-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Yeah, it's most definitely not even Anakin's worst line. Those lines all come from the fireplace scene.
I was actually watching a fan edit of AotC last night that edited back in the deleted scenes. It threw off the pacing in its own way since it made everything even slower and was intercut with Obi-Wan's arc weirdly, but it reminded me that Lucas cut all of the good scenes with Anakin and Padme where their dialogue is much more natural (except for Anakin's line about the smell of flowers in Theed), Padme's family all seem like nice people, and you get somewhat of a better interaction between the two so that you can see how she'd find him attractive.
If these were all edited back in and the confession scene was cut out, their relationship would be much more believable. Not great, but it could work. You'd still have period drama-esque dialogue by the bucketload, but the older I get the more...quaint I guess I find it? It's obvious that Lucas wanted to portray these people as being part of high society so everything they say sounds flowery. He's just not very good at it, but I get what he was aiming for.
Jest Chillin
Member
So if the dying Trooper is indeed "Slip" from Finn's squad.. then does that make Traitor trooper "Nines" or "Zero?"
Because it's terribly delivered and written.
DragonSworne
Banned
"I don't like pepperoni pizza. It's greasy and oily and and the sauce gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth. Like you."
It sounds like something a teen would say, and I think he comes across natural saying that line. At least to me.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Saw it a 4th and, I think, final time in theaters. Some unexplained plot points are apparent by now (I know these have been covered elsewhere and far earlier):
1. How did Rey, as a lowly scavenger, know how to pilot the Falcon (and presumably that other ship that was blown up)?
2. Why did Leia hug Rey when she returned on the Falcon while Chewbacca, of all people, walked right past her?? This seems very awkward. Leia wouldn't have even met Rey yet, let alone share an emotional bond over, presumably, the death of Solo.
3. After the power thingy was blown up, Finn, Rey, and Kylo were suddenly fighting in a big, dense forest, but wide shots from the POV of the X-Wings showed nothing like a forest around that power thingy.
4. Han Solo / Kylo Ren reveal was an unfortunate mistake. Should have saved it for the end when Solo confronted Ben. It would have had far more emotional impact.
5. Luke should have force-pulled the saber from Ren's hand and IGNITED it. That would have been awesome.
I still love the film, I just wish they hadn't glossed over these plot points so poorly.
1. How did Rey, as a lowly scavenger, know how to pilot the Falcon (and presumably that other ship that was blown up)?
2. Why did Leia hug Rey when she returned on the Falcon while Chewbacca, of all people, walked right past her?? This seems very awkward. Leia wouldn't have even met Rey yet, let alone share an emotional bond over, presumably, the death of Solo.
3. After the power thingy was blown up, Finn, Rey, and Kylo were suddenly fighting in a big, dense forest, but wide shots from the POV of the X-Wings showed nothing like a forest around that power thingy.
4. Han Solo / Kylo Ren reveal was an unfortunate mistake. Should have saved it for the end when Solo confronted Ben. It would have had far more emotional impact.
5. Luke should have force-pulled the saber from Ren's hand and IGNITED it. That would have been awesome.
I still love the film, I just wish they hadn't glossed over these plot points so poorly.
That's actually the first time I've ever seen someone say that.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Guaranteed score.
We had Padme brush him off as a total creep (which he most certainly does act like one) 10 minutes earlier in the film too.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No it doesn't.
It doesn't sound like a thing any human of any age would say. Which is why people react to it negatively. It's one of the bigger restrictions Lucas imposed on himself for no good reason: He took a pair of people who have "emotionally buried" as a character trait, directed them to be reserved, and then had them "flirt" with each other for about 30 minutes, while giving them weird dialogue intended to highlight how different times were in the Prequel-era.
He kept putting characters in situations where you want people to act like people, and kept forcing his people to act like monks. It short-circuited a large part of what made Star Wars fun.
