Anton Sugar
Member
Get your facts straight. SHE WAS ORANGE.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Get your facts straight. SHE WAS ORANGE.
Is that right? Am I severely colorblind or is my memory that bad? Lol if so.
Anton Sugar
Member
She's orange, yeah, but I mostly agree. I didn't find her as bad as you did, but felt that they could have come up with a better role for Lupita other than "short old-ass alien who knows about the Force". I do like that she established some kind of link between the saber and Rey, though.
Also, Maz visited me over Christmas at a bar:
cloud_sleep
Member
"Please, egg/key/deface my car."
That's terrible but part of me can't help but admire the sheer audacity and commitment involved. What an arsehole.
The Librarian
Banned
I think it also would have benefited from a quick Two Towers map scene (this was the best clip I could find) just to make sense of the various pieces at play.
I like her just fine, but I didn't like the use of her as a way to quickly explain the force. As someone else said about the map scene, it felt like going through the motions but then it may work better for newcomers than someone who's already seen this scene in the old Star Wars. It didn't help that it took place in the basement of a bar or whatever.
My thoughts on your points:
1) We only see Finn as a Stormtrooper for a brief moment at the beginning, but he was far from terrible at it. We see him man turrets, use a blaster to kill some fellow Stormtroopers (during the Maz temple attack), and hold his own against a melee trooper, and Kylo Ren. That wasn't Finn training, that was a result of his Stormtrooper background. Phasma said he never had any problems before, and yes, he was in sanitation on Starkiller base, but any military man will tell you that they've held a lot of different jobs during their time. Also, he was a solider is Phasma's squad of Stormtroopers sent to ransack the Jakku village to recover insanely important data. They would not have just handed that job off to any crew. It was Phasma's crew, implying Finn not being your run of the mill, joe average trooper.
2) Not true in the slightest. Him escaping and turning informs his very character. It was massively important to his development as a hero. He broke his conditioning and freed himself from the First Order. Poe was more of a plot device, in that he is holding key information to finding Luke, and Finn needed a pilot to help him escape. Poe also demonstrates that plot devices can be incredibly likable characters...
3) Rey surprised him and knocked him on his ass while he wasn't looking. That's not getting his ass handed to him, that's getting the drop dropped on you. BB-8 and Finn had no interaction in the movie in which he was bested by him. That's you grasping for another straw in the "Finn is holding those L's" narrative that is obnoxiously prevalent in discussion boards. The Rathar was a comedic beat, and played out as such, just like with BB-8. While sure, the Rathar's are dangerous, the scene is hardly framed as anything more serious than typical Star Wars shenanigans. Hell, Luke got grabbed by a tentacle monster in A New Hope, and only "won," because the monster let him go, not because he bested it in battle. That moment in ANH was played more for tension than the Rathar sequence.
He did get knocked on his ass by the Riot trooper, but we don't know how that fight would have ended, because the trooper got killed by Han, and shortly after that, they all got surrounded by troopers, and their weapons taken away. After that, Poe shows up, and during the fight, Finn kills some Stormtrooper with a blaster, a weapon he seems more comfortable with than a lightsaber, despite his melee training. He got beat by Kylo because Kylo knows how to use a lightsaber better than him. The point of that fight wasn't to have Finn "win," it was a defining moment for his character, because it showed that, despite going up against a more experienced fighter, he was willing to die to help his new friend. Finn didn't fight Kylo expecting to win, but he was trying to defend Rey, thus finding something to fight for after all. It was the moment he stopped "running" as Maz told him. He faced his past head on. Narratively, there was no way Finn was winning that fight, and not because it wasn't his story, but because it was a situation in which someone wasn't going to walk out of there alive. Either Kylo or Rey/Finn. It's the first movie in a trilogy. Rey didn't really win that fight either. She got a burst of adrenaline and force awareness, but before the battle could finish, the earth opened up and they were separated. It's very possible Kylo would have rallied, and taken advantage of her hesitation to kill him. That fight isn't over yet.
