Yes, all new content is equally canon, but the novelization of the films are unique in that there they are adaptations of the story and have additions/contradictions/scenes based on deleted or scrapped scenes from the film. In these cases you must defer to the movie. The movies trump all.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Yes, all new content is equally canon, but the novelization of the films are unique in that there they are adaptations of the story and have additions/contradictions/scenes based on deleted or scrapped scenes from the film. In these cases you must defer to the movie. The movies trump all.
Ahh, that makes sense. Does anyone know if it is stated anywhere that the main planet they showed destroyed was Coruscant? Or has it remained unnamed?
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Rey is going to be Palpatine's Granddaughter.
My evidence:
- in the flashback young Rey was left with the Junk merchant (can't remember his name). This same junk merchant contacted the Empire about the droid. Why would Luke leave Rey with someone that has empire ties? (biggest hint).
- After she calls on the force in the Kylo fight, her fighting turns brutal. She almost looks like she is stalking around him, and enjoying her coming victory (like a sith)
- Luke is very startled, almost sad (a little fearful?), to see her.
- Rey uses a staff, like a former apprentice to Palpatine... (meant to be a hint)
Here is what I think went down:
Palpatine (Palpy) had a son that Vader never knew about. He was secretly training his son to eventually overthrow Vader. The son had a flaw, he was naturally a good person, and never really develops into the sith Palpy wanted.
After Palpy's death the son goes on with his life in secret and marries a woman. They eventually have a child late in life that has ridiculous force sensitivity (Rey). They take her to Luke for training, since he is the only Jedi and has started a school, but he immediately recognizes who they are and who Rey is.
Luke refuses to train Rey and a Republic official catches wind that this family is related to Palpy. The republic starts hunting the family and they ask the First Order for asylum. Snoke grants them asylum but really just wants Palpatine's granddaughter.
After finding out Snoke's plans for Rey, Palpy's son takes her to Jakku and leaves her with the random junk dealer who doesn't know anything about Rey or Palpy's son.
This pisses Snoke off who tortures Palpy's son in attempt to get Rey's location. Palpy's son dies, along with his wife, at the hands of Snoke and never gives up his daughters location.
Snoke knows she is still out there and even tells Kylo about it. That's why Kylo seemingly knows about Rey.
The lightsaber isn't so much reacting to a Skywalker as it is reacting to a strong force user. Force visions come to all force users, not just Skywalkers, and they are not tied to devices afaik. The saber had some latent force enregy that triggered the vision inside of Rey, the saber itself didn't give her the visions.
My evidence:
- in the flashback young Rey was left with the Junk merchant (can't remember his name). This same junk merchant contacted the Empire about the droid. Why would Luke leave Rey with someone that has empire ties? (biggest hint).
- After she calls on the force in the Kylo fight, her fighting turns brutal. She almost looks like she is stalking around him, and enjoying her coming victory (like a sith)
- Luke is very startled, almost sad (a little fearful?), to see her.
- Rey uses a staff, like a former apprentice to Palpatine... (meant to be a hint)
Here is what I think went down:
Palpatine (Palpy) had a son that Vader never knew about. He was secretly training his son to eventually overthrow Vader. The son had a flaw, he was naturally a good person, and never really develops into the sith Palpy wanted.
After Palpy's death the son goes on with his life in secret and marries a woman. They eventually have a child late in life that has ridiculous force sensitivity (Rey). They take her to Luke for training, since he is the only Jedi and has started a school, but he immediately recognizes who they are and who Rey is.
Luke refuses to train Rey and a Republic official catches wind that this family is related to Palpy. The republic starts hunting the family and they ask the First Order for asylum. Snoke grants them asylum but really just wants Palpatine's granddaughter.
After finding out Snoke's plans for Rey, Palpy's son takes her to Jakku and leaves her with the random junk dealer who doesn't know anything about Rey or Palpy's son.
This pisses Snoke off who tortures Palpy's son in attempt to get Rey's location. Palpy's son dies, along with his wife, at the hands of Snoke and never gives up his daughters location.
Snoke knows she is still out there and even tells Kylo about it. That's why Kylo seemingly knows about Rey.
The lightsaber isn't so much reacting to a Skywalker as it is reacting to a strong force user. Force visions come to all force users, not just Skywalkers, and they are not tied to devices afaik. The saber had some latent force enregy that triggered the vision inside of Rey, the saber itself didn't give her the visions.
