people don't think clearly. I blame Israeli government for the mistreatment of Palestinian Jews, people looking for an identity blame an entire other group. Jewish people. I'm not saying it's right, but it makes sense, and it happens.

Netanyahu should realize this. His priority should be with his citizens, and with the Jewish people. Of course people here in Europe shouldn't generalize, but EVERYBODY does that. And he should take that into account. I'm not saying it's right, but it's something that happens. He should think of that when you're the leader of a country.

I don't think this is victim blaming. Netanyahu isn't the victim. Normal Israeli people, normal Jews are the victim. They're literal victims of antisemitism. Israel's current action are feeding into those feelings anti-semitism. And instead of seeing how Netanyahu is damaging the name of Jews all over the world, he uses antisemitism, the horrible past as a perverse shield against criticism.

Might be a bit of topic, sorry for the rant.

 

[Joel Was Right]

LOL

They didn't ask anything of anyone else.

Source?

 

[Quixzlizx]

I'm going against the subject of the thread, something I've been thinking quite a bit about. For most people it's hard to see the difference between Jew, Israeli and Zionist. It mostly gets lumped together under Jew. This is just human nature. If you don;t think a lot about something, people generalize and stereotype. We shouldn't, but it happens. And this is where Netanyahu is doing all Jews all over the world a huge disservice. The Israeli government is treating Palestine Muslims like shit, in front of the entire world.

Now here in the Netherlands we have quite a few Moroccan Muslims. For completely logical reasons they have difficulty identifying with Western culture. So they go back to their Muslim culture, their roots. Towards a culture that unites them with other people, something that gives them an identity. For them their homeland isn't just Morocco, it's the entire Muslim culture, their Muslim brothers.

And the Muslim country that's under constant attack is the Palestinian people, and how they are treated by Israeli government. Young people need something to rebel against, something to unify against. In this case that could be Israel. But in a sort of anger people don't think clearly. I blame Israeli government for the mistreatment of Palestinian Jews, people looking for an identity blame an entire other group. Jewish people. I'm not saying it's right, but it makes sense, and it happens.

Netanyahu should realize this. His priority should be with his citizens, and with the Jewish people. Of course people here in Europe shouldn't generalize, but EVERYBODY does that. And he should take that into account. I'm not saying it's right, but it's something that happens. He should think of that when you're the leader of a country.

I don't think this is victim blaming. Netanyahu isn't the victim. Normal Israeli people, normal Jews are the victim. They're literal victims of antisemitism. Israel's current action are feeding into those feelings anti-semitism. And instead of seeing how Netanyahu is damaging the name of Jews all over the world, he uses antisemitism, the horrible past as a perverse shield against criticism.

Might be a bit of topic, sorry for the rant.

My original point was that Netanyahu is only damaging the name of Jews all over the world in the eyes of people who are already anti-semites. Since people who aren't anti-semites don't consider Netanyahu the Jewish pope. He's just a slimy right-wing politician who used xenophobia and racism to win a political election. This would be like saying that people understandably hate Christians all over the world more because George W Bush decided to invade Iraq. Maybe you should rethink the way you are viewing this issue, since it seems you aren't seeing how your mindset is "problematic."

 

[Mael]

I'm going against the subject of the thread, something I've been thinking quite a bit about. For most people it's hard to see the difference between Jew, Israeli and Zionist. It mostly gets lumped together under Jew. This is just human nature. If you don;t think a lot about something, people generalize and stereotype. We shouldn't, but it happens. And this is where Netanyahu is doing all Jews all over the world a huge disservice. The Israeli government is treating Palestine Muslims like shit, in front of the entire world.

Now here in the Netherlands we have quite a few Moroccan Muslims. For completely logical reasons they have difficulty identifying with Western culture. So they go back to their Muslim culture, their roots. Towards a culture that unites them with other people, something that gives them an identity. For them their homeland isn't just Morocco, it's the entire Muslim culture, their Muslim brothers.

And the Muslim country that's under constant attack is the Palestinian people, and how they are treated by Israeli government. Young people need something to rebel against, something to unify against. In this case that could be Israel. But in a sort of anger people don't think clearly. I blame Israeli government for the mistreatment of Palestinian Jews, people looking for an identity blame an entire other group. Jewish people. I'm not saying it's right, but it makes sense, and it happens.