Part of why The Force Awakens works the way it does is that the characters sound like people, and act/react like people. There are recognizable traits in all the characters that make them identifiable and relatable, and those things aren't hidden or buried under questionable storytelling decisions. They're right up front.
"I hate sand" is dumb. It doesn't sound like anything a teenager would say, much less a 19 year old hothead/gearhead monk who has, apparently, been traipsing around the galaxy with his mulleted Master fighting 'round the worlds.
Saw it for the second time today. Once again, the theater was packed. I liked it even more this time around. Some random thoughts:
- The first 30-45 minutes is the best Star Wars I've seen since Return of the Jedi in '83. Very tight and tactically focused and well-paced. Somewhere around when the Starkiller base fires though, the movie seems to get a little sloppy. Lots of cuts and quick action, which I glossed over much easier this time when I wasn't nitpicking every little thing.
- Still not a fan of Maz and her castle. She just seems so boring and plain to me, and her design just seems generic.
- I've been hard on Kylo since I first saw it, and he came across much less offensive this time. I still think he's a bit whiny, but meh, not terrible. One thing I did notice, is both times, the crowd laughed when he first took his helmet off. I equate it to opening that big gift under the tree that you're anticipating to find out it's just socks
- The whole X-wing run on Starkiller base at the end was pretty sloppy overall. Still wasn't a fan of it.
- Han's death scene, I dunno, seems like something is still missing. I think it would have helped if they spent a couple of minutes showing Han and Leia's relationship with him. Give us some context of just how much they loved him. As it stands, it just seemed kinda hokey to me and I just can't believe the wittiest smuggler in the universe would just walk up to him like that.
- The lightsaber battle at the end. Functionally, I think it worked and I enjoyed it. I think the thing that really bothers me overall though, is what's at stake (or not). With the duels in the original trilogy, there was lots of emotion behind them. It wasn't so much about the moves as it was the sincerity behind them. I feel like nothing was really accomplished in this one as an end result. That divide that opens up and saves Kylo though, boy, that was still hard to swallow. Rolled my eyes again.
Overall, still really like it. The thing that bugs me about it though, as after seeing it twice now is I'm not sure if I need to see it again. Whereas we've always watched the originals in my household repeatedly (i'm 40, my son's 9, daughter 12), I'm not sure this one really has any reason to come back. The death of Han is about the most pivotal part, but the rest of it just flows plainly with nothing really happening in the end.
- The first 30-45 minutes is the best Star Wars I've seen since Return of the Jedi in '83. Very tight and tactically focused and well-paced. Somewhere around when the Starkiller base fires though, the movie seems to get a little sloppy. Lots of cuts and quick action, which I glossed over much easier this time when I wasn't nitpicking every little thing.
- Still not a fan of Maz and her castle. She just seems so boring and plain to me, and her design just seems generic.
- I've been hard on Kylo since I first saw it, and he came across much less offensive this time. I still think he's a bit whiny, but meh, not terrible. One thing I did notice, is both times, the crowd laughed when he first took his helmet off. I equate it to opening that big gift under the tree that you're anticipating to find out it's just socks
- The whole X-wing run on Starkiller base at the end was pretty sloppy overall. Still wasn't a fan of it.
- Han's death scene, I dunno, seems like something is still missing. I think it would have helped if they spent a couple of minutes showing Han and Leia's relationship with him. Give us some context of just how much they loved him. As it stands, it just seemed kinda hokey to me and I just can't believe the wittiest smuggler in the universe would just walk up to him like that.
- The lightsaber battle at the end. Functionally, I think it worked and I enjoyed it. I think the thing that really bothers me overall though, is what's at stake (or not). With the duels in the original trilogy, there was lots of emotion behind them. It wasn't so much about the moves as it was the sincerity behind them. I feel like nothing was really accomplished in this one as an end result. That divide that opens up and saves Kylo though, boy, that was still hard to swallow. Rolled my eyes again.