The movie states it is the Hosnian system. The planet with the Senate that we see up close is Hosnian Prime. Coruscant stopped being the capitol and seat of the Senate after the Rebellion won in Return of the Jedi.
Is there a link stating the novels aren't as canon? Because that seems like a weird thing to say.
heliosRAzi
Banned
This. This. This. This. This.
Even then, if the movie contradicts something in the comics or books, the movie will take precedence since that is the bread and butter.
And so far we have nothing in the novel which contradicts the movie right?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Finn is sliced on his chest instead of back. Rey has a thing for Poe in the novel, but they don't interact in the movie at all. In the film, the Jedi are seen as myths while the novel implies that they're only a myth on Jakku.
Interesting, thank you. See where we get into trouble though? It is you might be considered canon to some but not others. In the novel, was this a thought or spoken out loud?
CloudyTuba
Member
Oh, plenty. Just about every bit of dialogue is slightly or significantly different. Scenes happen differently as well, sometimes insignificantly and sometimes blatantly not the same. Character thoughts and motivations are sometimes altered, the list goes on.
Just about the only thing you can take as canon from the book are details surrounding confirmed filmed but deleted scenes, and physical attributes of objects. For instance, the book elaborates that the reason why Finn/Poe's escape TIE fighter did not explode when hit was because it was a special forces TIE fighter which is made more tough than the standard variant.
Indeed if you pay attention you can see that the models used in the movie are actually different beyond a paint job. Particularly around the engines and the connection between the "wings" and the struts. The normal TIE fighters are actually very similar to Imperial TIE fighters in most ways except that their ion engines are mounted vertically instead of horizontally. Special Forces have thicker wing connections and beefier looking engines mounted horizontally.
Beyond stuff like that, the book is really not a reliable source when compared to the movie. There are many times I stop and think "No..the actor's performance doesnt support this idea at all, and that wasnt in the movie. Technically you could squeeze it in between scenes maybe, but that just...doesnt even fit what I saw."
QuantumZebra
Member
double post pls delete
QuantumZebra
Member
double post! delete
Lifejumper
Member
Rey was dropped off on Jakku, before the attack. Why would he do that?
QuantumZebra
Member
I don't think anyone is saying it won't make sense, It's simply that given all the cues and symbolism, Occam's Razor suggests that she is Luke's daughter. There's no other sensible explanation that doesn't require playing mental gymnastics, IMO.
Jedi have the ability to suppress others memories/mind-wipe them in a lot of interpretations.
My take is Luke mind-wiped her after Kylo went batshit and her mother hid her away while Luke was on the run. Her mother joined Luke on the planet he ran to and died there, hence him standing by what looks to be a grave at the end.
No one is saying that - we're going off what Kathleen Kennedy explicitly stated, "The main saga of Star Wars (the numbered trilogies) are about the Skywalker lineage".
No other explanation makes as much sense nor holds as much water.
QuantumZebra
Member
That IMO isn't just a Sith thing. Dark side users eat their own. Palpatine essentially abandoned the rule of two (had multiple apprentices) and was always trying to upgrade/prevent them from usurping his power.
LegendofLex
Member
Technically, Occam's Razor should only lead us to conclude that she's related to Luke in some way. That she's his offspring (just one of several potential relationships) is an assumption at this point based on no direct evidence (though perhaps the easiest to accept without evidence).
heliosRAzi
Banned
So basically the movie trumps the novelization.
QuantumZebra
Member
I just go a step further - being that no other relation seems to make sense. Her Force visions are Luke's memories, she dreams of where Luke is (see: Ren's interrogation of her), and everything about her journey from the start is an homage/play on Luke.
I can't think of anything else she could be ... his sister? No. His niece/Ren's sister? Possible, but highly unlikely (requires more gymnastics). His... granddaughter? Chronologically nonsensical. A family friend? Wouldn't explain her overpowering Ren for a piece of the Skywalker lineage (with strong Sword in the Stone symbolism), nor the strong ties to Luke.
Only when they contradict. The movie doesn't contradict Kylo Ren muttering "It Is You" to himself when Rey pulls the saber past him - you don't even see his reaction but for a split second. It would really throw off the impact of the scene in the film for them to pause and have him talk to himself for a second. Ergo they don't contradict, they just left it out for pacing and strength of scene. Just like a lot of other canon material from the novels was cut (along with scenes of the film).
