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STAR CITIZEN, Chris Roberts' (Wing Commander) New Game [$25 million funded]

Munin

Member
Well, the idea is that everything will be added to the game eventually and that more money during the crowd funding phase will decrease the time required to build the game, so bonuses like that make sense.

I still think this plan is insane and a lot can go wrong when we're dealing with such huge amounts of money from unknown investors. I'm not talking about anything insidious but I expect the "final" game to be significantly scaled down compared to the original pitch. That won't stop me from pledging way too much though. All I want is a new single-player space sim. The persistent world is just a bonus!

Yes but stretch goals are supposed to excite people and get them to fund/up pledges and someone visiting the Kickstarter page for the first time and seeing "500 more credits!!!!!11" as a stretch goal isn't going to be particularly hyped. That's what I think anyway.

There's the "big" stretch goals on the main site, yes, but those are still vague and confusing. Anyway, maybe what I'm complaining about will make no difference after all, we'll get to see in the coming days.
 

Zabojnik

Member
There's stretch goals on the Kickstarter now. But I feel like Roberts has gravely misunderstood the purpose and power of stretch goals. It seems the goals are things along the lines of "X amount gets players random in-game bonus/X more starting credits/etc" when it should be "X amount adds this minor yet cool feature/another class of ships/etc".

Do people really give a shit if they start out with X amount of credits, random in-game item Y or whatever, especially when at this stage nobody really knows yet what it all means for the gameplay anyway?

That's exactly what the 1.000.000$ stretch goal does. Adds another playable ship, the Anvil Gladiator. Sure, every backer also gets 500 credits, but that's the lesser bonus. And if the leaked stretch goals are any indication, there'll be a ton of features to pledge towards to. Additional star systems to explore on launch, additional 42-page fiction manual, additional base type (alien derelict), extended hardcore flight sim controller support (flight chairs, multiple monitors, Track-IR, MDF panels and more), the first Squadron 42 mission disk, Behind Enemy Lines, available for free to all backers upon release ...

They seem to have lots of features and cool stuff planned.
 

Zabojnik

Member
The second part of Robert's interview is up on Rock, Paper, Shotgun.

RPS: You’ve mentioned very robust peripheral support, which is cool. Using a game pad, using a keyboard and mouse, using a flight stick… Could I use the super massive 320-million button Steel Battalion controller?

Roberts: I’d have to look at the Steel Battalion controller. You’re not talking about the Kinect thing, are you?

RPS: God no.

Roberts: I don’t know. There was that device that can track your finger motions really accurately. I think it’s not out just yet, but they were going to prototype it. It’s going to go in front of your monitor, and the idea is that you can do this in front and it’s super pixel-accurate. So not like Kinect, which is completely inaccurate. If we get that, that would be another thing to support.

Awesome. Leap Motion support could be very interesting with the advanced HUD interface they're designing ...
 
"KBM is all i care about. If they support a gamepad I just worry controlls will be too dumbed down."


For a space sim?

???

??????

Hopefully, the game is designed so that flight sticks are the preferred input device. I worry after Freelancer.
 

Munin

Member
KBM is all i care about. If they support a gamepad I just worry controlls will be too dumbed down.

Sorry, care to explain how controls can be "dumbed down"? You want a deliberately obtuse sea of keyboard shortcuts just to recall the good old times?
 

Zaptruder

Banned
The second part of Robert's interview is up on Rock, Paper, Shotgun.



Awesome. Leap Motion support could be very interesting with the advanced HUD interface they're designing ...

It's purely speculative... but the way Chris is talking in that interview makes me think that his backers are people like Richard Garriot and John Carmack.

Not necessarily those two (although he mentions them a few times) - but simply big name old school developers that are semi-retired or would have a vested interest in seeing a return to PC gaming glory.

That'd be cool anyway.

Also, leap motion + Oculus Rift would be pure splooge gaming. Sure, have you physical joystick, but then toggle ship functions by using your hands to press the buttons in the ship that you see with your eyes.

