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Speedrunning Thread - RESETRESETRESET
- Thread starter Red Arremer
- Start date
Mr. Enigma
Member
He always chokes on Bowser. Every time.
This is news to me, but holy shit.
http://www.twitch.tv/2stop
Doublestop got the WR for Yoshi's Island 100%. Time: 2:37:33
Dude has been only running 100% YI since October 2013 (probably did Any% for a long time). That is god damn impressive. He had the previous WR as well, but I haven't been paying attention to speedrunning the past month a lot besides OoT, SM64, and Sunshine due to TwitchPlaysPokemon lol.
Video of the run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9guRj5Y4iM
http://www.twitch.tv/2stop
Doublestop got the WR for Yoshi's Island 100%. Time: 2:37:33
Dude has been only running 100% YI since October 2013 (probably did Any% for a long time). That is god damn impressive. He had the previous WR as well, but I haven't been paying attention to speedrunning the past month a lot besides OoT, SM64, and Sunshine due to TwitchPlaysPokemon lol.
Video of the run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9guRj5Y4iM
And EXACTLY as I post this... he runs into a flaming rock at Ganon's castle. :_;
Edit: Ok, get back in here! He's on another crazy run!
...and he just missed the jump in the Deku tree..... TWICE! ;_;_;_;
Purple Cheeto
Member
Co op Bubble Bobble is total hype.
Seeing how in the any% category the top player on the native console is #26...
That being said, I think Skater and maaaaybe Shaeden are better players.
In other news I'm almost SRL front page material.
New WR: http://www.twitch.tv/cosmowright
18:51
EDIT: He's going at it again, WR pace.
EDIT2: Welp.
EDIT3: Here is the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_SqfTdYD1g
18:51
EDIT: He's going at it again, WR pace.
EDIT2: Welp.
EDIT3: Here is the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_SqfTdYD1g
YianGaruga
Banned
That discussion can be had about 1.0 JP carts, VC versions and basically any other version of any game out there that is faster than another, rare or not. People use the (legit) equipment that is faster and they should. People can still compare their non-iQue times and decide they're the fastest VC player or whatever, but Cosmo beat OOT the fastest, period. The discussion is really getting old.
Should people not use the JP version because it's relatively hard to aquire either?
He uses the chinese iQue that has a 10-15 second (iirc) advantage for any% because of faster text.
YianGaruga
Banned
I think Runnerguy has one but he's not competitive in any% and iQue is not (significantly, at least) faster in other categories.
There's a difference between "Kind of hard to acquire" and "Only one competitive person in the community has one."
If for example, you could finish Wind Waker 2 minutes quicker on the Panasonic Q it would technically be valid, but it doesn't make it any less lame of a comparison.
Basically, he's the best on a technicality, not based on skill, which is a lame reason to be "the best".
YianGaruga
Banned
That's an arbitrary distinction to make. Everbody can aquire an iQue if they wanted. How many people need to own one until it isn't unfair anymore?
EDIT: Speedrunners always use the fastest versions to be "technically" faster. Why else would everybody play on JP?
The point I'm making is that there's a pretty big distinction between the iQue version and the regular JP N64 version, that distinction being 10-15 seconds (which is huge in speed running).
So saying "He has the best OOT time!" ignores "only because better players don't have access to that same hardware."
He doesn't have the best time because he's better, he has the best time because he has an advantage others don't.
His record is quantified.
You even say "Everyone plays on JP". If everyone is playing on JP why should his non-JP record be considered?
It basically treats inequal records as if they're equal and that is, like I've said, lame.
YianGaruga
Banned
There is an even bigger distinction between JP and US versions. Yet it's universally accepted that you play on JP instead of US, because it's faster and you want to be faster. That's the point of speedrunning. For some reason people don't feel the same about iQue and it's unfair. Being required to buy a JP cart to compete is accepted, but iQue isn't?
You're advocating separate leaderboards for every version (what 10+?) that are out there. That's unreasonable.