Netanyahu should realize this. His priority should be with his citizens, and with the Jewish people. Of course people here in Europe shouldn't generalize, but EVERYBODY does that. And he should take that into account. I'm not saying it's right, but it's something that happens. He should think of that when you're the leader of a country.

I don't think this is victim blaming. Netanyahu isn't the victim. Normal Israeli people, normal Jews are the victim. They're literal victims of antisemitism. Israel's current action are feeding into those feelings anti-semitism. And instead of seeing how Netanyahu is damaging the name of Jews all over the world, he uses antisemitism, the horrible past as a perverse shield against criticism.

Might be a bit of topic, sorry for the rant.

I can't believe people are dumb enough to think that Jewish religion == Israel as it is today.
Victims of antisemtism in Europe is most certainly Jews more than Israel citizen.
I literally can't believe that confusion is possible, you can have people blaming Jews for Israel but that's just thinly veiled antisemitism.
Everyone understand what is said.

 

[Goliath]

I'm going against the subject of the thread, something I've been thinking quite a bit about. For most people it's hard to see the difference between Jew, Israeli and Zionist. It mostly gets lumped together under Jew. This is just human nature. If you don;t think a lot about something, people generalize and stereotype. We shouldn't, but it happens. And this is where Netanyahu is doing all Jews all over the world a huge disservice. The Israeli government is treating Palestine Muslims like shit, in front of the entire world.

Now here in the Netherlands we have quite a few Moroccan Muslims. For completely logical reasons they have difficulty identifying with Western culture. So they go back to their Muslim culture, their roots. Towards a culture that unites them with other people, something that gives them an identity. For them their homeland isn't just Morocco, it's the entire Muslim culture, their Muslim brothers.

And the Muslim country that's under constant attack is the Palestinian people, and how they are treated by Israeli government. Young people need something to rebel against, something to unify against. In this case that could be Israel. But in a sort of anger people don't think clearly. I blame Israeli government for the mistreatment of Palestinian Jews, people looking for an identity blame an entire other group. Jewish people. I'm not saying it's right, but it makes sense, and it happens.

Netanyahu should realize this. His priority should be with his citizens, and with the Jewish people. Of course people here in Europe shouldn't generalize, but EVERYBODY does that. And he should take that into account. I'm not saying it's right, but it's something that happens. He should think of that when you're the leader of a country.

I don't think this is victim blaming. Netanyahu isn't the victim. Normal Israeli people, normal Jews are the victim. They're literal victims of antisemitism. Israel's current action are feeding into those feelings anti-semitism. And instead of seeing how Netanyahu is damaging the name of Jews all over the world, he uses antisemitism, the horrible past as a perverse shield against criticism.

Might be a bit of topic, sorry for the rant.

I don't agree. You keep saying your not justifying all this anti Semitism but you kind of are. Israel's actions aren't the reason some of these people attack Israel. Israel has been attacked both physically and politically since it's inception. Many people didn't want a country for Jews and Europe was not a place were many Jews wanted to come back to after WWII.

If people are associating Jew with Zionist and Israeli it's because they are ignorant and looking for a reason to bash Jewish people. Jews can be Jewish and appreciate the existence of Israel without supporting what is being done in West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel's actions aren't feeding into anti-Semitism because anti-Semites don't need a reason to hate Jews and have tried to use the legitimate complaints about Palestinian treatment to once again rally against the establishment of Israel.

 

[Goliath]

I can't believe people are dumb enough to think that Jewish religion == Israel as it is today.
Victims of antisemtism in Europe is most certainly Jews more than Israel citizen.
I literally can't believe that confusion is possible, you can have people blaming Jews for Israel but that's just thinly veiled antisemitism.
Everyone understand what is said.

Let's be real here. The people that are attacking Jews and Temples in Europe don't care about Arab Muslims in Palestine.

 

[Mael]

Let's be real here. The people that are attacking Jews and Temples in Europe don't care about Arab Muslims in Palestine.

Exactly.
And even worse people that usually attack Israel and lump Jewish religion with it absolutely do not care about Arab Muslims in Palestine.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So is he, or is he not pro Zionist? If he is and has made comments I'm having a hard time giving a shit.

Same.