4) Far from it. A bad fighter would have had the shit knocked out of him moments from engaging the superior fighter. Finn held his own against the riot trooper until the trooper got a lucky hit on him with his stun baton (try coming back from a fight after a few thousand volts of electricity have coursed through your body), and he held his own against Kylo Ren for way longer than even Kylo was expecting. Even so, this point is more like an extension of your above post, not a separate point, and was used to pad your list.
5) Not even. Finn saved Poe. Finn was the gunner while Rey piloted the Falcon. If he hadn't been taking out the Tie Fighters, there's no doubt that one or more of them would have gotten a lucky hit on the Falcon and disabled it, or caused it to crash, killing Rey. It was also Finn that convinced the others to send him to Starkiller to disable the shields, when he really just wanted to rescue Rey. Yes, Rey rescued herself, but unless she lucked out with a ship, there was a big chance she'd have encountered Kylo again, he may have bested her, taking her to Snoke, or killed her, the Starkiller base wouldn't have been destroyed (it was his plan to capture Phasma and force her to lower the shield generators; another Resistance soldier may not have known to try that tactic). Finn was important to the narrative in more ways than just how many heroic moments he had. His relationships with Poe/Rey/Han are important to not only the development of those characters, but his own as well. He goes from a man fleeing his past, to facing it and persevering, even if he does end up TKO'd at the end. He's one of the most heroic and relatable characters in the film.
6) Who cares? A lot of people were saved by a lot of people throughout the movie. Poe was saved by Finn. Finn was saved by Rey. Han/Finn/Chewie were saved by Poe. Finn was saved by Han. Rey was saved by The Force/her own resourcefulness. In every ensemble cast action movie, characters will be captured, rescued, saved, etc by others or saving themselves. It's just...not as important. What does it matter if it was Rey that saved him. The fact that Finn didn't save Rey, but attempted to was another moment that established the bond between Finn and Rey. She was genuinely moved that he came back for her. It was a moment of growth for Finn that he'd risk his life for her. Succeeding or failing in saving her wasn't the point of the action. The point was the building of the relationship of Finn and Rey. How that occurs is up to the screenwriter. The result was going to be the same whether Finn saved her or not: Finn/Rey grow closer. This is how it would have played out:
A) Finn saves Rey: "Thank you for saving me, Finn! You're a good friend! We are now closer!"
B) Rey saves herself, and bumps into Finn (which happened in the movie): "Thank you for coming back for me, Finn! I didn't know that I meant that much to you! You willingly put yourself in harms way for me! I'm grateful! We are now closer!"
The latter is a lot more dramatic, and opens the door for characterization of both Rey and Finn. Basically, it was a much more effective use of the situation because it served to enhance both characters, not just one. Finn also gave the Resistance vital information on Starkiller base that they would not have gotten when they got it had he not been present to give it to them.
8) Luke almost died at the end of The Empire Strikes Back? And? Once again, the point isn't that Finn wins every encounter he's in, but how those encounters inform and shape his character going forward. We don't know how his loss to Kylo is going to affect him, because episode 8 isn't out for another year and a half. More than likely, he is going to try and keep a situation like that from happening again. How that happens is yet to be seen. If he is Force Sensitive, then he'll probably seek out ways to train in the Force (probably through Maz, while Rey is with Luke). If not Force Sensitive, then he'll train in other ways, maybe learning to be a better melee fighter, a better pilot, a better marksman, who knows. His character arc is wide open looking at where we left him in TFA. He's no longer a Stormtrooper, but he has learned to fight for those he cares about, even loves. Winning or losing the fight against Kylo wouldn't have changed that character arc trajectory. Here's another set of scenarios:
A) Finn somehow managed to beat Kylo: "Woot! I beat you! I have overcome one of the biggest obstacles I will ever face, being a lowly sanitation worker/Stormtrooper! In episode 8, I will continue to rack up wins, and probably smooch Rey a lot, since I've learned the value of friendship, and have someone to fight for and protect!"
B) Finn loses to Kylo: "I was knocked on my ass by a much more skilled and dangerous foe. I need to not get owned again, so I'm going to try and better myself so the next time we meet, Kylo won't steamroll over me.
