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[heliosRAzi]

Right, it's just strange to me because it seemed like you were arguing AGAINST doing this before, which is where the issue came from (because it's not coming directly from the movie). Maybe I misunderstood you?

I probably didn't convey myself well.

In regard to the line, the camera doesn't literally SHOW him say this line, but I also agree that it's possible he said it to himself, hence the line from the novel (we might get information/canonization in the near future which supports this idea).

There is a possibility that they might have Kylo say "When she pulled the lightsaber to her, I thought to myself "It is you."" Until then, we have no proof that is what he is thinking. Until there is proof, it might as well not have even happened. The film tells us what we need to know and lets us connect the dots in our heads. Just going by the movie, I don't see how one can assume Kylo says something there.

If you haven't read the novelization then you wouldn't even know. Most people won't read the novelization. Only a minority will. This tells me that it is not important.

Novelizations often include more info because they're just better able to do it via that medium, unlike movies that need to be cut and filmed in specific ways to enhance that particular experience.

True, but they're still secondary.

Helios' argument has evolved as time went on. First it was that the novels aren't canon. Then it was that they are ok unless they contradict the film, but then he started calling things contradictions that weren't contradictions (he said Rey noting how handsome Poe is in the book (she thought it, didnt say it) contradicted the movie... but it doesn't at all. We can't read her thoughts in the movie and the scene where they meet isn't in it).

I said the books (novelization) doesn't count. I believe that the movies trumps everything else. And your argument has evolved, too. It went from "everything is canon" to "anything that doesn't contradict the movies is canon".

Rey and Poe interact in the book, but don't in the movie. They don't exchange words at all. That's a contradiction. And in movies, people can act. She doesn't have to say "He's handsome" but she can give him some flirty eyes or something.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I probably didn't convey myself well.


There is a possibility that they might have Kylo say "When she pulled the lightsaber to her, I thought to myself "It is you."" Until then, we have no proof that is what he is thinking. Until there is proof, it might as well not have even happened. The film tells us what we need to know and lets us connect the dots in our heads. Just going by the movie, I don't see how one can assume Kylo says something there.

If you haven't read the novelization then you wouldn't even know. Most people won't read the novelization. Only a minority will. This tells me that it is not important.


True, but they're still secondary.

That's the thing - you're operating on a whole different spectrum from most of us.

Most long time Star Wars fans have accepted that "canon" and information on the universe comes from the expanded media (novels, cartoons, comics) - and even pre-Disney, Star Wars was really good about the expanded universe not treading on the films. Really, really good at it.

So you're coming from the perspective that if its not in the film, its not important; whereas most fans who are "theorycrafting" or discussing possibilities are using all their resources (which they should, because as Disney has said, unless the movies contradict it, it *is* canon, it *is* a part of the universe).

They still manage to have a chat while the planet is collapsing around them though. A one way one maybe but still, a lightsaber duel didn't stop Vader revealing Luke was his son either.

I just think it'll be weird looking back if it wasn't revealed during that scene if Kylo knows he's related to her. If he doesn't and I don't think he does, it's not a problem.

That's the beauty of art - its open to interpretation.

I left my first viewing with the feeling he knew her, he just didn't come out and say it (which makes sense if you take things in context... he didnt truly know till she pulled the saber away from him... at which point the planet was falling apart literally at their feet ... no time for a family chat).

I myself would be disappointed in all the hints and suggestions of it if he doesn't know who she is.

 

[heliosRAzi]

That's the thing - you're operating on a whole different spectrum from most of us.

Most of us being the minority of people who have seen the movie and have only seen the movies. I don't see records broken for the novelization. I don't see people lining up for the novelization. I don't see troves and troves of articles about the novelization.

 

[Surfinn]

In regard to why Ren didn't bring it up during the fight.. there could be a million reasons why he doesn't tell her then. Maybe his pride/ego stood in the way of recognizing a (more) powerful light side user as kin? Maybe he wants to prove he can turn her on his own?

I probably didn't convey myself well.


There is a possibility that they might have Kylo say "When she pulled the lightsaber to her, I thought to myself "It is you."" Until then, we have no proof that is what he is thinking. Until there is proof, it might as well not have even happened. The film tells us what we need to know and lets us connect the dots in our heads. Just going by the movie, I don't see how one can assume Kylo says something there.

