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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting

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Burny

Member
Show the most beautiful space combat sim ever made, no one cares

Show some first-person shooting and a little open-world exploration and suddenly everyone's losing their minds

"No one" threw some 85 million dollar after them, just so the game gets made in the first place. Someone seems to care rather much I'd say.

As for awareness and enthusiasm in the "general public"... Let's be realistic. What was shown of the most beautiful space combat sim ever made, was a janky tech demo with beautiful assets but very little finished game to hold those together. Beautiful assets are being made by other studios in the industry as well and the promise of some mythic ultra game one or two years down the line will hardly cause riots when there's hardly more than decidedly wip demos to show now. PC exclusive and targeted at absolute high end machines on top of that, which severly limits the target audience.

ATM we probably can't expect to average Joe-wants-to-kill-two-hours-every-other-evening gamer to wet their pants because of Star Citizen, when there are perfectly good other games to play in the meantime. The hardcore online gamers, who'll probably be the target audience for SC's PU, won't get much out of Star Citizen now either, because to keep them occupied, it needs a released game. Between CS:GO, Eve, LoL, WoT, WoW and all the others, they'll probably find their fix elsewhere.

The game will have its time to shine when it's in a releasable state. In the meanwhile though, I don't think there's any reason for jealousy for the attention other games may be getting. Especially, as it remains to be seen whether space combat sims can even have the mass appeal that todays shooter's enjoy.
 

Geist-

Member
"I'm not defending Illfonic, but I'd think that zero-G combat (zero-G *anything*, really) is probably one of the hardest,"

A company that had only done tech demos managed to pretty much nail Zero-G FPS combat with their first game release.

If you're talking about Shattered Horizons, ya, I hope they take a cue from them while reworking 0-g. By far the most underrated FPS of all time.

Does SC support force feedback by any chance?

Not sure about right now but this is supposedly based on the x65 that came with force feedback (don't pay attention to spring, it was a prototype).
 

Zalusithix

Member
Not sure about right now but this is supposedly based on the x65 that came with force feedback (don't pay attention to spring, it was a prototype).

The X65 was force sensing, not force feedback. Force feedback on sticks is something from a bygone age. Don't expect to see it.
 

Geist-

Member
You're gonna have to screenshot that Geist :p

gettin dem 404s. Screenshot it :D

For your viewing pleasure:

pKzMIXC.png


F3CjBtw.png
 

FGMPR

Banned
The X65 was force sensing, not force feedback. Force feedback on sticks is something from a bygone age. Don't expect to see it.

Whilst its true that no force-feedback sticks are currently being produced, the reality is every flight sim (which I know of) in the last 10 years has had FF support, and developers like Eagle Dynamics and 777 studios continue to tweak and put effort and resources into its optimisation.

In flight sims, the FF is used for a realistic implementation of trim (the stick physically stays in its trimmed position--hugely important for helicopter flight) as well as being allowing you to feel the effects of a stall coming on; obviously, such implementations have no place in a space sim, but its still a shame to see Elite and SC lacking when it comes to such an immersive feature.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Whilst its true that no force-feedback sticks are currently being produced, the reality is every flight sim (which I know of) in the last 10 years has had FF support, and developers like Eagle Dynamics and 777 studios continue to tweak and put effort and resources into its optimisation.

In flight sims, the FF is used for a realistic implementation of trim (the stick physically stays in its trimmed position--hugely important for helicopter flight) as well as being allowing you to feel the effects of a stall coming on; obviously, such implementations have no place in a space sim, but its still a shame to see Elite and SC lacking when it comes to such an immersive feature.
Why spend effort implementing a feature that has no purpose in a fly by wire space ship, and is only supported by a small subset of old sticks? Eagle Dynamics at least has legacy code to pull from, and has sims that would actually make use of the feature.
 

FGMPR

Banned
Why spend effort implementing a feature that has no purpose in a fly by wire space ship, and is only supported by a small subset of old sticks. Eagle dynamics at least has legacy code to pull from, and has sims that would actually make use of the feature.

