Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
mai waifu's purity > scurvy infested meatbags
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Spring Anime 2013 |OT -7| My Giant CG Pony Can't Possibly Read This Much Baudelaire
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I get the first part but not the second.
and in the real world someone murdered some of my family members. Its difficult to know how I feel about something like this if you havent experienced it. It aint easy.
Theonik
Member
Yeah, I'd make an edited version, would be easy to do, but this was in the interest of science and examining if it has Guile theme potential. We can see on the result that you sort of need the fast cuts to truly make it work.
My #TeamZenmetsu nakama!
Good post. In short, it's a bad argument on the part of Bellows and bad writing in general. I would also like to make an additional point as well.
Escalation-
I agree that the Gargantians shouldn't depend on Ledo as they don't know when he's going to leave or if, admittedly. That said, their refusal to use him in a lethal manner at the end of episode 3 is ridiculous. At this stage, the pirates are openly in lethal combat and the display of arms on the part of the Gargantians did nothing. The pirate queen at the end also regused to surrender. At this point, I see nothing wrong with blatant abuse of beam spam. So far we haven't seen any sort of coordinated pirate fleet and so I doubt some remote pirates would care if another group is wiped out. The idea of escalation only works if there is a larger group in the first place and whether they care or not to intervene.
I thought it was a response to the discussion that was going on here. I have no idea if the same argument about piracy was going on in the OT.
Chet Rippo
Member
He's saying that his favorite girl's virginity is more important than the life of a pirate that suffers from scurvy.
Ah. Didn't know he was talking about pirates.
Legend of the Galactic Heroes - 63: Holy Grounds
~ Aren't they afraid to die? ~
~ Aren't they afraid to die? ~
And that's the end of the Earth Cult, unless the leader managed to escape somehow. What a massacre this episode was.
Julian making an amazing flying leap kick out of nowhere. The kid knows kung-fu!
I like Admiral Wahlen. Very rational, very coolheaded. Isn't even phazed by losing his arm.
Julian making an amazing flying leap kick out of nowhere. The kid knows kung-fu!
I like Admiral Wahlen. Very rational, very coolheaded. Isn't even phazed by losing his arm.
Theonik
Member
I think it bled over because of Haly and other people complaining about it on the OT. Jexhius posted it here as we were having this discussion before.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Ha harr, Chet be savvy 'bout sea-farin' lingo. Me pegged leg be feeling yar style.
Nakama
The conversation with Bellows is instructive in that it's not an attempt at setting down a firm, working philosophy; it's showing her (and the fleet's) views on Ledo's action and the thinking that went into them. Now, if the show were to expand on this and make it the overriding concept on which the rest of the series rides, sure, it's dumb. But there's a clear contrast presented between the two cultures at confluence and the ill logic of her argument is only poisonous were the show to present it as something canonic, or representative of just what they're going for.
Ledo comments early on about the dichotomy of killing animals and killing humans, with one being more permissible than the other; it sets the tone of the debate, that what Bellows says isn't necessarily right. And in the end, Ledo himself accedes not to the logic of her argument, but rather, the necessity of considering it. We've seen this again and again - and it ties back into your comment below:
He does so because he needs them. Maybe you read it another way - but for me, it never implied actual commiseration from Ledo, merely a recognition that this is what it would take to win them over. By this point he's aware of the gulf between his philosophies and the ramifications of his actions against the prevailing sentiment from those of the fleet. Ledo doesn't accept her arguments, nor that of the fleet, only recognizing the prudence of following their wishes. His actions from that point on isn't because he turned into a dirty hippie, it's for the sake of diplomacy.
It's also at this point that one must wonder, if Ledo doesn't accept her arguments at face value, why should the viewer?
Deterrence is a two man's game - both sides need to understand each other's capabilities. Neither side, in this case being Gargantia and the pirates, understands Ledo/Chambers' powers. Nor is there any guarantee that a display of power short of complete destruction would stop Lukkage's forces from moving in. Finally, that's clearly against what the Gargantians believe, and whether they're right, or wrong, is irrelevant. We're looking at the logic behind their actions, not the logic of their actions.