If you haven't read the novelization then you wouldn't even know. Most people won't read the novelization. Only a minority will. This tells me that it is not important.


True, but they're still secondary.

Right, but if there were "proof", there would be no point of theorizing or even having more episodes, in regard to the film's most glaring questions.

Until then, we speculate.. which has been the point from the beginning. And it doesn't matter if the info is coming from primary or secondary sources, since there is no proof of anything. They're all pieces of the puzzle, until we know more.

Most of us being the minority of people who have seen the movie and have only seen the movies. I don't see records broken for the novelization. I don't see people lining up for the novelization. I don't see troves and troves of articles about the novelization.

The popularity of "primary" or "secondary" sources is irrelevant. It's all canon until proven "guilty".

 

[heliosRAzi]

Right, but if there were "proof", there would be no point of theorizing or even having more episodes, in regard to the films most glaring questions.

Until then, we speculate.. which has been the point from the beginning. And it doesn't matter if the info is coming from primary or secondary sources, since there is no proof of anything. They're all pieces of the puzzle, until we know more.

Speculate away. I think it's better and more accurate to speculate from what is in the movie than other sources.

 

[Surfinn]

Speculate away. I think it's better and more accurate to speculate from what is in the movie than other sources.

The other sources essentially have access to a script that might provide insight on which direction the saga goes from here. This is a short sighted perspective; why not embrace all possibilities?

Agree to disagree, then.

 

[QuantumZebra]

In regard to why Ren didn't bring it up during the fight.. there could be a million reasons why he doesn't tell her then. Maybe his pride/ego stood in the way of recognizing a (more) powerful light side user as kin? Maybe he wants to prove he can turn her on his own?



Right, but if there were "proof", there would be no point of theorizing or even having more episodes, in regard to the film's most glaring questions.

Until then, we speculate.. which has been the point from the beginning. And it doesn't matter if the info is coming from primary or secondary sources, since there is no proof of anything. They're all pieces of the puzzle, until we know more.



The popularity of "primary" or "secondary" sources is irrelevant. It's all canon until proven "guilty".

You're killing it with these replies - thanks for elaborating on what I couldn't

 

[LegendofLex]

The other sources essentially have access to a script that might provide insight on which direction the saga goes from here. This is a short sighted perspective; why not embrace all possibilities?

Well, in this particular discussion, one of those other sources (a member of the story group) is pointing to a very particular interpretation of a scene from another source (the novelization), and others are dismissing his interpretation out of hand. And that's what led to this discussion in the first place.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Well, in this particular discussion, one of those other sources (a member of the story group) is pointing to a very particular interpretation of a scene from another source (the novelization), and others are dismissing his interpretation out of hand.

I'm not dismissing it, but I'm taking it with a truckload of salt due to JJ misdirecting people, and the creators in general being very hush hush / "look this way!" about details.

My personal interpretation is simply Kylo realizing Rey is who he thought she was (Luke's daughter / his sister) - I doubt anything will change that till Ep. VIII.

 

[LegendofLex]

I'm not dismissing it, but I'm taking it with a truckload of salt due to JJ misdirecting people, and the creators in general being very hush hush / "look this way!" about details.

My personal interpretation is simply Kylo realizing Rey is who he thought she was (Luke's daughter / his sister) - I doubt anything will change that till Ep. VIII.

I guess my problem is that when I dismiss things that are said by the creators, it's because they're not believable in the first place (like R2 activating because BB-8 comes in contact with him despite zero audiovisual cues for this), not because I think it's worthwhile to heap salt on what's said by the people who control the story because hey maybe they're lying.

"Hey maybe they're lying" as a rule could be applied to literally anything we see or hear - in the films, in other works, by the creators - so I don't see it as a very good line of reasoning without a very specific reason (i.e. contradictory evidence) to believe that the information we've been given is false or flawed.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The other sources essentially have access to a script that might provide insight on which direction the saga goes from here.

I have access to the official script. There is nothing that hints that Kylo knows who Rey is.

And let's not forget what Del Rey Books, the publisher of the novelization has to say about it:

Del Rey Books

To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie.

Basically, the movies trumps the novelizations.