The former scenario is boring as fuck. Having a hero who constantly wins becomes boring and predictable. Look at Batman, James Bond, Superman, etc. While those characters are iconic and cool, the fact that they always come out on top makes their adventures less exciting for a lot of people (me included). We want to see our heroes fall, get up, fall, and get up again. The latter, and current scenario for Finn sets up a much more interesting arc and dynamic for both he and Kylo. Kylo bested him, so a second match could easily have Kylo underestimating the now determined and battle hardened Finn. It can add tension to the fight. I see the same for Kylo/Rey. Rey got the upper hand on Kylo, which could lead her into believing she can best him again. I imagine their second encounter is going to be far more in the favor of Kylo than Rey.
The second act is always where shit hits the fan for our hero/heroine. I think Rey is going to suffer a patented Skywalker limb loss in 8, and maybe Finn will actually successfully fend off Kylo while Rey is incapacitated (and no, that doesn't suddenly make Rey a damsel in need of saving, it helps round out her character by having her suffer a crushing loss after such a heroic victory, and sets up the stage for her to come back even better and more determined in 9. There's also some nice poetic symmetry to having Finn actually get the upper hand on Kylo this time, a mirror to their previous encounter. Star Wars loves its parallels). Hell, he could still lose and die at the end, but we have no idea, and a heroic death could still have some narrative power (I'm not expecting him to die in 8 or 9, realistically).
Creating a story with well rounded and 3 dimensional characters requires the writer to consider how the actions of the characters affect not only their character arcs, but the arcs of the characters that intersect one another throughout the story. TFA is actually well designed in that aspect, as the various character arcs are both influenced by, and independent of, one another. Kylo's arc was going a certain way, until he encountered Rey. Rey's arc was going a certain way until she encountered Finn. Fin's arc was going a certain way until he encountered Rey. Poe's arc was going a certain way until he encountered Finn. Rey/Poe/Finn's arcs were all going a certain way until they encountered Kylo Ren, etc, etc. Now that the characters and arcs are set up, the fun stuff gets to happen in Episode 8. That's going to be the real meat of this new trilogy, and it could go any way for any character:
Kylo is going into training with Snoke, who he disappointed at least three times throughout the movie. He is going to further sink into the well of the dark side and it's powers, making him more dangerous.
Rey is going into training with Luke, who she clearly has some kind of connection to that will influence the flow of her training (how will Rey handle whatever truths Luke has to tell her concerning his exile, her abandonment on Jakku, etc?). While Kylo is getting stronger, is she? Or is her training not going as well as her or Luke hope/need it to go?
Finn is going to recover from his wounds, and seek out betterment, maybe his lost family, maybe he and Poe go on a Resistance mission, who knows. Is he Force Sensitive? And if he is, does he even want to be a Jedi? Having force powers don't automatically mean you must become a Jedi. Luke became a Jedi because his father was, and he wanted to be like his "war hero" dad. Rey may not even want to become a Jedi herself. What if she decides she doesn't want to become a Jedi, but Finn decides he does want to become a Jedi? Being a Jedi isn't always the end game of a force user. Maz clearly has force abilities, but she is no Jedi. Rey may decide the monk's life isn't for her. Finn may decide it is. The point is that the door is open for all of them to have interesting, compelling arcs.
None of this would have been possible had TFA not nailed the characterization of Finn/Rey/Kylo. Much like Luke in A New Hope, the potential of our leads won't be seen/felt until the middle movie. Finn is hardly a useless character. He's arguably the best character in a film full of great characters. That's fricking impressive.
Anton Sugar
Member
I would loooooove it if they incorporated Finn's defection into his storyline for VIII.
It's clear he was an anomaly in their childhood programming and I hope they do something with that. Finn becoming an integral part in the defection/destruction of the Storm Trooper program would be a nice way to turn that around.
EDIT: Also, saw The Revenant last night--reminded me of how great Domhnall Gleeson can be. Hope they give him a *little* more to do than bark in a nasally, snooty English accent in VIII.
It's clear he was an anomaly in their childhood programming and I hope they do something with that. Finn becoming an integral part in the defection/destruction of the Storm Trooper program would be a nice way to turn that around.
