QuantumZebra
Member
So you're telling me the novels, which Disney has explicitly stated are canon, are not canon?
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
So you're telling me the novels, which Disney has explicitly stated are canon, are not canon?
Why is everyone pointing to Rey being the literal awakening? The film is called The Force Awakens, not The Scavenger Awakens. Surely Rey's actions are directly involved in the force awakening, but she is not the sole reason for what the entire awakening is actually about and why it's happening. Snoke actually says in the first teaser that there has been an awakening for the DARK SIDE and the light.
So I'm not sure why people keep pointing to ONLY Rey when referencing the awakening. I seriously doubt "it is you" just refers to PART of the awakening. Doesn't sit right with me.
So I'm not sure why people keep pointing to ONLY Rey when referencing the awakening. I seriously doubt "it is you" just refers to PART of the awakening. Doesn't sit right with me.
Hey, here are some bloopers/behind the scenes from the Undercover Boss Starkiller Base SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3mGQAFS6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3mGQAFS6I
heliosRAzi
Banned
He doesn't say that in the movie.
QuantumZebra
Member
I seriously have no idea at all.
People are rolling with the tweet from the DelRay books saying it is about the awakening like we haven't had tons of red herrings thrown at us already (BB-8 waking up R2 when it was clearly Rey's presence, Finn being a Jedi, etc...).
If you actually think about it, it makes way less sense for Kylo to refer to her as "The Awakening" (that just sounds completely stupid) - vs. Kylo realizing she is who he thought she was (Luke's daughter/his cousin, or his sister)
I know. But that doesn't mean that line isn't relevant or shouldn't be examined.
heliosRAzi
Banned
If it was relevant, it would've stayed in the movie. That's not to say it won't be in the future, but at the moment, it doesn't matter.
QuantumZebra
Member
According to Helios, if its not in the movie it isn't canon and should never be discussed, as far as I can tell.
He/she must be reeeeaaalllyyy new to the SW universe.
heliosRAzi
Banned
No one is saying that she is The Awakening as if that is a title or name. They're saying that she is the cause of this awakening.
So teasers are canon now? Are the coloring books?
I think the film is very clearly about Rey's awakening, and that is what the film title refers to.
The awakening was sensed by Kylo and Snoke immediately after Rey pilots the Falcon, in a way even she didn't know she could. It's the central development of the film. I've always thought of the full title as being "The Force Awakens Rey".
THIS is the train of thought that's my focus. Of course it matters, why wouldn't it? This is the first line of dialogue we hear from the entire project, so surely it's relevant (doesn't mean it cannot be abandoned, of course). Just because it's not in this movie doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it moving forward.
This type of thinking is extremely shortsighted and really hampers theory crafting and.. simply the fun of not knowing what happens next.
Or it means being realistic about how the filmmaking process works.
Punchy4486
Banned
Right, like how Darth Vader turned out to be Luke's father? Because we all would have known that for certain having seen A New Hope.
How does it work, exactly?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Because it wasn't left in the movie.
I knew JJ and Kojima knew each other, but I didn't think he'd get a (small) cameo in it.
QuantumZebra
Member
1. Her being the "cause" of the awakening doesn't make any sense. She didn't turn a light switch on in the Force. I think it is very clearly implied that the awakening is the Force coming alive in some people (I don't think Rey is the only force-sensitive around who was a benefactor of it).
2. Anything that doesn't contradict the movies is canon - even the coloring books. Period. I didn't say this, Disney did.
You keep acting like they would just throw anything relevant to the story into the film - do you know what that would mean? We would get an exposition/dialogue filled shitshow the length of Return of the King (LOTR). If that's what you want then... hell idk.
I don't think they know what they want, lol.
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Also, the Kojima thing is awesome lol, it explains the pic of JJ and Kojima together
See my above post. Do you see what I mean about being open minded for theory crafting?
It's not just as simple as "but this wasn't in the previous episode"..
