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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Coffee Dog
Banned
Finn having the primary character arc forces Poe to carry the air battle is what I meant.
But the primary character arc of the movie is resolved in the forest with lightsabers. That's the climax of the movie, not the destruction of Starkiller base. In fact, the destruction of Starkiller base is kind of a gigantic, huge, dramatic metaphor for the conflict going on between Kylo and Rey at the end. This big, explosive, unstable thing, fracturing and breaking apart, destroying the foundations of the structure holding itself together before it ultimately implodes and leaves nothing but light behind.
EDIT: Wait, now I'm even more confused. Both Finn AND Rey complete their character arcs at the end. Finn fully stops running away, and instead charges straight into a battle he can't win because it's the right thing to do. And Rey literally reaches out and grabs hold of her destiny, leaving the past behind and charging ahead, and then finally embracing the Force and letting it in and thereby finding the potential she was burying.
Because it's not a paradigm, it's a unit of storytelling. Just because a duel of superweapons have some historical connections to the cold war doesn't mean you can't seperate it from those elements in the fiction itself. Having Superweapons with a star wars thematic overview isn't incompletely engaging with a paradigm, it's taking what you need and throwing out what you don't.
I am baffled as to why you think the bolded concepts are mutually exclusive. You'd think the importance of responsibility and pitfalls of hubris would be all the more vital lessons with the acquiring of world shattering power. And having that power is wrong? I mean, if you're going to continue this WWII, analogy, America, the democratic one, is was the one who developed the nukes, and we still have the worlds leading supply, and the pressures of using such WMD's responsibly is a constant pressure. That's why there are many sets and regulations for why you can use one. Even the president can't just go "You know what, I'm bored, lets nuke africa!" with impunity. But acquiring power is a definitive bad guy trait? Did I sleep through the series, or is it not the point of the series that the Rebellion wants to put down the Empire so they can elect their own system of government? Was not Luke's journey about becoming a master of using the force as a Jedi? How are those things not acquiring power? Because they have good intentions with them? Well, you can frame it the same way with the superweapon.
Look, the only reason you think that these elements would be problematic is because you have an idea of what star wars is and isn't. But you're framing it that if star wars changes, it won't be star wars anymore. That's nonsense and, as establlished, how change literally works. Change makes a series live and breathe like a real organism. If that's the natural next step according to the storyline, it would be crippling to the themes of the series not to meet it head on. You want a super weapon battle, you can ahve that while maintaining the Star Wars spirit unless you speciifcally say that it''s not for Star wars to have super weapon battles. But I think you can agree that is a pretty nonsensical definition for the core of Star Wars.
Of course, there is no way to actually convince anyone that an idea can work unless that idea is made manifest. It's easy to talk about theoretical storylines, but the devil is in the details, and it'd be about how the actual writer frames it. For various reasons, it could suck worse than the prequels, or be the single best thing to happen to star wars, or anything inbetween. But my general argument is that it's possible to do, which you seem to agree with. Whether it's worth doing or desirable to do....eh, that's up to you. But anytime anyone says an idea can't work, that's my cue to come in with a big NOPE. Anything can work.
But the person with the primary character arc is Rey
QuantumZebra
Member
I want to see the list where incest is far down it
QuantumZebra
Member
Honestly, if anything, it's surprising that Leia went with Han Solo before discovering Luke was her brother. Maybe the force overrode their genetics on this one.
Edit: Jesus, if the Rey is Luke's daughter, I really hope the force does it again, if that 2012 couple is anything to go by, because Eugafgadfdgdag *vomit*.
That long held gaze at the end has suddenly become wrong, so wrong.
Wow its like you completely ignored the first half of that post. Good job.
Personally I'm generally not thrilled about cousin ships unless there is something super compelling about it, but I also can't usually find myself overly outraged over them. Its certainly a demerit against the ship, but compared to Kylo Ren being a MURDEROUS PSYCHOPATH...its just not a major concern.
