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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Nere

Member
Saw it yesterday and didn't left me impressed. It isn't a bad movie but I don't think it reaches the level of the originals for many reasons.

1. The whole story felt like a remake of Episode IV like an exact remake almost. It starts with introducing the stormtroopers and Vader/Kylo Ren that are seeking a map/schematic from a droid which escapes and falls into the hands of Luke/Rey e.t.c. Sure they made all this on purpose and for nostalgia reasons and to honor the originals but I went to see episode VII not an episode IV remake.

2. Kylo Ren just didn't made sense. In the start he is portayed as powerful in the force and after the middle of the movie he is like 10 times worse. He loses a duel from someone who hadn't touched a lightsaber again? I mean how is that possible? And Finn was able to hit him even though he isn't force sensitive and had no training. I mean if Kylo Ren loses from a completely untrained Rey then what hopes does he has when she will be trained from Luke?

I don't know maybe I am a bit too critical on the movie, I can't say it is a bad movie but I expected a new chapter, a new start in the saga, the retreat to episode's IV story disappoints me, it is like you expect a brand new food for dinner and you just get yesterday's food warmed again.....
 
Loved this film.

It definitely hits a lot of the same beats as A New Hope BUT the character dynamics are a lot different and imo that makes all the difference in the world. These characters are new and interesting and I am excited to see where they go from here.
 

DKHF

Member
Saw it yesterday and didn't left me impressed. It isn't a bad movie but I don't think it reaches the level of the originals for many reasons.

1. The whole story felt like a remake of Episode IV like an exact remake almost. It starts with introducing the stormtroopers and Vader/Kylo Ren that are seeking a map/schematic from a droid which escapes and falls into the hands of Luke/Rey e.t.c. Sure they made all this on purpose and for nostalgia reasons and to honor the originals but I went to see episode VII not an episode IV remake.

2. Kylo Ren just didn't made sense. In the start he is portayed as powerful in the force and after the middle of the movie he is like 10 times worse. He loses a duel from someone who hadn't touched a lightsaber again? I mean how is that possible? And Finn was able to hit him even though he isn't force sensitive and had no training. I mean if Kylo Ren loses from a completely untrained Rey then what hopes does he has when she will be trained from Luke?

I don't know maybe I am a bit too critical on the movie, I can't say it is a bad movie but I expected a new chapter, a new start in the saga, the retreat to episode's IV story disappoints me, it is like you expect a brand new food for dinner and you just get yesterday's food warmed again.....
It doesn't explain that much but Kylo was shot by Chewie just before the duels and that hurt him badly, so he wasn't in perfect shape to fight.
 

kvn

Member
Saw it yesterday and didn't left me impressed. It isn't a bad movie but I don't think it reaches the level of the originals for many reasons.

1. The whole story felt like a remake of Episode IV like an exact remake almost. It starts with introducing the stormtroopers and Vader/Kylo Ren that are seeking a map/schematic from a droid which escapes and falls into the hands of Luke/Rey e.t.c. Sure they made all this on purpose and for nostalgia reasons and to honor the originals but I went to see episode VII not an episode IV remake.

2. Kylo Ren just didn't made sense. In the start he is portayed as powerful in the force and after the middle of the movie he is like 10 times worse. He loses a duel from someone who hadn't touched a lightsaber again? I mean how is that possible? And Finn was able to hit him even though he isn't force sensitive and had no training. I mean if Kylo Ren loses from a completely untrained Rey then what hopes does he has when she will be trained from Luke?

I don't know maybe I am a bit too critical on the movie, I can't say it is a bad movie but I expected a new chapter, a new start in the saga, the retreat to episode's IV story disappoints me, it is like you expect a brand new food for dinner and you just get yesterday's food warmed again.....

He struggled because he got shot by Chewie a moment before, but yes, I thought the same thing in that scene.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
I'd like to see how well you do at your day job just after you stab your dad in the chest then get shot in the stomach by your dad's best friend.
 
It doesn't explain that much but Kylo was shot by Chewie just before the duels and that hurt him badly, so he wasn't in perfect shape to fight.

Lots of factors really. He was hurt, he's clearly immature and has not completed his training and Rey has shown great competency with a melee weapon already. Sure it wasn't a light saber but against a wounded opponent who was clearly in an emotional state she had the upper hand.

