Support NeoGAF

[Glitter and Gold]

I think the answer to having DQ gain mainstream success is to drastically change the game but I dont think they're in a position to gamble with DQ after faltering with FF and other efforts over the past decade.

and they can't do that. As that would alienate its Japanese audience.

I remember reading that they revealed DQIX as an action based multiplayer RPG, but that idea was abandoned after a huge negative reaction to the idea from the Japanese audience

and honestly they were right. I think what makes Dragon Quest so compelling atm is that it's maintained its identity in a market that's mostly moving away from those types of games. If it changed like everything else to sell itself, there'd be no point.

 

[Ridley327]

They're still not treating US gamers well. They released the remakes of DQ7 and DQ8 without the orchestrated soundtracks when they were there for Japan. A lot of us would have bought DQ7 and DQ8 if not for that. I don't want to experience a inferior version of DQ8 than I did with PS2.

I think the bigger problem, and one that's much bigger than having to deal with Sugiyama being a dick about how people get to experience his scores, is that Squenix has been showing only a passing interest in growing the series abroad. This is especially apparent with how long it took for DQ7 to be localized, and only as a result of Nintendo splitting the cost with them. 3.5 years is an eternity for modern game releases.

If Squenix wants people to take the series seriously, they should start doing that themselves.

 

[Maintenance]

I'd rather see the series dead (or Japan only) than westernized.

 

[DNAbro]

DQ aesthetics aren't that appealing to a mass market is my guess. Gameplay (from the ones I've played) and music aren't anything to write home about either. Both borderline on boring and dull. In my opinion it's just an okay series that somehow became insanely popular in Japan.

Also I fucking hate the accents. It's annoying as hell.

 

[MacTag]

They are not wrong if you base it off sales. It was merely a niche series prior to FFVII. They went from a series that sold less than a million units in the West to selling 5+ million units.

That said, I agree that FF was always more accessible than DQ. I would argue that even if DQ7 came out earlier it would have made little difference considering its design/gameplay vs other JRPGs at that time.

Niche is relative but FFVI did 860k and FFI did 780k in the west. That's better than nearly all non-FF or KH games did for Square on PS1 or PS2 for example, the only one higher is Parasite Eve at 890k.

The only FF to do 5m+ in the west was VII as well. VIII did around 4.5m, the rest range from about 3-4m barring the MMMOs.

 

[Xion_Stellar]

Well he's right about one thing with the asthetic being unappealing to me and the same goes with Blue Dragon.DQ's cartoon/anime graphics don't do it for me compared to the many asthetic types/choices the Final Fantasy franchise offers in contrast and yeah despite never touching the series before to make this sort of judgement the series does give a kid friendly vibe.

 

[PSFan]

Well he's right about one thing with the asthetic being unappealing to me and the same goes with Blue Dragon.DQ's cartoon/anime graphics don't do it for me compared to the many asthetic types/choices the Final Fantasy franchise offers in contrast and yeah despite never touching the series before to make this sort of judgement the series does give a kid friendly vibe.

And I'm just the opposite. Since FF7, FF aesthetics have appealed to me less and less. While DQ has always appealed to me.

 

[Prince of Space]

I'm honestly surprised SE are still scratching their heads about this -- the Final Fantasy series features gameplay and aesthetic designs that drastically change from one game to the next, meaning it has the potential to appeal to just about anyone's tastes; why else are FF fans so passionate about a particular entry over another?

Meanwhile, Dragon Quest has, for the most part, looked and played mostly the same over its history, which will really only ever appeal to a niche fanbase.

Edit: Also, reading the thread, apparently DQ skipped the SNES in the west? Yeah, that'll cause a HUGE hit to nostalgia when your franchise misses the entire generation that sowed the seeds for the JRPG's rise in popularity in western markets.

 

[Megalosaro]

They're still not treating US gamers well. They released the remakes of DQ7 and DQ8 without the orchestrated soundtracks when they were there for Japan. A lot of us would have bought DQ7 and DQ8 if not for that. I don't want to experience a inferior version of DQ8 than I did with PS2.
.

