LiquidSolid
Member
Pretty sure my original source is dead, I just have a few lists of leaks, but here's confirmation from allan-bh just over a year ago:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193156203&postcount=4089
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Square Enix On The Popularity Gap Between Final Fantasy And Dragon Quest In The West
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
Pretty sure my original source is dead, I just have a few lists of leaks, but here's confirmation from allan-bh just over a year ago:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193156203&postcount=4089
Waaaaaay to many.
And I never did agree with those threads.
Once I can make threads again I'll make a thread about the DQ artbooks I got. Only issue I hace with them is that only one of them has an artwork of Marcello from 8 and the book it is in is rather small
~
You will do it today, in 12 hours and you will acquire a high end camera and take a picture of pages 5, 9, 15 and 22. I demand you do that. But remember, in 12 hours and you will also PM me that link just incase I still miss it, capisce?
Please
Nice, yes of course the games kept on selling, actually bought 2 new copies summer 2016, but it's typical of Nintendo to shorthand supply of the games. Might be why even 6 months later the numbers where low compared to the 3 months later of DQVIII whereas Sony in Europe wasn't so stingy.
Both DQ VIII and IX end up shipping a total of 1.0-1.1 million units outside Japan.
NES, Super Famicom, PSX, PS2, Wii, PS4. Seems to me they've been hitting the right places with it. I don't see any evidence that people were "pining for console JRPGs" when IX was released any more so than usual.
Lack of marketing and a failure (or refusal) to keep pace technologically for a good stretch of time, along with not localizing some of the best games in the series in the West (mostly due to technical limitations, not sales). That's what I feel has been DQ's problem.
While I understand the lack of appeal of DQVII for the wider audience that didn't already know DQ, DQVII had a more original structure/world building than FFIX.
DQVII pushed the adventure side of JRPG and the time travel concept while FFIX was for the most part a very safe game (except the return to super deformed and all fantasy setting of the early FF instead of insisting on more "westernized look" of FFVIII).
FFIX had far better graphics but the base gameplay wasn't anything innovative or original, DQVII was a more daring project in that regard.
Can't say I agree with most of that with regard to FFIX. In any case the point wasn't about what FFIX specifically did to innovate over previous Final Fantasy games, but how far the FF series had already come by that moment in time. Final Fantasy had developed a lot of things like advanced job systems, ATB, and so forth that were more innovative than anything DQ had tried to that point. And the graphical improvements were, yes, a huge factor that Enix lagged well behind in.
Have you played DQVII?
Because the Job System in the PS1 Final Fantasy games is basically absent, to the point where in FFVII and FFVIII the characters were interchangeable outside of narrative purpose or limit break, in contrast DQVII had a class system.
The NES still had life in it when the SNES launched. I appreciated getting those games. They sold well by NES/SNES RPG standards.
Dragon Warrior 4 released in America in 1992. Dragon Quest 5 released in Japan in late 1992. DW5 was never going to make it in America in 1992 because of programming problems interfering with localization, but it probably could've made it in 1993, and had no schedule conflicts with the late-releasing NES games (if it hadn't been judged too expensive to bother with due to the programming problems).
Dragon Warrior 6 could've been released on the SNES in America, but Enix of Japan thought it might feel weird, seeing as how they were planning a betrayalton in Japan.
The SNES was America's first "RPG console" and it's a shame that Dragon Quest never made an appearance. Final Fantasy 7 was a gamechanger, but SNES classics still had a certain level of credibility in the PSX era. When Dragon Warrior 7 came out one generation removed from it's predecessors, people said "Dragon Who? Oh, is that the game with bad graphics I saw on my cousin's hand-me-down console?" And Dragon Warrior 7 still sold above-average for an American PSX RPG.
Considering Blizzard just launched a cartoony as hell shooter to 20 million sold, I really doubt the aesthetic holds people back in the west.
I personally just don't find the combat enjoyable in the main series. Kind of run of the mill turn-based combat compared to other series.