I'd like to see how well you do at your day job just after you stab your dad in the chest then get shot in the stomach by your dad's best friend.

Yeah that.
 

valkyre

Member
Am I really weird that I crave for a director with the balls to make a Star Wars film were the dark side rules?

ESB is the only one you can say that favors the dark side, but I want it even more profound.

I want Kylo Ren to own everything in episode VIII.
 
Am I really weird that I crave for a director with the balls to make a Star Wars film were the dark side rules?

ESB is the only one you can say that favors the dark side, but I want it even more profound.

I want Kylo Ren to own everything in episode VIII.

I'm really hoping that's the direction they take it. I REALLY hope Kylo Ren descends really far down that path. Even if he has anything close to a redemption scene it should come at the cost of his life but honestly that'd be a bit too much of a repeat for me. Give me a tragic villain who is a villain to the end dammit.
 

Qurupeke

Member
I want Kylo Ren to own everything in episode VIII.

I'll be disappointed if that doesn't happen. He's already lost once and it's inevitable that he will be defeated/join the good side in the final installment, so at least I want a satisfying win in SWVIII. Darth Vader pretty much destroying Luke, both emotionally and physically, is my favourite scene in the franchise. In the first SW, even though he lost, he defeated Obi-Wan. Kylo Ren defeated a Han Solo that wasn't doing anything... He's an interesting villain so I really want him to be more memorable than being a meme for losing all the time.
 
Am I really weird that I crave for a director with the balls to make a Star Wars film were the dark side rules?

ESB is the only one you can say that favors the dark side, but I want it even more profound.

I want Kylo Ren to own everything in episode VIII.

I mean the dark side won pretty handily in Revenge of the Sith.

Unless you don't count the destruction of the Galactic Republic and total annihilation of the Jedi Odrer.
 
I'll be disappointed if that doesn't happen. He's already lost once and it's inevitable that he will be defeated/join the good side in the final installment, so at least I want a satisfying win in SWVIII. Darth Vader pretty much destroying Luke, both emotionally and physically, is my favourite scene in the franchise. In the first SW, even though he lost, he defeated Obi-Wan. Kylo Ren defeated a Han Solo that wasn't doing anything... He's an interesting villain so I really want him to be more memorable than being a meme for losing all the time.

I get people's frustration about him losing but I think there was a big narrative point to that. He's not Darth Vader, he's still in training and he's clearly extremely emotional. However, I think he overcame his biggest obstacle in killing his father, that combined with Snoke's line about completing his training leads me to believe his character will definitely progress to something far more dangerous.
 

valkyre

Member
I mean the dark side won pretty handily in Revenge of the Sith.

Unless you don't count the destruction of the Galactic Republic and total annihilation of the Jedi Odrer.

Yes you are absolutely correct. I dont even know how I missed this.. perhaps because I am really not very fond of the prequels.

But, that said, I want a duel were the bad guy (Ren) , fucking destroys the good guy.

I am tired of the Light always having to be there as a winner one way or another.

Turn the scales, do a 180 turn.

And for the love of God, dont make Kylo Ren the equivalent of Anakin's Redemption. Hopefully killing his father is exactly what it seems to be: bad to the bone.

I dont mind him going down in episode 9, but dont you dare repeat the same old thing with the prequels. You can still have a bad to the bone multidimensional character, there is no need for Light side to be there.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
I'm honestly actually more excited for Rogue One than I am for VIII

(not to say I'm not looking forward to VIII)

I want to see what happens when a Star Wars movie doesn't really have to concede to expectations while subtly apologizing for the prequel movies.