Yelling "BUT INCEST!!!!!" isn't a particularly edifying argument.
Especially in a fandom that has a ship where that is a much, much stronger argument against.
This is all a different theme than we've seen previously. Your claim I was reacting to was "The idea that this new way can't be framed into a way that works with the Star War's themes is what I object to." Bringing in a discussion of how to properly check against the malicious use of power is a theme that Star Wars may be used to explore, what I'm saying is that's a new theme for the series to take up. The general stance there seems to me "abhor power". Again in this movie we see a ragtag crew triumphing by force of will rather than by superior arms.
The novels' idea that the First Order took root because Mon Mothma took steps to demilitarize the Republic alludes to an expanded take on these overarching themes of power. That didn't make it into the movie though. It's hard to know how to read these different media together in any kind of coherent way.
*Was* Luke's journey about becoming a master of using the Force? He ultimately relinquishes his power over Vader, putting up his sword. And he defeats the Emperor not by fighting him, but by taking the hits on the chin. He beat the Emperor because he was willing to let the Emperor kill him. The Republic Fleet successfully kills Death Star II with or without any intervention from Luke.
You really should stop telling me what I think. You're usually wrong. I dunno if that's my miscommunication or your misread but let's recognize that this misunderstanding frequently happens between us.
I right there in that post concluded by wondering how much the creators can about what Star Wars is. Maybe my next response will clarify my interest:
Yes, I agree with all of this. Star Wars is an unusual case. Lots of people (who are not me) do care very personally about what Star Wars *is* and have demonstrated frustration with a Star Wars that fails that expectation -- see the prequels' reception. I think it's an interesting question, then, how willing will the caretakers going forward be to push those expectations? And what do they even see as being the core important components? We can see from this movie a real reticence to deviate too far from Episode IV and the OT more generally.
ATOMICJORGE
Member
I saw the movie on IMAX 3D this December 23, it was pretty good, on the opening credits I started to get a lot of shivers, when Han and Chewie appeared for the first time I cried a little, the new cast is awesome
the only complains that I have is that I saw a lot of things from Episode IV and from the videogame Knights of the Old Republic (give us more proper KOTOR content please) but anyway
it was pretty good and way better than the prequels also they gave everyone on the audience this poster for free:
the only complains that I have is that I saw a lot of things from Episode IV and from the videogame Knights of the Old Republic (give us more proper KOTOR content please) but anyway
it was pretty good and way better than the prequels also they gave everyone on the audience this poster for free:
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Watched it for the second time today.
Loved it, way better the second time. One of the best SW movies.
Loved it, way better the second time. One of the best SW movies.
What I meant is that it will not replace the old theme, but obviously new content necessitates bringing in new themes. Before TFA, reminisicing on the mythical figures of Han, Leia, and Luke was not a theme either. Now it is. But it's still star wars.
That's not really relevant when the OT still had themes of the good guys achieving their own power.
I mean, that's how agency works. Characters build up some kind of power base to do something. Power is the ability to influence the world. If no one grabbed power, nothing would happen.
That makes it nuanced, but yes, it still is about him becoming a master, or atleast enough of one to win. Again, the argument is self defeated right there. Luke isn't the only good guy. The Rebel Fleet as a whole is. And they sought power. So either way, good guys get power to assert their own ideals into the world.
To compound to that, what is it that fans want from star wars that they have no idea that they want? Something that no one expects but would be met with critical praise from everyone?
Which to me makes it less an interesting question and more of a pointless one. How are you supposed to read that many minds or coherently organize them into a work that everyone accepts? The answer is you can't. So I always propose they don't try. Just write the best possible story they believe they can tell, not to appease any audience, but to actually just make a good story. It's for that reason I don't concern myself with what is and isn't star wars but what is and isn't good writing. No one hated the prequels because they 'weren't star wars', but because they were poorly written. Maybe some people framed it as 'not star wars', but I guarentee you that in an alternate universe where Lucas still had input from others reigning him in, there is a version of TPM where Jar Jar is beloved, where the romance scenes in AotC were moving and resonant, and the final fall into Vader was the best climax of all time, without changing any of the general content of the plot. We could have had that movie, if things turned out differently, but they failed because Lucas is a poor writer, not because he worked with some elements that were somehow incompatible with SW.