Let's apply this logic to The Empire Strikes Back. Well, since Obi-Wan tells Luke Vader killed his father, there's absolutely no way he could ever be Luke's father. Even though he looks super hesitant and uncomfortable, there's no way this could be false.
Inferno313
Banned
Palpatine survived Return of the Jedi because I played as him in the Battle of Jakku on Battlefront. CANON
QuantumZebra
Member
Not canon - because it contradicts the film.
See how easy this is? So easy.
Now we can go back to discussing all the juicy possibilities of Ep. VIII and the universe using all of our canon resources (novels, coloring books, etc) that don't contradict the films.
We left logic behind a looong time ago. I've been trying to reason with Helios about this for pages now
LegendofLex
Member
As much as TFA rests on "stuff we'll find out later," I think it makes much more sense for Kylo to make a full-circle reference to something that happened earlier in the story (that is in fact the title of the story) than to cryptically allude to something that won't be revealed until a future work, especially with the "fly by the seat of your pants" writing that typically goes into Star Wars stories.
This isn't an R2-D2 type situation where the answer we've been given reeks of BS; it's one where, in direct response to speculation from fans, a member of the story group has given us an answer that seems to say that people are reading too much into it.
That's awesome.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The line, "the dark side and the light" from the first teaser was originally in Kylo's first talk with Snoke in one of the earlier drafts. It made it in the novel.
QuantumZebra
Member
Not sure if you're joking there - but JJ literally said (regarding the R2 situation) that "people are looking too much into it" and he woke up simply because of BB-8 (which we know isn't true because BB-8 ran into R2 earlier in the film with the map piece).
All we have to go off of is what is in the novels, and the details we can pull out of the film. I don't trust a word the creators have after the fact - they clearly want to keep it under wraps.
QuantumZebra
Member
Hey, on my last viewing of the movie I made this connection and was wondering if anyone else had. When they are all sneaking around Starkiller at the end, and Finn and Rey go get the doors opened so Han and Chewie can get into the oscillator building with the explosives, the piece Rey pulls out of the panel to open the doors is almost exactly like the piece she pulls out of the panel in the Star Destroyer the first time we see her in the film. The shot is almost the same too, and she pulls it out the same way. Presumably she knew exactly what it was and what it would do.
Right, and have no idea what this means yet, in the overarching story line, if anything at all.
Surely there isn't just an awakening in Rey? Why wouldn't their be an awakening in ALL of the force (The Force Awakens)? I bet we'll see more of this in the next two episodes.
LegendofLex
Member
Sure, but the presence of a BS explanation usually indicates the lack of a non-BS explanation, not that they have a good explanation but just don't want to share it. I don't think anyone believes JJ is trying to hide the truth about why R2 wakes up at the end; they just think it's something that was poorly explained.
In the novelization case, the reason given actually gels with what's shown in the film, so it isn't a BS explanation in the first place, much less one being used to hide the real explanation.
Just because a title is generalized and vague doesn't also mean what it actually winds up meaning in the context of the story-universe is more generalized than the events we witness.
QuantumZebra
Member
That is precisely why I don't buy Kylo referring to her with "It Is You" about the awakening part. It along with about 10 billion other hints suggests he realizes/now believes who she truly is at that point (he likely had an idea ever since the "What girl?!" / force choke scene).
Just as Surfinn pointed out - that isn't (IMO) a plausible reading of it. Her being the sole "Awakening" in the Force just doesn't vibe right, and considering what we know of the Force (a living energy that permeates all existence), doesn't really make sense either.
My interpretation of the Awakening was that things had been dormant since the Jedi Temple slaughter (the Force is living energy, so it was very likely wounded / retracted after that event) - and Rey - and possibly Finn, or Poe, or someone else we don't know as well - experience an "awakening" of their latent force-sensitivity.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I'm totally open to "theory crafting" but I'm not going to rely on teasers, trailers, and the novelization of a movie... when we have the movie itself. Rian Johnson and Trevorrow are not going to rely upon the novelization for the next movies. They may draw ideas from it and work them into the next movies, but they are going to keep to the films. Unkar Plutt may get his arm ripped off in the next movie. It may already be ripped off. Until then, the novelization doesn't matter. They're just fun reads that have no great import. By its very nature, novelizations are secondary to the movie.