Also less lightsabers more commando. Yes pls.

huge fan of Aaron Allston's Wraith Squad books. RIP :'(
 

Balthuk

Member
I saw the movie yesterday and have two things to say:
1. The fight of Kylo and Rey was interrupted by the earth splitting them apart. That seemed way too convenient and a 'cheap' way to let him live. Just have someone with a blaster rifle shoot at Rey so she has to flee
2. When Kylo interrogated Rey, he said that he saw everything she had inside her head. As in Han Solo being nice to her (fatherly figure) etc. He also said:'' I see an ocean. I see an island ''. He was talkinga bout the island where Luke was hiding, something that at the time Rey could only know due to the force, and did not even realise she did. That was a neat little detail.
Edit: I see that people had mentioned n.2 before, my bad
 
That's a pretty flimsy argument considering this movie would make next to no sense whatsoever to someone who wasn't already well versed in the Star Wars universe. There are waaay to man references, callbacks and assumptions of prior knowledge for this to be for newbies

I think it's less the prior knowledge that's necessary, but also: why should they care about the old characters if they hadn't seen the OT?

Rey is good in that aspect because she becomes the uninformed audience surrogate. She asks Han if the legends are true. Those who haven't seen a SW film in their life had fans that bombarded them with information of the OT, legends.

But just being told about the legends doesn't mean they'll care. They won't get the emotional connection to Han and Leia. No amount of telling will show them the petulant awesomeness of R2. Legends are distant and detached. At least to me.

We are told of Hosnian Prime and then it gets blown up. The movie really doesn't give us a reason to care about the destruction other than they were the good guys. For me, it didn't resonate.
 
1. The fight of Kylo and Rey was interrupted by the earth splitting them apart. That seemed way too convenient and a 'cheap' way to let him live. Just have someone with a blaster rifle shoot at Rey so she has to flee

It was also strange how Poe's crashed TIE Fighter sank in quicksand yet Finn who was standing right next to it after getting Poe's jacket didn't sink.
 

Pluto

Member
Not only will that be repetitive compared to the Original Trilogy (a concern they have to deal with in Episode 8 & 9 now that Abrams/Kasdan have completely remixed the OT entire in one movie) but it'd be repetitive within their own trilogy: He killed his father to shut the door on that. That doesn't make going to the light more possible, it makes it less.

Kylo seems to be a character who believes in the sunk cost fallacy. And that's a pretty big bet he made with his dad. And it didn't work. He's just gonna keep betting big at this point. I don't see a redemption in the cards for someone who is more or less a combination of school shooter and gambling addict.
I bet Leia's gonna kill him, I don't think it will be Rey, she'll be a master trained by Luke at the end and Kylo kinda sucks, he was actually hurt by Finn during their light saber duel. Rey would probably kill him in three seconds.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
I guess, but it was very convenient how the ship immediately started sinking after Finn got Poe's jacket, not before even though he was unconscious for a while.

Finn used the Force.

before someone jumps on me, the punchline is someone quotes and replies "that's not how the Force works
 
I believe it's because Finn doesn't weigh 5 tons

Plus you clearly see Finn struggling to get away from the Tie Fighter as it sinks. The Tie Fighter nearly sucks the guy down with it.

As for Rey beating Kylo I can't believe people are missing all the visual clues that were purposely put in to show that Kylo had become significantly weakened whilst Rey had the force start to awaken in her. I mean did people miss that Kylo had been shot by Chewies insanely over powered bowcaster ? Did people miss the pool of blood on the snow that the director purposely zoomed in on to show that Kylo had been weakened ? Did people miss all the visual clues that Kylo was struggling with coming to terms with killing his father.

Now TFA isn't a perfect film, I enjoyed it but it didn't feel as "epic" as Star Wars 4, 5 and 6 and there are lots of things you could criticise it for but to concentrate on Rey beating Kylo when it is pretty obvious why she beat him seems bizarre to me.
 
Finn used the Force.

before someone jumps on me, the punchline is someone quotes and replies "that's not how the Force works

That's not how the Force works, spoiler text. He had to use his midichlorians to communicate to the Force like a translator for Miyamoto.

Why doesn't stuff that would happen in the real world happen in the movie questions are best answered with because its a movie.

True, but once people start pulling at that thread, the illusion the movie makes will come undone.
 

HeySeuss

Member
I've heard some pretty crazy theories about who Rey and Snoke are and where they came from. I wonder how safe they'll play it with Rey. I'm guessing they'll go the easiest route and have her be Luke's daughter, but one theory I heard that I think would be cool is that she's the reincarnation of Anakin.

I've got no idea about the comics and books but Snoke is a new character right? Any possibility that he's Palpatines master? He said he had figured out some pretty high level things with the dark side of the force that the emperor said could make him immortal or something along those lines.

