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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Prof. Bathtub
Member
I'm willing to bet toymakers were as bummed as fans were to see so few new designs. Still, to my knowledge, there isn't a mandated quota of new vehicles per film, though I don't know for certain. It was the filmmaker's mistake to make, so to speak.
UnemployedVillain
Member
You saying things were explained doesn't make them explained.
In ANH we got a definition of what the force was. As mystical as etheral as it was, it was still an actual description from Obi Wan. In addition, we learned the relationship between the light and dark side. We learned what a lightsaber was and how it was the primary weapon of a Jedi knight, and what a Jedi was (none of this was explained in this)
While we know from JUST this movie Leia is rebellion general, Han is a smuggler and they had a relationship, we don't know what the extent of that relationship was. Hell, IIRC they call her General Organo, and there isn't even a reference to her and Luke being brothers.
C3PO and R2D2 are random droids with no relation to anyone. At most we know they knew Luke because C3PO calls him Master, but that's about it.
Luke is definitely not explained in any way. We only knew he trained Jedis and went into seclusion. The events of the OT aren't known unless you watched them.
The Deathstar 3 just comes off as a random superweapon if you didn't know there were 2 other variants of it before.
Storm Troopers are given the same amount of explanation they got in ANH. That's pretty much the only thing you were right about
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's not defensive, Brakke. It's offensive. I'm trying to point out how needless and stupid putting that noise into your post is.
If you're gonna disagree, do it. Don't moo at me.
Yeah it does. Because they were explained. In the film. You just had to like, watch it. Maz explains what the Force is. Snoke, Kylo, Han & Leia all explain the extent of their relationship. Threepio explains Artoo. Threepio doesn't really need explanation, he's just an annoying shit. Luke is explained in the opening crawl, by Rey & Han, and Starkiller Base has an entire scene explaining both it's function, and how it compares to The Death Star.
It's all there. It's not hard to digest. It's presented very clearly. Your assertion that you need to previously have an understanding of any of those things before you watch this film doesn't hold up just because your mother left the theater with question marks over her head.
...aside, from, you know, the son they had together and them talking about their relationship in a way that very clearly comes off as a married couple going through separation issues.
...which is shown and addressed in both visuals and dialog in the movie.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I can't believe the idea that this movie strongly relies on you seeing the old ones is so contested on here. It's not even a slight against the movie as it's nothing unexpected for a sequel.
This is as mindboggling as the stupid metallic gloves argument. For fucks sake
This is as mindboggling as the stupid metallic gloves argument. For fucks sake
NumberThree
Member
- That's true no matter what's your first Star Wars film, because force is magic. And if you have seen the previous movies it seems to be more difficult to accept Rey's skills with the force, for example.
- Han and Leia talk about having a kid and how Han left. That's their relationship.
- Wow, talking robots in a space movie. Talking robots that obviously know Han based on their scenes together.
- Everyone wants to find Luke Skywalker because he is, according to the opening crawl, the last Jedi. You don't really need to know anything else about him than the fact that he's a big deal.
- Arguably the Starkiller base makes less sense if you've seen the previous movies. I don't see how you need to have seen other movies to understand the concept of a planet-destroying weapon.
- Stormtroopers? What about them doesn't make sense, and how is it changed by watching the other movies? How does it make sense in ANH?
- I don't think the Empire and Rebels are even mentioned in the movie.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I won't wade into whether or not 7 does enough to establish the legacy, because I don't know and don't care.
You should watch 4-6 and then 1-3 before seeing 7 just because.
If you walk into 7 without seeing the others and come away somewhat confused, that's on you. It's the 7th movie in a series. Watch the first 6. (At least the OT.)
You should watch 4-6 and then 1-3 before seeing 7 just because.
If you walk into 7 without seeing the others and come away somewhat confused, that's on you. It's the 7th movie in a series. Watch the first 6. (At least the OT.)
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Took 3 people to see the movie tonight who knew not a single thing about Star Wars. They loved the movie and understood everything without a lot of questions. That's because Star Wars is a rich enough universe that you don't need every single answer to get what's going on. Most stuff is just pretty simple to understand anyway.
"How is she doing that? Oh it must be this magic Force power."
"Who are the First Order? Oh they must be the bad guys."
"Who are the Resistance? Oh they saved the heros, they must be the good guys!"
"Who is Luke Skywalker? Oh he's a legendary warrior. No wonder the bad guys want him dead."
"Oh so there was some legendary war that these guys were involved in long ago. That sounds cool. I'd like to see more about that."
From a certain POV
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Bobby right now:
That's not a hissy fit gif.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
True. However...
Stop with this shit. This isn't the first "Oh you had some issues with the film? Well I guess you must looooove the prequels teeheehee" post that I've seen around here, but its fucking dumb.
Alx
Member
I think the movie does a good job introducing the required information actually :
- The Force is crazy deus ex magic.