 

[collige]

I was under the assumption that marriage was unfortunately managed by religious communities and that interfaith marriage (or same sex) was only recognised if entered abroad. Which is bullshit but hardly discriminating specifically towards Arabs... Interested in any relevant link you might have on the subject.

/Offtopic

That's what I was referring to. As far as I understand it, marriages are all determined by a council of the party's faith and civil licenses are only granted if both people have officially declared themselves as atheists. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of an Orthodox council if one party is Jewish (regardless of their denomination). Since Orthodox Judaism doesn't allow interfaith marriages, people get fucked over. At best, it's "separate but kind of equal" state of affairs.

 

[Valhelm]

So is he, or is he not pro Zionist? If he is and has made comments I'm having a hard time giving a shit.

If by Zionist you mean, "believes Israel should continue to exist as a country", then yes, he is a Zionist. I'm very bothered by how "Zionism" has become a controversial position to hold among the far right and the far left.

 

[Joel Was Right]

The Spanish BDS have said this in response:

1. Some examples of Matisyahu’s incitement against Palestinians include:
2. a. Support for the Israeli occupation army’s massacres and war crimes against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. In 2007, Matisyahu supported a fundraiser for the Israeli army, during its brutal siege of Gaza and only months after the bloody Israeli military assault on Lebanon, which killed over one thousand civilians and devastated Lebanese infrastructure.
3. b. In a 2010 interview, Matisyahu justified Israel’s attack and murder of members of an aid flotilla in international waters as they were on their way to deliver critically needed humanitarian supplies to the besieged Palestinians in Gaza. A subsequent UN Human Rights Council investigation report found Israel guilty of violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law.
4. c. Matisyahu played this year at the pro-war, pro-occupation Israel lobby group AIPAC policy conference.
5. d. In his personal writings, Matisyahu has praised Israeli settlers stealing Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank and making the lives of Palestinians a living hell.
6. e. Matisyahu’s lyricist, Ephraim Rosenstien, is himself a settler in an illegal West Bank colony. Rosenstein is associated with Honenu, an Israeli legal organization that defends settler terrorists who violently attack Palestinians to push them off their lands.
7. In light of this consistent evidence, festival organizers recognized Matisyahu’s incitement to racial hatred and defense of war crimes and attempted dialogue with him to clarity whether he would distance himself from this hateful record. Matisyahu refused to retract his hateful views and acknowledge equal human rights for Palestinians and so his invitation was rescinded as they clashed with the festival’s values.
8. While the media has portrayed this effort as part of the global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, we wish to make clear that our efforts are outside the remit of the cultural boycott of Israel as per the guidelines issued by the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI). BDS calls for boycotts against Israeli institutions that are complicit in Israel’s violations of international law, not against individuals. Unlike the cultural boycott movement against apartheid South Africa, the Palestinian-led BDS movement does not call for boycotting individual artists, academics, etc.
9. The BDS movement, which we proudly support, is an inclusive, non-sectarian human rights movement that upholds the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and categorically rejects all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism. Jewish supporters of BDS in the US, Israel, Britain and elsewhere play a key role in the movement’s struggle for freedom, justice and equality.
10. As citizens of conscience who also abhor all forms of racism and racist incitement, our call for excluding Matisyahu’s performance is a valid “common sense” boycott against an artist who refuses to disavow his shameful racial incitement and hateful messages. Matisyahu’s religious or ethnic identity is entirely irrelevant to our call for excluding his performance.
11. Finally we would like to thank the courageous and principled step taken by the organizers of Rototom Sunsplash in canceling Matisyahu’s performance and showing in deeds that they stand true to the festival’s values of peace, equality, human rights and social justice for all. We look forward to successful festivals in the years ahead.

Source

I can't verify their more incendiary claims of inciting racial hatred on his part.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If by Zionist you mean, "believes Israel should continue to exist as a country", then yes, he is a Zionist. I'm very bothered by how "Zionism" has become a controversial position to hold among the far right and the far left.

He's also made some rather explicit and implicit, anti-Palestine comments.

Dude has spoke out before but always immediately hides behind but I'm just a musician, a lover not a fighter, which is crap.

 

[Goliath]

If by Zionist you mean, "believes Israel should continue to exist as a country", then yes, he is a Zionist. I'm very bothered by how "Zionism" has become a controversial position to hold among the far right and the far left.