You keep bringing up Rey liking Poe as a contradiction as well, but again all she does in the novels is note that he is handsome (cause he's gorgeous). That doesn't contradict anything in the movie - we don't know what is going on in her head or in scenes where she interacted with Poe.
I just addressed this above - I think it simply got cut due to the fact that it would really disrupt the flow of the scene.
Thanks. So now we're stuck in the grey area of thought. Did Ren think or speak "it is you"?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I feel like Kylo Ren had a Sheldon Cooper moment because he knew he was going to make the choice already. I watched it twice now and I still feel like he was trying to allude Solo. Not that it matters, but I think Kylo knew he would become more powerful once his training with Snoke was complete and the darkness that happened in the sky was a message or a way of telling Kylo that he had more power on its way.
Doesn't matter why it was cut. It's not in the movie so it didn't happen. It's plausible they cut it for the very reason this discussion keeps going, since it was too ambiguous a line and they didn't want the unneeded confusion it would bring. As far as the movies are concerned, Kylo Ren didn't say "It is you."
The only thing you can say of the line in the novel is that it's interesting, since it may be hinting at something left unstated in the movie and may not be. But since it's not in the movie, it's nothing but a curiosity until a future movie embraces it or contradicts it. It's entirely possible they could change their mind about Rey's lineage and/or Kylo's relationship to Rey in a future movie since they only have a broad plan and are writing them on a movie-by-movie basis. The novelizations may travel farther down the paths of ideas than the movies are willing to commit to, due to the timing of when all of these things are written, and as such may find themselves on a weak branch when the movies ultimately decide on a different branch altogether. It's because of these scenarios that the movies trump the novelizations.
LegendofLex
Member
She gets the visions when picking up Luke's lightsaber.
The visions can easily be interpreted simply as the path that led the lightsaber to her - from Bespin (where it was first lost), to the sacking of Luke's academy (which is likely what led to Rey being left on Jakku based on the chronology of the vision), to Rey being left on Jakku to get swept up by the events of the film.
I think it's rather telling that it starts with Bespin and not with Obi-Wan's hut, the place where the lightsaber was first passed to Luke.
Yeah, she's clearly from a successor generation.
Not... really? Because Han/Leia never acknowledge the relationship during the film? Wouldn't that be equally problematic if she's their niece? Is there some other hurdle that I'm not aware of?
The movie goes out of its way to intentionally hide any conversations either of them could have even possibly had about her origins, with the scene in Maz's pub cutting away from Han when she asks him who Rey is, and with Leia's first mention of Rey referencing a conversation between her and Han that also happened off-screen.
So there's some significance to Rey that's at least known to Han and probably to Leia, but we don't know what it is, and it seems pretty obvious that they don't intend to let anything on to Rey. It's very probably a familial relationship, but that doesn't necessarily push toward any particular relationship - daughter or niece - if in either case they're compelled for whatever reason to hide this from her.
Some people point to the suggestions that Rey is inheriting the lightsaber from Luke as the reason why they're sure she must be his daughter. But so far that's the only concrete thing that makes a Luke relationship particularly likely vs. a Leia one (and, indeed, Rey could be inheriting the lightsaber through her connection to Anakin/Luke on Leia's side). Inheriting Force sensitivity obviously doesn't favor either Luke or Leia.
Rey actually inherits the most from Han: the blaster he gives her (with a warning that she has a lot to learn, which positions her as following in his footsteps), his mechanical knowledge of the Falcon (the film draws direct parallels between her and Han in this department), as well as the Falcon and Chewie by the end of the film.
Suffice to say I think the film hasn't closed off either of the major possibilities for a familial relationship (either through Luke or through Leia/Han) yet. And I think that no matter what the final outcome is, the film is deliberately trying to suggest bits of both and in the end one of those options will have been misdirection.
I don't think this means anything other than that she's stronger with the Force than Kylo, and in the context of the duel - with Kylo being physically and emotionally scarred and Rey finally overcoming her own baggage - it's sufficient to examine that moment by looking at the two characters' development.
heliosRAzi
Banned
The novelization is canon so long as it aligns with the movie. The "It is you" is not aligned with the movie. Therefore, it is not canon. So are all of the other inconsistencies and differences. They are not basing the next movie off of the novelization of TFA, but on the film.
QuantumZebra
Member
But.... that's not how this works, lol.
There's a TON of scenes in the novels that aren't in the movie (Republic reps going to meet with Leia, exposition about the world and the galaxy, etc...) - that isn't just "not canon" because its not in the film.