But it's universally accepted that you play on JP instead of US. There is a standard available which MOST are judged on, and then Cosmo is an outlier who is judged on a standard which is significantly beneficial yet still compared to the others who aren't.
That's a stupid comparison to make.
I'm not advocating separate leaderboards for every version, more that some options shouldn't really be considered because it isn't a fair comparison to make.
It just seems like throughout all of this you're ignoring the fact that the OOT he plays is very different from the one every one else does yet it's still being treated as if its the same.
So your solution is "Well then they should buy it if they want to compete" when I think the right answer should be "There is a standard on which this is judged and if the one person, Cosmo, wants to compete he needs to do it on flat and fair grounds."
It is the fastest time for OOT any% and should be reported as such. If anyone has a problem with that, the page at ZeldaSpeedRuns leaderboards can be filtered to not include whatever version you want. You would be making an arbitrary distinction on the versions you include, but whatever floats your boat.
Cosmo's time is 18:51, the best on JP is 19:00. Cosmo is sure that he can save at least 10 more seconds (which his splits on the current WR indicate), making it 20 seconds faster than the current JP record, negating the time advantage that iQue has. Furthermore, what most people don't know is that the iQue controller is incredibly bulky and difficult to handle. The control stick is also of really poor quality, to the point where Runnerguy gave up trying to run on it--it was simply not good enough.
Moreover, the community never decided that JP is the go-to version for running Ocarina of Time, or any Zelda game for that matter, it simply happened. There are runners running on English, and they are rightfully compared to the JP records. If you want to look for the English WR, then you are free to do so, but it won't be the fastest time. Getting a hold of the JP version and running on it isn't a small feat, and is not that far off from the effort necessary to do the same on an iQue. The exclusion of iQue in one's countings of the fastest time is arbitrary at best.
I believe Project 64 1.7 was banned because the emulation was inaccurate and/or faster than normal. iQue is an official version that was approved by Nintendo, so by the ruling in the Zelda community that all official versions are allowed, it's okay.
Do you consider "It gives a sizable advantage in a competitive field" as arbitrary?
Because that's literally the only thing being tested - your ability to complete the game as fast as possible.
I mean, what if someone got the world record on Track and Field because they used a Nintendo produced controller that had a turbo button.
Project 64 is banned because it runs the game faster than normal. What is "normal"? Because under those circumstances, the iQue version also runs the game faster than normal because it doesn't suffer slow down where other versions do which is, in fact, faster than normal.
Your distinctions seem way more arbitrary than mine do. Your distinction is simply "The names the same" when my distinction is "The games are equal".
That seems pretty arbitrary to me considering the JP version is the same in comparison to the US version. Why is using the Chinese version suddenly a horrible thing when the Japanese one isn't?
That is not the same thing at all. What you are suggesting is cheating, producing input that a human cannot accomplish within the bounds of the game (can be done with OoT pause buffering, but that is beside the point). This is a universally accepted standard in the speedrunning community as a whole and is not accepted for any game that I know of. The iQue doesn't do anything superhuman; it just has faster text, which to my knowledge the JP version has too. Hell, the US version probably has faster text than the Italian version; ban US, it's too good!
There is an important distinction that you're missing here. Project 64 is an emulator, which is not produced by Nintendo, and is therefore not official. If I remember correctly, and for the sake of discussion, it was banned for running OoT faster than 60 fps. No official version does this, hence it's faster than normal.
Project 64 and iQue do not slow down in cutscenes, so they are indeed faster than N64 in that sense. However, the Virtual Console does not slow down in cutscenes either, and is an official version by Nintendo (EDIT: Seems there is some lag still in VC, but it's marginal. Still, iQue is an official version of the game and can therefore set the standard. Thus, the point still stands). Hence, the cutscene speed is not grounds for banning a version.
I truly disagree. You want to ban the Chinese version of the game but not the Japanese, which makes little sense to me.
The point is that if things are going to be judged they should be judged on an even ground.