EDIT: Also, saw The Revenant last night--reminded me of how great Domhnall Gleeson can be. Hope they give him a *little* more to do than bark in a nasally, snooty English accent in VIII.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I dont think we will see his face anymore until the end of episode 9. It'll be more of a transformation surpise of someone not over to the dark side yet. I mean he has pretty incredible power to defy luke and be a main liason for Snoke. Almost exactly in the steps of Vadar.. which is cool beacuse that's what he hopes to become.
Ren still sees the light, has a temper because he is impatient. He wants power now, everything must be now now now. You can see this when he keeps asking Snoke to train him, to show him the way, at each meeting.
Love it. There is great depth when you really look at each character's development. Well to me anyway.
I hope they release this as a 4k movie
EDIT:
Oh i thought at the end where Ren was on the floor helpless while Rey was looking over him. like a decision was to be made by her.. does Rey use the force for evil and kill him or let him live? she then didnt have a choice, so we will never know what she was really going to do!!! that was awesome because it's a question that may not ever be answered.
That look she gave... mm damn.
Ren still sees the light, has a temper because he is impatient. He wants power now, everything must be now now now. You can see this when he keeps asking Snoke to train him, to show him the way, at each meeting.
Love it. There is great depth when you really look at each character's development. Well to me anyway.
I hope they release this as a 4k movie
EDIT:
Oh i thought at the end where Ren was on the floor helpless while Rey was looking over him. like a decision was to be made by her.. does Rey use the force for evil and kill him or let him live? she then didnt have a choice, so we will never know what she was really going to do!!! that was awesome because it's a question that may not ever be answered.
That look she gave... mm damn.
Hmm... Hollywood's take: they synthesize a serum of good from Finn and disperse it in the air via a giant gas bomb at the climax of the movie where the entire CGI hoard of stormtroopers are located and turn them all good. Look what you've done Anton, look what you've done.
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
Make him one of the Knights of Ren! You know, one of those other guys with Kylo when he killed the Jedi students.
Also this might have been explained somewhere but was it mentioned if the planet was mobile? I've been wondering because lets face it, if they sucked the sun dry with the second charge how were they still planning to use the planets doomsday capabilities.
Anton Sugar
Member
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I found it interesting on my rewatch that Rey killed presumably her first person and shes ok with it. Doubly so since she kills the trooper right after she is emotionally wrecked from touching the lightsaber. She just has no qualms with killing him. Contrast this with Finn, who freaks out after seeing someone die in his first battle
Shes got dark side in her.
Shes got dark side in her.
LegendofLex
Member
I'm pretty sure the guy Finn saw die wasn't trying to kill him, and he was freaking out for more reasons than just "whoa that guy died" since his partner died because they were raiding a village.
I mean, you might as well say that Luke has dark side in him.
A side story of Finn attempting to recruit/break the conditioning of a squad of First Order Stormtroopers could be really interesting, especially if he has another, less one-sided showdown with Captain Phasma. I want Finn to be force sensitive so bad (I'm not ashamed to admit that, as a black guy, having a force sensitive black guy using a lightsaber is something I want more than anything, but just seeing him ignite the saber in TFA and fight with it had me giddy and satisfied enough), but he has so much story potential either way. I feel "The Force Awakens" however, is a title referring to more than just Rey's awakening in the Force. I think it's a galaxy wide movement. The Force is rising up against whatever Snoke is attempting to do. Even so, Finn is too much fun. I want more Finn/Poe shenanigans, and a mission to bolster the numbers of the now Republic-less Resistance by pillaging First Order troopers would be a great way to have the two of them together for the majority of the movie.
I think it was more who was being killed that stopped Finn from pulling the trigger. Rey very much is acting in self defense against trained soldiers who will kill you on orders.
She lives on a dangerous planet with dangerous people. Perhaps she's already killed. She could be a serial killer for all we know. JeffREY Dahmer
I'm not so sure of that. When she first blast that stormtrooper she has a look on her face as if it dawns on her what she's done. I don't believe she really killed before and the action stuck with her a moment before she heard the others and instinct to fight and flee took over.