I hope he ties in somehow and isn't just some random baddie.
 

Balthuk

Member
Plus why does no-one complete their damn training before fighting to the death? Kylo's time to complete his training is now, snoke says. Why not before he nearly died?
 
Kylo has none. The difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader believes he had no choice. He was absolutely manipulated into a situation where he (wrongly) felt like his back was against the wall, and acted accordingly, and found himself in a place where he basically is left with nothing BUT Palpatine and his Empire to sustain him moving forward. It's only when the son he never knew he had pokes his head out of the ground and has the temerity to still believe in him after his botched seduction to the dark side that he starts seriously questioning who and what he is and why he's doing it.

Kylo's had multiple chances to go back to the light whenever he wanted. Nobody forced him to go dark. He just did it. And even after he did it, it's been made apparent he could come back. He just doesn't. He's a man who has refused prior redemption even though his parents are STILL putting their hands out there for him to take. And then his father personally approaches him with yet ANOTHER chance at redemption - and he kills him for it.

They're on different arcs entirely, and at different places in those arcs at the beginning of their respective trilogies. Vader basically understands that he bought his existence with his actions, and dedicates himself to making the most of that, so the sacrifice isn't meaningless. Kylo is all about racking up meaningless sacrifices in an effort to prove to himself he's the tortured, evil, powerful man he wants to be.

Vader had his redemption because someone showed him the door that he didn't know anyone could open. Kylo's always had an open door. He just keeps slamming it shut.

No one wants to see that kind of motherfucker get redemption. They want his ungrateful, stupid ass to catch the punishment he's begging to get. And I think that's going to be the conflict for some of our main characters: What do you do when the person who still has something worth fighting for isn't interested in your better interests, and refuses to let the light in? Again - he's a combination gambling addict/school shooter here, basically. And he's already stood by and watched as five planets blew up, and that's before he murdered his father. None of which he had to do, and he knows it. He's an unstable individual who talks to the burnt helmet of his dead grandfather, whose life he willfully misunderstands.

What kind of satisfying redemption do you come up with in answer to that?

You. I like you, Bobby.
 

Ghazi

Member
Plus why does no-one complete their damn training before fighting to the death? Kylo's time to complete his training is now, snoke says. Why not before he nearly died?
I'm guessing you don't really need full training when you're the only known force/saber user around. Kylo seemed more than capable, other than his emotional instability, up until the very end of the movie. By the time Rey/Finn posed actual threats, events were already too far in motion for Kylo to just go back and finish.
 

FloatOn

Member
btw I just saw this, star destroyer as a pc case.

6-yazi-venator-made-the-stand.jpg



https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=261967.50

that's fucking rad
 
Plus why does no-one complete their damn training before fighting to the death? Kylo's time to complete his training is now, snoke says. Why not before he nearly died?

Snoke: We'll finish your training later, right now we need to focus on finding and killing Luke Skywalker.

Kylo: Yeah but how do I defeat him if my tra-

Snoke: SILENCE!
 

Interfectum

Member
Plus why does no-one complete their damn training before fighting to the death? Kylo's time to complete his training is now, snoke says. Why not before he nearly died?

Because Kylo wasn't ready. He was clinging to his past, his parents, "tempted by the light", etc

Only by killing his father and, IMO, losing in battle can he be knocked down a peg or two and be reborn as a true villain.
 

The Chef

Member
Plus why does no-one complete their damn training before fighting to the death? Kylo's time to complete his training is now, snoke says. Why not before he nearly died?

What Interfectum said.
The movie pretty thoroughly shows that Kylo is still constantly battling the light. He struggles with it the entire movie until all light is removed from him when he kills his father. Only then is it that his training can be completed.
 

Alx

Member
I'm having a hard time seeing Kylo Ren being redeemed. Killing his own father seems to be the unforgivable sin. Granted, Vader killed children, friends, and blasted a whole planet, and still managed to get redemption. But there's something that feels different in Ren's case. Probably like Bobby says, because he got all the opportunities to go back to the light, and so seems more responsible of his acts. But I think the father thing also counts, I think it's the writer's way of saying "nope, this one is never coming back to your side".
 