Overall, still really like it. The thing that bugs me about it though, as after seeing it twice now is I'm not sure if I need to see it again. Whereas we've always watched the originals in my household repeatedly (i'm 40, my son's 9, daughter 12), I'm not sure this one really has any reason to come back. The death of Han is about the most pivotal part, but the rest of it just flows plainly with nothing really happening in the end.
The Librarian
Banned
Just commenting on a few things:
1. She said she's flown before but has never left the planet, and she's obviously been inside it before seeing as she knows where the gunner position is.
5. Having this happen would've robbed Rey of fulfilling her arc. There wouldn't have been another opportunity to satisfy it, and having Luke come in to save the day would've placed our protagonist in the back seat...which isn't fun.
TheSchwab_7
Member
Going to go see it for a second time at 7pm. We went at 4pm assuming that the hype had died down and we would able to get a good seat....NOPE! Everything was sold out. Even at the second theater we went to. We were able to get a seat finally, but dang I'm surprised how busy it still is.
I'm going in with the mindset that Kylo Ren is actually a double agent for Luke/Resistance. I saw this video on Youtube about that theory and it interested me. Han mentioning he'd do whatever to help him, seduction by the light side, Snoke only giving Ren training after he killed his father.
I don't think they'd actually do this in the long run, but it's a cool little theory to think about.
I'm going in with the mindset that Kylo Ren is actually a double agent for Luke/Resistance. I saw this video on Youtube about that theory and it interested me. Han mentioning he'd do whatever to help him, seduction by the light side, Snoke only giving Ren training after he killed his father.
I don't think they'd actually do this in the long run, but it's a cool little theory to think about.
I still disagree. Admittedly, I haven't watched the other ones for quite some time now but the stupidity of the new movie is just beyond annoying.
SiegfriedFM
Member
2. Chewbacca probably didn't want to face it right at that point + he was tending to Finn + he's not the main character. Also, Leia would know about Rey since they went there to rescue her, and Rey would know about Leia, and probably feel a bit guilty about Han. With Chewbacca and Finn busy, she's the one who has to confront Leia. Also, main character.
4. I liked it. It just revealed itself naturally during the movie instead of attempting another "I am your father" retread. Besides, there would never have been a good reason to say it since both characters are fully aware of it already.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
1. Really? I didn't catch that that she said she'd flown before.
5. Well she's holding out his saber to him. I assume Luke is going to have to step up and train her, and presumably that means holding a lightsaber at some point. I think him doing what I described is just a re-acceptance of the Jedi Master mantle that he needs to have to bring order/peace/whatever back to the galaxy. I just wanted him to ignite it, look at it, and then look back to her or something...anything but stand there with his mouth hanging open.
Also, the crowd was huge at the 2pm showing. It was as big or bigger than most movies I've seen on opening weekend. This thing is a juggernaut.
More_Badass
Member
Because of opinions
Can't agree here. I think a lot of the tension that made that scene for quite a few folks is the fact that you already knew of their relationship, and had some time to mull over the fact that it could have gone either way, especially considering that VI ended with redemption, and there still was a 'big bad' (Snoke) left for the sequels.
And then stabbity happens.
EdReedFan20
Member
Saw it for a second time today. Liked it better than I did the first time!
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Less than ideal writing that we shrug off till the sequel.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
No medal after blowing up the Death Star. Having to put up with that family of his every Life Day.
I don't think Leia likes Chewie that much.
bigwinnerx
Member
I'm pushing back my (#5 total) Smithsonian Air and Space 70mm 2D film IMAX showing as far as I can so crowds are less than packed to the gills.
I keep seeing people talk about how they saw it coming almost as if it's a bad thing. When exactly did you see it coming? When was it telegraphed for you?
Was it when he confronted Kylo? Cus that's the whole point of that scene, you know he's either going to convince Kylo to come back to the dark side or he's going to be killed.