I personally just don't find the combat enjoyable in the main series. Kind of run of the mill turn-based combat compared to other series.
synce
Member
I would say back in the day DQ never took off because the games lacked interesting stories and characters. What's sad that today even if DQ did everything right it still wouldn't be popular because the graphics are colorful and cartoony instead of gritty and realistic. It's a real shame.
Magicpaint
Member
Didn't Ni No Kuni find some success looking colourful and cartoony though? I think the series' hurdles are a bit more complex than that, especially seeing games like VIII and IX actually doing fairly well in the West.
And to me, DQ has always had interesting stories and characters. It's just that its approach is a lot more subtle and a lot less flashy in general than FF.
it's like some people are deliberately & intentionally missing the point so that they continue to believe what they want.
the question isn't whether a cartoony rpg appeals in the west, the question is if you placed a cartoony rpg next to a more 'tech powerhouse' rpg, westerners will, by the majority, choose the more visually 'realistic' looking title & base their purchase on the graphical presentation of the game.
the point that was being made was that in japan, regardless of what age you are, very little people get AS worked up about that aesthetics like their 'american/western culture' counterparts.
from the sounds of it, miyake seems to be saying that japanese consumers couldn't give a shit while westerners get worked up over it.
people citing shit like Simpsons and DBZ and Pokemon, and how they are widely accepted don't seem to want to 'get' the context of the supposition.
the question isn't whether a cartoony rpg appeals in the west, the question is if you placed a cartoony rpg next to a more 'tech powerhouse' rpg, westerners will, by the majority, choose the more visually 'realistic' looking title & base their purchase on the graphical presentation of the game.
the point that was being made was that in japan, regardless of what age you are, very little people get AS worked up about that aesthetics like their 'american/western culture' counterparts.
from the sounds of it, miyake seems to be saying that japanese consumers couldn't give a shit while westerners get worked up over it.
people citing shit like Simpsons and DBZ and Pokemon, and how they are widely accepted don't seem to want to 'get' the context of the supposition.
Red Liquorice
Member
I don't think it's the cartoon look of DQ, I mean isn't Pokemon really popular? DQ doesn't have a kids cartoon show to promote it obviously.
It's not really a level playing field when comparing to FF, like he says in the interview they haven't been given the same attention in localisation.
It's not really a level playing field when comparing to FF, like he says in the interview they haven't been given the same attention in localisation.
Final Fantasy is more or less coasting from a huge popularity surge during the PSX era(boosted by cutting-edge graphics that aren't cartoony). Dragon Quest never got that. I challenge anyone to make a DQ7 PSX commercial that can even compare to the FF7-9 ads that sent people to the stores back in the late 1990's. DQ has been a "better" franchise for a while now, but you don't sell the steak, you sell the kasizzle.
As long as it's not enough for them, we're going to keep seeing this behavior repeat.
Monster Hunter is a really great example of what happens when a company realizes that it needs to work on growing the audience in an organic manner, rather than expecting that it's going to be just as big as it is in Japan and pouting when it does not. Once Capcom shifted their expectations to something more realistic, the releases have been much more consistent and they've been celebrating each and every bit of growth that they've been getting in the west.
Stormblessed
Member
I think the localizations from VIII on have proven to be an acquired taste as well. Anyone with exposure to what the accents sound like coming from real people will probably find the scripts and voice acting a bit much.
Marmaladefire
Member
I grew up on DBZ. Love that shit.
DQ is hideous to me. DQ always seemed so boring. Even playing on some cousin's console or whatever, I just couldn't get into it. When I like to be bored I play farm simulation games. And I'm far from someone who is only interested in big budget games, action games, or cutting edge graphics
DQ is hideous to me. DQ always seemed so boring. Even playing on some cousin's console or whatever, I just couldn't get into it. When I like to be bored I play farm simulation games. And I'm far from someone who is only interested in big budget games, action games, or cutting edge graphics
ethomaz
Banned
They could, in about the same way that CoD could find a fix for its downturn in appealing to the ten-million-strong pop star simulator market, letting you choose between shooting your way through that crowd of Russians or having a dance-off with their leader.