The other option (and this one would make more sense) would have been to have Chambers sink them in the sea one-by-one until they withdrew, and that's something which may have been considered at one point, but Murata's need to create a totally awesome and fun adventure-battle overrode it. This might bite them in the ass later; the Team-Rocket style blast off for Lukkage and her two sluts certainly will.
Presumably they would have done whatever the fuck they did for all the years Ledo wasn't there, and won't be once he's gone. Sometimes, the natives don't need saving.
As to just how they responded, as mentioned above, no, it's not right that heap all the blame on him. But remember that the Gargantians never asked for his help, and never knew he'd help. From their perspective, he acted independently, and triggered a conflict bigger than anything they could handle.
The argument, then, would shift to just why they don't use Ledo to kill everyone that comes. But I feel like it's been covered adequately before.
Notice that this happens after they commit themselves to having Ledo help them.
Chet Rippo
Member
Well, if you read their previous posts, you might have known.
To paraphrase my post in the OT, I think you're wrong about what both the pirates and the Gargantia fleet's intentions were during the second episode.
As Bellows says in her first argument, pirates have weapons so they can intimidate people. They don't survive by fighting everyone and looting the burned rubble of their fallen foes. They're not strong enough to do that over and over. They use force to show that people should fear a fight with them, and use that fear to negotiate. That (even with the ship rocket and the shirt-ripping) was what they were doing during Episode 2. When the fleet from Gargantia showed up, even with their 15 ships, they'd see that their enemies had hostages and their salvagers were stuck underwater. So instead of fighting, they'd negotiate with the pirates and give up some of their supplies to get the hostages back.
But if a previously-weak fleet completely fought off a pirate attack, that would make the pirates seem less intimidating. That has to be addressed for the pirates to be threatening everywhere else. If Gargantia was planning to engage in a full-on battle with the pirate raiders in Episode 2 they'd be hypocrites, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't their intention.
Even in this fight, the pirates expected the appearance of all their ships would be enough to convince Gargantia to negotiate. They were anticipating a radio message from Gargantia before night fell.
Whether or not Ledo's actions were justified in self-defense, they absolutely escalated the situation.
The conversation about how dumb/not dumb episode 3 of Gargantia was is like, all over the internets. Kinda crazy how it's spread. And it's always the same arguments for both sides.
I had no idea.
Fantastic post, Jexhius.
I think it's a bit of a different situation though. I agree with you that I don't support the death penalty and I'm not going to act like I can understand losing someone like that, but in a situation like this it's more about trying to keep civilian and allied casualties. And with the tech the Gargantia fleet has, I don't think they could subdue the pirates non lethally without taking casualties and losing hostages. And these are pirates, who, perhaps not in this show going by its ridiculous tone, will shoot hostages in an instant. So realistically, Ledo's actions were the best option when it came to getting back everyone safely.
If the Gargantians or Ledo had a way to take them all out non lethally then it would be a different situation. But that isn't stated so I'm not going to assume they do. I just don't understand what they would have done that was any better.
I think it's a bit of a different situation though. I agree with you that I don't support the death penalty and I'm not going to act like I can understand losing someone like that, but in a situation like this it's more about trying to keep civilian and allied casualties. And with the tech the Gargantia fleet has, I don't think they could subdue the pirates non lethally without taking casualties and losing hostages. And these are pirates, who, perhaps not in this show going by its ridiculous tone, will shoot hostages in an instant. So realistically, Ledo's actions were the best option when it came to getting back everyone safely.
If the Gargantians or Ledo had a way to take them all out non lethally then it would be a different situation. But that isn't stated so I'm not going to assume they do. I just don't understand what they would have done that was any better.
Its the first thing in this show that really stirs up controversy which makes it fun to discuss. Im not saying my position is right or wrong, just that is how I personally feel given my own experiences.
Theonik
Member
If anything that proves at least the execution/portrayal of the situation was iffy and the people complaining about it are not crazy.
TAKE THAT DUCKROLL!
The show was not very effective in conveying its message across.
I'm surprised with Ledo's advancement in technology he isn't able to adjust the output energy of his lasers.