Well... because its fun to use and besides, even fly-by-wire systems can communicate various things via the feedback effects, even if they don't directly relate. The support not happening due to no new sticks on the market I can definitely understand; the technology itself, however, is sound. Hell, even without the FF effects, the MS Force Feedback 2 is infinitely more accurate and consistent than any spring-centered stick I've used (though I've yet to try a Warthog), and being able to tweak the various types of forces pretty much enables you to have a stick which feels however you want it to... its great, and at the same time a real shame we don't see more of it. Games like Elite and SC (especially with SC having a specific stick range) could have really helped bring it back, imo.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Whilst its true that no force-feedback sticks are currently being produced, the reality is every flight sim (which I know of) in the last 10 years has had FF support, and developers like Eagle Dynamics and 777 studios continue to tweak and put effort and resources into its optimisation.

In flight sims, the FF is used for a realistic implementation of trim (the stick physically stays in its trimmed position--hugely important for helicopter flight) as well as being allowing you to feel the effects of a stall coming on; obviously, such implementations have no place in a space sim, but its still a shame to see Elite and SC lacking when it comes to such an immersive feature.

you don't stall in space. and there are no helicopters there, either.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Well... because its fun to use and besides, even fly-by-wire systems can communicate various things via the feedback effects, even if they don't directly relate. The support not happening due to no new sticks on the market I can definitely understand; the technology itself, however, is sound. Hell, even without the FF effects, the MS Force Feedback 2 is infinitely more accurate and consistent than any spring-centered stick I've used (though I've yet to try a Warthog), and being able to tweak the various types of forces pretty much enables you to have a stick which feels however you want it to... its great, and at the same time a real shame we don't see more of it. Games like Elite and SC (especially with SC having a specific stick range) could have really helped bring it back, imo.

Force feedback in this case would be useless. There's no control surfaces to "feel". As for damage, you can have dozens of individual thrusters that could be disabled. Communicating this with any accuracy through force feedback would be nigh impossible. So at most it would be a glorified rumble device that happened to jostle a bit when taking damage. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but a lot of effort for minimal return on sticks that make up like 1% of those currently in use.
 
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but a lot of effort for minimal return on sticks that make up like 1% of those currently in use.

Respectfully, if your argument comes to % of people using a device or feature then you don't get the sim community. You can find active communities on long *dead* games being held up by modders and enthusiasts. Hell it's why so many people threw money with CR's original pitch, to fill the niche of a space sim that has been so long ignored for enthusiasts. It's not about "how many people will use this?" But "does it improve the experience?"


As far as FF this is a space game so they have handwavium to make something that can be useful with a "fly by wire" system with simulated feedback.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Respectfully, if your argument comes to % of people using a device or feature then you don't get the sim community. You can find active communities on long *dead* games being held up by modders and enthusiasts. Hell it's why so many people threw money with CR's original pitch, to fill the niche of a space sim that has been so long ignored for enthusiasts. It's not about "how many people will use this?" But "does it improve the experience?"


As far as FF this is a space game so they have handwavium to make something that can be useful with a "fly by wire" system with simulated feedback.

If you ignore the number of people using something, then anybody could clamor for support of X/Y/Z that only they have. The people with HOTAS units in general already make up the minority of SC players. The number of people who have a working force feedback stick from before the millennium change are an extremely small subset of that. The sticks are dead. Nobody makes them. Nobody is planning on making them. Supporting them is pointless until the last two points are different. There's only going to be less of those sticks in the future, not more. There's a finite supply and wear and tear will erode that supply until there are no more.

The most you can hope for would be CIG exposing an API that the community could tap into to write their own feedback code.

Edit: And having something to tap into would allow motion simulators. There's probably as many of those in active service these days among the sim crowd as there are force feedback joysticks. Those would net a heck of a lot more immersion than joystick feedback.
 
If you ignore the number of people using something, then anybody could clamor for support of X/Y/Z that only they have. The people with HOTAS units in general already make up the minority of SC players. The number of people who have a working force feedback stick from before the millennium change are an extremely small subset of that. The sticks are dead. Nobody makes them. Nobody is planning on making them. Supporting them is pointless until the last two points are different. There's only going to be less of those sticks in the future, not more. There's a finite supply and wear and tear will erode that supply until there are no more.

The most you can hope for would be CIG exposing an API that the community could tap into to write their own feedback code.

X/Y/Z like Trackir, OR/VR, etc? The reason why stick users are a minority in SC is because their implementation is so bad. Even their largest polls show the numbers are even when it comes to intent. As far as sticks in general it a supply and demand thing. There are sticks and even the cheapest HOTAS units cost less than most gaming mice and keyboard (which is a moot point considering the cost of PC gaming in general). The reason they do not sell is the lack of games for them. Again it's why SC got so much early funding because CR said he wanted to make a game for the enthusiasts. If games would support it, they would make more of these devices.
 