HeySeuss

Member
What Interfectum said.
The movie pretty thoroughly shows that Kylo is still constantly battling the light. He struggles with it the entire movie until all light is removed from him when he kills his father. Only then is it that his training can be completed.

That's what Luke wants Snoke to believe. Kylo was planted by Luke to kill Snoke and the whole Kylo being on the dark side is a setup to kill him in the end and bring peace. Han knew he had to be killed by his son for the greater good, so that he could by trained in person by Snoke, and Kylo can kill him.
 

Ghazi

Member
That's what Luke wants Snoke to believe. Kylo was planted by Luke to kill Snoke and the whole Kylo being on the dark side is a setup to kill him in the end and bring peace. Han knew he had to be killed by his son for the greater good, so that he could by trained in person by Snoke, and Kylo can kill him.
Han's also on an island with 2pac and Elvis.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
So I just finished the novel, SOOOOO much more info explains and makes everything make sense.

Things I took from it that the movie missed (or cut).

- The Resistance did not have time to send more than the fleet they did to attack Starkiller Base. Akbar wanted time to regroup, get more of a fleet to attack, but Leah overruled him once they knew Starkiller was about to fire again, they knew they had to attack immediately.

- The creature that was trading rations to Rey tracks her to Maz's castles to get the Falcon back, Chewie literally rips off his arm when he tries taking Rey. (apparently this scene was filmed! Excited to see it in the deleted scenes)

- Rey dreams of the island that luke is on during her time on Jakku. Ren see's this in her mind, I believe this is said in the film too, but the book makes it much more clear. He doesnt make the connection that she is dreaming of the First Jedi Temple.

- There was a speeder chase from the Starkiller Command Center to the area they are trying to blow up, (Apparently this scene was filmed too! You can actually see the speeder bike parked outside when Rey and Finn run in)

- Starkiller base was intentionally not defended by the First Order's fleet to avoid attracting the Resistance. Fleet movements are carefully watched and they took all precaution to avoid their base being found.

- Snoke was watching Ren sence Ren was born, Leah knew this and thought she alone could protect Ben from his influence, she never told han. When Han is telling Leah its his fault they lost their child, Leah goes into the rant about how she knew the whole time that Ren had both equal good and bad and him and that Snoke was watching from the shadows, slowly manipulating him. Thats why she eventually sent him to luke for training, but it was too late. Leah feels everything is her fault (and she's pretty much right). While the book doesnt give a timeline, Leah and Han are officially still married but havnt seen each other for "Many years". So many in fact that C3P0 doesnt initially recognise Solo and has to take extra time to process the extra wrinkles and face chanes.

- The New Republic officially does not support the resistance, only a few senators do in private (thus why they are a rag tag bunch, all their money is private and hidden). Some of the senators secretly support the New Order. In the last 30 years the senate went from a dream come to life to a more standard political theater that involved back stabbing and standard polititan stuff.

- The book includes Ren finding the Falcon and spending time on it. Its super short though, but its a great scene as he's in the cockpit and sees the Xwings jump out of hyperspace and start attacking the base.

- Ren has a LOT of good, cut lines in the book. The way he talks to Rey about her not understand the First Order was great, and basically underscores the complete logical difference between the Resistance, Republic and First Order. Its all stuff we already know, but hearing Ren talk about bring about order from chaos, about how the Resistance fired first, about the failure of the New Republic all very much helps establish the current politcal atmosphere.

- The Storm Trooper armour CAN filter poison/gasses, just not in its default configuration, Finn goes into a long explanation saying you have to use different filter configurations for different gasses and the standard procedure for boarding a capture craft is to just be running on standard O2 tanks.

- Akbar debriefs Finn about Starkiller base and you get a lot more info regarding why its underprotected, how Finn is just guessing on how it works (but its confirmed from the reconosence mission they quickly send out). Also lead me to wonder if the the planet can move on its own, which one of the Disney producers twitter accounts confirmed thats the intent, and said it had also moved once before after the first shot at the new republic, but that opens a plot hole because the Resistance did not know the location of Starkiller base until Finn told them, but how we he know the new location of the base if it moved to absorb a new star?