I agree with you post. It seems like Zionism to some means the "continued expansion of Israel across Palestine". I was always under the impression that Zionism was the desire of the creation of Israel and after Israel's creation, the support of Israel's creation.

In a world where the criticisms of Israel range from complaints about it's treatment of Palestine to outright denying the Holocaust and the right for Israel to exist it's hard to see why or what people are complaining about Israel.

 

[BaronLundi]

Source?

Are you asking me to prove a negative fact? Read the official statements of Rototom festival:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153362968211743&__tn__=*s

Matisyahu's response:

Then Rototom's apology:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153366496516743&__tn__=*s

and make up your mind. I didn't see anyone contradict Matisyahu's statement on this matter. So I think we can safely assume what he said was true.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are you asking me to prove a negative fact? Read the official statements of Rototom festival:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153362968211743&__tn__=*s

Matisyahu's response:

Then Rototom's apology:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153366496516743&__tn__=*s
and make up your mind. I didn't see anyone contradict Matisyahu's statement on this matter. So I think we can safely assume what he said was true.

Except you know he has spoken out about it. Shared pro Israel anti Muslim stuff on his facebook (I'm literally looking at right now).

He can hide behind I'm just a musician but the dude has spoken out and his opinions are actually you know on record.

 

[Idde]

My original point was that Netanyahu is only damaging the name of Jews all over the world in the eyes of people who are already anti-semites. Since people who aren't anti-semites don't consider Netanyahu the Jewish pope. He's just a slimy right-wing politician who used xenophobia and racism to win a political election. This would be like saying that people understandably hate Christians all over the world more because George W Bush decided to invade Iraq. Maybe you should rethink the way you are viewing this issue, since it seems you aren't seeing how your mindset is "problematic."

I disagree. If people put no thought into things this is a very easy thought pattern to follow: Israel is a Jewish state. It's filled with Jewish people. Israel does this, so the Jewish people must approve of this. It's a complete logical fallacy, but that's the way people think. I don't approve of it, but that unfortunately doesn't make it less true. That doesn't mean I'm antisemitic, just means I'm human. And it's not about what Netanyahu does, it's about what "Israel" does.

I can't believe people are dumb enough to think that Jewish religion == Israel as it is today.
Victims of antisemtism in Europe is most certainly Jews more than Israel citizen.
I literally can't believe that confusion is possible, you can have people blaming Jews for Israel but that's just thinly veiled antisemitism.
Everyone understand what is said.

What I see here in Holland, in the big cities is definitely a conflation between Israeli actions and Jews all over. I'm not saying it's not anti semitism. And there is definitely antisemitism apart from the Palestine/Israel conflict, but the conflict certainly adds fuel to the fire. When the fighting between Israel and Palestine broke out last year I heard a LOT of Muslims talking about how they had to fight for the Muslim brothers. I walked by a rally in support of Palestine and the organizers had to emphasise that Israel =/= all Jewish people and that antisemitism would not be tolerated. You might not understand how Jewish/Israeli/Zionist could get mixed up, but it happens.

I don't agree. You keep saying your not justifying all this anti Semitism but you kind of are. Israel's actions aren't the reason some of these people attack Israel. Israel has been attacked both physically and politically since it's inception. Many people didn't want a country for Jews and Europe was not a place were many Jews wanted to come back to after WWII.

If people are associating Jew with Zionist and Israeli it's because they are ignorant and looking for a reason to bash Jewish people. Jews can be Jewish and appreciate the existence of Israel without supporting what is being done in West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel's actions aren't feeding into anti-Semitism because anti-Semites don't need a reason to hate Jews and have tried to use the legitimate complaints about Palestinian treatment to once again rally against the establishment of Israel.

Justifiying? No, God no. Explaining? Hopefully. (though so far it appears I'm doing a poor job at it )

About the second paragraph: I completely agree. Antisemitism is a thing, unfortunately. And people can be ignorant about Judaism/Zionism. But for one; ignorance doesn't automatically mean antisemitic. Two: ignorance can definitely lead to racism/antisemitism, and usually people don't need a reason for that. Another people, another country, another religion; being different is cause enough. Three; people who are already antisemitic will jump on the Palestinian occasion. I agree on that point.

But when you have ignorant people (who are still just ignorant), who identify with their Muslim brothers, and who see how their Muslim brothers are killed/maimed/slaughtered... I can see how that can lead to generalized anti-semitism. Again, please understand, I'm not condoning any violence towards anyone, I'm looking for an explanation.