Zalusithix

Member
X/Y/Z like Trackir, OR/VR, etc? The reason why stick users are a minority in SC is because their implementation is so bad. Even their largest polls show the numbers are even when it comes to intent. As far as sticks in general it a supply and demand thing. There are sticks and even the cheapest HOTAS units cost less than most gaming mice and keyboard (which is a moot point considering the cost of PC gaming in general). The reason they do not sell is the lack of games for them. Again it's why SC got so much early funding because CR said he wanted to make a game for the enthusiasts. If games would support it, they would make more of these devices.

TrackIR is in production, OR/VR will be in production. There's a difference between supporting things that are still products or will be products in the future and supporting something that's dead and has been dead for many years.

As for game support allowing new force feedback sticks to be made.... I'm sure Saitek/MadCatz did market studies for that when collaborating with CIG. If they're not going the FF route, then they obviously don't think even Star Citizen could make it a viable product line.
 

Daedardus

Member
That's the most hardcore keyboard I've ever seen. I can do touch typing , but sometimes I do need a reference for special characters. Makes sure only pros can use your keyboard though.
 

Zalusithix

Member
That's the most hardcore keyboard I've ever seen. I can do touch typing , but sometimes I do need a reference for special characters. Makes sure only pros can use your keyboard though.
You haven't seen many keyboards then. For blank boards, take a look at something like the Ergodox with blank caps. For hardcore even with labels, look at the DataHand. There's other examples too. A traditional keyboard with blank caps set up in a presumably QWERTY layout is pretty tame by keyboard standards.
 

Daedardus

Member
You haven't seen many keyboards then. For blank boards, take a look at something like the Ergodox with blank caps. For hardcore even with labels, look at the DataHand. There's other examples too. A traditional keyboard with blank caps set up in a presumably QWERTY layout is pretty tame by keyboard standards.

Well, yeah, but they hardly resemble a keyboard anymore. Although a Veyboard/Velotype resembles a more traditional one but is a lot harder in use.
 

Geist-

Member
Patch 1.2.1 has been pushed to the PTU.

Star Citizen Alpha Patch 1.2.1

This hotfix patch has been focused on known issues and quality of life updates for ArcCorp. Our current patch notes are also hosted on the PTU website and can be found here. Access to the PTU patch notes on the website requires a PTU account (which uses the password that was sent by RSI via email after copying your account over).
Hangar Module:
Fixes:

Ships
  • Fixed an issue where characters would not be properly aligned in the Retaliator when attempting to sit in the Retaliator pilot chair.
  • Fixed an issue where characters would appear outside of the Gladiator when attempting to sit down in the Gladiator pilot chair.
  • Fixed an issue where the pilot of a Vanduul Scythe would experience unusual camera shaking when looking around in-game.

Environment
  • Fixed several texture conflict issues in the Selfland Hangar.

User Interface
  • Fixed an issue where client FPS would drop when the cursor hovered over scrolling text.
  • Fixed an issue where rapidly switching between different sections in the game menu would sometimes lock out access to device cycling.
Arena Commander Module:
Fixes:

Ships
  • Fixed an issue with the Vanduul Glaive, where the boost would not work as it had no fuel. to device cycling.

User Interface
  • Fixed an issue where players would be unable to trigger respawn if they died while interacting with the HUD.
  • The right-CTRL key is now the default toggle for Weapon Gimbal Lock as Left-ALT is now used for another function.
Social Module:
Additions:

Environment
  • Characters will now be teleported back to a safe spawn point if they fall out of Area 18’s geometry.

User Interface
  • There is a new loading screen when taking the elevator from the Hangar to ArcCorp’s Area 18.
  • Chat channels and display names now have a color to distinguish them from chat text.
  • Channel [Local] is now in yellow.
  • Player display names are now in blue.
  • When using Augmented Reality, shop items will now have a blue highlight when targeted.
  • The left-ALT key now enables use of the Mouse and locks the character in place, allowing use of buttons, tabs and other in-game functionality.
Balance/Tweaks:

User Interface
  • Character names in Augmented Reality will now transition in and out of view based on range at a smother, more gradual rate.
Fixes:



Environment
  • Fixed a collision issue where characters could clip out of the map in the Medical Unit back alley.
  • Fixed a collision issue where characters could clip out of the map in Dumper’s Depot.
  • Fixed a number of texture of conflicts and lighting bugs in ArcCorp.