The tension came from waiting to see if he was going to be successful in saving Kylo and walking away alive.
You should watch them again because I and II are not just bad Star Wars movies but they're just bad in general. They're two really poorly made films.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The Chewie thing isn't even that big a deal.
1) He just tried to murder her son.
2) He's concerned with getting Finn medical attention.
3) She's looking right past him to Rey, anyway.
If they'd just pushed in on the shot a little bit more, you wouldn't have even seen Chewie on the edge of the frame as Leia looks at Rey, and a large number of these complaints probably wouldn't be lodged.
But yeah - Chewie's all about getting Finn patched up at that point. Also, Chewie doesn't seem to be the kind of character that's about hugging in those instances. When he thought Han was dead on Hoth, he didn't walk over to Leia and hug her, either. He howled at the sky and thunked his head on some metal thing or another. Emotionally distressed Chewie likes to be by himself, I guess.
1) He just tried to murder her son.
2) He's concerned with getting Finn medical attention.
3) She's looking right past him to Rey, anyway.
If they'd just pushed in on the shot a little bit more, you wouldn't have even seen Chewie on the edge of the frame as Leia looks at Rey, and a large number of these complaints probably wouldn't be lodged.
But yeah - Chewie's all about getting Finn patched up at that point. Also, Chewie doesn't seem to be the kind of character that's about hugging in those instances. When he thought Han was dead on Hoth, he didn't walk over to Leia and hug her, either. He howled at the sky and thunked his head on some metal thing or another. Emotionally distressed Chewie likes to be by himself, I guess.
-It was the same old shit all over again. Overpowered poor kid on some desert planet, baddies built another Death Star, he is his father, Death Star goes boom.
-The "coincidences" (e.g. Millenium Falcon was there, Han and Chewy found it when the others got it...).
-Kylo Ren being a pussy. He isn't even capable of beating Finn in a light saber battle when some shitty Stormtrooper did in a melee battle at the tavern. And no, the minor injury doesn't count.
-Rey being so overpowered out of nowhere.
-Why didn't they hit the fucking Resistance base at first with the Starkiller?
-The Resistance lost half their fleet at one point in the last battle. It looked like some minor skirmish.
-Was their really any need for the new faction names when it didn't change much?
And theirs suck. I knew I couldn't count on some of theirs anyway.
Well, right after it was mentioned that he was his son it was said that it would be the real test blablabla. Han then follows Kylo on a bridge (same old shit like always).
I think he meant force pull it out of Rey's hands at the end not during the ren fight
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Chewie hugs Leia after they blow up a couple frickin' Tie Fighters. I think they can spare a moment over the death of someone they both love(d) dearly. It's not a deal breaker, it just seems like it would have been far more natural for that scene.
So Finn didn't get his ass kicked so badly that he was left in a coma at the end of the movie?
He managed to hit Kylo with the light saber.
Also, I forgot to mention I disliked Kylo Ren's face.
As she and Finn are running to the (intended) escape ship, Finn says they need a pilot, and Rey says, "We've got one,", while gesturing to herself.
Later, after they get to orbit in the Falcon, they have that excited scene where they are kind of talking over each other. One of the exchanges is Finn asking Rey how she did that, and she replies, "I don't know. I've flown before but never off-planet." At that point Finn is talking over her again. I didn't catch it until my second watch, it goes by fast.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's a victory. Not a defeat. In defeat, Chewie doesn't act the same way.
Again, it's not even a big deal. Chewie's hustling after Finn, who he just carried off the Falcon (returning the favor after Finn patched him up earlier in the film) in his arms. Leia's not even LOOKING at Chewie, but Rey.
The "spare a moment" criticism doesn't seem to have anything to do with the film, really. He hugs her after seeing her for the first time in forever. Later that day, she asks his best friend to try and bring back their asshole son because she believes he can be redeemed. That request gets Han killed, and Chewie tries to kill that motherfucker as soon as he gets a clear shot.