Ad for your example, that all happens in the movies and didn't rely upon the novelizations for their cues.
WadiumArcadium
Member
It's possible there's an awakening among lots of force-sensitive individuals. but I think they'll be trying to move away from having lots of force users in this trilogy.
In terms of the title, Return of the Jedi's a good comparison point. The Jedi were this great Order with thousands of Jedi spread across the galaxy, yet their 'return' refers to one Jedi, or at least that's what they intended when they named it that.
LegendofLex
Member
What 10 billion other hints?
- On its face, "What girl?" means literally what it says: his lieutenant mentioned a girl, he hadn't heard of any girl, so he wants his lieutenant to identify her - whatever intelligence he can gain will aid in his strategic decision making about what to do next. Plus he's hella pissed that his men can't simply pick up a droid and keep being foiled by a growing number of increasingly resourceful fugitives.
- The only knowledge we can tell that he has about Rey when he first encounters her (on Takodano) include: she's the girl that helped Finn/BB-8 escape, she's a scavenger, she's seen the map. No hints about anything else at this point.
- When he's probing her mind, he talks about all kinds of things he's seeing in her head. But no grim references to her past to break her spirit? If he knows something, that'd be the perfect time to exploit that knowledge to manipulate her. But, no, instead he talks exclusively about things that are going on inside her head, using his mind-reading powers. And he shows no sign of suspicion that she has the Force until she resists him.
- Hell, if he's supposed to know who she is and the film's supposed to be signaling this to us, all the more reason for the film to draw attention to this the moment she gets the lightsaber and/or beats him, not specifically cut it out.
You're directly describing the interpretation you're professing to dismiss.
Sure, but while future stories can contradict or explain away details from past ones, without those future stories you don't really have any basis to make assumptions beyond the evidence given in/about the existing stories.
QuantumZebra
Member
His point was that you can't just make concrete assertions about the overall story based upon the film alone. If you did then it is impossible that Vader is Luke's father, because Obi-Wan said Vader killed Luke's father - see what he means?
And look - if you're going to "theorycraft" at all about Star Wars - you have to use all media, as it is all canon (yet again - unless it contradicts the films).
Star Wars has always pulled from its EU for inspiration and minor details - they even did it for TFA using some cues from the old EU that is no longer canon (Leia and Han having a son that turns to the dark side, Luke forming a Jedi Academy, etc).
If they are pulling from non-canon EU, then it makes 0 sense to assume they won't use the actual canon being put out by Disney for reference points.
heliosRAzi
Banned
When they first meet on Takodano, Kylo doesn't hint at anything about their supposed shared past.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Sorry to nitpick but it's Lucasfillm controlling the canon, not Disney.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Did ANH's novelization? I'm not opposed to new information being presented in the films.
QuantumZebra
Member
.
Check my posts above.
The whole reason I'm riding the "It is you" line is because that syncs up with him finally realizing / accepting / believing that she is Luke's daughter (or Kylo's sister). The entire rest of the film before that, I think he has an idea, but he clearly isn't gonna be like "Hey aren't you my cousin/sister? I think you are! Let's join forces and fight Snoke! WEEEE!"
WadiumArcadium
Member
Wouldn't the part where he tells Rey to join him be the perfect time to reveal that information? The fact Rey's been isolated for so long might have made it more likely she'd join him if he revealed they were family.
I'm thinking on a smaller scale. There's an evil force to counteract Rey's "good".
Like quantum said.. you're missing the point. It's not about the novelization, but rather, the script they're pulling from. We're gathering hints from the script, not necessarily the novel, and it seems like you're having a hard time getting past that. When a new hope came out, I'm sure there weren't nearly the same amount of potential sources to pull from, which seem to be pulling from the same source. There's no reason to NOT use this content to generate theories, until it's proven false. Innocent until proven guilty, in this case.