 

[BaronLundi]

I agree with you post. It seems like Zionism to some means the "continued expansion of Israel across Palestine". I was always under the impression that Zionism was the desire of the creation of Israel and after Israel's creation, the support of Israel's creation.

In a world where the criticisms of Israel range from complaints about it's treatment of Palestine to outright denying the Holocaust and the right for Israel to exist it's hard to see why or what people are complaining about Israel.

Amen. That's what it actually means despite successful efforts to twist the word into something else. Same strategy with the word "antisemitism".

I'm a 100% against Israel's expansion and for a Palestinian state. Yet still a zionist.

 

[Messofanego]

Would we hold ever Muslim to a forced statement on their views on Isis?

As a muslim, I would be glad to be forced to give a statement on Daesh/ISIS. In that they suck to the high heavens. If you're a muslim in support or wary about giving a position on ISIS or any other islamic terrorists that isn't that they absolutely suck, that's pretty suspicious and a possible dealbreaker.

 

[Valhelm]

He's also made some rather explicit and implicit, anti-Palestine comments.

Dude has spoke out before but always immediately hides behind but I'm just a musician, a lover not a fighter, which is crap.

Could you share some of his bigoted posts? You've mentioned these comments, but never posted them.

 

[Mael]

What I see here in Holland, in the big cities is definitely a conflation between Israeli actions and Jews all over. I'm not saying it's not anti semitism. And there is definitely antisemitism apart form the Palestine/Israel conflict, but the conflict certainly adds to the antisemitism. When the fighting between Israel and Palestine broke out last year I heard a LOT of Muslims talking about how they had to fight for the Muslim brothers. I walked by a rally in support of Palestine and the organizers had to emphasise that Israel =/= all Jewish people and that antisemitism would not be tolerated. You might not understand how Jewish/Israeli/Zionist could get mixed up, but it happens.

I'm not saying I don't think it ever happens, I'm saying that no one is fooled by that.
If you blame Jews for Israel's misdeads you're antisemitic and the way I see it most people that can't fucking shut up about Israel and have anything to say about its inception are not fooling anyone.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Could you share some of his bigoted posts? You've mentioned these comments, but never posted them.

For starters:

https://www.facebook.com/matisyahu/posts/10152647614159189

The article is typical Sam Harris anti-muslim crap

A list of other things has already been posted in this thread

Here's where the festival erred they shouldn't have asked him to sign anything or make any statements they should have just dropped him.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Are you asking me to prove a negative fact? Read the official statements of Rototom festival:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153362968211743&__tn__=*s

Matisyahu's response:

Then Rototom's apology:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...top_level_post_id.10153366496516743&__tn__=*s

I don't know how I can simplify this for you so let me try once more:

• I asked you if you thought the BDS would have pressured the organisers were he a Jewish sympathiser of Palestine. You said, "No".
• I then reiterated that irrespective of what other motives the BDS may have had, the heart of the matter of the issue they took to the organisers were his past remarks on Israel.
• You then stated that they had not held other performers to the same background check and thus the "issue" could not have been about remarks about Israel. That is what you allowed yourself and me to infer from the "fact" that they didn't ask anyone else about their past views on Israel.

Excellent point. Except, when I ask you how do you know no one else was looked into, you turn around and effectively shrug your shoulders, "how do you expect me to prove that?". None of the two links you've provided above give any statement indicating otherwise. In fact, Matisyahu himself doesn't know as he points out in his post.

The only person in this entire ordeal who knows who the BDS looked into is apparently you.

Why is this a point of contention?

Because if your assumption (it is nothing more than that) were true -- and I have no desire to dismiss it -- then it would prove that the BDS were using an emotive subject to simply humiliate and undermine the only Jewish performer at this festival solely because he was Jewish. This was your counter point to the official story. I'm dealing with specifics by highlighting what we do know for fact. The only thing I've garnered from your confusing posts is that a) you are suspicious of the real motives and b) you don't believe boycotting is ethical.

All in all, our last few exchanges have been an utter waste of time because you seem more interested in interjecting your own suspicions of the BDS group than responding to this specific case or the points I have highlighted.

and make up your mind. I didn't see anyone contradict Matisyahu's statement on this matter. So I think we can safely assume what he said was true.