- It's clear enough that Solo and Leia were a couple and Ben's parents, and that Han and Chewie are close friends (what with bantering and taking care of each other). What is not really introduced is their past wih Luke, which is actually irrelevant to the story (Solo doesn't seem to give a shit, Leia is looking for him as a strategic element like the rest of the Resistance... and both are more worried about their son)
- C3PO is pointless in the movie, and R2 has been introduced as "Luke's droid that he put on standby a long time ago". Their roles in the past events isn't mentioned, but it's actually better that way (the fact that R2 has been in all important events of the saga is actually a big flaw in the storytelling... and he doesn't even have "crazy deus ex magic" as an excuse)
- Deathstar 3 comes out of nowhere and is stupid, even (especially) when you're familiar with the other movies.
- Stormtroopers, Empire, Rebels etc are just "bad guys vs good guys". Not really hard to understand. no harder than it was in ANH anyway.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Knights of Ren are going to be boss fights in some video game. Hopefully.
Hooooooooooooolly fuck yeah! Just saw the film. I'm so happy. This is good. StarWars is aliiiiiiiive! I think I genuinely cried a little just because it didn't suck. Haha!
It had thrills, it had real interactions between characters, I LOVE BB8! From Jar Jar to this... It's like... Deliverance.
Hooooo, boy. I need to see that again.
It had thrills, it had real interactions between characters, I LOVE BB8! From Jar Jar to this... It's like... Deliverance.
Hooooo, boy. I need to see that again.
If my 8 year old cousin who had never seen anything Star Wars related could follow the plot then I'm pretty sure any adult could.
So what direction do people think/want Kylo-Ren to go?
I'm hearing about a redemption arc and personally if that happened, I would be extremely dissapointed. In my eyes that would just make him a worse Darth Vader in almost every way. I think the only way he can be a great character is if he just keeps going deeper and deeper into the dark side, doing everything he can do push what's left of the light out of him, until he becomes a crazed machine. He's already got a good start and (should) be past the point of no return with the killing of his father.
But considering how "safe" this movie was (although I enjoyed it), I'm a bit worried about how dark they will be willing to go eith this trilogy.
I'm hearing about a redemption arc and personally if that happened, I would be extremely dissapointed. In my eyes that would just make him a worse Darth Vader in almost every way. I think the only way he can be a great character is if he just keeps going deeper and deeper into the dark side, doing everything he can do push what's left of the light out of him, until he becomes a crazed machine. He's already got a good start and (should) be past the point of no return with the killing of his father.
But considering how "safe" this movie was (although I enjoyed it), I'm a bit worried about how dark they will be willing to go eith this trilogy.
I hope he becomes the strongest Dark Side character in the saga, like Palpatine levels of mastery. .
brandonh83
Banned
Gotta disagree with this. It isn't a storytelling flaw, it's simply the nature of the storytelling style of Star Wars. People really need to understand that Star Wars is deliberately set up to revolve around chance meetings, coincidence, fate, and history repeating itself. It's always been like that. People make fun of Lucas for referring to the story as poetic but it's absolutely the case. Is Luke crashing the Xwing on Dagobah so conveniently close to where Yoda resides a storytelling flaw? No, it's just the "will of the Force" or whatever, just like most things. Likewise R2 being involved with a lot of major events is just, again, the type of story being told.
Not saying you have to like it but that's how Star Wars rolls.
Uhh the Knights of Ren basically don't even exist so far how can I be excited about them? They already are basically a video game thing: concept art inelegantly inserted into a thing for no real reason except the developer had it sitting around the office.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think this is the path. Although I don't think "mastery" is actually in the cards. He'll remain unstable, but more powerful as he makes moves to chase Darth Vader's shadow - which he can never, ever catch, even as he commits more and more atrocities.
But I don't think redemption's on the table anymore. He's going to usurp Snoke and become the series big bad.
The Force is just magic and they make it very clear in the movie what it is and how some people are able to use it.
We have a whole scene that perfectly accomplishes that Han Solo and Chewy are old friends who have been in countless adventures together. Did you miss all of the scenes with Han and Leia together and them talking about their son? It's clear that they were lovers who split up since they specifically say this in the movie.
C3PO and R2D2 are clearly old comrades of Leia and Han Solo. You get what when C3PO talks to Han Solo and then you find out that R2D2 shut down once Luke so that tells you that the little guy is depressed about Luke being gone. What's confusing about all of that?
Luke Skywalker is not some "random" dude, he's the most important person in the whole galaxy. Everyone is doing everything in their power to find this guy and the opening scroll tells you that because he went missing the First Order was able to rise to power. This should tell you everything you need to know about Luke. Hell, one of the selling points that got JJ to join the project was the idea that there were people who didn't know who Luke Skywalker was and that he became some legend.
What do you need to know besides it's a huge planet sized weapon that can blow up multiple planets?
The First Order are bad, The Resistance are good and the Stormtroopers are soldiers that the bad guys use. What's confusing about this?