 

[Surfinn]

Well, in this particular discussion, one of those other sources (a member of the story group) is pointing to a very particular interpretation of a scene from another source (the novelization), and others are dismissing his interpretation out of hand. And that's what led to this discussion in the first place.

If it's being used in the future (not saying it WILL), why would they outright say "Yeah, nice catch! Stay tuned"?

The awakening could very well involve Rey and Ren's relationship/connection to each other.

I have access to the official script. There is nothing that hints that Kylo knows who Rey is.

And let's not forget what Del Rey Books, the publisher of the novelization has to say about it:

Del Rey Books


Basically, the movies trumps the novelizations.

You have access to the exact information given to the writers when they began their projects?

 

[LegendofLex]

If it's being used in the future (not saying it WILL), why would they outright say "Yeah, nice catch! Stay tuned"?

The awakening could very well involve Rey and Ren's relationship/connection to each other.

They could just not offer unsolicited tweets about it.

And anything could be true about future stories; the question is whether the information we've been given makes any of those possibilities especially likely or even already evident.

 

[Count Dookkake]

.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You have access to the exact information given to the writers when they began their projects?

I have access to the official script. And like the tweet said, the novelizations are canon so long as they line up with what is seen on the screen. This script is closest to what is seen on the screen.

 

[Surfinn]

Del Rey Books

You can see about 90% of all the comments there are asking for clarification, so there's obviously still a ton of confusion about what the original tweet means. It's a pretty damn vague thing to say.

Sorry if I'm missing something, but did he say the six movies (excluding TFA)?

They could just not offer unsolicited tweets about it.

And anything could be true about future stories; the question is whether the information we've been given makes any of those possibilities especially likely or even already evident.

And that tweet has left more questions than answers.

 

[radios shipping overview]

All we have to go off of is what is in the novels, and the details we can pull out of the film. I don't trust a word the creators have after the fact - they clearly want to keep it under wraps.

The way these things usually work is that non-film material is written in such a way that it fills in the gaps the films leave and stays pretty well out of the way of what might happen in future films. Given the filmmakers' control over information so far, I don't see Disney dropping easter eggs related to the trilogy's central conflicts into EU material before the films themselves are able to expand on them. I really doubt that the blanket "everything is canon" statement is going to change that any of that.

I think that Disney called everything canon in order to quasi-legitimize the EU material for marketing purposes and to simplify the tiered nonsense we ended up with before Disney. It's not going to give any priority to EU storytelling over film storytelling.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You can see about 90% of all the comments there are asking for clarification, so there's obviously still a ton of confusion about what the original tweet means. It's a pretty damn vague thing to say.

Sorry if I'm missing something, but did he say the six movies (excluding TFA)?

Doesn't seem vague to me. It's pretty straightforward. The movies holds precedence over their novelizations.

 

[Surfinn]

I have access to the official script. And like the tweet said, the novelizations are canon so long as they line up with what is seen on the screen. This script is closest to what is seen on the screen.

Don't you think it's possible that they were given something that differs from the official script, or things you don't have? Or even an earlier script?

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

I don't see anything about the film TFA or future movies there. Also, "where they align on screen" is pretty damn vague. The term "align" is vague as hell, as you can see in the million questions directly below the tweet. You can't ignore that confusion.

 

[LegendofLex]

And that tweet has left more questions than answers.

I think you'll notice that the only people really questioning the tweet are the ones who have a stake in disagreeing with what it's proposing.

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

I don't see anything about the film TFA or future movies there.

That's fine, we all know there's a split timeline in Star Wars between the future novelizations and movies whenever they contradict.

 

[freethought]

I honestly don't know how you can listen to the line reading of "What girl?" and not know that this means something to Ren.

On top of that, every other outburst from Ren was with the saber and seemed a bit forced, this was one of the few moments in the film where he actually forgets himself and starts channelling Vader.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Don't you think it's possible that they were given something that differs from the official script, or things you don't have? Or even an earlier script?

I do think it's possible, but I also know that they would give them updates. And this relationship between the filmmakers and the guy writing the novelization shows that the movie is higher on the hierarchy.

The film isn't coming form the novelization, the novelization is coming from the film.

 

[LegendofLex]

I honestly don't know how you can listen to the line reading of "What girl?" and not know that this means something to Ren.