That shit will make pressing buttons on a keyboard, looking at a 2D screen feel like a baby's toy.
 

Grief.exe

Member
KBM is all i care about. If they support a gamepad I just worry controlls will be too dumbed down.


I feel like anyone will be able to pick up and play with the controller, but you are going to need a keyboard with either a joystiq or mouse to pull off some of the more complicated maneuvers.


I've read a couple posts about the Newtonian flying mechanics. And he says once you upgrade your thrusters and flight computer, you can pull off some pretty complicated maneuvers.
The classic one is someone is behind you, shut off thrusters, turn the ship around, and fire at the guy behind you, while maintaining your same velocity vector.
 
I feel like anyone will be able to pick up and play with the controller, but you are going to need a keyboard with either a joystiq or mouse to pull off some of the more complicated maneuvers.


I've read a couple posts about the Newtonian flying mechanics. And he says once you upgrade your thrusters and flight computer, you can pull off some pretty complicated maneuvers.
The classic one is someone is behind you, shut off thrusters, turn the ship around, and fire at the guy behind you, while maintaining your same velocity vector.

I don't see any reason why that would be any more difficult on a 360 pad than it would on a flight stick. You could do exactly the same thing with the newtonian physics in I-War 2 and I have no doubts that it would have played fine on a pad, though it has admittedly been many years since I last played it.

I think the only time it might be problematic would be having to move the thumb away from right stick to press one of the buttons on the face of the controller, but that should only take a split second if the controls are well implemented.
 

Zabojnik

Member
For me, it's all about immersion. The pilot is controlling the ship with a stick and so should I in RL. HOTAS(s) forever.

Also, leap motion + Oculus Rift would be pure splooge gaming. Sure, have you physical joystick, but then toggle ship functions by using your hands to press the buttons in the ship that you see with your eyes.

Must ... not ... get ... overly ... excited.
 

gatti-man

Member
"KBM is all i care about. If they support a gamepad I just worry controlls will be too dumbed down."


For a space sim?

???

??????

Hopefully, the game is designed so that flight sticks are the preferred input device. I worry after Freelancer.

If you are controlling a squadron using a controller just isn't enough choice. What if you are controlling a large fleet type ship. The original wing commander has more inputs than a controller alone allows and that game is 20+ years old.
 
If you are controlling a squadron using a controller just isn't enough choice. What if you are controlling a large fleet type ship. The original wing commander has more inputs than a controller alone allows and that game is 20+ years old.

It really didn't. Not if you ignore things that really don't need mapping to a controller like external camera angles, which can be kept to the keyboard without much inconvenience.

Comms as implemented in the WC games can easily be handled using a modifier button like L3. If you're expecting complex capital ship simulation, I think you will be disappointed.
 

Sentenza

Member
"KBM is all i care about. If they support a gamepad I just worry controlls will be too dumbed down."


For a space sim?

???

??????

Hopefully, the game is designed so that flight sticks are the preferred input device.
Yep, there's no better way to play a space sim and that's what I'm hoping they are focusing on the most: a flightstick plus some eventual extra function via keyboard.
Whoever claims otherwise is just wrong. Fuck both console controllers and mice.
 

Durante

Member
I thought the mouse controls in freelancer weren't bad. Not particularly immersive (though who says you'd steer a spacecraft with a joystick?), but quite good in terms of functionality.
 

gatti-man

Member
It really didn't. Not if you ignore things that really don't need mapping to a controller like external camera angles, which can be kept to the keyboard without much inconvenience.

Comms as implemented in the WC games can easily be handled using a modifier button like L3. If you're expecting complex capital ship simulation, I think you will be disappointed.

Yes it really did. I'm expecting a Wing commander type control scheme and if it includes that a controller only setup will be gimped. Viewpoints alone require button presses. That's 5 off the top of my head. Controlling rear turrets, hot weapon switching, target controlling etc.