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

 

[Xion_Stellar]

And I'm just the opposite. Since FF7, FF aesthetics have appealed to me less and less. While DQ has always appealed to me.

I just can't seem to pin point why DQ's asthetic doesn't appeal to me because I'm more than capable of playing JRPGs that have gone full Anime for their asthetic.

Maybe it's the partial cell shading? I'm not sure..

 

[AgeEighty]

Have you played DQVII?
Because the Job System in the PS1 Final Fantasy games is basically absent, to the point where in FFVII and FFVIII the characters were interchangeable outside of narrative purpose or limit break, in contrast DQVII had a class system.

Yes, I have played it, twice. It definitely does some innovative things for Dragon Quest, but in absolute terms the series has been slow to change, and that includes DQVII. The time travel aspect is neat and the class system was long overdue, but these are minor compared to what FF had done by that point, irrespective of the fact that FF didn't include every one of its innovations in every game and of the fact that it had taken a step backward in terms of class interchangeability.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Do we define the west as Europe...well FFVII was the first one for us*. It was a huge gateway for JRPGs but also seemed like this massive epic full of FMVs the likes of which had not been seen before on consoles.

*-Unless you're seriously going to count FF Mystic Quest without the FF Branding (maybe it was a big thing, the GB Mana game also got Mystic Quest branding here in Europe despite Secret of Mana also being released).

Although for poor Dragon Quest it was much bleaker. With the exception of Dragon Quest Monsters (which was Eidos), nothing until Dragon Quest VIII on the PS2.

Did they have some sort of deal with Nintendo where they had to bring all the NES games to the US? I wonder how different things would have been if they gave up on NES releases early and focused on SNES localizations early.

Missing the entire SNES generation doomed them for me in terms of "nostalgia factor".

This was probably answered in the four pages of the thread I did not read but English DQVI nearly happened: http://gaming.moe/?p=331

But that highlights the why the DQ games were hard to release. Their Japanese timing wasn't particularly great and in the case of VI and VII it was too late for western audiences.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Meanwhile, Dragon Quest has, for the most part, looked and played mostly the same over its history, which will really only ever appeal to a niche fanbase.

but in the interview the producer says it has an audience that ranges from primary schoolers to people in their 50s though...

I think some of the strongest IP's in the world don't change much. Like Pokemon or Mario or Zelda to some extent.

Dragon Quest just isn't among them in the west like it is in Japan, and I guess Square Enix is reflecting on why that is and if it's possible to correct it at this point.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I actually liked what SE was doing in Europe at one point, which was not numbering the installments, since they were released out of order (first VIII and then the IV-V-VI DS remakes). The games were simply differentiated by the subtitles. I thought it was kinda cool since for example IV DS really doesn't feel that much older than VIII or anything. This whole pattern stopped when Nintendo released DQIX with a number, however.

 

[decoyplatypus]

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

I'm not much of a gambler, but this seems right to me: the number of people who skip DQ7 and DQ8 for 3DS over orchestration can't be more than a rounding error on SE's sales sheet.

 

[Oregano]

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

That's a really significant chunk of who buys the game though.

Spoiler

;_;

 

[Lothar]

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

I really hope that's the case because I want the series to sell well. But we had 11 pages of people complaining about the MIDI announcement here. It's not good to upset and disappointment fans when you have such a small number of them.

 

[Prince of Space]

but in the interview the producer says it has an audience that ranges from primary schoolers to people in their 50s though...

In Japan.

 

[kswiston]

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

What percentage of those are posting on NeoGAF?

 

[Ray Down]

but in the interview the producer says it has an audience that ranges from primary schoolers to people in their 50s though...

Japan for you.

 

[Megalosaro]

I really hope that's the case because I want the series to sell well. But we had 11 pages of people complaining about the MIDI announcement here. It's not good to upset and disappointment fans when you have such a small number of them.