- The whole story of how Poe got off Jakku is written out, takes a whole chapter and makes sense. Glad it wasnt in the movie as it was honestly pretty boring (but it did involve a speeder chase). Apparently after Finn ejected (which he did manually and was conscious of, which the film doesnt show), Poe woke up while still in free fall, he had enough time to bring the Tie Fighter in for a crash landing (thus why it was still mostely intact). The impact sent him flying out of the craft (his jacket staying behind). He couldnt find Finn so he set off to get back the New Republic because BB-8 had a tracking device installed..

- Speaking of that tracking device, C3P0 was the one responsible for insuring it was turned on... which he forgot to do. A small part of the book is him panicing that he has no way to find BB8 once the resistance learned that the droid and Poe were missing.

- The shields for Starkiller base were still lowered by Captain Phasma in the book, but she puts up more resistance, but chewie basically threatens to start ripping off limbs and han calls her out on trying to lie to him. She turns off the sheilds assuming they will be turned right back on once the command center sees they are off. To stop this Han destroys the shield room and wields the door shut with his blaster. Once the First Order realizes whats going on they try to override the shields from the command center, but are a second too late because the Xwings jump in just in time to get inside the shields before they come back on. The whole sequence is much more exciting and well done in the book than the movie and shows Poe as a great leader.

- Ren and Snoke discuss how the ONLY reason the Empire fell was because Vader gave into the light side and saved his family, that the light side is the sole reason for its fall and the ultimate evil basically. Thus why Ren is so affraid of the light side and fears it in him, he fears he'll do the same as Vader, thus why killing Han is the ultimate test. By doing it he proved he is not Vader, that he'll go the whole way and not give in to his light side.

- Ren is indeed playing with Fin during the fight, once he gets slightly touched by the lightsaber, Ren takes it seriously and ends it right away (though in the book the slice is across Finn's chest, not back).

- Its implied Snoke speaks to Rey in her mind when she beats Ren, telling her "Kill him" basically tempting her to the dark side.

- The books very slightly hints at a Rey/Poe relationship, with Rey and Poe embracing, than both being embarrassed, than Rey thinking she likes how he looks. May setup a love triangle for future films?

- Chewie gives the Falcon to Rey in the end, in a cute scene.
 

The Chef

Member
That's what Luke wants Snoke to believe. Kylo was planted by Luke to kill Snoke and the whole Kylo being on the dark side is a setup to kill him in the end and bring peace. Han knew he had to be killed by his son for the greater good, so that he could by trained in person by Snoke, and Kylo can kill him.

Interesting theory.
So are we to assume Luke was condoning Kylo's actions by murdering the other jedi?
 

Balthuk

Member
That's what Luke wants Snoke to believe. Kylo was planted by Luke to kill Snoke and the whole Kylo being on the dark side is a setup to kill him in the end and bring peace. Han knew he had to be killed by his son for the greater good, so that he could by trained in person by Snoke, and Kylo can kill him.

Cool theory but I don't think that it's true. Would be a surprising turn of events though. I just don't see Luke and the "good guys" in general to plant a person and make him go to the dark side, as it would be too dangerous to be consumed by it. Unless this is Luke's plan and not even Kylo knows it.

A friend suggested that the movie will go on like the first trilogy did, Rey in Luke's place. She will begin her training, then Fin will get in trouble and she will interrupt her training to save him.
 
I'm having a hard time seeing Kylo Ren being redeemed. Killing his own father seems to be the unforgivable sin. Granted, Vader killed children, friends, and blasted a whole planet, and still managed to get redemption. But there's something that feels different in Ren's case. Probably like Bobby says, because he got all the opportunities to go back to the light, and so seems more responsible of his acts. But I think the father thing also counts, I think it's the writer's way of saying "nope, this one is never coming back to your side".

We don't know the reason why Kylo went to the dark side yet. And Anakin had all sorts of opportunity to go back to the light, but he didn't. We all know that fear leads to hate and blah, so what did Kylo fear? That he wouldn't live up to his grandfather's standards? For me, that doesn't seem like something that would get Kylo in the patricidal mood.

Why else have him so conflicted after killing Han? I can see if it didn't bother him, but clearly, he was conflicted.
 
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