It's possible that the combination of "Gotta get Finn help" and "I dumped a bowcaster shot in your asshole son after he murdered my best friend," and "She's not even looking at me right now anyway so fuck it" lead to Chewie just walking right on by. It doesn't seem like Leia noticed him anyway.
It's such a minor nitpick for a moment that wouldn't have necessarily helped the film had it happened. How it played out seemed very natural as it was.
bigwinnerx
Member
Chewie hugs Leia after they blow up a couple frickin' Tie Fighters. I think they can spare a moment over the death of someone they both love(d) dearly. It's not a deal breaker, it just seems like it would have been far more natural for that scene.
Chewie giving Leia a hug after the attack on Maz's castle was one of my "who's cutting onions" bits.
FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
I don't have the gifs but I'm sure someone does.
Kylo was just toying with him and could have killed Finn at anytime. At some point he knocks Finn down and instead of killing him he walks away, pounds on his chest and waits for Finn to attack again.
At the point that Finn gets a lucky hit on Kylo, Kylo stops playing around and shits all over him.
So his death was telegraphed because they said Kylo was his son?
And let's not forget you went into the moving KNOWING he was going to die so how can you objectively say it was "telegraphed". Tons of twists in movies are 'telegraphed' if you know the twist before it happens.
Jest Chillin
Member
-Gross over simplification.
-Coincidences are par for the course for the entire series and are quite common for most movies. It's what ties characters together.
-Kylo is just angrily toying with Finn until Finn lands a lucky shot on Kylo's arm. Then Kylo's next two swings disarm Finn and slice his back.
-Rey tapping into the force is, again, par for the course for Star Wars.
-They didn't have the location of The Resistance base until they captured Rey and pulled it out of her head.
-They didn't lose half their fleet, they lost half the Fighters that were in the battle, which is important because if they lose all those fighters, their base will get blown up.
-They're a different organization but why would they just abandoned the perfectly good leftover resources and infrastructure of the Empire?
Opinions
It's a fucking dumb one that should have no valid grounds to be present in judging the merit of a character that people have referred to way too many goddamned times.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Like, at least get your talking points in order before you start rattling them off like it's your own unique hot take
No, Snoke said his final test will be when he meets his father (this was when it was revealed that Han was his father).
She knows how to pilot ships in general (source: She says so) and was involved in the repairs/modifications Unkar Plutt made to them
Because Rey really, really needed a hug.
Whoops
I disagree, it was important to see Kylo Ren unmasked previously to setup what happened on the bridge.
wtf you are the second person to say that and it literally makes negative amounts of sense
Jest Chillin
Member
Snoke actually says that Han will be his greatest test and he's referencing the fact that he knows Kylo still has the Lightside pulling at him. The line isn't forshadowing Kylo having to kill Han, it's forshadowing that Han would try to pull Kylo to the Lightside again. Killing Han is Kylo's own decision made in attempt to eliminate that possibility.
So at this point you knew Han was going to be killed because before you saw the movie you knew he was going to die? Gotcha.
I guess next time JJ needs to make it so you don't get spoiled.
Note the exchange when he knocks Finn down. Finn does three swings, and Ren blocks effortlessly. Ren then counters with three blows that puts Finn flat on his back.He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:
He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.
Finn gets up and:
Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.
Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:
Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).
He's just toying with them.
He's putting him in his place.
Actually, the people who watched it with me knew without being spoilered beforehand.
Anyway, we can argue about the relatively minor issues all day but the main one, that the plot is just too samey for me, isn't really discussable. You like it, fine, I HATE it.
Come on, it is a movie. It's not like they meet and he tries to convince him and he just says no and nothing happens. It is apparent that Kylo has to do something horribly to show he is on the dark side.
I remember someone saying that the Finn V Kylo fight was going to go down something like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pLbcLrquio
Turned out to be true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pLbcLrquio
Turned out to be true.
Similar threads
- Poll