Just like deleted scenes in the movie - it is canon unless specifically said otherwise - it just didn't make final editing for the sake of the film's pacing, strength of scenes, etc...
You can't just dismiss everything not in the movies just because they're not in the movies - all forms of media post-merger put out by Disney are canon - they said so themselves. The only time they are not is when they conflict with the movies - which Kylo saying "It Is You" under his breath in the saber scene does not conflict at all. He simply said it to himself off screen, as it flashed to Rey the instant she pulled the saber to her.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Deleted scenes are not canon. If those are, then deleted pages in comics and books are also canon.
Show me where in the movie he says "It is you." Show me.
Essentially, you're saying that the novelization is more important than the movie.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Even ignoring all these technicalities of canon, I'm not at all interested in reading a novelization to be able to fully discuss the main story of friggin' Star Wars. That's just annoying.
QuantumZebra
Member
The deleted scenes that are unnecessary exposition are canon. They deleted tons of scenes that involved Leia meeting with Republic leaders, etc... that are still canon (otherwise the mythology behind the movie isn't canon at all and thereby the universe itself isn't canon, lol).
Just because they didn't include a pause scene to show Kylo saying that doesn't mean it didn't happen - the editing cut away from him too fast for anything to be shown.
I mean I get what you're trying to say, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You can't just dismiss canon novelization because it wasn't in the movie.
Otherwise the entire dialogue of Snoke explaining Vader's failure to Kylo never happened, so Kylo has no knowledge of Vader's past or anything else. Sorry, that just doesn't add up nor does it make sense.
That's just how Star Wars rolls. You won't know what happened in between ROTJ and TFA if you don't read Aftermath and the other novels, not to mention a bunch of other details.
I don't know what y'all are expecting here - you want the movie to be a 1:1 of the book? Then we'd end up with another Prequel-movie .... asstons of dialogue and exposition that completely deflates the impact, pacing, and feel of the film.
heliosRAzi
Banned
So what you're saying is that the novel trumps the movie. Like I said earlier, it all flows from the movies.
It's not a reasonable inference to assume that Kylo said something at that moment given the information in the movie. He did not say "It is you."
That never happened in the movie -- however, since we can see that Kylo has a huge hardon for his grandfather, we can reasonably infer that he knows what Anakin has done.
Do you think that the book came first?
Trigonometrize.
Member
Adaptions should not be considered canon IMO. This whole situation seals the deal for me. As a fan of the Star Wars movies, the original medium, I feel we should be treated like literally the only things that matter and everything comes second. That sounds super selfish on paper but it's totally fair IMO. There are several nuances in this silly book that I shouldn't have to care about but now I do and it's obnoxious.
I think I agree with this, to an extent. On one hand, I would think that a deleted scene isn't automatically canon, as it could just be bad or poorly executed material that was purposefully left out. On the other hand, deleted scenes could have been cut, like you said, to make a complete movie that isn't overstuffed or bogged down with content/exposition. Seems like there's a lot of grey area with the canonization of the universe. Like, when the video of TFA is released, will there be debate about whether or not particular deleted scenes are canon? Or will they now be officially canon after they are released in the video release?
Regardless of whether or not people view the novelization as canon, it's important to remember that cut material may be reintroduced in future episodes. We shouldn't just throw it all away because it didn't make it into TFA, but instead consider it moving forward with theory crafting/possible backstory and expansion of content.
QuantumZebra
Member
Maybe he just thought Vader looked cool and made up some head-canon story to back up him being the awesome bad guy to look up to? See where this is going?
You can't just infer that and then disregard him saying that to himself in the novels.
Again - unless the movie contradicts it - it is canon. The movie does not contradict him saying that, it just cuts to Rey almost instantly. Therefore you infer that he thinks it to himself as it is happening, just as you can infer that Snoke informed Kylo of Vader's fall and failure. There is 0 reason to think otherwise.
^^^
Precisely my point. In the absence of contradictory scenes/exposition - you go with the canon media that is presented by Disney.
In terms of deleted scenes - I would think (unless it is a gag reel) they will include all deleted scenes that would be considered canon still, but which were cut for pacing/editing reasons.
Can we infer Kylo knows Vader's ultimate fate from the movies (redeeming himself and saving his son)? No, but we can from the novelization. But, until we know more information (from future episodes), isn't it impossible to say if he actually knows how Vader died? That's a juicy bit of info to be left up to a question mark.