The thing is, Pokemon is being brought up because it sits on the shelf next to FF in the west and manages to outsell it. You're right to point out that, to be blunt, console RPG fans in the west will take "edgelord" over "manchild", but they're not the only software buyers, just the only ones GAF (and SE for that matter) is familiar with.
That said, I don't think it's possible for DQ to become a thing in the west on the level of either unless it's the only competent RPG on a platform during a 2007 Wii-level fad, just because selling RPGs is so much built on the promise that you can be trusted with someone's 60+ hours, and that's extremely hard to show without proving it.
DrunkShogun
Member
Find the gameplay a lot more stale in dq then i ever did in ff games. Was playing through the older dq titles to be familiar for th upcoming game and dq v had high random encounters. Getting through but wasn't hooked the way I was with ff4 and the sequels after.
Deft Beck
Member
Those commercials were very misleading, though; even though FF7 sold gangbusters in the end, many people returned it because they were expecting an action game over an RPG.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Bit odd that he namedrops Builders and Heroes as games which have softened the ground for a sustainable launch of XI while completely ignoring how VII underperformed in North America, selling 35k in its launch month.
Greninja96
Banned
VII sold 35k in its launch month? wow this is disastrous.
If you look at it you will see that Nintendo did not put any effort in promoting the game.
Citation needed.
ethomaz
Banned
Source?
I'm 34 and at FFVII launch I did not hear anybody saying that or doing that.
Maybe it was a really small part of the buyers like every game has returners lol
Heroes did worse (31k). We never got Builders numbers but I doubt it's much better, it wasn't in the UK. DQ has been doing really terrible this gen so far in the west, even worse than the remakes and spinoffs did on DS generally. I won't be surprised at all if XI undersells IX and VIII.
Sold well for DQ games in america. And those games still were not even close to having mainstream success. Miyake wouldnt be making these comments if those games were able to jump that hurdle and sell the mutiple millions in america like FF had once been capable of.
Go look at the actual western sales of those games and realize that japan alone is responsible for most of the millions those games have sold.
Given FFXV's significant drop in Japan and slight drop in the UK, we might be looking at a scenario where DQXI sells more worldwide anyway now even if it does only a million in the west.
Of course DQXI could also decline too.
Marmaladefire
Member
FXV is it's own weird situation. It could be a hit to the brand that can't be regained, it could be a combination of handheld being king in Japan + the time between mainline releases and Lightning overload (I know, I know. They like her there more than we do.), it could be that open world full ARPG FF is jarring.
In the West, FF absolutely has to earn some of its pedigree back. Which may or may not be a semi significant factor in the VII remake. DQXI will sell better on 3DS, I think.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Chrono Trigger is deeply DEEPLY entrenched in nostalgia in the West, which is what Minake acknowledges that they missed out on with Dragon Quest.
Chrono Trigger only shipped 290k on SNES and 300k on DS in the west. Chrono Cross did better but still only moved 650k in the west, well below what DQVIII and DQIX shipped.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I agree. This is also true for the DBZ comparisons people are throwing around in here. Just because they have the same artist/designer doesn't really mean they have the same feel or look.
I also think a big part of it is that so many core aspects of Dragon Quest's design are seen as being design flaws in today's market. Random encounters, turn based combat and silent protagonists aren't really what people are looking for in the west, while being core to the series appeal in japan.
It's just another example of ever expanding gulf between Japanese and Western taste in media. Oh well at least it sounds like I'm getting XI out of it.
Vyse The Legend
Member
You're basically saying they shouldn't bother releasing them in the West anymore. That's, uh, something.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Every other one-and-done post in this thread needs this jesus fuck.
3DS version surely rests on Nintendo. If Square Enix goes it alone it'll just be the PS4/Switch releases.
I'd imagine those games had something resembling a marketing campaign to go along with their release. Even at 7 years old I remember my parents going crazy trying to find it. They brought me home Double Dragon instead at first because they couldn't find it anywhere and being the whiny brat I was, I had to throw a hissy fit to get the Dragon Quest game I wanted.