Yep, there's no better way to play a space sim and that's what I'm hoping they are focusing on the most: a flightstick plus some eventual extra function via keyboard.
Whoever claims otherwise is just wrong. Fuck both console controllers and mice.
That's basically what I'm saying just that I don't expect everyone to shell out for a good joystick.
 
Yes it really did. I'm expecting a Wing commander type control scheme and if it includes that a controller only setup will be gimped. Viewpoints alone require button presses. That's 5 off the top of my head. Controlling rear turrets, hot weapon switching, target controlling etc.

Using one button for a modifier, the 360 controller has two analogue sticks and 30 buttons. I could easily map 60 or more commands to a 360 pad if you really want to complicate things.

For example A is the targeting button. Pressing A targets what's under the reticle, press A+Up on dpad targets nearest enemy, pressing A+left/right on dpad cycles backwards/forwards through targets, press A+down on dpad targets mission objective. You could do this for every button if necessary.

It really does not take much imagination to see how dozens of functions can be mapped to a controller if you want complex controls.

Viewpoint control? L3 + right stick for example. Though frankly anyone not using TrackIR is gimped as far as viewing goes anyway.

Doesn't mean a controller will be the best way to play, but there's no reason why anything should need to be dumbed down to support one.
 

Purkake4

Banned
Trouble in paradise?

The problem with a lot of the concept-only kickstarters will probably be that everyone is paying for their version of the game, not what's actually going to be made.
 

gatti-man

Member
Using one button for a modifier, the 360 controller has two analogue sticks and 30 buttons. I could easily map 60 or more commands to a 360 pad if you really want to complicate things.

For example A is the targeting button. Pressing A targets what's under the reticle, press A+Up on dpad targets nearest enemy, pressing A+left/right on dpad cycles backwards/forwards through targets, press A+down on dpad targets mission objective. You could do this for every button if necessary.

It really does not take much imagination to see how dozens of functions can be mapped to a controller if you want complex controls.

Viewpoint control? L3 + right stick for example. Though frankly anyone not using TrackIR is gimped as far as viewing goes anyway.

Doesn't mean a controller will be the best way to play, but there's no reason why anything should need to be dumbed down to support one.

Name one game with 60 commands on a controller only. Heck Id settle for 40.

No using a keyboard for view isn't gimped. It always quick view finding. Ask me how I know. Controller only will be gimped in the sense of fps with pad vs fps with keyboard in mp. Pad players will get shelled.
 

Perkel

Banned
Using one button for a modifier, the 360 controller has two analogue sticks and 30 buttons. I could easily map 60 or more commands to a 360 pad if you really want to complicate things.

For example A is the targeting button. Pressing A targets what's under the reticle, press A+Up on dpad targets nearest enemy, pressing A+left/right on dpad cycles backwards/forwards through targets, press A+down on dpad targets mission objective. You could do this for every button if necessary.

It really does not take much imagination to see how dozens of functions can be mapped to a controller if you want complex controls.

Viewpoint control? L3 + right stick for example. Though frankly anyone not using TrackIR is gimped as far as viewing goes anyway.

Doesn't mean a controller will be the best way to play, but there's no reason why anything should need to be dumbed down to support one.

20-30 sure but 60 ? no way. Even if you map something like 20 it still need to be usefull. Targeting system you described would not be anywhere near fast.
 

Zabojnik

Member
Trouble in paradise?

The problem with a lot of the concept-only kickstarters will probably be that everyone is paying for their version of the game, not what's actually going to be made.

Except we pretty much know exactly what to expect. Wing Commander / Privateer / Freelancer + the MMO aspect (that shouldn't change the control scheme that much). From experience, I'd say you'll still need a keyboard to play comfortably, no matter what controller you're going to use (x360 joypad, mouse, HOTAS). As with any sim, really. The game will support everything, don't know what the problem is. Stick to the one you're most comfortable with and let others use whatever they like best.
 
Name one game with 60 commands on a controller only. Heck Id settle for 40.