11 pages of bitching from people who either bought the game or were never going to buy the game in the first place.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

What percentage of those are posting on NeoGAF?

100%

 

[Kill3r7]

Niche is relative but FFVI did 860k and FFI did 780k in the west. That's better than nearly all non-FF or KH games did for Square on PS1 or PS2 for example, the only one higher is Parasite Eve at 890k.

The only FF to do 5m+ in the west was VII as well. VIII did around 4.5m, the rest range from about 3-4m barring the MMMOs.

Agreed with your assessment but there is a clear demarcation line in popularity of the FF franchise in the West. You have all the games prior to FFVII and everything after. In other words FF did not become a mass market success until 7. That is tremendous growth when you consider the change in sales between VI and VII.

 

[jackal27]

Best part is that it essentially confirms DQ XI for the West.

Yup! This was what I got out of it.

 

[MacTag]

Agreed with your assessment but there is a clear demarcation line in popularity of the FF franchise in the West. You have all the games prior to FFVII and everything after. In other words FF did not become a mass market success until 7. That is tremendous growth when you consider the change in sales between VI and VII.

Sure, it's when FF really hit the bigtime. Even in Japan, it was the only time the series truly rivaled DQ in sales.

 

[Square2015]

Niche is relative but FFVI did 860k and FFI did 780k in the west. That's better than nearly all non-FF or KH games did for Square on PS1 or PS2 for example, the only one higher is Parasite Eve at 890k.

The only FF to do 5m+ in the west was VII as well. VIII did around 4.5m, the rest range from about 3-4m barring the MMMOs.

That VI number includes Anthology.

The original sales in NA (off the top of my head) were:
FF1 780k
FF4 340k
FF6 440k
FF7 3m

 

[Cobra84]

I'd put it on terrible timing. 2 clunky NES games that came out after the SNES and FF4. Skipping the SNES games left nearly a decade gap between releases. 7 was partially 2D PS1 game lost in the PS2/Xbox/GC releases. 8 was a late PS2 game just before the Xbox 360 release.

I went from DQ4 NES in 1992 to DQ4 DS in 2007 without caring or knowing about anything in between.

 

[Freddo]

I dunno. I'm not saying that Final Fantasy 7 wasn't huge on the Playstation, but I think it has the groundwork paved for it with Final Fantasy II and III (US naming) on the SNES.

Part of the reason Final Fantasy 7 was a big deal in the first place because people knew and loved the Final Fantasy brand

FF7 was the first FF to be released in Europe and it was a huge hit despite the lack of FF SNES games.

 

[AgeEighty]

I am willing to bet my account the number of pepole who skipped dq7 3ds because they removed the orchestral soundtrack is under 50. Probably under 20

Hello.

 

[MacTag]

That VI number includes Anthology.

The original sales in NA (off the top of my head) were:
FF1 780k
FF4 330k
FF6 440k
FF7 3m

Does it? The same doc lists FFV as 0 though? Also lists FFIV as 340k?

Do you happen to have classic DW sales from NES, PS1 & GBC btw?

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Without much knowledge of either, I'd say the "controversial" platform designation for VII being the buzz at the start of a very popular console generation and having edgy aesthetics helped.

Where as DQ still looks the same to me from when I used to see it in magazine ads from around the same time.

 

[Square2015]

Does it? The same doc lists FFV as 0 though? Also lists FFIV as 340k?

Do you happen to have classic DW sales from NES, PS1 & GBC btw?

*340k sorry. Yes I have FF6 NPD numbers for every month and it sold 397k in U.S. I have NPD for those others give me a minute...

 

[kswiston]

I'd put it on terrible timing. 2 clunky NES games that came out after the SNES and FF4. Skipping the SNES games left nearly a decade gap between releases. 7 was partially 2D PS1 game lost in the PS2/Xbox/GC releases. 8 was a late PS2 game just before the Xbox 360 release.

I went from DQ4 NES in 1992 to DQ4 DS in 2007 without caring or knowing about anything in between.