Yeah this is the kind of stuff I'm hoping for. If he is a master, I want him to be like any other master ever seen. Unhinged and mad with power. That could be amazing.
But I'm still worried a redemtion path is still an option, knowing Disney and how much this film mimics ANH, which could go for this entire trilogy. AKA Ren redeems himself like Vader.
I just hope they go as dark with this trilogy as Empire did.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
They'll surely have to keep the "there is still good in you" angle, to whatever degree that does or doesn't pay off. He isn't Darth Etc. He's the son of Han and Leia.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Hopefully. Snoke is such a weak element of the film that to some degree I even hope they do a Wizard of Oz reveal so we can forget he even existed as any other thing than some imposing hologram part of a more intelligently thought scheme.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Not only will that be repetitive compared to the Original Trilogy (a concern they have to deal with in Episode 8 & 9 now that Abrams/Kasdan have completely remixed the OT entire in one movie) but it'd be repetitive within their own trilogy: He killed his father to shut the door on that. That doesn't make going to the light more possible, it makes it less.
Kylo seems to be a character who believes in the sunk cost fallacy. And that's a pretty big bet he made with his dad. And it didn't work. He's just gonna keep betting big at this point. I don't see a redemption in the cards for someone who is more or less a combination of school shooter and gambling addict.
Alx
Member
Yeah but history can repeat itself without using the same robot all the time. Other droids (or non-droids) could fill R2 shoes -or lack thereof- , he's been forced in all those stories because it's a popular character and sells toys. I mean neither R2 nor 3PO have a reason to be in the PT, they even have to erase their memory at the end to make it somehow consistent with the OT.
Also most of the chance and fate in the SW universe can be excused by
brandonh83
Banned
Trigonometrize.
Member
I guess this means we're going to find out Kylo built BB8 in Star Wars: The pre-sequel. He thought it would help Luke with the chores!
brandonh83
Banned
I think we've reached peak traitor-trooper
From my point of view, the Jedi are TRAITORS.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Not until it is the pixel art version
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't see this character going on to have zero redemption considering the questions that have already been raised about his wavering devotion to the dark side. Vader had even less inclination to be good at this stage of his trilogy.
But I'm talking end of Episode IX, last minute redemption.... He'll be a bad guy for most of it.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Someone already posted a few.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
Totally agree that this dismissive attitude needs to die in a fire, but there's totally a nugget of truth to it. There's a slice of the fandom who are so invested in the prequel trilogy not being utterly rubbish that it seems this film being 1) so far removed from them and 2) almost universally loved has sent them to a crazy, crazy place.
And they are vocal.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Kylo has none. The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader believes he had no choice. He was absolutely manipulated into a situation where he (wrongly) felt like his back was against the wall, and acted accordingly, and found himself in a place where he basically is left with nothing BUT Palpatine and his Empire to sustain him moving forward. It's only when the son he never knew he had pokes his head out of the ground and has the temerity to still believe in him after his botched seduction to the dark side that he starts seriously questioning who and what he is and why he's doing it.
Kylo's had multiple chances to go back to the light whenever he wanted. Nobody forced him to go dark. He just did it. And even after he did it, it's been made apparent he could come back. He just doesn't. He's a man who has refused prior redemption even though his parents are STILL putting their hands out there for him to take. And then his father personally approaches him with yet ANOTHER chance at redemption - and he kills him for it.
They're on different arcs entirely, and at different places in those arcs at the beginning of their respective trilogies. Vader basically understands that he bought his existence with his actions, and dedicates himself to making the most of that, so the sacrifice isn't meaningless. Kylo is all about racking up meaningless sacrifices in an effort to prove to himself he's the tortured, evil, powerful man he wants to be.
Vader had his redemption because someone showed him the door that he didn't know anyone could open. Kylo's always had an open door. He just keeps slamming it shut.
No one wants to see that kind of motherfucker get redemption. They want his ungrateful, stupid ass to catch the punishment he's begging to get. And I think that's going to be the conflict for some of our main characters: What do you do when the person who still has something worth fighting for isn't interested in your better interests, and refuses to let the light in? Again - he's a combination gambling addict/school shooter here, basically. And he's already stood by and watched as five planets blew up, and that's before he murdered his father. None of which he had to do, and he knows it. He's an unstable individual who talks to the burnt helmet of his dead grandfather, whose life he willfully misunderstands.
What kind of satisfying redemption do you come up with in answer to that?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's probably a better introduction to the series than Episode I was (ironically).
That said, I do fault both Episode I and VII for not including their own introduction to the Force and the state of the galaxy, just as Obi Wan delivered his introduction in Episode IV.
Not just for new viewers. It would be satisfying for old fans to hear a new version of this truth, in order to reinforce and remind viewers of the majesty and difficulty of this universe.
gutter_trash
Banned
I stopped seeing a girl who didn't know who Bugs Bunny was
The consensus seems to be that it's an uphill battle quality wise, but worth it.
I've only seen bits and pieces of the show btw. I liked what I saw.
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