QuantumZebra
Member
Ignoring the way it would kill the pacing of the scene and also give away far too much that is clearly being left for Ep. VIII - it isn't exactly the place to spill the beans about her parentage while they're fighting and a planet is collapsing around them.
To the first. He dismisses her as a scavenger and then is shocked out of his mind when he resists his mind probe. He would not be surprised if he knew it was his sister or other relative. The explanation might work in isolation, but not in what follows. He treats her like a stranger through the film.
The explanation for his reaction to "what girl" is much more simply explained by the broader context of the scene:
LegendofLex
Member
No, actually there's no reason to assume that Kylo Ren would lash out at his report for any particular reason aside from that that same report gave him more bad news when he was clearly through getting bad news that day. And given that he'd just asked whether there were any further complications in the pursuit, being told about them is perfectly appropriate, too.
In order for another interpretation to be more likely, it needs supporting evidence that makes it more likely.
Bar the "it is you!" line, for which a sensible alternate explanation has been offered by a person responsible for continuity at LucasFilm (and which was cut from the final film, thus making it unlikely that the story group at LucasFilm thought it was important to how people interpret the content that is present in the film, and thus not very good support for any interpretation that anyone can expect to have reached from the film anyway), your interpretation lacks this supporting evidence.
Therefore, I and others do not consider it to be the most likely interpretation.
It's as simple as that.
Given Kylo's goals throughout the rest of the film - to find Luke Skywalker and stop the new Jedi from rising - the much more likely interpretation of Kylo "finishing what you started" is to actually exterminate the Jedi once and for all, not train a family member to use the dark side (which honestly would be idiotic given that family sentimentality was directly the cause of Vader's downfall, a sentiment also expressed in the novelization as well as by Kylo himself within the film).
Like the "it is you" line itself, how Kylo intends to follow Darth Vader's footsteps is shown within the film itself to be the following: "You're afraid... that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader."
Since Darth Vader never actually turned a Skywalker to the dark side, whether or not Kylo is able to do so is immaterial to his ambition to become as strong as Darth Vader. Darth Vader did take out an awful lot of Jedi, and so to top him Kylo will certainly need to become at least as strong.
Or, alternatively, that's the moment when he realizes that she's more powerful than him with the Force and thus the likely object of the tremor in the Force he and Snoke experienced earlier in the film. And upon discovering this, he recognizes an opportunity to train her.
This is actually a conclusion you must also arrive at in your interpretation, except without the baggage of additional assumptions.
The only thing we can say for sure about the meaning of the vision is that it traces the history of the events that led to Rey discovering the lightsaber (symbolic for awakening in the Force).
IIRC, the screaming occurs throughout (as well as before) the vision, not just in particular parts of the vision. The only case of not-apparently-disembodied screaming shows up when we see child Rey on Jakku.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I see your point. If you want to make theories off of that, that's fine. It's fun. I just have a problem with Quantum saying that Kylo said something when Kylo did not. Kylo does not say "It is you" in the movie. He didn't mutter it to himself (it's not even in the script). He didn't whisper it into the either. He didn't mouth it. My point is that the movies trumps the novelization. You can theory craft whatever you want from the novelization and that's okay by me; however, it won't necessarily be canon because they might go in a different direction. Like I said, the novelizations are secondary by nature. It's canon is at the whim of the movies.
WadiumArcadium
Member
They still manage to have a chat while the planet is collapsing around them though. A one way one maybe but still, a lightsaber duel didn't stop Vader revealing Luke was his son either.
I just think it'll be weird looking back if it wasn't revealed during that scene if Kylo knows he's related to her. If he doesn't and I don't think he does, it's not a problem.
Interfectum
Member
I dunno, I don't think Kylo knows Rey. Why didn't he say something when the gloves were off and they were battling balls out? Doesn't make sense.
Kylo could have been like, join me, cousin, and I'll show you the way of the dark side. Or some shit.