Anton Sugar
Member
lol
BluePigGanon
Member
Me too. From a First Order perspective, by all rights Finn should be public enemy #1. He's a traitor who gave intelligence and support to the enemy, resulting in the deaths of the thousands (tens of thousands? more?) of First Order folk on Starkiller.
Capturing, torturing, forcing a confession from and then executing Finn would be of immense propaganda value.
That Ray Park gif is amazing. He was so awesome as Maul. I'd love to see him brought back as former Force user who teaches Finn how to fight with a lightsaber (if Finn is force sensitive).
It'd just be too much of a shame to waste him on only Maul. Make him an alien (like, not a humanoid face alien, but something like a Rodian), and just let him be a badass fighter who can help the heroes in 8 and 9. His skill in martial arts is just too good.
I'd love to see a battle between Kylo and the Knights of Ren, and Luke's New Jedi Order (consisting of Luke, Rey, Finn, Ray Park, and maybe a new character introduced in episode 8 that also has Force abilities). It could still be raw, and visceral, not overly choreographed like the prequels (although the TPM, and segments of ROTS Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight are well done), but a nice middle ground like we got in TFA. I'd love to see Luke duking it out with two Ren Knights, Rey facing off against Kylo, Finn against another Knight, Park against another two, just a crazy, multi-story and layered battle to wrap up the trilogy. Seems like something Trevorrow would execute well (I don't care what anyone says, Jurassic World was fun, dumb movie, and the climactic battle with the Indominous Rex was some of the most awesomely stupid fun stuff featuring dinosaurs I've ever seen).
It'd just be too much of a shame to waste him on only Maul. Make him an alien (like, not a humanoid face alien, but something like a Rodian), and just let him be a badass fighter who can help the heroes in 8 and 9. His skill in martial arts is just too good.
I'd love to see a battle between Kylo and the Knights of Ren, and Luke's New Jedi Order (consisting of Luke, Rey, Finn, Ray Park, and maybe a new character introduced in episode 8 that also has Force abilities). It could still be raw, and visceral, not overly choreographed like the prequels (although the TPM, and segments of ROTS Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight are well done), but a nice middle ground like we got in TFA. I'd love to see Luke duking it out with two Ren Knights, Rey facing off against Kylo, Finn against another Knight, Park against another two, just a crazy, multi-story and layered battle to wrap up the trilogy. Seems like something Trevorrow would execute well (I don't care what anyone says, Jurassic World was fun, dumb movie, and the climactic battle with the Indominous Rex was some of the most awesomely stupid fun stuff featuring dinosaurs I've ever seen).
The Librarian
Banned
I don't understand why so many male Star Wars fans at least here seem so intent on Rey having this horrible bad side to her.
neoism
Member
cool will watch Driver has good comedic timing...
Yeah, funny isn't it
It's Reyn Time!
Member
She's straight up snarling at him. Just a little bit creepy. Seconds after the camera's zoomed right into both of their faces and they're both flickering red and blue too. There's no way they're not going to switch places, even if only temporarily, at some point.
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
Pretty much sums up the prequel fight scenes for me - technically impressive routines with a whole bunch of pointless flourishes. Turning your back on an opponent over and over so you can make a heavily signposted attack would just get you a mechanical spine to go along with those mechanical legs.
I'd like to see Phasma lead a group of anti-Jedi troopers to hunt rey and Finn down, complete with all sorts of gadgets and equipment made specifically to counter Jedi powers and whatnot. It seemed like TR-8R had that one thing to specifically fight against a lightsaber and it would be cool to see more of that.
I'd love to see just Luke fight all of the Knights of Ren and go ham like IP Man but with lightsabers
like so
This man knows what's up. We need to see some Boss Luke action.
Lifejumper
Member
What if old luke just swings his lightsaber wildly lol, like in the ROTJ Jabba scenes.
Yeah sure, drunken Jedi style.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yup--would be a great way to get Phasma more involved (and redeemed) in the story.
I'd love to see just Luke fight all of the Knights of Ren and go ham like IP Man but with lightsabers
like so
Oh FUCK, they should just straight up copy this scene from Sword of Doom. The "good stuff" starts at 1:45.