DQ8 was one of the bigger PS2 jrpgs in the west. It wasn't Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts, but nothing else was either.

 

[AgeEighty]

We're at a weird point when we're seriously taking it as normal that Japanese pop star zipperleather dudes are the default key to appealing to gamers while classic cartoon designs aren't.

It's like RPG gamers are perpetually stuck in the late 90s. DQ has a pretty timeless look, and much of the gaming market (as well as other media) have no problem adapting classic animation styles to 3D art and being huge hits.

Console gamers are waaaay too edgy.

So which is your beef actually with, RPG gamers or console gamers?

 

[kswiston]

Does it? The same doc lists FFV as 0 though? Also lists FFIV as 340k?

Do you happen to have classic DW sales from NES, PS1 & GBC btw?

He is right. Final Fantasy VI was nowhere near 1M (or even 500k) in the US, and it never released on the SNES in Europe.

The 860k number you are quoting was from a press release in 2003. Anthology made up about half of the number.

EDIT:

The press release in question: http://www.jp.square-enix.com/ir/e/explanatory/download/0404-200402090000-01.pdf#page=27

You can tell from the platform lists and some of the Japanese numbers that they are lumping all versions together.

 

[Cobra84]

DQ8 was one of the bigger PS2 jrpgs in the west. It wasn't Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts, but nothing else was either.

It would have done sold better than 430,000 in NA with an earlier release and proper, timely releases of 3-7.

 

[Ridley327]

DQ8 was one of the bigger PS2 jrpgs in the west. It wasn't Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts, but nothing else was either.

I think a lot of JRPG fans aren't aware of what "normal" looks like for sales in the genre in the west. FF, KH and Pokémon are not "normal" at all.

 

[mejin]

3DS version surely rests on Nintendo. If Square Enix goes it alone it'll just be the PS4/Switch releases.

Oh, you have a point. But if we think like this wouldn't SE still depends on Nintendo to bring switch version?
I hope we have news soon.

 

[MacTag]

He is right. Final Fantasy VI was nowhere near 1M (or even 500k) in the US, and it never released on the SNES in Europe.

The 860k number you are quoting was from a press release in 2003. Anthology made up about half of the number.

EDIT:

The press release in question: http://www.jp.square-enix.com/ir/e/explanatory/download/0404-200402090000-01.pdf#page=27

You can tell from the platform lists and some of the Japanese numbers that they are lumping all versions together.

Right, my confusion was that if they were lumping in Anthology for the west why would they do it for FFVI and not FFV? Also no Chronicles sales on FFIV and Chrono Trigger?

On the other hand they don't list any western DQ sales at all and I'm pretty sure EU numbers are missing for all the NOE published games (like Secret of Mana). It's sort of a mess.

Oh, you have a point. But if we think like this wouldn't SE still depends on Nintendo to bring switch version?
I hope we have news soon.

I don't they Switch will matter as it'll be the same as the PS4 version. 3DS is more the odd one out, plus SE seems intenet on ignoring the system in the west.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

We're at a weird point when we're seriously taking it as normal that Japanese pop star zipperleather dudes are the default key to appealing to gamers while classic cartoon designs aren't.

It's like RPG gamers are perpetually stuck in the late 90s. DQ has a pretty timeless look, and much of the gaming market (as well as other media) have no problem adapting classic animation styles to 3D art and being huge hits.

Console gamers are waaaay too edgy.

I mean sure, ignore all of the successful console RPGs that don't fit that description in the slightest and make a blanket statement about 'console gamers', that'll certainly add to this discussion. If anything the black leather boy band aesthetic of FFXV hurt it in the west rather than helped. FF isn't more popular solely because of aesthetics, it's mainly release timing, brand recognition, and FF pushing graphical fidelity for generations while DQ was conservative in that area (or skipping the west entirely). When you skip an entire console generation, then release your games at the worst possible times...it shouldn't shock you when they don't perform.