On top of that, every other outburst from Ren was with the saber and seemed a bit forced, this was one of the few moments in the film where he actually forgets himself and starts channelling Vader.

There are only two scenes with Ren outbursts in the entire film, and this was the only one with someone present to direct it at. In the second one, approaching Stormtroopers turn and walk away, suggesting that they're pretty aware that they could be caught in his rage.

 

[mattp]

i can't believe people are arguing that stuff in the books can be used as proof of anything

guess what? if rian johnson decides he wants to do something in episode 8 and it contradicts something in the novel for episode 7, he's going to do it

the books mean nothing

 

[Surfinn]

I think you'll notice that the only people really questioning the tweet are the ones who have a stake in disagreeing with what it's proposing.



That's fine, we all know there's a split timeline in Star Wars between the future novelizations and movies whenever they contradict.

No, they're asking for clarification, as they should be. "align with" is understandably confusing. Do character thoughts for specific scenes align? Extra info that enhances Leia's position as general and the New Republic? Technically, the New Republic was shown on screen.. do you see where I'm going?

That's pretty vague.

 

[LegendofLex]

No, they're asking for clarification, as they should be. "align with" is understandably confusing. Do character thoughts for specific scenes align? Extra info that enhances Leia's position as general and the New Republic? Technically, the New Republic was shown on screen.. do you see where I'm going?

I think you misunderstand me.

I was referring to this tweet from Pablo Hidalgo about the line from the novelization that's being held up as evidence of Kylo knowing Rey:

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/680137218195734528

Reading a lot made of Kylo saying, "it is you," in the novel, but he says the same in the movie. Which is a callback to the awakening line.

I can forgive him for being mistaken about it appearing in the film, since Ep VII very clearly went through a lot of last minute changes and cuts to the theatrical version.

But he's offering a very specific interpretation about what it's referring to, and as his direct contribution to the discussion about what this line might mean.

And the only people who have additional questions about his tweet are the ones who have a stake in that line meaning more than he's telling us it means.

 

[heliosRAzi]

i can't believe people are arguing that stuff in the books can be used as proof of anything

guess what? if rian johnson decides he wants to do something in episode 8 and it contradicts something in the novel for episode 7, he's going to do it

the books mean nothing

Furthermore, if Rian Johnson contradicts the book, very few people will care. But if he contradicted TFA or the other movies, there would be a shitstorm unless it is properly justified.

 

[Surfinn]

i can't believe people are arguing that stuff in the books can be used as proof of anything

guess what? if rian johnson decides he wants to do something in episode 8 and it contradicts something in the novel for episode 7, he's going to do it

the books mean nothing

Not a single person is saying the extra info from the novelization is "proof" of anything, just that there could be hints towards directions the next films MAY take.

I think you misunderstand me.

I was referring to this tweet from Pablo Hidalgo about the line from the novelization that's being held up as evidence of Kylo knowing Rey:



I can forgive him for being mistaken about it appearing in the film, since Ep VII very clearly went through a lot of last minute changes and cuts to the theatrical version.

But he's offering a very specific interpretation about what it's referring to, and as his direct contribution to the discussion about what this line might mean.

In regard to THAT quote, I'd say it's already pretty shaky considering the guy is flat out wrong about Rey saying "the same" in the movie. He only says "the girl I've heard so much about", which has a different connotation from "it is you", ESPECIALLY given the context of that scene. Just because he's redirecting to the awakening doesn't mean there isn't a link between the awakening in the movie and Ren/Ren's connection/relationship to each other.

 

[LegendofLex]

In regard to THAT quote, I'd say it's already pretty shaky considering the guy is flat out wrong about Rey saying "the same" in the movie. He only says "the girl I've heard so much about", which has a different connotation from "it is you", ESPECIALLY given the context of that scene.

As far as I know, it's also a completely different scene.

Just because he's redirecting to the awakening doesn't mean there isn't a connection between the awakening in the movie and Ren/Ren's connection and relationship to each other.

Sure, but it means that there exists an official interpretation of that line that doesn't involve such a connection and that therefore the mere existence of the line doesn't actually have to confirm or point to a preexisting connection, which is what many people have argued when trying to push its significance (and, indeed, is what many people seem to be arguing anyway, dismissing the interpretation being offered by Hidalgo altogether).