I think the Japanese version is acceptable because it's much more reasonably available and many competitive runners already have access to a copy.
The very heart of the matter is that he has a record because of an advantage that others do not hold.
If another more capable speed runner were to have been playing on the iQue when he made his attempt, he would have a better record but he doesn't simply because he doesn't have access to the means of getting that record. It's an outlying case that's far from the norm.
You point out "Well it's officially produced by Nintendo" but I don't think that validates anything more. If the GC version ran 20% faster would people be comparing it to the japanese version? It's officially Nintendo produced.
If playing the GC version on a wii ran it 25% faster would people be comparing it to the japanese version? It's officially Nintendo produced.
The iQue version does, in fact, run faster than the japanese version because it doesn't suffer the slow down, but even though it's faster it's still held under the same title and standards as the other games when it is being played under a different standard.
I mean it's as simple as this.
OoT on the iQue is a different game than the others so it's dumb to judge them as the same.
As for your guys "Well then why should the Japanese version be acceptable!". The standard should be set somewhere. If the choice for setting the standard is between obscure hardware that wasn't very widely produced that currently one competitive player has, or a version that many competitors have their hands on and is the original release of the game, it's pretty clear which one should be a more reasonable standard.
I feel like you're just assuming I would think the US OoT version would be the default for some weird reason when that isn't the case since not everyone is from the US.
Something needs to be the standard for the competition to be considered fair and even worthwhile. If the person who is the best does not hold the title for best as a result of means outside of his control, that makes the whole competitive angle pretty damn pointless.
The hardware argument has been beaten to death. If people really cared about hardware they would be playing JP N64. The only person playing on 64 is like 26th in any%. I think it's fine Cosmo uses his 13s advantage iQue, except one thing people fail to mention is that the iQue has a better ESS position compared to VC.
Skater's run is better outside of the god HESS that Cosmo is using.
Skater's run is better outside of the god HESS that Cosmo is using.
Yeah dude, it's totally bull shit to think it's weird that someone who has an unfair advantage holds the world record because of their unfair advantage.
Such total bullshit. God forbid someone you're riding so hard get criticized.
the only ways to make everything 100% fair are:
1. make everybody use the exact same version of the game.
or
2. create separate categories for each individual version of the game.
both of which are unreasonable.
the bottom line is that the rules are set by the community, and cosmo beat the game faster than anybody else, using means that are considered valid by the community.
Velcro Fly
Member
The goal is to complete the game in the fastest time possible. Complaining about version is like people who complain about bugs and glitches. Taking something someone does mostly for fun and something that people watch mostly for fun and making it some super serious debate that someone shouldn't have a world record is really dumb. Speedrunning is and always has been about fun. I hate the people who constantly hang on to world record crap. Just enjoy the runs.
This is where you're losing me, because this does happen constantly with speedrunning. OoT specifically has less lag on VC, and if you look at the leaderboards the first actual N64 hardware time is placed in the 30s somewhere. It's still the same game, just a different version, unlike something like OoT 3D which has actual content differences and becomes a different game.
Regarding JP, it's also missing the actual evolution to this point. The only reason a lot of players have that version is specifically because they went out of their way to obtain it when they realized it was a big timesaver.
Cosmo actually has a write up on this topic.
FormallyMegadrive
Member
Does anyone on GAF speedrun? I speedrun Dishonored Any% currently and am looking into GTASA and Dishonored Non-Lethal Ghost Any% (NLG).
http://twitch.tv/megadriving
http://twitch.tv/megadriving
me
got a 3:29 in zelda tp (wr 3:13 or so)
5:10 in zelda tww ( wr 4:25 or so)
i really want a better a tp time but haven't got the time to stream or even able to do runs lately cause of shitty apartment w/ really shitty internet =[
And even when i got "good" internet, its like not good enough for streaming so it bums me down.