DQVIII and IX were successful overseas. They were also graphically impressive for the platform they were on, had high quality localizations, had marketing support, and came to the western market at good times. The series would be more successful if this treatment was the norm for titles in the series in the west, rather than the exception.

 

[Square2015]

edit: colors off, sorry

Graph data up-to-date to about 2007, scattered data after; PSX era may have been revived upward by NPD (ZhugeEZ's NPD data seemed to indicate such).
NA Ship:

Dragon Warrior	        500,000 
Dragon Warrior II	150,000
Dragon Warrior III	95,000
Dragon Warrior IV	80,000

Final Fantasy	         770,000 
Final Fantasy II	 330,000 
FF Mystic Quest	         250,000

NPD thenceforth:

Final Fantasy III	 397,491

Final Fantasy VII	2,753,895

The first two are based on $ sales:

Dragon Warrior Monsters	 240,000 
Dragon Warrior I&II	 175,000 
Dragon Warrior III	 180,000 
DWM2: Cobi / Tara	 200,000

Dragon Warrior VII	 190,606

ZhugeEX has DQ7 at 215k

From ZhugeEX:

Dragon Quest VIII	590,000
Dragon Quest IX	       >500,000

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Japan for you.

Yeah but my point is why can't something like that exist outside of Japan?

It already does for Pokemon, which has deviated from its core identity about as much as Dragon Quest has over the years. Same with Mario.

I'm challenging the idea that something like DQ can only be niche because of its conservative design.

 

[kswiston]

It would have done sold better than 430,000 in NA with an earlier release and proper, timely releases of 3-7.

They didn't have much of a choice with DQ3-4. Enix brought the first game to North America over 3 years after the Japanese release. We got 4 of them in 3 years. DW3 and 4 sold terribly, so they didn't bother with 5-6.

A year or so wasn't that atypical of a localization delay when DQ7 and 8 released in North America. It was on the longer side of things, but a quick localization turnaround was 6 months back then.

The only case I can see you making is Enix skipping over the localization of the PS1 version of DQ7 entirely. The best case scenario was always going to be early 2001, which wouldn't have been much better.

DQ8's release date was fine. I'm not sure why you brought up the 360 earlier, as it was a non-factor for anyone going to pick up a JRPG. PS2 JRPGs saw healthy sales for at least 2 years post DQ8. 2006 was one of the biggest years for the genre that generation.

EDIT: One of the sentences was in the wrong paragraph!

 

[decoyplatypus]

What kind of numbers did Ni no Kuni do? Do we have any kind of a baseline for a big-budget,* non-FF jRPG with a significant advertising push and traditional-ish mechanics?

*Comparatively speaking. I don't know what DQXI's actual budget situation is, but for modern jRPG it's got to be on the high end.

 

[kswiston]

What kind of numbers did Ni no Kuni do? Do we have any kind of a baseline for a big-budget,* non-FF jRPG with a significant advertising push and traditional-ish mechanics?

*Comparatively speaking. I don't know what DQXI's actual budget situation is, but for modern jRPG it's got to be on the high end.

Bandai-Namco announced 1.1M shipped by March 2014. Japanese sales were under 200k.

Graph data up-to-date to about 2007, scattered data after; PSX era may have been revived upward by NPD (ZhugeEZ's NPD data seemed to indicate such).

Thanks for this!

I think a lot of JRPG fans aren't aware of what "normal" looks like for sales in the genre in the west. FF, KH and Pokémon are not "normal" at all.

Square2015's charts show as much. DQ8 was S-E's second biggest non-FF/KH title after Star Ocean 3. The only other PS2 game I know was in the same range off the top of my head was Xenosaga Ep1. There may be a couple others, but it is a small list.

 

[truly101]

We're at a weird point when we're seriously taking it as normal that Japanese pop star zipperleather dudes are the default key to appealing to gamers while classic cartoon designs aren't.