 

[Fallout-with-swords]

i can't believe people are arguing that stuff in the books can be used as proof of anything

guess what? if rian johnson decides he wants to do something in episode 8 and it contradicts something in the novel for episode 7, he's going to do it

the books mean nothing

Well, the books are canon. So... they don't mean nothing.

And I highly doubt Rian Johnson has total creative control over Episode 8.

Not sure why everyone is starting to think Kylo doesn't know Rey. I'm not sure how you can watch the force choke scene and go away thinking he doesn't know her. Just felt pretty clear, to me, that that was the intent.

Reminds me of when I read a bunch of people thought BB8 was giving Flinn the finger instead of a thumbs up.

 

[Surfinn]

As far as I know, it's also a completely different scene.



Sure, but it means that there exists an official interpretation of that line that doesn't involve such a connection and that therefore the mere existence of the line doesn't actually have to confirm or point to a preexisting connection, which is what many people have argued when trying to push its significance.

Right, they are different scenes.

Well of course it doesn't have to be anything, just that it could, which is the only point I was ever trying to make in regard to the "it is you" line.

Was the twitter explanation responding to Rey being related to Ren, or just that Ren simply knows who she is?

And I'm not dismissing his explanation, just stating that it might not be not as conclusive as people might think.

Well, the books are canon. So... they don't mean nothing.

And I highly doubt Rian Johnson has total creative control over Episode 8.

Not sure why everyone is starting to think Kylo doesn't know Rey. I'm not sure how you can watch the force choke scene and go away thinking he doesn't know her. Just felt pretty clear, to me, that that was the intent.

Reminds me of when I read a bunch of people thought BB8 was giving Flinn the finger instead of a thumbs up.

Seemed pretty apparent to me too, but I've seen the movie six times.

 

[LegendofLex]

Right, they are different scenes.

Well of course it doesn't have to be anything, just that it could, which is the only point I was ever trying to make in regard to the "it is you" line.

Well, like I said, anything could be true, but the best (see: most evidence-based) theories are the ones that rely on the fewest possible assumptions, particularly when we've already been given sufficient explanations for the same things.

In regard to twitter explanation, was he responding to Rey being related to Ren, or just that Ren simply knows who she is?

He wasn't responding to anything in particular. "Reading a lot made" means he's looking at the general chatter; the explanation he gives winds up being much simpler and less cryptically future-looking than what most people were concluding.

So I'd say he's signaling that there's not necessarily any specific intent behind the line to signal either of those two things to the audience. (This may of course change by the time they come around to making the future films, but IMO that leaves it shaky ground on which to base a theory.)

In the end, when we've been given an explanation, trying to come up with other explanations sounds like tailoring the evidence to suit the theory, instead of tailoring the theory to suit the evidence.

 

[Surfinn]

Well, like I said, anything could be true, but the best (see: most evidence-based) theories are the ones that rely on the fewest possible assumptions, particularly when we've already been given sufficient explanations for the same things.



He wasn't responding to anything in particular. "Reading a lot made" means he's looking at the general chatter; the explanation he gives winds up being much simpler and less cryptically future-looking than what most people were concluding.

So I'd say he's signaling that there's not necessarily any specific intent behind the line to signal either of those two things to the audience. (This may of course change by the time they come around to making the future films, but IMO that leaves it shaky ground on which to base a theory.)

In the end, when we've been given an explanation, trying to come up with other explanations sounds like tailoring the evidence to suit the theory, instead of tailoring the theory to suit the evidence.

You can't reference the respose to "general chatter", especially with the explanation provided, and label it "sufficient" by any means, I think. Again, this (twitter comment) is a vague statement that creates more questions than answers (i.e. we have no idea what this "awakening" fully entails). But, such is the nature of a post TFA world.

Well with the nature of the way TFA was left, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a theory that doesn't rely on a shitload of assumption, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

And there won't be any theories using this as a "base", just as further evidence. But again, all theories (regarding TFA) are largely based on assumption, at this point.

 

[LegendofLex]

You can't reference the respose to "general chatter", especially with the explanation provided, and label it "sufficient" by any means, I think. Again, this (twitter comment) is a vague statement that creates more questions than answers. But, such is the nature of a post TFA world.