Edit: It wouldn't have killed the pacing either since she could have reacted very badly to it. "I'm not your family!" slash slash slash
Kylo could have been like, join me, cousin, and I'll show you the way of the dark side. Or some shit.
Edit: It wouldn't have killed the pacing either since she could have reacted very badly to it. "I'm not your family!" slash slash slash
QuantumZebra
Member
See I got a completely different vibe. Even my first viewing I felt that the movie was very subtly hinting at Kylo having an idea of who "the girl" might be - but not fully believing it till the very end (hence the "It Is You" line from the novel being in there).
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I think for anyone to properly understand where I (or others) are coming from here is this:
The theory goes that Rey is Luke's daughter, and she, Luke, and her mother are on the Jedi Temple planet during the slaughter (which explains the flashbacks showing the temple burning with Luke and R2, and the young girl crying/screaming in the background) - as shit goes down, Luke imprints his map and instructions to R2 to awake upon hearing Rey's voice/sensing her, and then Luke mindwipes/suppresses Rey's memories.
Rey's mother/Luke's lady takes Rey to Jakku and leaves her there so she isn't hunted down by Kylo and the First Order along with Luke (keeping her safe from them - and no Unkar Plutt isn't aligned with the First Order IMO, I think he just protected her for top dollar) - then Rey's mom goes to the planet where Luke is (where she presumably dies, as if you notice, there is what definitely looks like a grave next to him).
Kylo has been searching for her (and Luke) ever since the slaughter, and when he hears "a girl was with them" he immediately goes over the top wondering if it is her. He has an inkling that Rey is his long lost cousin all along, but is never sure until she overpowers him to pull the sword in the stone (Luke's Saber) thus proving her the true heir to Skywalker. Hence "It is you" he murmurs.
He would not have been able to see if she was Luke's kid when her tried to read her mind because her memories have been suppressed.
(on top of this, little things like the way Luke looks at her, Leia hugging her so warmly even though they have "never" met, Rey's outfit, origin, and skills, etc.. etc... etc...).
On top of all of this (and tying into my theory, which is also what a lot of other people think) - when she finds Luke, he is standing next to presumably a grave (Rey's mother) - he clearly knew she was on the way, and chose that spot to meet her.
All of this just adds up too much.
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This is a (really well written) article breaking further down what I touched on here: http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/rey-is-definitely-luke-skywalkers-daughter (in before buzzfeed /eyeroll)
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Even if you ignore the issues it would cause with pacing and dramatic weight, here's why:
1. The planet is collapsing around them - that is a good time to say "Join me and lets GTFO ASAP" - not a good time to chat about lineage.
2. He had no idea what her reaction would be - she could very well say "Im Luke's daughter? Well then im gonna super fuck you up then!" or she doesn't believe him, or (etc... etc..)
3. They are clearly saving her parentage reveal for Episode VIII. People seem to be discounting just how much Lucasfilm wants to keep everything under wraps when it comes to her backstory (and Kylo's, and Luke's, and Snoke's, etc... etc...).
Right, it's just strange to me because it seemed like you were arguing AGAINST doing this before, which is where the issue came from (because it's not coming directly from the movie). Maybe I misunderstood you?
In regard to the line, the camera doesn't literally SHOW him say this line, but I also agree that it's possible he said it to himself, hence the line from the novel (we might get information/canonization in the near future which supports this idea). Novelizations often include more info because they're just better able to do it via that medium, unlike movies that need to be cut and filmed in specific ways to enhance that particular experience.
Which means there's absolutely no evidence to prove "guilty", which means that line may still ABSOLUTELY be considered when theorycrafting (or theorizing, for non-gaming hipsters).
Now, I'm not saying they're DEFINITELY related, but I would say there's a damn good chance he knows way more about her history and potential than she does, and generally "knows" who she is (or at least what's been fed from Snoke); I definitely think they have some sort of history and possibly met before, but I don't know what that actually means.
QuantumZebra
Member
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