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[Imperfected]

You can't just make a lightsaber. You need to be force sensitive to find the crystal required to make a lightsaber.

But that does beg the question, there use to be thousands of Jedi's, what happened to all their lightsabers? Why is no one using them?

If SW taught us anything, it's that lightsabers can be lost, stolen, etc.
If anybody can use them, there would be bounty hunters going specifically after them, meaning stealing, all the time. And as you said Jedi die, lightsabers don't.

You guys are either under-thinking this or over-thinking it, I'm not sure which.

There used to be hundreds of thousands of samurai, but you don't see everyone walking around with a katana or bounty hunters ranging across the world trying to steal sweet-ass Japanese swords. A lightsaber is just a fancy sword in the hands of a normal person, no one cares about them that much.

 

[Gonzalez]

Finn didn't say he was opposed to killing in general, he said he didn't want to kill for them, them being the First Order. He describes the First Order as slaughterers and adding "you don't know them like I do".

So clearly I don't think Finn sees the First Order as buddies but more as murderers.

So he's like Dexter. He enjoys killing, but only if he doesn't feel guilty about it.

 

[Brakke]

As for him killing other troopers, would the audience rather him let them kill him or should he fight to survive?

This is kind of begging the question though. You're buying in to the events of the film as given. In any demonstrated case of Finn killing a Stormtrooper in this movie we can say that yeah, fine, that was an ok decision for him to make right there. My discomfort with Finn rolls way farther back. "Should I defend myself or die" isn't an interesting question. An interesting question is something like "should I finish off this defeated enemy or should I let him live since I recognize that he, like me, is a victim of kidnapping and brainwashing and torture and abuse". The failing isn't Finn's necessarily -- I understand and basically condone all the choices he makes re murder -- but rather the script failed Finn by not giving him an opportunity to make a harder choice re murder.

The movie opens up an interesting moral space for thinking about Stormtroopers but then totally neglects to set any scenes to explore that space.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Biggs trained at the imperial flight academy before bailing to the rebellion. Presumably it was filled with cadets like him or Luke who just wanted a chance to get off their backwater planet. Yet he didn't seem to have any hesitation shooting down TIE pilots. Naturally, this is offscreen information, unlike Finn, but the movies seem to say people will do what needs to be done for their beliefs in (star) war.

 

[DrForester]

So, was the Starkiller base in a binary system? Because it didn't go dark when the fired it the first time.

 

[-griffy-]

So, was the Starkiller base in a binary system? Because it didn't go dark when the fired it the first time.

It's a big ass space ship. It can move.

 

[Gonzalez]

It's a big ass space ship. It can move.

No it's a planet, that was converted into a weapon. It couldn't move anymore.

 

[-griffy-]

No it's a planet, that was converted into a weapon. It couldn't move anymore.

It's a planet that was converted into a big ass space ship with a big ass weapon on it. It can move just like the Death Star could move, it just didn't have a reason to in this film since it was already parked by a sun for ammo. It was already charged up from some other sun before parking there, shot up the Hosnian system which drained it, then sucked up that sun to recharge.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

No it's a planet, that was converted into a weapon. It couldn't move anymore.

Yeah, it can.

Starkiller Base was mobile. In order to be used, it consumed a star before moving on to another. As Starkiller Base was charged through the power of stars, it gradually blocked out sunlight until, running at full capacity, it extinguished it completely, leaving the surface in darkness.

 

[Gonzalez]

Yeah, it can.

Was this shown in the movie, or is this wookiepedia pullng something out of its ass?

 

[Mama Robotnik]

But it's so inefficient!

Ha thanks for sharing that, really enjoyed it!

 

[Vyer]

There are 3 complaints that I think are overdone in this thread, one is Finn killing stormtroopers, I know people think they were his comrades or family even if a movie doesn't imply anything of sorts. It's probably how people think they think they would feel. I'm just amazed that so many people assume it's this way without any reasons whatsoever.

Yup. The 'but it's his comrade!' stuff doesn't really make much sense or have any kind of support in the star wars movies as a whole. I don't see any issue with Finn's actions there, and spelling out what is pretty obvious really would detract from the movie, so I'm glad they didn't.

 

[sphagnum]

Was this shown in the movie, or is this wookiepedia pullng something out of its ass?