DQV was seen as too archaic looking (and it would've been going up against games like Breath of Fire and Secret of Mana in 1993) and DQVI fell victim to the mid 90s mini-collapse for western divisions of Japanese publishers. We missed out on tons of great SNES (and maybe even some NES) releases we probably would've had if Square, Enix, Taito, Hudson, Technos, JVC, Sammy, BPS, Takara and others hadn't closed their doors in America around 94-96.
Torneko might've worked timing wise, and evidently a European localization came close to release, but it was a dungeon crawler and it's sequel did nothing for the franchise on PS1. Oddly the GBC ports of DQ1-3 and the Monsters games did well in America though, in contrast to how remakes and spinoffs have done since on DS and 3DS. Perhaps also skipping GBA was a mistake?
Zoe
Member
The only way you knew it was a cartoon was the tiny ass profile portraits.
I love how according to SE, Final Fantasy nostalgia starts with FFVII in the West..
COMPLETELY discounting the popularity of Final Fantasy I, IV (II in the West), and VI (III in the West)...
I lived back in the 80's and 90's, and I played the crap out of Dragon Warrior (Quest) and Final Fantasy... And as a 10 year old kid, Final Fantasy was soooooooooo much better than Dragon Quest.
Dragon Quest was obtuse and complicated, requiring a menu to do basic functions like going to down stairs.
Final Fantasy was much more accessible from the beginning and this gave it momentum over here from the beginning...
Final Fantasy VI is still the best Final Fantasy in my opinion, and will always be the one I have the most nostalgia for.
COMPLETELY discounting the popularity of Final Fantasy I, IV (II in the West), and VI (III in the West)...
I lived back in the 80's and 90's, and I played the crap out of Dragon Warrior (Quest) and Final Fantasy... And as a 10 year old kid, Final Fantasy was soooooooooo much better than Dragon Quest.
Dragon Quest was obtuse and complicated, requiring a menu to do basic functions like going to down stairs.
Final Fantasy was much more accessible from the beginning and this gave it momentum over here from the beginning...
Final Fantasy VI is still the best Final Fantasy in my opinion, and will always be the one I have the most nostalgia for.
Lots of conflating 'the west' with 'NA' in this thread. There is little 'deeply entrenched' nostalgia for Chrono Trigger or FFIII/VI in Europe, as we didn't even see them until years later, on DS/GBA as far as I know. Playing them on the SNES, if you even knew what they were, required adapters and expensive imports from mail order companies or indie shops, which wasn't exactly wildly popular. Similar situation with Dragon Quest, which didn't see a release here until VIII.
Games are a global market with much closer release schedules across NA and the PAL-Lands today, which is at least something to be thankful for from my point of view as someone who spent their teenage years glumly flicking through magazines and looking at all the cool games that got released over in the US.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Worldshaker
Member
If only we got Dragon Quest 5, and 6 on the SNES. I honestly think the series would've taken off more here.
I'm just happy were getting them still.
I'm just happy were getting them still.
Yeah I think DQXI could easily do the same type of VIII, IX numbers. I actually think SE is chasing a ghost in thinking FF or any other traditional jrpg (outside of pokemon for various reasons) is going to sell 3+ million in the US.
I think the answer to having DQ gain mainstream success is to drastically change the game but I dont think they're in a position to gamble with DQ after faltering with FF and other efforts over the past decade.
They're still not treating US gamers well. They released the remakes of DQ7 and DQ8 without the orchestrated soundtracks when they were there for Japan. A lot of us would have bought DQ7 and DQ8 if not for that. I don't want to experience a inferior version of DQ8 than I did with PS2.
It would have just died again when DQ7 missed out on the PS1. PS1 was done by the time DQ7 came out. DQ7 was competing with FFX, MGS2, Devil May Cry, and GTA3.
It would have just died again when DQ7 missed out on the PS1. PS1 was done by the time DQ7 came out. DQ7 was competing with FFX, MGS2, Devil May Cry, and GTA3.
They are not wrong if you base it off sales. It was merely a niche series prior to FFVII. They went from a series that sold less than a million units in the West to selling 5+ million units.
That said, I agree that FF was always more accessible than DQ. I would argue that even if DQ7 came out earlier it would have made little difference considering its design/gameplay vs other JRPGs at that time.