Wtf are you talking about? Matisyahu post says nothing in regards to addressing the claims of the BDS or the public remarks he has made in the past about Israel. His post is absent a large piece of the context of this debate.

1. Organisers invite him.
2. BDS bring up his past and pressure them to drop him.
3. Organisers confront him and probably try to get him to dispel or disown those remarks to avoid bad PR. This would fit into his claim that tried to coerce him to make political statements. But he doesn't tell us the context.
4. He doesn't refer to whether or not those "political statements" were in anyway related to his own past "political statements" about the subject.
5. Without that context, we are left with the impression that a random Jew is forced to make a statement in favour of Palestine for no reason.

That's it. That is the entire scenario summarised.

 

[Idde]

I'm not saying I don't think it ever happens, I'm saying that no one is fooled by that.
If you blame Jews for Israel's misdeads you're antisemitic and the way I see it most people that can't fucking shut up about Israel and have anything to say about its inception are not fooling anyone.

Perhaps it's about fooling someone, perhaps it's not. Perhaps people who blame Jews for Israeli action are antisemitic, perhaps they;re committing a logical fallacy. I have a lot of things to say about Israels inception and its history. And I don't think I'm antisemitic. After all, what went wrong there hasn't got anything to do with Judaism.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Here's an article that cites his opinions

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/it-not-anti-semitic-boycott-matisyahu

Dude can claim all he wants that he just makes music but he has spoken up in the past and now he was being held accountable.

A sample

“Whether or not the ships should have been bringing aid to Gaza, those territorial waters belong to Israel – it’s internationally agreed,” he claimed in an interview with The Jewish Chronicle.

“Do you honestly believe that, if someone was in the English Channel, the British navy would do anything but blow the crap out of the boat, just blow it out of the water?” he added. “But still people are going to think Israel behaved horribly.”

“No other country,” Miller asserted “would put up with the crap that Israel does.”

 

[Onyar]

Miller was vocal in his support for Israel’s attack on the Gaza-bound flotilla in May 2010, which killed 10 people aboard the Mavi Marmara.

This dude can say shit, I hope no one believe him.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Perhaps it's about fooling someone, perhaps it's not. Perhaps people who blame Jews for Israeli action are antisemitic, perhaps they;re committing a logical fallacy. I have a lot of things to say about Israels inception and its history. And I don't think I'm antisemitic. After all, what went wrong there hasn't got anything to do with Judaism.

All racists are committing logical fallacies, because the world recognizes that racist arguments are bullshit from a logical perspective. It's really strange that you're using ignorance and intellectual laziness (the hallmark of every type of bigot) as some sort of defense for people with racist beliefs.

 

[Valhelm]

For starters:

https://www.facebook.com/matisyahu/posts/10152647614159189

The article is typical Sam Harris anti-muslim crap

A list of other things has already been posted in this thread

Here's where the festival erred they shouldn't have asked him to sign anything or make any statements they should have just dropped him.

enjoying sam harris is enough cause to ban somebody from any event tbh

 

[BaronLundi]

I don't know how I can simplify this for you so let me try once more:

Man you're just too much. It doesnt't matter what he thought/thinks or stated over the subject (although if he did make anti-muslim statements it would surely change my opinion of him). His opinion on Israel, the Pope or tipping within the context of a Reggae festival is irrelevant one way or another.

No other artist was asked to pass such a test. And I don't shrug it off, I just can't prove it, as I can't prove a negative fact. Nonetheless, as no one claimed that any other artist was asked anything on the subject, I will assume it to be true.

So I'll let you "simplify" the following over dozens of paragraphs if that tickles your fancy:

He was the only artist blackmailed into making a statement over the Israelo-palestinian conflict in order not to be cancelled.

He is not Israeli.

But he is Jewish.

The only or one of the few participating. Out of hundreds.

Because he refused to repent, retract his opinions or otherwise comment they singled him out over a political matter that he has ultimately zero control over.

Yup. That's it. And enough for me.

Edit: oh and one last thing. I do not have any suspicion over BDS. Their track record has long been past leaving any doubt about their methods and motives. I'm just sorry for the people who genuinely think they help Palestinians by supporting them. Cutting all dialogue with Israeli academics and artists who are one of the few remaining functionning bridges with palestinians will not make Israel's political landscape change for the better. And it sorely needs to change.