So I have no concern over what they do with the material. What I want to see is how they do it. If they were to turn Star Wars into a Death Note-esque mind game, or maybe a wushu/kungfu movie, or a rom-com, my question would be "How are you going to make it work", not "What does this have to do with SW"
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Fan "art" what-if scenario where Anakin never fell to the dark side.
I thought it was pretty cool.
I thought it was pretty cool.
I think this is much more of a normative claim than you might be giving it credit for. This claim is deeply capitalism-inflected. We see all kind of communities and individuals throughout history that have tried to minimize their influence on the world, I don't know if I'd call their lives "nothing". We can tell stories about refusing to influence the world just as easily as we can tell stories about influencing the world -- though we'll probably find a much thinner market for them.
Luke's glorious achievement in Return of the Jedi is a choice of inaction. I don't think it's clear that the Rebellion "sought" power. You can cast down one power without necessarily establishing your own authority. In the "canon", the Republic went on to demilitarize, not to consolidate power or authority. Reluctantly performing violence doesn't seem to me the same as "seeking power". Cincinnatus didn't "seek" power, he accepted it and then relinquished it. At this point we're super far afield and the next step is probably a "what even is power" semantics though, so we might drop this thread.
I suppose I take "working" as depending in part on being coherent with the rest of the body of Star Wars. I have an easier time imagining a beloved Jar Jar than a beloved conversation about midiclorians or a beloved virgin-birth-Anakin. Some things break in execution but some break in conception.
When I say influence the world, I didn't mean on a global state, I mean just around them. That I am typing on my keyboard is my influencing the world with my neural synapses firing away under the power of my brain through the peripheral system of my fingers. This is not a major display of power, but it is my power nonetheless. I am influencing the world by moving keystrokes in a particular order to convey an idea. That people try not to disrupt the loves of others isn't a lack of power, just a management of it.
I think my definition of power is pretty universal, but whatever. And you're still missing my point. Even if we follow through with your interpretation of Luke relinquishing power, other good guys didn't, which immediately disproves that only bad guys want to establish power.
And really, you can't even disrupt another power without having power of your own. The Rebellion wouldn't rebel if they didn't take rebellious actions, like fighting in large scale battes against the empire to do tangible damage to the Empire's military. With the Empire as the supreme governmental body, there is no way for these people to have been given power. They took it.
We'll disagree here. There are no conceptually bad ideas. Or good ones. They're just ideas, and how they're implemented. Hell, I actually thought virgin birth anakin with Palpatine using the force to create him is one of the better ideas the prequels had. It explains why the Skywalkers are so goshdarn special in the first damn place. In the right hands, it would have added a lot.
ATOMICJORGE
Member
Yeah.
I've probably said it in these threads many times, but when I left the theater after the first viewing I was almost completely emotionless and all I could think about was my nitpicks. The second time around, without the burden of 25 years worth of expectations and built-in worries, everything was more impactful and I could appreciate the movie about ten times more.
He really needs the stock art guy grimace. It's so close.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Can't unsee.
I see your point about the Rebel Fleet of course it's my point, too. I brought up the two battles in the climax. The end of Jedi has always been complicated. Luke wins the moral / redemptive / spiritual "battle" by going in to non-action. Lando wins the physical battle by shooting off a rocket. The movie clearly celebrates both of these victories -- as well it should. They're not exactly dissonant but they're not exactly coherent, either. Even though there's a lot of knucklehead things about Return of the Jedi, I've always appreciated how thoughtful and complicated the climax(es) were.
Two Battle Climaxes are really hard to make work, it's really hard to have both battles be engaging and impactful and also have them signify different and worthwhile things.
o no
Thread status: getting real.