Why not?

He's basically saying, "There are lots of theories about this line from the book. It's actually a callback to this other thing from the movie." That's exactly what you'd expect from someone trying to clarify a point around which there's lots of chatter and confusion.

Again, the only people dismissing or downplaying that interpretation are the people whose theories it doesn't prop up.

Well with the nature of the way TFA was left, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a theory that doesn't rely on a shitload of assumption, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Sure, any theory requires you to arrive at conclusions that aren't already confirmed.

But to evaluate which theories are the best, you examine whether they're likely or not given the existing evidence. Some theories are less likely, and rely on more (less founded, unnecessary) assumptions.

Bertrand Russel's formula for deducing the most logical explanations is as follows: "Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities"

My reason for dismissing the interpretation that Ren is referring to some otherwise unknown connection to Rey is that all the evidence I've seen could be sufficiently explained based on other already-known elements of the narrative.

You simply don't need a Ren-Rey connection to resolve any of that evidence, or for any of it to make sense or have significance within the story.

And there won't be any theories using this as a "base", just as further evidence. But again, all theories (regarding TFA) are largely based on assumption, at this point.

I don't think anyone would give two craps about what the novelization says if the theory were just as evident from the film alone. They certainly wouldn't need to fight to preserve its perception as canon, since they wouldn't need it to support their theory.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Well, the books are canon. So... they don't mean nothing.

And I highly doubt Rian Johnson has total creative control over Episode 8.

Not sure why everyone is starting to think Kylo doesn't know Rey. I'm not sure how you can watch the force choke scene and go away thinking he doesn't know her. Just felt pretty clear, to me, that that was the intent.

Reminds me of when I read a bunch of people thought BB8 was giving Flinn the finger instead of a thumbs up.

Yea that's how I feel at this point, too. To me this stuff (Kylo knowing who Rey is by the end,also, Rey likely being Luke's daughter) seems obvious, like dead obvious.

Occams razor leads me to think that is the answer. Nothing else makes sense without ridiculous theories (Rey is Anakin reborn, etc..)

 

[QuantumZebra]

Wow I just found this: http://bgr.com/2016/01/05/star-wars-force-awakens-kylo-ren-murder/

So apparently Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were not at the Jedi Temple in that scene in the rain... it was likely a recovery of Vader's helmet or another artifact.

That definitely makes a lot more sense rolling with the notion of Rey being Luke's daughter and at the Temple when Kylo Ren killed the Jedi.

To me it seemed a big stretch in age difference for Rey to be 19 and have been 7 during the slaughter - meaning that Ren would have to be at least say 16 years old to do what he did, so ~9 years older than Rey - but then I doubted that a 16 year old Kylo would have an assembled (if shoddy) lightsaber and a full cohort of Knights with him.

This makes a lot more sense. The rain / Knights scene came a while after the Temple slaughter.

 

[prag16]

Yes, all new content is equally canon, but the novelization of the films are unique in that there they are adaptations of the story and have additions/contradictions/scenes based on deleted or scrapped scenes from the film. In these cases you must defer to the movie. The movies trump all.

Contradictions, sure. But additions and extra scenes (some of which may not even be scrapped scenes from the film) and things like internal monologues of characters, what reason have we to throw those out until directly contradicted?

Novelizations of films almost always have a ton of extra stuff.

 

[-griffy-]

Contradictions, sure. But additions and extra scenes (some of which may not even be scrapped scenes from the film) and things like internal monologues of characters, what reason have we to throw those out until directly contradicted?

Novelizations of films almost always have a ton of extra stuff.

That's....exactly what I'm saying. To clarify, stuff that doesn't contradict the movies can exist along side it as canon. In the event any of those additions or extra scenes or internal monologues contradict the film, or anything in a future film, you defer to the movie over the adapted novelizations.

 

[prag16]

That's....exactly what I'm saying. In the event any of those additions or extra scenes or internal monologues contradict the film, or anything in a future film, you defer to the movie over the adapted novelizations.

Eh, you and especially Helios earlier seemed to be adamant that ALL that stuff (even aspects that didn't contradict anything to this point) need to be automatically dismissed. Helios also seemed confused for a while on what constitutes a contradiction.