 

[Idde]

All racists are committing logical fallacies, because the world recognizes that racist arguments are bullshit from a logical perspective. It's really strange that you're using ignorance and intellectual laziness (the hallmark of every type of bigot) as some sort of defense for people with racist beliefs.

Probably all racists commit logical fallacies, but not everybody Who commits a logical fallacy is immediately a racist. Not when there's no negativity involved. When there is, it becomes bigotry. Everybody is ignorant about something. I don't know shit about Chinese culture, completely ignorant so I'd probably offend a lot of people. To counteract that I'd like to know what to do. To understand my own ignorance and improve on it. Which is also what I'm trying to do here. What causes ignorance? Or more specific, what follows the ignorance so it becomes bigotry and in turn even antisemitism? It's not a defence, it's an exploration, in order to understand and hopefully even change it.

 

[Joel Was Right]

• Matisyahu has political views that will likely draw him new criticism as well support in the future.
• BDS groups most likely racial profile names when they background check public figures.
• In an attempt to avoid bad PR, the festival organisers have drawn bad PR.

 

[Goliath]

Probably all racists commit logical fallacies, but not everybody Who commits a logical fallacy is immediately a racist. Not when there's no negativity involved. When there is, it becomes bigotry. Everybody is ignorant about something. I don't know shit about Chinese culture, completely ignorant so I'd probably offend a lot of people. To counteract that I'd like to know what to do. To understand my own ignorance and improve on it. Which is also what I'm trying to do here. What causes ignorance? Or more specific, what follows the ignorance so it becomes bigotry and in turn even antisemitism? It's not a defence, it's an exploration, in order to understand and hopefully even change it.

The difference between lack of knowledge ignorance and the ignorance displayed by racists and bigots alike is the lack of interest in trying to learn more the speed at which a person with little knowledge reacts when confronted with a situation about a topic they know little about.

There are many people who know little about Judiasm. That doesn't mean these same people will rally against Israel blaming all Jews. A normal ignorant person about a subject may ask questions that might be slightly offensive but in the spirit of learning. A racist or bigot feels they know all they need to know about a particular topic and doubles down even when faced with facts that proves them wrong.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

• BDS groups most likely racial profile names when they background check public figures.

What leads you to this conclusion? I personally remembered his shitty comments about the Flotilla and they came to mind as soon as I saw this story. What makes you think they were unaware of his comments and went digging to see if he had made any such comments, as opposed to them having knowledge about his shitty remarks before seeing that he'd been booked at the music festival?

 

[Mael]

Perhaps it's about fooling someone, perhaps it's not. Perhaps people who blame Jews for Israeli action are antisemitic, perhaps they;re committing a logical fallacy. I have a lot of things to say about Israels inception and its history. And I don't think I'm antisemitic. After all, what went wrong there hasn't got anything to do with Judaism.

I think that's the most important part of it.
However the perception of Judaism have a lot to do with the creation of Israel, it's an interesting subject but if you get any other view than the one an historian would use you tend to end up in logical fallacies and other claptraps.

Probably all racists commit logical fallacies, but not everybody Who commits a logical fallacy is immediately a racist. Not when there's no negativity involved. When there is, it becomes bigotry. Everybody is ignorant about something. I don't know shit about Chinese culture, completely ignorant so I'd probably offend a lot of people. To counteract that I'd like to know what to do. To understand my own ignorance and improve on it. Which is also what I'm trying to do here. What causes ignorance? Or more specific, what follows the ignorance so it becomes bigotry and in turn even antisemitism? It's not a defence, it's an exploration, in order to understand and hopefully even change it.

That may my personal experience but I have absolutely no patience in understanding racists and bigots.
I don't care if their feelings are getting hurt or even if they're fired or something.
I just want to interact as little as I can with that brand of stupidity.
That's actually a very big reason why I have absolutely nothing but contempt for the Left in France.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Man you're just too much. It doesnt't matter what he thought/thinks or stated over the subject (although if he did make anti-muslim statements it would surely change my opinion of him). His opinion on Israel, the Pope or tipping within the context of a Reggae festival is irrelevant one way or another.

No other artist was asked to pass such a test. And I don't shrug it off, I just can't prove it, as I can't prove a negative fact. Nonetheless, as no one claimed that any other artist was asked anything on the subject, I will assume it to be true.