It's in the novelization.

 

[yyzjohn]

Just saw it, Kylo sucks. He got his ass handed to him by someone who not only wasn't trained in the force, she didn't even believe it was real at the beginning of the movie. Nice training there loser.


So is Rey supposed to be the sister of that shmo? Twins like Luke/Leia?

 

[DrForester]

No it's a planet, that was converted into a weapon. It couldn't move anymore.

How? I didn't see any engines.

Yeah, it can.

Doesn't explain why it was light out when the fired it the first time.

 

[-griffy-]

Was this shown in the movie, or is this wookiepidea pullng something out of its ass?

What the movie tells us is that Starkiller Base is a big ass planet converted into a First Order base with a big ass weapon on it that depletes a sun in order to charge a weapon. Therefore logic dictates that it must be able to move to a new sun in order to recharge the weapon.

It didn't have a reason to move in the film since it was already parked near a sun to recharge, and it can fire at targets from across the galaxy, so it doesn't need to move into position in order to target the Resistance base at the end. But it would obviously need to move to a new star after extinguishing the one it was near, lest it be a completely useless weapon. So again, the internal logic of the thing tells us it must be mobile.

That's all just based on the movie. Then of course all the supplemental material confirms that it is indeed mobile.

How? I didn't see any engines.

Did you see the engines of the Death Star? Just some magic sci-fi-fantasy bullshit technology making planet-sized bases move. It doesn't matter how. At all.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Was this shown in the movie, or is this wookiepedia pullng something out of its ass?

Well it makes sense really. How does it use multiple suns if it can't move? You'd only be able to use it once.

 

[Snake]

Starkiller Base can jump to other systems just like the Death Star can: Off-screen, because it would be weird to see it happen.

 

[DrForester]

Did you see the engines of the Death Star? Just some magic sci-fi-fantasy bullshit technology making planet-sized bases move.

No, but in fairness, the Death Star was a heck of a lot smaller, and a fully constructed base.

Slapping an engine on a planet is just stupid.

 

[Pagusas]

What the movie tells us is that Starkiller Base is a big ass planet converted into a First Order base with a big ass weapon on it that depletes a sun in order to charge a weapon. Therefore logic dictates that it must be able to move to a new sun in order to recharge the weapon.

It didn't have a reason to move in the film since it was already parked near a sun to recharge, and it can fire at targets from across the galaxy, so it doesn't need to move into position in order to target the Resistance base at the end. But it would obviously need to move to a new star after extinguishing the one it was near, lest it be a completely useless weapon. So again, the internal logic of the thing tells us it must be mobile.

That's all just based on the movie. Then of course all the supplemental material confirms that it is indeed mobile.

It can move. A Star Wars Disney writer on Twitter confirmed this. It moved after it fired the first time.

This opens up two problems though:

1. The first time it fired the sky didn't go dark like it did before almost firing the 2nd time

2. The bigger issue: How did Finn know the NEW location of it? If it moved after firing the first time, and he knew its location as he had served on it before he bailed, how would he have know it's new location?

 

[Brakke]

Biggs trained at the imperial flight academy before bailing to the rebellion. Presumably it was filled with cadets like him or Luke who just wanted a chance to get off their backwater planet. Yet he didn't seem to have any hesitation shooting down TIE pilots. Naturally, this is offscreen information, unlike Finn, but the movies seem to say people will do what needs to be done for their beliefs in (star) war.

Killing Imperial volunteers is different than killing Order slaves. In any case, violence against the Empire could still be uncomfortable and more complicated than those movies explore, but that's ok because the OT basically sidesteps those questions entirely. The premise of Finn opens a question the movie doesn't actually care about asking, which is why it feels weak to me. TFA tries to have its cake and eat it.

Yup. The 'but it's his comrade!' stuff doesn't really make much sense or have any kind of support in the star wars movies as a whole. I don't see any issue with Finn's actions there, and spelling out what is pretty obvious really would detract from the movie, so I'm glad they didn't.

It doesn't need to be about comrade-ship to be uncomfortable. Basic sympathy and identification should be enough to make him uncomfortable.

How? I didn't see any engines.

You may have, actually. In space a gun functions the same as a thruster. Starkiller under thrust looks the same as Starkiller firing: a planet emitting a furious stream of plasma out one end.