It's like RPG gamers are perpetually stuck in the late 90s. DQ has a pretty timeless look, and much of the gaming market (as well as other media) have no problem adapting classic animation styles to 3D art and being huge hits.

Console gamers are waaaay too edgy.

JRPG fans like other games that aren't aesthetically close to FF, and are more traditional titles or are completely their own thing.

We seem to be forgetting that promotion, marketing and advertising have A LOT to with a game's success and SE has done incredibly little to promote DQ at all here. The idea seems to be, well those who are interested already know, and anything beyond that is a waste of time. Atlus did a good job of finding and cultivating an audience for SMT and Persona games here in the west, and getting that fanbase excited for any new release. Its not FF in terms of sales but they still seem to be pretty damn successful. DQ wont equal FF in terms of casual appeal and sales but there's no reason it cant do something similar to Persona here in the west....other than Enix doesn't think its worth their time.

 

[decoyplatypus]

Bandai-Namco announced 1.1M shipped by March 2014. Japanese sales were under 200k.

Thanks. I wonder what number SE needs to hit to justify localization.

In a way SE's strategic situation with mainline DQ games is simpler than it would be with other franchises. Changing the design of the game to appeal to western tastes is not an option, so they mainly have to ask themselves what they can realistically accomplish with advertising.

 

[Tyaren]

I can tell Square Enix the reason why I haven't really bothered playing a Dragon Quest game, even though I am well aware of it's qualities.
It's Toriyama's art style. I do like other cartoon/anime-inspired art styles, that's not the problem. Toriyama's particular style does imo not go well with a whimsical fantasy game though. It's too simple, plain and unappealing. It imo suits a shounen manga much better.

 

[Cobra84]

They didn't have much of a choice with DQ3-4. Enix brought the first game to North America over 3 years after the Japanese release. We got 4 of them in 3 years. DW3 and 4 sold terribly, so they didn't bother with 5-6.

A year or so wasn't that atypical of a localization delay when DQ7 and 8 released in North America. It was on the longer side of things, but a quick localization turnaround was 6 months back then.

The only case I can see you making is Enix skipping over the localization of the PS1 version of DQ7 entirely. The best case scenario was always going to be early 2001, which wouldn't have been much better.

DQ8's release date was fine. I'm not sure why you brought up the 360 earlier, as it was a non-factor for anyone going to pick up a JRPG. PS2 JRPGs saw healthy sales for at least 2 years post DQ8. 2006 was one of the biggest years for the genre that generation.

EDIT: One of the sentences was in the wrong paragraph!

They had a choice. They just dug themselves in an early hole and planned ahead poorly for the SNES (like devs who thought that they would be making cross gen games for years after the PS4 release). DQ4 was the perfect time to move to the SNES.

Localization time is irrelevant. The late Japanese release means DQ7 completely misses the PS1 RPG era boost in the US.

The 360 wasn't a huge factor. I guess DQ8 a success considering the giant missed opportunities is was built on.

Enix has always mismanaged the series ouside of Japan.

 

[GreenMonkey]

DQ8 was one of the bigger PS2 jrpgs in the west. It wasn't Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts, but nothing else was either.

Yeah. IMO DQ8 was a step in the right direction for the series. Big, wide open explorable world, some fun characters, serious story that doesn't take itself too seriously. But keeping the classic battle system with some interesting choices for each character.

The big reason DQ is so big in Japan is the early release of DQ1 on the NES and continued steady releases.

I personally think DQ5 on SNES would have made a big difference. It was a very strong game and a lot of folks were playing SNES RPGs.


I personally don't care if DQ is popular in the West, just popular enough they port them over here.

These days turn based RPGs aren't big sellers here outside of Pokemon. Everyone wants some flashy/twitchy action RPG that looks cool now (see: FF games post FFX). I personally find action RPGs are a bad middle ground between a good action game and a good JRPG (exempting Souls games as an outlier), but most folks don't agree.

I mean, they won't even make a mainline FF even remotely turn based any more...even ATB is deemed too ancient for the FF7 remake.