Tatsuya Nakadai is leading a group to go ambush this convoy, except he doesn't realize that a master swordsman (played by Toshiro Mifune) knows and is inside the convoy himself. Previously, Mifune rejected Nakadai as a pupil, recognizing him as highly skilled, but mentally unstable.
Mifune goes on a tear, completely DESTROYING Nakadai's force, while simultaneously lecturing Nakadai and leaving him straight shook:
A scene like that would be *perfect* for Luke and Kylo's first "reunion".
Boss Jedi Grandmaster Luke should fight other people just like Vader fought Luke in Empire, half the time he's fighting with only one hand and clearly holding back.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
I don't think he's saved up enough Dark Side Points to spec into that tree yet. I think with the points he got for killing Han the best he can do at the moment is Force Throw Things Around Angrily.
I'd rather he not. He should max out at Vader-tier.
Save Force Lightning and other crazy next level stuff for people like Palpatine.
I'm sure I'm in the minority but wasn't a huge fan of Finn and Rey. Acting was fine but felt like there wasn't a ton there for them to do with the characters through out the movie.
Finn especially felt like they just had him do things to push the plot along. He's shaking and obviously having a bit of a freak out at the Storm Trooper who is killed in front of him and does not want to take part in the massacre of the innocent people. Then suddenly he's gung ho on the Star Destroyer blowing up several of his fellow storm troopers and seemingly having a good old time doing so.
A lot of things like that just felt a little odd to me. Didn't ruin the movie but it felt a bit lazy in the writing department as its not just Finn but stuff like Phasma being a captain and a bad ass with her shiny armor and then gets bodied in like 2 seconds. Like why even bother with her, I mean I'm sure she'll have a bigger part in the next movies, but I'd prefer this movie stand on its own with this kind of stuff.
Finn especially felt like they just had him do things to push the plot along. He's shaking and obviously having a bit of a freak out at the Storm Trooper who is killed in front of him and does not want to take part in the massacre of the innocent people. Then suddenly he's gung ho on the Star Destroyer blowing up several of his fellow storm troopers and seemingly having a good old time doing so.
A lot of things like that just felt a little odd to me. Didn't ruin the movie but it felt a bit lazy in the writing department as its not just Finn but stuff like Phasma being a captain and a bad ass with her shiny armor and then gets bodied in like 2 seconds. Like why even bother with her, I mean I'm sure she'll have a bigger part in the next movies, but I'd prefer this movie stand on its own with this kind of stuff.
QuantumZebra
Member
Vader could have channeled it as well but his cyborg body could not channel it without frying. Hence why throwing Palps fried him. Any powerful dark side user can channel it for the most part, some more powerfully than others.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I think Vader would have easily learned Force lightning if he wasn't half-machine.
Meh, I'd rather keep that crazy stuff as some next-level final boss stuff and not something you unlock after hitting Force Master Level 3 on the Dark Side spec tree. When the Emperor busted it out at the end of Return of the Jedi it was awesome because it showed just how powerful and evil the Emperor was. The prequels sadly ruined the whole Force Lightning thing for me when Dooku uses it and both Obi Wan and Yoda subsequently block it
FlashbladeGAF
Member
If this wasn't a kid's movie, I wonder if his next level would be Force Crush (crushed beer can) or pull someone apart (tearing paper).
Interfectum
Member
After being defeated by Rey I'm guessing he's gonna get on Google and look for some good respecs.
He needs to up his DPS and parry ability.
speaking of Finn.
I can see a huge revenge plot for him in the next film. I bet he wakes up from that coma PISSED
hopefully he gets some sick mechanical upgrades too
and I hated Elysium
Nanomachines will save him don't worry
Anton Sugar
Member
They're called midichlorians in Star Wars.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Saw it again in 2D IMAX (at the Air and Space's very last screening with 70mm film), and though the movie was still great, I vastly preferred it in 3D. It just adds so much more depth and scope that you lose in 2D.
Remember when that lightsaber was revealed and everyone was like "There's no way to effectively use a lightsaber with cross guards like that without chopping your own hand off!".
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
Remember when that lightsaber was revealed and everyone was like "There's no way to effectively use a lightsaber with cross guards like that without chopping your own hand off!".
Similar threads
- Poll