TheDinoman
Member
As far as I'm concerned this is what Anakin would of looked like had he not turned.
I just think it's dissonance. Like, rather than seeing Luke's triumph as a way of something other than power acting out, it seems simpler to me that the power of familial love is stronger than the evil temptations that befell Darth Vader. Emotional power overcoming ego. I mean, even if we take your interpretation where only physical power is 'power' then, how did Palpatine die? Because Vader chucked him over the fucking railing. So Vader decides to use power in Luke's place. There's definitely some thematically driven themes about morality and temptations and integrity, but power is at no point seperate from the equation.
Also, Jedi actually had a 3 ending sequence, as the battle on Endor counts as it's own plotline. How does Han and Leia overpowering the empire with natives holding primative technology fit into that?
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
The true face of evil
Yeah I think I'd see power more as coercive capacity (including willingness to exercise it). So there's definitely a sense in which Luke getting tortured is the most coercive thing that happens in the whole series, inspiring Vader to turn his coat. The only other turncoat (or turncape maybe) in the OT is Lando The Flipflopper, who goes on to carry the day against the Imperial Fleet. So we can say the whole trilogy is a big "it's better to be loved than to be feared" parable if we really wanted to cut the whole thing down to a single concept.
but lol yep, the Endor battle definitely falls into "knucklehead things" about Jedi. If we wanted to read Jedi as the story of the Emperor's hubris we could pretend that he underestimated the "less developed" natives just like he underestimated the Rebel Fleet but let's not do that, the Ewoks are just lame. At least the Redwoods are pretty to look at and the speeder bikes are cool?
Wait, why do we need fanart when we got the actual thing in ROTJ?
Although that fanart isn't bad.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The movie felt rather unoriginal like they tried cramming in as much original trilogy hommage as possible which left no room whatsoever for the plot to be anything but a quasi retelling of ANH
I feel the same. Plus a lot of the plot points felt really forced, trying to have shocking revelations, but without building momentum for them.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
We really need that Obi Wan film where Maul and Obi can face off for the final time. They need to do it soon. Park can't keep his bod in such fine condition forever.
The only problem I see is they'd have to be careful about explaining how Maul returns because most filmgoers won't know wtf is going on if they didn't watch Clone Wars.
DistortionOfReality
Member
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
That's exactly the way i don't want the fights to look like.
Ray Park is pretty cool, nonetheless.
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
Maul da God!
Ray Park (Darth Maul) showing off some skills.. dude should be in another movie. With make up he could easily play another character..
I like Ray Park, but to me, this is the sort of flamboyance in sword play that I enjoyed NOT having in TFA. Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to, in terms of all these spins and twirls for no damn reason.
Probably my favorite moment for Ren is when he blocks Rey's shot with a blaster, with his lightsaber switching from his left to right hand. Simple and totally awesome.
EDIT: Actually, watching the gif now, it appears he has his lightsaber in his right hand, and slashes downward from his left shoulder, so there is no change of hands. Still looks boss
Also, the only time Ren does one of those show-of sword spinning move is pretty much the moment before Finn manages to land his one and only hit on him.
The twirling-the-sword was used to show a moment of overconfidence.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Watch any sword fight in a Kurosawa movie. They're few and far between BTW but they resemble the ANH duel between Kenobi and Vader. They're packed with tension and meaning. Not flashy twirls. You know why?
Cause those swords are fucking sharp and they were trying to not get cut first and foremost.
neoism
Member
probably posted already ...
well glad it'll probably answered in ep VIII
Who Are Rey’s Parents? JJ Abrams Responds To The Question
well glad it'll probably answered in ep VIII
Who Are Rey’s Parents? JJ Abrams Responds To The Question
still really sad JJ isnt gonna direct lol bro has finished a trilogy ever... :/
i really like adult jake lloyd. He just seems like a cool dude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQWxz5Eqi8
Interesting about that 6 hours of uncut footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQWxz5Eqi8
Interesting about that 6 hours of uncut footage.
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