 

[mrkgoo]

I still think we're not getting the whole story from just one movie. The fact that he was the only one to break his brainwash out of the entire fleet( only based on nobody else defecting from the FO at the time), makes me think that he is force sensitive to some extent(Force awakens). From what I remember Phasma and Hux have never had this problem with other troopers.. Having the force break his brainwash helped him see his friend die, and all those other soldiers kill innocent people really made him say Fuck the FO Im out. Who knows maybe part of his story arch is to ultimately take down Phasma, and save other Stormtroopers from their brainwashing which will help dismantle the FO. As for him killing other troopers, would the audience rather him let them kill him or should he fight to survive? The dude was conflicted, and he ultimately made his choice to run away when he helped Poe. Hopefully episode 8 will shed more light

Phasma mentions that there is not prior history of non-conformity, thus implying that there have been others and the usual protocol is to undergo reconditioning.

I think Finn just broke out of for "reasons" to make a cool character. You might ask why him? Well, why not. If it wasn't him it may have been somebody else, and then the story would be about them.

 

[KingSnake]

Oh, I get it. Finn just switches from "I don't want to kill" to killing FO people left and right pretty quick. It's not what Star Wars is about, but I imagine seeing him more conflicted and having more complex feelings about it in some other context would have been interesting.

This is me. I think Finn would be more interesting if he was conflicted over it.

He doesn't say that he doesn't want to kill in a fight. in a war. He can't shoot the prisoners, which is war crime and against common sense. And all his colleagues didn't have any issue with that and they wouldn't have any issue with killing him if given the opportunity. So when he decides to run away, it becomes a matter of survival, it becomes practically a different war. Shooting at the other side in a war is fair game as opposed to killing prisoners or millions of civilians on some planets.

 

[-griffy-]

No, but in fairness, the Death Star was a heck of a lot smaller, and a fully constructed base.

Slapping an engine on a planet is just stupid.

A lot of shit in Star Wars is stupid if you try to apply real world rules to it.

 

[Good Job Bob]

It can move. A Star Wars Disney writer on Twitter confirmed this. It moved after it fired the first time.

This opens up two problems though:

1. The first time it fired the sky didn't go dark like it did before almost firing the 2nd time

2. The bigger issue: How did Finn know the NEW location of it? If it moved after firing the first time, and he knew its location as he had served on it before he bailed, how would he have know it's new location?

I thought Finn only showed the Resistance where the weakness of Starkiller was located within it, they already knew where the Starkiller base itself was.

 

[KingSnake]

Killing Imperial volunteers is different than killing Order slaves. In any case, violence against the Empire could still be uncomfortable and more complicated than those movies explore, but that's ok because the OT basically sidesteps those questions entirely. The premise of Finn opens a question the movie doesn't actually care about asking, which is why it feels weak to me. TFA tries to have its cake and eat it.

Why do Jedi kill clones?

 

[-griffy-]

It can move. A Star Wars Disney writer on Twitter confirmed this. It moved after it fired the first time.

This opens up two problems though:

1. The first time it fired the sky didn't go dark like it did before almost firing the 2nd time

2. The bigger issue: How did Finn know the NEW location of it? If it moved after firing the first time, and he knew its location as he had served on it before he bailed, how would he have know it's new location?

It didn't move at all in the film. It was presumably stationed there for years. The weapon was already charged when we are introduced to it in the movie. The sky doesn't go dark when the weapon fires, it goes dark when the weapon recharges by killing a sun. So sometime between ROTJ ends and TFA begins, they create Starkiller Base, it eats some sun somewhere to charge the weapon, then moves to the location we see it in TFA.

Then in TFA it fires at the Hosnian system, depleting the weapon. The sky remains bright since it didn't do anything to the sun it was near at this point. Now it starts slurping on that sun it is already near, darkening the sky as the sun dies and the weapon recharges. Then the Resistance blows it up.

 

[Vyer]

Killing Imperial volunteers is different than killing Order slaves. In any case, violence against the Empire could still be uncomfortable and more complicated than those movies explore, but that's ok because the OT basically sidesteps those questions entirely. The premise of Finn opens a question the movie doesn't actually care about asking, which is why it feels weak to me. TFA tries to have its cake and eat it.