Stuff like that can be construed as "having a stake" in a certain outcome too. The pro-family "side" doesn't have a monopoly on being invested or having a stake.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Eh, you and especially Helios earlier seemed to be adamant that ALL that stuff (even aspects that didn't contradict anything to this point) need to be automatically dismissed. Helios also seemed confused for a while on what constitutes a contradiction.

The novelization says the Kylo says something, the movie does not. That's a contradiction. Kylo Ren doesn't say "It is you" in the movie.

 

[QuantumZebra]

The novelization says the Kylo says something, the movie does not. That's a contradiction. Kylo Ren doesn't say "It is you" in the movie.

How... how many more times can we go over this?

A contradiction would be if Kylo Ren says "Holy Shit!" when Rey pulls the saber in the movie, and in the novel he says "It is you"

The movie does not show a contradiction.

I don't know how many more times I can type this out - the novel says: "It is you", he murmured.

He murmured.

That means that he said it to himself. Like, it would make 0 sense at all to even hear him say it offscreen when Rey pulls the saber (not to mention jarring) - because he *murmured* it.



(At this point and how many pages we've gone over this, I'm starting to think that the revelation of him saying this doesn't jive with your headcanon / theory of what happened, so you're just trying to go around it if at all possible, which is totally ok, but jeez at least tell me to stop repeating myself).

 

[-griffy-]

Eh, you and especially Helios earlier seemed to be adamant that ALL that stuff (even aspects that didn't contradict anything to this point) need to be automatically dismissed. Helios also seemed confused for a while on what constitutes a contradiction.

Stuff like that can be construed as "having a stake" in a certain outcome too. The pro-family "side" doesn't have a monopoly on being invested or having a stake.

The first thing I said about this was:

Novelization is canon except where it contradicts the movie, or any future movie. Movies supersede all.

That has remained my position, and I don't know how much clearer or simpler I could make it.

 

[heliosRAzi]

How... how many more times can we go over this?

As many times it will take for you to understand

A contradiction would be if Kylo Ren says "Holy Shit!" when Rey pulls the saber in the movie, and in the novel he says "It is you"

The movie does not show a contradiction.

The movie shows a contradiction because it does not show him saying anything. He doesn't utter, mutter, or murmur.

I don't know how many more times I can type this out - the novel says: "It is you", he murmured.

He murmured.

That means that he said it to himself. Like, it would make 0 sense at all to even hear him say it offscreen when Rey pulls the saber (not to mention jarring) - because he *murmured* it.

Movies have off-screen dialogue all of the time. It's noted specifically in the scripts if something is meant to be said off-screen. It is not unusual. It would've even be jarring if the director handles it correctly. It doesn't matter if an atomic bomb is exploding right next to them, if the director or writer wants something to be heard at that moment, it will be heard. Apparently, it wasn't important enough to consider since it is left out.

So what if the novelization says that he murmurs it? The movie is not based on the novel. This movie is not an adaptation of the novel. It is the reverse. The novel can add whatever it wants to it and it will have no bearing on the franchise. The film relies more on the script than a novelization and the script does not have any hints or indications that Kylo is saying "It is you." If they wanted a specific react from the actor, it would say something like "The lightsaber flies into Rey's hand. Kylo is astonished: it is her!" But it doesn't do that. When it shows him lighting his saber, he doesn't say anything. So many places they could put that line, but they don't.

(At this point and how many pages we've gone over this, I'm starting to think that the revelation of him saying this doesn't jive with your headcanon / theory of what happened,

It doesn't jive with what is happening on the screen. We cannot reasonably infer that Kylo is muttering "It is you" to himself since there is no evidence for it. Make no mistake, this is entirely your headcanon that Kylo says this in the movie. You even tried to justify it by saying that it's too loud and it would ruin the pacing, but if it is such an important detail, it or hints to it would have been left in. The movie trumps the novelization, a product -- by its very nature -- is secondary to its source. The next movies can contradict what happens in the novelization to hell and back without justification and no one will care. The movies, however, are more immutable. Contradict the movies and you better have a good justification for it.

Kylo does not say "It is you" in the movie.

 

[Solo]

The fuck are you guys still arguing about?

 

[Lifejumper]

The fuck are you guys still arguing about?

Word.