I know, it's certainly not a wrong opinion. I'm just finding it hard to understand their methods. Perhaps it's because I'm applying real world tactics and situations to a fantasy world where pirate leaders look like stacked parrots and get blasted off again at the end of the episode.
Possibly, but it's designed to fight giant space plants so it wouldn't really be feasible to have non-lethal force as an option, especially against something as small as a human. It's like having non-lethal force on anti-tank weapons. But it's never stated so I have no idea.
I hate that type of thing in anime.
so i guess the Shingeki OP is the new Guile's theme now:
K-On
Strike Witches
Precure
Hellsing
Haruhi
Nichijou
Fate/Zero (spoilers here)
some of these work better than others but i find the whole thing pretty amazing
K-On
Strike Witches
Precure
Hellsing
Haruhi
Nichijou
Fate/Zero (spoilers here)
some of these work better than others but i find the whole thing pretty amazing
Might be a cultural thing given the war he was in. Destroy all enemies and whatnot.
Well this is what I was referring to:
I suppose I should point out it is being said by a perv.
I was watching so many of these earlier that when it came to watching the real thing my mind almost thought it to was another MAD ha ha ha.
I thought this one was well put together.
Theonik
Member
Well, beam weapons aren't designed to be non-lethal hell his weapon was designed to take-on Gunbusteresque space monsters. It's like asking "Why can't I set this 120mm Howitzer to fire nerf foams?"
What do you mean by adjusting the power output anyway? By what his weapon seems to do that probably involves giving the pirates 3rd degree burns.
Deserters, thieves and all those things probably still happen in their space hangars.
Chet Rippo
Member
Well it is pretty much a fundamental argument about the morals of killing people.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Nope, Pingu is still the best.
From what's been mentioned in the show, they do encounter humans who are outside the Federation's reach. Who knows, maybe robojacking did happen.
And that's Yuyushiki to add to the list of Sentai acquisitions.
Expected licenses still to come include Hyakka Ryouran Samurai Bride, Prince-sama S2, Oregairu/SNAFU, and maybe Gargantia.
They still haven't fixed the "home release this year" bit in their press release copytext to account for the newer series they're picking up.
Expected licenses still to come include Hyakka Ryouran Samurai Bride, Prince-sama S2, Oregairu/SNAFU, and maybe Gargantia.
They still haven't fixed the "home release this year" bit in their press release copytext to account for the newer series they're picking up.
He's the lone person that paid attention to everything in the first fifteen minutes of episode one.
Well it could go both ways, increasing output if the current default isn't enough to take down aliens.
A laser is an energy weapon, not bullet, lowering the energy output could at least knock the pirates down for the good guys on the ground to turn the situation around themselves for example.
Chet Rippo
Member
But that's more the shows fit the theme rather than the theme fitting the show.
Attack on Titan - 2
HOOOOOOOLY SHIT THIS SHOW
Seriously, so good. The soundtrack gets me fucking pumped up.
I'm really interested to learn about the Titans' background. Where did they come from? Why are they so unresponsive and unemotional? Where did the special Titans originate?
HOOOOOOOLY SHIT THIS SHOW
Seriously, so good. The soundtrack gets me fucking pumped up.
I'm really interested to learn about the Titans' background. Where did they come from? Why are they so unresponsive and unemotional? Where did the special Titans originate?
The animation director? I don't. Shouldn't be that hard to top it.
Theonik
Member
That's the thing though, energy weapons with the ability to vaporise people don't really have the power to knock people out. They burn them in one way or another, the assumption that there is something in between flashing them with bright lights and setting them on fire is probably not accurate.
Edit:
Specifically while he still thinks he is in space and is trying to figure out who these people are. iirc.
Chet Rippo
Member
Well this is what I was referring to:
I suppose I should point out it is being said by a perv.
So I take it you don't see them bounce, do you?
R_thanatos
Member
Who The heck put a big SAMPLE in yellow on such an artwork .. now i'm forced to buy the blu-ray to get it.
What goes in the mind of those publishers !
Won't they be using a different song though?
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