No using a keyboard for view isn't gimped. It always quick view finding. Ask me how I know. Controller only will be gimped in the sense of fps with pad vs fps with keyboard in mp. Pad players will get shelled.

How many games have even come out in recent years that have 60 commands? That doesn't mean it can't be done. It was just an example of what's possible if you don't mind making complex controls. And people have already successfully played newtonian physics based space sims on gamepads, even when the game didn't have official support for it (see I-War 2 for example).

You said that WC has more commands than a gamepad allows, I've shown why that is incorrect. Now you've shifted your argument to saying that gamepad players have a competitive disadvantage. Maybe they will, maybe they wont, but that's their choice and it will come down to the individual (and note that flying a ship is not the same as controlling a person in an FPS when it comes to speed of aiming - otherwise we would all use a mouse instead of flightstick for the competitive advantage).

Your keyboard limited viewing is going to be completely inferior to TrackIR in my opinion, but you should certainly still have the choice of using a keyboard to do it, and maybe that works better for you.

Perkel said:
20-30 sure but 60 ? no way. Even if you map something like 20 it still need to be usefull. Targeting system you described would not be anywhere near fast.

Really? You can't press two buttons on a controller at the same time quickly? It would take a split second to press a button plus dpad up to target nearest enemy, but maybe that's just me. For targeting I'd probably use R3 instead of A so you could do it without releasing pitch/yaw controls at all.

You also need to keep in mind that even if you did map 60 commands, many of those would be lesser used commands. I mean it's not like you're going to be using 60 commands in the heat of battle. But again, 60 was just an example of how complex you could get. I think you could probably map around 30 commands and play WC just fine, then use keyboard for the more rare ones, like the multitude of fixed external camera angles.

Zabojnik said:
The game will support everything, don't know what the problem is. Stick to the one you're most comfortable with and let others use whatever they like best.

I agree entirely. The only problem is that some people seem to think that merely supporting a gamepad is going to dumb down the game.
 

gatti-man

Member
How many games have even come out in recent years that have 60 commands? That doesn't mean it can't be done. It was just an example of what's possible if you don't mind making complex controls. And people have already successfully played newtonian physics based space sims on gamepads, even when the game didn't have official support for it (see I-War 2 for example).

You said that WC has more commands than a gamepad allows, I've shown why that is incorrect. Now you've shifted your argument to saying that gamepad players have a competitive disadvantage. Maybe they will, maybe they wont, but that's their choice and it will come down to the individual (and note that flying a ship is not the same as controlling a person in an FPS when it comes to speed of aiming - otherwise we would all use a mouse instead of flightstick for the competitive advantage).

Your keyboard limited viewing is going to be completely inferior to TrackIR in my opinion, but you should certainly still have the choice of using a keyboard to do it, and maybe that works better for you.


Really? You can't press two buttons on a controller at the same time quickly? It would take a split second to press a button plus dpad up to target nearest enemy, but maybe that's just me. For targeting I'd probably use R3 instead of A so you could do it without releasing pitch/yaw controls at all.

You also need to keep in mind that even if you did map 60 commands, many of those would be lesser used commands. I mean it's not like you're going to be using 60 commands in the heat of battle. But again, 60 was just an example of how complex you could get. I think you could probably map around 30 commands and play WC just fine, then use keyboard for the more rare ones, like the multitude of fixed external camera angles.



I agree entirely. The only problem is that some people seem to think that merely supporting a gamepad is going to dumb down the game.

You haven't proved anything at all. The reason I asked to provide even one example is to point out you are 100% wrong. A dev won't even attempt it because it makes zero sense and wouldn't work. TrackIR seems great in theory but id rather not be moving my head around to get the screen to move. Have you ever played the WC series or x wing vs tie fighter? But it's moot since farther down you admit defeat by saying you would use a keyboard supplement. That wouldn't really work either unless you had some special one hand controller.
 