It doesn't need to be about comrade-ship to be uncomfortable. Basic sympathy and identification should be enough to make him uncomfortable.
.

Yes, and it does. There's no support that he has some sort of 'comrade-ship' though (or that it exists within Stormtroopers) and the idea that such a relationship should effect his actions has no support.

 

[Gonzalez]

Why do Jedi kill clones?

When did Jedi kill clones?

 

[axb2013]

We all got a chicken-duck-woman thing waiting for us...

"Bushes of Love", hot new single from Obi Wan Kenobi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RySHDUU2juM

 

[heliosRAzi]

Yes, and it does. There's no support that he has some sort of 'comrade-ship' though (or that it exists within Stormtroopers) and the idea that such a relationship should effect his actions has no support.

I'd say that the support for it is that he freaks out after his comrade dies. That's when his awakening all starts.

Even if we take what Griffy posted a couple of days ago...

Finn gets upset by the space Nazi dying and smearing blood on him because he realizes that could be him. He doesn't necessarily give a shit about the one who died, or that his "buddies" are dying around him, it freaks him out because in that moment he realizes they are all being asked to give their lives for the cause, a cause he is seeing first hand is fucked up and involves indiscriminately slaughtering innocents and executing prisoners. That moment is him realizing his life has been a lie, his "buddies" are cool with dying for the First Order, have no problem killing anyone for any reason. The blood represents his potential death for a cause he doesn't believe in, so he wants the fuck out, and takes his first opportunity to do so.

...I would expect Finn to realize that the other Stormtroopers are like him. They've all been brainwashed. They've all been programmed. Some even been through reconditioning before. Finn should show some hesitance before blasting them away. The movie glosses over this interesting aspect of him because they wanted a character who worked for the bad guys, but didn't do anything bad yet.

 

[DrForester]

Resistance just needs to make their own planet weapon.

 

[nib95]

So he's like Dexter. He enjoys killing, but only if he doesn't feel guilty about it.

He will kill bad people, or to save his own life, not innocents who have done nothing to deserve it.

 

[Einchy]

So he's like Dexter. He enjoys killing, but only if he doesn't feel guilty about it.

He's like a soldier.

 

[Gonzalez]

He will kill bad people, or to save his own life, not innocents who have done nothing to deserve it.

He looked super satisfied while killing brainwashed Troopers, with the Lightsaber.

 

[Brakke]

Why do Jedi kill clones?

They don't tho? I guess Yoda bops those troopers on Kashyyk right before they try to murder him.

 

[boxter432]

They don't tho? I guess Yoda bops those troopers on Kashyyk right before they try to murder him.

In the clone wars show, one Jedi general takes over a squad/battalion for Anakin and continually puts the clones in near unwinnable situations bc he hates them. And then he kills a bunch with his light saber.
Not really related to first order/stormtrooper killings but it happened.

 

[Imperfected]

Yeah, it can.

I suppose you could say it's capable of making star treks into darkness.

 

[Fusilli Craig]

Man! How did JJ not have Luke force pull his lightsabre from Rey and fire it up right before the credits rolled?!

Instead they just stared at each other at length. Blue balls.

 

[Vyer]

I'd say that the support for it is that he freaks out after his comrade dies. That's when his awakening all starts.

Even if we take what Griffy posted a couple of days ago...



...I would expect Finn to realize that the other Stormtroopers are like him. They've all been brainwashed. They've all been programmed. Some even been through reconditioning before. Finn should show some hesitance before blasting them away. The movie glosses over this interesting aspect of him because they wanted a character who worked for the bad guys, but didn't do anything bad yet.

They're not all like him.

They are the brainwashed machine he was able to reject. And they are actively trying to kill and/or capture him and the people that don't do all the evil horrible things they do. when he makes the decision to survive and has to fight his way out is the TIE scene. Trying to interject another (unnecessary, seeing as how we've had his moments on Jakku and back on the ship) moment of contemplation or hesitance or whatever at that point would have been a bad decision IMO.

I still don't see any support that his 'freaking out' was about anything having to do with a relationship or comradery of any sort for that other trooper.

 

[Brakke]

In the clone wars show, one Jedi general takes over a squad/battalion for Anakin and continually puts the clones in near unwinnable situations bc he hates them. And then he kills a bunch with his light saber.
Not really related to first order/stormtrooper killings but it happened.