User Interface
  • Updated the advanced keybinding options and keyboard keymap image in the game menu to now show the Social Module features.

A new AtV as well, with an interesting segment on the Avenger for fans of that ship.

Nothing too interesting from RtV except that apparently, the Constellation rework might finally be finished at the end of this month. Exciting time to be a Connie owner. :)

And finally, Star Marine update was released, here's the video that was included.

Hooligan Testing

Also, interesting tidbit:

It all went as planned! After the long weekend of manual merge conflict resolutions as well an enormous code review, we are now on a single dev stream this week! Great news for the overall project. As someone observed on the forums last week, this means the beginnings of persistence!

Maybe the most recent prediction for Star Marine might actually be accurate this time... But that would be crazy.
 

Geist-

Member
Going completely limp on impact is silly. I hope they're looking into something like Euphoria (from Rockstar's games).

Eh, if they have to compromise on a part of the game to get it out the door, ragdoll body physics wouldn't be the worst thing. I have a feeling Euphoria is a lot of extra work.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Eh, if they have to compromise on a part of the game to get it out the door, ragdoll body physics wouldn't be the worst thing. I have a feeling Euphoria is a lot of extra work.
Realistic reactions is going to be relatively important. Remember, this is all in a first person perspective. Getting knocked down and having your head (and thus view) flop all over the place while your body is sliding and your limbs are flailing is going to result in some extremely odd visuals.
 
Going completely limp on impact is silly. I hope they're looking into something like Euphoria (from Rockstar's games).

Eh, if they have to compromise on a part of the game to get it out the door, ragdoll body physics wouldn't be the worst thing. I have a feeling Euphoria is a lot of extra work.
The AEGIS system they detailed before is basically a euphoria-like hit reactions system. I would not put too much negative energy into a minute long test video. As always... "be patient"™
 

Geist-

Member
Realistic reactions is going to be relatively important. Remember, this is all in a first person perspective. Getting knocked down and having your head (and thus view) flop all over the place while your body is sliding and your limbs are flailing is going to result in some extremely odd visuals.

Come on, it's not that bad, I can show you plenty of examples of GTAV's bodies looking just as stupid even with Euphoria. Nothing's perfect, and it's not exactly the most important part of making the game. As long as the bodies don't drop to the floor and disappear, it's acceptable.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Come on, it's not that bad, I can show you plenty of examples of GTAV's bodies looking just as stupid even with Euphoria. Nothing's perfect, and it's not exactly the most important part of making the game. As long as the bodies don't drop to the floor and disappear, it's acceptable.

Well disappearing would be quite worrisome considering it wasn't necessarily a death animation. =P The comparison to GTA is kind of moot as well considering GTA isn't running the same "FPS view bolted to the head of the actual model" setup.

Also, I'm not worried about it as I viewed it more as a collision demo than a finalized animation system. However, that doesn't change the fact that having something more realistic than what was shown in that video is important for the final product.
 

KKRT00

Member
Eh, if they have to compromise on a part of the game to get it out the door, ragdoll body physics wouldn't be the worst thing. I have a feeling Euphoria is a lot of extra work.

Euphoria its not a lot of extra work, but it is extremely expensive. Thats why it was used only in two game series.
 

Burny

Member
If they had this as a gameplay mode, I'd probably use it for everyday play after taking my screenshots in high-fidelity mode. Easy visibility and a lot faster to render.

Not that I'm against optimizing visuals for higher performance vs. maximum fidelity. Such a mode would provide advantages to players using it though, if it really helped in spotting ships.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Who want's to help me with my Issue Council report?

I am such a stickler for graphics. Help a GAFer out :D
Link to my issue/bug report:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/issue-council/star-citizen-alpha/SC-354-Per_object_Motion_Blur_does_not_work_on_Character_Models

edit: this is the best bug report function I have ever seen in a game. Wow.

You know somebody is going to give a presentation on crowdsourcing bug reports at GDC or conferences like it. This kind of thing is fairly common in Open Source projects, though this one is a bit more user friendly and more reddity.
 
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