You haven't proved anything at all. The reason I asked to provide even one example is to point out you are 100% wrong. A dev won't even attempt it because it makes zero sense and wouldn't work. TrackIR seems great in theory but id rather not be moving my head around to get the screen to move. Have you ever played the WC series or x wing vs tie fighter?

Yes, I've also played the Elite, I-War, Freespace, X series and plenty of others. Heck, even Battlecruiser Millennium. I also have a several hundred dollar HOTAS and rudder pedal setup and have played numerous flight sims of all level of complexity, including the likes of Falcon 4.0 (my favourite) and Jane's F/A-18. And like I said originally, this is a space combat sim, it's no Falcon 4.

So why wouldn't it work? I've already told you exactly how it can work and your only answer is "but no games have done that". Developers haven't done it because it would be complex and unappealing for the general video game audience these days, which is pretty much exactly the same reason we don't get any space sims at all anymore. But this game isn't aiming for that audience.

Maybe you aren't able to perform key combinations that require pressing more than a single button a time, but that isn't the case for me and dare I say plenty of others who can handle complex controls. Like those who enjoy I-War 2 with a 360 pad for instance.

But it's moot since farther down you admit defeat by saying you would use a keyboard supplement. That wouldn't really work either unless you had some special one hand controller.

I kind of feel like you're being deliberately obtuse now.

First of all I didn't say that it's what _I_ would do, I was saying you could do it if you didn't want to cram so much onto a controller. If I was going to use a controller myself I think I'd have no problem with mapping it all on there.

Secondly, I think it was clear I was talking about the rarely used commands that don't need to be directly under your fingertips. I have no idea why you think that would be a problem. Why on earth would you need a one handed controller to take one hand off the gamepad and tap a key for some function that's infrequently used? Do you actually use fixed external cams in the middle of a dog fight so that you need them immediately beneath your fingers? Or the button to toggle on/off the grid on the navigation map?

I've done the same thing in flight sims for keyboard shortcuts that I've not had mapped to my HOTAS (real world fighter pilots take their hands off the stick or throttle to press buttons too).

The point is that some stuff is fine to delegate to the keyboard because it doesn't need to be so immediately accessible. Commands that tend to be used during "downtime". You could also bind them to the controller using modifiers, but it isn't necessary to do so in my opinion.

This really isn't as hard as you seem to think it is.

Edit: In regards to TrackIR, the head movement isn't 1:1. You adjust the sensitivity so it only takes small movements to use, much like using a mouse with your hand. Just mentioning that in case you didn't know (people often don't realise that about it).
 

FACE

Banned
They synchronized the kickstarter pledges with the ones on their own website.

Officially at 2,392,949 now :)
 

Grief.exe

Member
Hmmm, I kinda already Kickstarted enough games I feel....

...CryEngine 3 you say?.....

$35 pledged!

Not only that but the level of graphical fidelity they are going for is amazing.

I saw a comment they made on kickstarter about how the carrier that you saw in the demo took 4 months to design.

Still need over 3.5 million more.

I WILL NOT BE DENIED MY DREAMS!

Crowd funded projects go into kind of a lull period between their initial push and the last week.

We are in that lull now, but the last week should be huge. The last 72 hours in particular earn a lot of money.

Project eternity and double fine adventure alone earned over a million in their last 72 hours.
 

Zabojnik

Member
So I guess 4mil is doable, don't see it going higher than that. It would still make it the biggest crowdfunded game, I think. They should release a new trailer to rekindle the pledging campaign, even if it's mostly a rehash of the first one.
 

gatti-man

Member
So I guess 4mil is doable, don't see it going higher than that. It would still make it the biggest crowdfunded game, I think. They should release a new trailer to rekindle the pledging campaign, even if it's mostly a rehash of the first one.

4 million would make me feel great about this games future. Even 3 million assures we get something of quality I think.
 