He was the only artist blackmailed into making a statement over the Israelo-palestinian conflict in order not to be cancelled.

Because he refused to repent, retract his opinions or otherwise comment they singled him out over a political matter that he has ultimately zero control over.

"Zero control"

He is under fire for things that he, and only he, said. That people are trying to make it as if he's being attacked for being Jewish is ridiculous and offensive. He was the only person targeted because BDS groups recognized him as a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine figure and were against his involvement in the event. The comments he made should give pause to any reasonable people, even if he wasn't Jewish or Israeli.

Seriously, I can't even comprehend the inanity of people trying to make this out to be him being singled out when he was the only person to "fit the bill." He made anti-Palestinian comments in the past, why is it weird that he was the only person asked to disavow them?

 

[BaronLundi]

"Zero control"

He is under fire for things that he, and only he, said. That people are trying to make it as if he's being attacked for being Jewish is ridiculous and offensive. He was the only person targeted because BDS groups recognized him as a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine figure and were against his involvement in the ey vent. The comments he made should give pause to any reasonable people, even if he wasn't Jewish or Israeli.

Seriously, I can't even comprehend the inanity of people trying to make this out to be him being singled out when he was the only person to "fit the bill." He made anti-Palestinian comments in the past, why is it weird that he was the only person asked to disavow them?

You should comprehend that targeting non Israeli Jews might rightfully raise eyebrows. Whatever their stance on the conflict.

Although I'm discovering the guy is indeed usually more talkative about politics in the Middle-east than he cared to admit in his statement though. The more I read about him the less I like him (although he already made some progress, coming from an orthodox background...).

Here some interesting food for thoughts:

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/634118043757510656

Article+twitter convo is interesting.

 

[phaze]

But what is their stance on the independence of Basque and Catalonian state.

 

[Ikael]

Please make a video condemning Spanish inquisition if you want to stay on this forum ;p

Don't worry, we will soon have yet another tread about bullfighting where we will all be able to trot and pimp our moral superiority while dennouncing other people's lack of thereof. That's what gaf is made for, I think

But what is their stance on the independence of Basque and Catalonian state.

Funnyly enough, this types of "ideological purity tests" have also been applied to the independentist question by both proponents and detractors of independence ("is this artist that is going to play in our town pro or anti independence? If wrong answer, BAN HIM").

Seriously, this illiberal bullshit is indefendible. I cannot believe that there are people arguing for it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You should comprehend that targeting non Israeli Jews might rightfully raise eyebrows. Whatever their stance on the conflict.

Although I'm discovering the guy is indeed usually more talkative about politics in the Middle-east than he cared to admit in his statement though. The more I read about him the less I like him (although he already made some progress, coming from an orthodox background...).

Here some interesting food for thoughts:

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/634118043757510656

Article+twitter convo is interesting.

But he was targeted for his stance on the conflict not for being Jewish, unless you can show me anyone else they went after who didn't have the blatant trail of anti-Palestine bullshit that this guy had.

 

[Idde]

The difference between lack of knowledge ignorance and the ignorance displayed by racists and bigots alike is the lack of interest in trying to learn more the speed at which a person with little knowledge reacts when confronted with a situation about a topic they know little about.

There are many people who know little about Judiasm. That doesn't mean these same people will rally against Israel blaming all Jews. A normal ignorant person about a subject may ask questions that might be slightly offensive but in the spirit of learning. A racist or bigot feels they know all they need to know about a particular topic and doubles down even when faced with facts that proves them wrong.

Agreed on all accounts. And it also doesn't help matters that peoples thoughts are usually very persistent. So if ignorance develops into some sort of negative bias it's VERY difficult to change it into something positive. Unfortunately.

That may my personal experience but I have absolutely no patience in understanding racists and bigots.
I don't care if their feelings are getting hurt or even if they're fired or something.
I just want to interact as little as I can with that brand of stupidity.
That's actually a very big reason why I have absolutely nothing but contempt for the Left in France.

I don't care if racists and bigots get fired, or if their feelings get hurt either. That's not why I want to understand their way of thinking. But in order to change their views, first you have to understand their views. I don't care if they have a job or not, I just care if they are (and will remain) racist or not. I can of course see how having bad experiences leads people to stay as far away from them as possible.