 

[wesleyshark]

Kylo does not say "It is you" in the movie.

He didn't have to. He murmured it to himself in the novelization.

There is no contradiction. Move on already.

 

[QuantumZebra]

As many times it will take for you to understand


The movie shows a contradiction because it does not show him saying anything. He doesn't utter, mutter, or murmur.


Movies have off-screen dialogue all of the time. It's noted specifically in the scripts if something is meant to be said off-screen. It is not unusual. It would've even be jarring if the director handles it correctly. It doesn't matter if an atomic bomb is exploding right next to them, if the director or writer wants something to be heard at that moment, it will be heard. Apparently, it wasn't important enough to consider since it is left out.

So what if the novelization says that he murmurs it? The movie is not based on the novel. This movie is not an adaptation of the novel. It is the reverse. The novel can add whatever it wants to it and it will have no bearing on the franchise. The film relies more on the script than a novelization and the script does not have any hints or indications that Kylo is saying "It is you." If they wanted a specific react from the actor, it would say something like "The lightsaber flies into Rey's hand. Kylo is astonished: it is her!" But it doesn't do that. When it shows him lighting his saber, he doesn't say anything. So many places they could put that line, but they don't.


It doesn't jive with what is happening on the screen. We cannot reasonably infer that Kylo is muttering "It is you" to himself since there is no evidence for it. Make no mistake, this is entirely your headcanon that Kylo says this in the movie. You even tried to justify it by saying that it's too loud and it would ruin the pacing, but if it is such an important detail, it or hints to it would have been left in. The movie trumps the novelization, a product -- by its very nature -- is secondary to its source. The next movies can contradict what happens in the novelization to hell and back without justification and no one will care. The movies, however, are more immutable. Contradict the movies and you better have a good justification for it.

Kylo does not say "It is you" in the movie.

I'm starting to think you're trolling.

That or you truly do not understand the words you're using.

Let me explain some basic definitions to you:

mur·mur
ˈmərmər/Submit
noun
1.
a soft, indistinct sound made by a person or group of people speaking quietly or at a distance.
"his voice was little more than a murmur"

con·tra·dic·tion
ˌkäntrəˈdikSH(&#601n/
noun
a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.

Now - one last time for you:


Kylo Ren is NOT contradicting the novel at the end of the movie. You do not have time during that scene to see his reaction AT ALL other than the moment of the lightsaber flying past him. In the novel he "murmured" the phrase "It is you" to himself, which means that he quietly said it to himself, IE thinking out loud.

Do you get it yet? You have no clue at all what he said to himself in the movie - you don't get to see his reaction.

That is NOT a contradiction of the novel.

The novel states that is what he said to himself, and the movie does ***NOT*** contradict that because you don't even see his reaction, just him dodging the saber as Rey pulls it past him.

The word you're looking for is they *omitted* the scene of showing his face/reaction to Rey igniting the saber - that does NOT mean he didn't say it - it means that they left out his reaction (purposefully I might add, as that line would make things far too obvious - you seem to be operating under the assumption that the novel creators didn't talk to / work with JJ at all).

That aside, I don't know how many more times you need this explained to you. The novel is canon (Side note: the Star Wars universe takes what is *canon* pretty seriously as this is a billion dollar franchise with rabid fanboys ready to tear things apart at any turn). Unless the movie contradicts the novel, it happened. The movie does not contradict the novel in this case, so it happened.


Just because you don't see it happen in the film doesn't mean it never happened, and that is what you're trying to infer here. We never get to see Snoke telling Kylo about Vader - but you have no problem accepting that happened. If this statement by him does not jive with your headcanon, then again, sorry.

He didn't have to. He murmured it to himself in the novelization.

There is no contradiction. Move on already.

^

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

So this is tangential, but coming out of the theater I wondered why Snoke needed to be cgi rather than a costume, and my friend who was watching with me made the comparison to Gollum in the LOTR movies. Which brings me to the question: why was Gollum fully cgi rather than a costume? Like, what were the major benefits of this approach?

 

[Interfectum]

Hey, here are some bloopers/behind the scenes from the Undercover Boss Starkiller Base SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3mGQAFS6I

Is this canon?

 

[numble]

I agree that Occam's Razor should lead everyone to conclude that the movie contradicts the novelization.