Sentenza

Member
So I guess 4mil is doable, don't see it going higher than that. It would still make it the biggest crowdfunded game, I think. They should release a new trailer to rekindle the pledging campaign, even if it's mostly a rehash of the first one.
Considering how crowdfunding was supposed to be just about boosting confidence in private investors, I would guess that at some point they would implement all these features anyway, regardless of the final sum.
 

Sentenza

Member
it's more like more backers = more content at faster rate.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.
More funds ahead probably means that content is coming at a faster rate, but given how obviously successful it's been so far (and imagining how even more successful is going to be at its release) I would guess that this content is going to be implemented anyway at some point, regardless of the final sum gathered with their crowdfunding campaign.
 

Hackbert

Member
nearly @ 2.500.000 ...

COMBAT ALERT: if we reach the $2.5 million stretch goal in the next
four hours, we will be giving away ten brand new Anvil Gladiator
bombers! Everyone who has pledged will be eligible and has an equal
chance of winning: we'll notify the RSI winners later this week and
the Kickstarter ones after November 19. Let's hit that goal, pilots!
Tell your friends - even a $10 pledge qualifies!


a bit dissapointed about that. thought i would have an extra ship at the start
An additional flyable ship, the Anvil Gladiator
 

Izayoi

Banned
Will it support Oculus Rift? Yes.
Kickstarter is making me broke.

So how does this work, anyway? Do I have to choose between a site and get only those stretch rewards, or does any pledge on any site get you all of the cross-site rewards?
 

Zabojnik

Member
They posted some info on the Xi'An on the page. Pretty cool. SPACEEEEEEEEE TURTLEEEEEEEEESSSS!!!

Xian-front-300x238.png
Xian-profile-300x238.png
 
nearly @ 2.500.000 ...




a bit dissapointed about that. thought i would have an extra ship at the start

It never said that. I always read it as that it will be integrated within the game from the start rather than released over time as part of their DLC and expansion packs.

They posted some info on the Xi'An on the page. Pretty cool. SPACEEEEEEEEE TURTLEEEEEEEEESSSS!!!

Xian-front-300x238.png
Xian-profile-300x238.png

They're enemies, right?
 

Zabojnik

Member
They're enemies, right?

They're allies, kinda. The enemies would be the Vanduul.

I know the UEE hasn’t had the friendliest history with the Xi’An, do they still hate us?

In the darker era of human history, the Imperator and government often used the Xi’An threat as a means to terrify their own citizens and swell the power of the military. Although neither side declared open war, there were many casualties on both sides from covert operations, sabotage, and espionage.

Due to their extended lifespan, there are Xi’An from that era are still alive. For example, Emperor Kray who negotiated the daring peace accord with Senator Akari back in 2789 is still in power.

There are undoubtedly members of the Xi’An government who still regard the UEE with suspicion and distrust. The current Imperator has always been clear that our futures are intertwined. As more human Corps enter into tech-exchange deals with Xi’An companies, apparently they feel the same.
 

Grief.exe

Member
Why does the op say 3.3 million funded? You don't add the kickstarter to the main page anymore, they added them together.

It even says so on the Robert space industries counter.

And why is this game not more popular on GAF?
 

Zabojnik

Member
Chris Roberts is answering questions via the site's live chat right now. Such an awesome guy.

Christopher Roberts: Zabojnik: Checked the Leap out today as well - Leap + Rift + HOTAS + Rudder pedals + Flight Chair will be the full cockpit VR experience!

*nerdgasm*
 
Why does the op say 3.3 million funded? You don't add the kickstarter to the main page anymore, they added them together.

It even says so on the Robert space industries counter.

And why is this game not more popular on GAF?

Maybe change the title to Most ambitious game ever! to grab peoples attention to checking it out, it kind of is with everything he promised.
 

rochet

Member
Finally bought the 35 dollar one, first kick starter I payed, hope It turns out as good as his old wing commander series.
 

xenist

Member
Ever since this came up I go a couple of times a week at a PC hardware store and fondle the Saitek X-52 they have on display. Complete with space noises.
 
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