i think somebody on gaf does supermeatboy Individual Levels on gaf
corranhorn has a sub 1 hour in zelda nes, i keep harassing him to improve it but he won't listen
also to put up with this whole Ique debate, any% oot sucks, deal with it
watch AD, MST, 100% oot :-]
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
me
got a 3:29 in zelda tp (wr 3:13 or so)
5:10 in zelda tww ( wr 4:25 or so)
i really want a better a tp time but haven't got the time to stream or even able to do runs lately cause of shitty apartment w/ really shitty internet =[
And even when i got "good" internet, its like not good enough for streaming so it bums me down.
i think somebody on gaf does supermeatboy Individual Levels on gaf
corranhorn has a sub 1 hour in zelda nes, i keep harassing him to improve it but he won't listen
also to put up with this whole Ique debate, any% oot sucks, deal with it
watch AD, MST, 100% oot :-]
its soooo hard
Mr. Enigma
Member
I speedrun Silent Hill 4.
megadrive said:
I run A Link to the Past decently (1:32) and Super Metroid poorly (59:30).
twitch.tv/xreleased
Holden said:
Agreed. To me, Zelda is a lot about the dungeons. Any% OoT is a cute novelty run that shows how broken the game is, but it's just a bite-sized portion of gameplay. I have no clue why people pay so much attention to it. MST and AD are way more interesting.
That's one thing I love about ALttP. Although there are ways to beat the game very quickly (quicker than Any% OoT even), the community is mostly focused on the category that does all of the dungeons.
I don't think the first option is that unreasonable, and it isn't universally accepted in the community, or else Cosmo clearly wouldn't feel the need to write a huge blog post about why he feels his way is valid.
There's nothing wrong with him doing great and having the fastest time on the iQue, I just don't think it should be compared to fastest times on something like JP carts because the part that matters for speed runs, how quickly it's able to be completed, are completely different between the two. It's comparing two things which are very similar in many ways but for the parts that matter, different in profoundly important ways.
You're right, it does happen, and if people in the community eventually consider it reasonable that the iQue should be standard against which all others are judged then it should totally be valid, but when most people are competing with JP carts or some other thing, and losing simply because they don't have access to iQue hardware, that's a lame reason to lose for them, and a lame reason to come out on top for Cosmo.
*high five*
Any% OoT is probably one of the most interesting short speedruns out of them all and is very active compared to other formats. It helps that it is one of the most high profile games ever lol.
Anyways, Cosmo has been trying this skip all day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeqUpLfaP7A
Was previously a TAS only skip.
Anyways, Cosmo has been trying this skip all day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeqUpLfaP7A
Was previously a TAS only skip.
http://www.twitch.tv/gonfgc
I've done a few speedruns of Rise of the Triad '95. It's a superb FPS from the 90s. I started a topic for it on SDA with a few tips and such. It's probably been over a month since I touched it though. Dunno if I'll keep playing it or try speedrunning some other stuff. I kind of wanna speedrun Halo 4 but streaming a console seems like it might be troublesome, not to mention expensive. Speedrunning is such a fascinating, refreshing way to play through games you love.
Anyways, I might not always stream speedruns, but I'll follow everyone else who posted their channel later. Love seeing gaffers speedrun!
theprodigy
Member
You guys should try picking off WRs of games nobody really runs
Velcro Fly
Member
Where do you draw the line though? JP versions are used all the time because the text is faster or bugs are available there not available in other versions. How is that any different? I get what you are saying but if you go that far you have to go the full way that everyone has to play the exact same version of the game. Some communities agree to use cart only as opposed to VC (SM64). Does anyone remember when someone "broke" Siglemic's WR for 120 star by playing on VC? And then a day or two later he smashed it playing on VC on an alt?
It's an unfortunate situation with OoT I guess but it's seriously no different than using a JP cart since it's faster.
Personally, I think I'd say that there should just be a standard set to be judged with, be at JP carts, VC, iQue, or whatever. It should be one standard that they use officially for competing with the game, and the other options can still be run but not really used in consideration for the world record best.