Kylo was a student of Luke's. While I'm sure a bunch of historical logs were changed to fit the Imperial agenda, you think Luke couldn't have learned more about his dad? Not to mention talking to the literal ghost of his father about what happened...
You think he wouldn't talk to his force-sensitive nephew about it?
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's a contradiction because Kylo never says it in the movie. It's not a reasonable inference to assume that he says something. And who the camera focuses on doesn't necessarily mean we only hear that only person.
Hey, here's a fun quote that didn't make it into the upcoming American Cinematographer issue about The Force Awakens, via StarWars.com:
heliosRAzi
Banned
Yes, because he was Luke's student.
It was never stated in the movie that Ren directly learned about Vader's redeption. But I would hope Luke told him, as his student.
Shit, for all we know, Luke told him and Snoke convinced Ren Luke twisted the truth to train new Jedi under a lie.
QuantumZebra
Member
I don't think you've been reading my posts thoroughly.
In the novel, it goes: "It is you", he murmured" - you're not going to hear him murmuring to himself during a climactic battle sequence with a planet collapsing. He said it in the novel, therefore he said it to himself in the movie - it just wasn't shown. If he had of said something entirely different (or anything at all) during that scene, THEN it would be a contradiction.
We're specifically talking about what is in the novel -> film, not just fanfic - but going off your statement:
In the movie, Leia and Han state that they sent him off to Luke because they were worried he "had too much Vader in him" - I highly doubt that under those circumstances, Luke would want to go further into detail about ol' Anakin. Since there is no reference of this yet in the new novels, then we cannot infer it. That doesn't mean its not possible that he told Kylo, though. I'm going off of the novel detailing that it was Snoke who told Kylo.
It is also highly doubtful there are any records of what happened on Death Star 2 since the whole thing was blown to hell (Luke barely got off it - hence why Han asks Leia if she thinks Luke survived) - I doubt Luke was running around telling the world what happened up there, either. He isn't exactly the boasting/storytelling type.
--
Talking about this now has me wondering how Snoke knew what happened on DS2 in ROTJ. Did he sense the events through the Force? If he is Plagueis, that would make sense - he sensed the events (or foresaw them) relating to his former apprentice.
So this is what Pablo Hidalgo says about the "It is you" line
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/680137218195734528
Basically that line is canon but it's referring to the Awakening, not Kylo knowing who Rey is.
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/680137218195734528
Basically that line is canon but it's referring to the Awakening, not Kylo knowing who Rey is.
heliosRAzi
Banned
The director will have you hear whatever he or she wants you to hear regardless of environmental sounds.
LegendofLex
Member
I think the resistance you're seeing from people is that, should they choose to go the route where there's a preexisting relationship between Kylo and Rey, whatever they do to introduce this to us in the films at this point is not going to lean on the significance of a line of dialogue that was not present on-screen in the film version of The Force Awakens.
So, whether it's going to be relevant later or not, people aren't willing to use it as evidence of anything that will have any real impact on the trajectory of the later films.
Ah, ok, thank you for this. In that case, it makes the conversation between Ren and Snoke seem even more believable (in the novelization), in terms of canon.
heliosRAzi
Banned
This. This. This. This. This.
They're not going to use the novelization as the source, they're going to use the film. They're going to build on the hints presented in the film, not in the novelization.
QuantumZebra
Member
Just like Finn was a Jedi, and R2 woke up because of BB-8 showing up at the end with the map, according to JJ (even though BB-8 showed up to him with the map earlier in the film) - they sure love their misdirects.
That is exactly how it works (also someone just confirmed it was canon from the post above, albeit with a red herring interpretation).
I agree that there is no reason to lean on the novels when all this will be cleared up in Ep. VIII anyway. However all we have to work off of for possibilities is what is considered canon right now - that being the novel, the corresponding prequel books (Aftermath, Lost Stars, etc...), and the film. So until it is contradicted in further media, it is canon.
Thank you. I don't understand why people need to rail against discussing possibilities based on the novel (which is canon unless contradicted by the movie).
Well doesn't the novel build off of an early script? In that case, the future movies might build off of a direction the script was going, but ultimately cut and reserved for future content. Which means the novelization could have started in that direction, but doesn't mean it's content is bogus or that the "it is you" line isn't (potentially) highly significant.
I believe you believe this is how it works.
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