Yooo that's fucked up. One of these days I'll push through the garbage of the early parts of that show, there's clearly cool stuff in there...

 

[-griffy-]

He looked super satisfied while killing brainwashed Troopers, with the Lightsaber.

Troopers who were razing Maz's castle to the ground and killing most everyone in sight, sure. Immediately after Finn saw they had just used their super weapon, causing mass devastation, no less.

Look, even if people feel like we should feel sympathy for the troopers since they are largely taken as children and trained/brainwashed into the First Order, that doesn't change the fact that as adults they are committed and dangerous people who will do whatever the First Order asks of them, seemingly emotionally engaged enough that they will be angry with Finn for being a traitor. In this Star Wars-good-vs.-evil movie, those boots-on-the-ground troopers are beyond saving at this point. They are bad guys. If you want to "save" the brainwashed troopers, it's gotta be way earlier in the process, during the training and before they are in combat. Finn and his moral center clashing so severely with them makes him unique, which is also exactly what makes him one of our main characters.

There's a potentially interesting story there exploring all this stuff. Maybe it's explored in VIII, maybe it's in a comic or novel, but it's not the story of Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

 

[Fencedude]

No it's a planet, that was converted into a weapon. It couldn't move anymore.

Starkiller Base 100% can move

Why couldn't it?

 

[ultracal31]

Yooo that's fucked up. One of these days I'll push through the garbage of the early parts of that show, there's clearly cool stuff in there...

Worse part is to cover his tracks the Jedi tried to get the clones to kill each other by pretending the "enemy" troopers were wearing stolen uniforms

http://youtu.be/o6QC_oPLVFs

 

[Gleethor]

Worse part is to cover his tracks the Jedi tried to get the clones to kill each other by pretending the "enemy" troopers were wearing stolen uniforms

http://youtu.be/o6QC_oPLVFs

One of the best Clone Wars arcs for sure.

 

[sphagnum]

Pong Krell had turned to the dark side and believed that the separatists were going to win the war, so he wanted to kill as many clones as possible to get on Dooku's good side. He's not exactly a typical example of a Jedi.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Yooo that's fucked up. One of these days I'll push through the garbage of the early parts of that show, there's clearly cool stuff in there...

Best military arc IMO. Shit was surprisingly brutal because it's not just droids but indigenous aliens who the troopers shoot.

 

[ultracal31]

One of the best Clone Wars arcs for sure.

No doubt, I rank it slightly higher than the Ahsoka trial arc.

Only slightly though as they're both very good arcs

 

[Jest Chillin]

I find it hard to believe that the majority of the fleet was in dry dock or that the New Republic would cut down their fleet significantly if there are threats out there like the New Order (and for all we know the New Order isn't the only Imperial faction remaining). It's not really a situation like WW2 where most of our Pacific Fleet was at Pear Harbor, the size of the Star Wars Galaxy is so much bigger then our oceans and would require a massive fleet.

The First* Order and the New Republic have a peace treaty. Whether or not there are other threats remains to be seen. As for finding it hard to believe.. I mean that's up to you be the dialogue in the movie pretty much confirms that the vast majority, if not the entirety of, the Republic fleet was destroyed in the attack from Starkiller Base

So would it have been a strech to put this what you said in 1-2 minute scenes so that it's clear. These 5 seconds we saw from the planet plus the content from the Hux speech is not really much to describe this.

I have no idea if it would've been a stretch or not. Maybe they wanted to stay away from talking about things they had no intention of showing?

 

[heliosRAzi]

I still don't see any support that his 'freaking out' was about anything having to do with a relationship or comradery of any sort for that other trooper.

So the freak out just comes out of nowhere because a random stormtrooper placed a bloody hand on Finn's helmet. Finn was about to help the trooper before he died, so something is there.

I'm not saying that Finn shouldn't defend himself. I just think it would be interesting to see him conflicted about it is all.

There's a potentially interesting story there exploring all this stuff. Maybe it's explored in VIII, maybe it's in a comic or novel, but it's not the story of Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

I think it could've been a subplot for the Force Awakens. It's something that sounds interesting to me. I hope could come back to it in Ep 8.