Chiaroscuro
Member
On a more serious note, that kind of discovery could really jump start a new space race developing our tech.
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Star exhibits strange light patterns which could be a sign of alien activity
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On a more serious note, that kind of discovery could really jump start a new space race developing our tech.
Abstruse Moose
Member
On a more serious note, that kind of discovery could really jump start a new space race developing our tech.
I'll be so pissed if this turns out to be viral marketing for the new Star Wars movie.
Netherscourge
Banned
Don't think there are any yet since the only evidence scientists have at the moment is intermittent "shadows". But there isn't enough data to measure the shadows or identify them.
The "safest" guess is that it's just a big chunk of planetary crust from a moon or nearby planet that was destroyed in a collision with another moon or planet and the remnants are just big pieces of planet orbiting this one star in a sort of mini-asteroid belt.
LegendofJoe
Member
It would have to be a few dozen near Jupiter sized chunks of crust for this explanation to hold.
If they discovered an unnatural pattern to the occlusions, it could get interesting. Problem is that Fibonacci sequences and Pi show up in nature all the time, including orbits.
Netherscourge
Banned
Which is entirely possible.
The sooner they get more dishes and scopes pointed at this star system, the more we'll know.
Chiaroscuro
Member
That cannot be since it would mess the infra red observations of the star and they are in the normal range. It could not be debris, asteroids, planets. May be a comet cloud but that is also extremely difficult.
MrChocolate
Member
Question.
Other than the engineering process being something that we aren't even close to achieve. How would you even gather enough raw materials to build a Dyson Sphere/Shell/etc?
We are talking about a star here. Not a satellite or an asteroid.
Other than the engineering process being something that we aren't even close to achieve. How would you even gather enough raw materials to build a Dyson Sphere/Shell/etc?
We are talking about a star here. Not a satellite or an asteroid.
Orbis Tabula
Member
Yeah, gotta say, I'm not really getting hyped about this one. I think people are letting their excitement run away with them. The paper itself posits a few possible explanations other than the alien one.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Nope see above. Plus objects of that size would dim the star in a periodical way, which is not what we have seen.
Either a comet cloud (unlikely) or some natural thing that we may never seen before. When pulsars were discovered spme peopke also thought "aliens".
Sectorseven
Member
So this was back in 2011. Why does it take so long to move a telescope?
Asteroid mining? An asteroid has high volume of metals. We're speaking of trillions of dollars worth per one.
The waiting list. You may book a telescope, but it could be months and years before your turn.
The dips in brightness had no pattern to them. Or patterns that occurred for a while and then went away. Like you would expect something manmade to do.
Here's my theory:
1. We need a lot of power, turn on the Dyson sphere.
2. Gets scheduled when there's downtime, big spikes.
Can anyone compare the dips in brightness to usage and energy creation patterns at power plants?
They are so advanced they can create their own matter.
Abstruse Moose
Member
Nano materials and asteroid mining? Perhaps a civilization can harvest entire moons or planets for material.
Huw_Dawson
Member
As we are veering off topic to FTL comms:
A and B are five light seconds apart. A sends B a message at 10c. B receives the message 0.5 seconds later. The fact that A sent the message to B only arrives after five seconds.
Thus for four and a half seconds we have a message that from B's perspective has not been sent yet. This has already violated causality - we've got an effect floating about from which there is no cause.
But there's where things get silly.
Suppose that, a tiny fraction of a second later, B sends a message back to A. When does A receive this message?
From B's perspective, the message has not arrived early - it's warped back in time by four and a half seconds. So when B sends his message, that return message will also warp back in time four and a half seconds. A full second has now passed, and the message has arrived back at A nine seconds ago.
Okay, so far so causality breaking.
Suppose the contents of B's return message was to shut off A's computer, rendering it impossible to send any messages for ten seconds?
Now we have a situation where A could not have sent a message because A sent a message. This is a paradox which is impossible in a mathematically consistent universe.
Basically FTL cannot happen because information can only propagate throughout reality at a set speed. Sorry.
A and B are five light seconds apart. A sends B a message at 10c. B receives the message 0.5 seconds later. The fact that A sent the message to B only arrives after five seconds.
Thus for four and a half seconds we have a message that from B's perspective has not been sent yet. This has already violated causality - we've got an effect floating about from which there is no cause.
But there's where things get silly.
Suppose that, a tiny fraction of a second later, B sends a message back to A. When does A receive this message?
From B's perspective, the message has not arrived early - it's warped back in time by four and a half seconds. So when B sends his message, that return message will also warp back in time four and a half seconds. A full second has now passed, and the message has arrived back at A nine seconds ago.
Okay, so far so causality breaking.
Suppose the contents of B's return message was to shut off A's computer, rendering it impossible to send any messages for ten seconds?
Now we have a situation where A could not have sent a message because A sent a message. This is a paradox which is impossible in a mathematically consistent universe.
Basically FTL cannot happen because information can only propagate throughout reality at a set speed. Sorry.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Not even close. I believe that Dyson propesed to harvest the entire Jupiter for that thing.
LegendofJoe
Member
I don't think there's any harm in that. If we were the scientists actually conducting the research related to this it would be completely unprofessional, but we're not. Tons of people really want something like this to be discovered in their lifetime and I don't blame them. It would usher in a new age for humanity and who doesn't want to be around to see that?
Orbis Tabula
Member
Yeah, I still don't get how that breaks causality.
From A's perspective: At t=0, message is sent to B. At t=1, message is received from B and computer is shut off. At t=5, A sees B received message and send response. So sure, to A, it looks like causality is broken because it looks like B did a cause before an effect. But it just looks like it.
From B's perspective: At t=0, nothing. At t=.5, message is received and responded to. At t=1, nothing happens. At t=5, B sees A send the message. At t=6, B sees A receive the message and shut off. Sure, it looks to B as if they received a message before A sent it. But it just looks like that.
It's sort of like, if you're standing a few hundred feet away from me and see me bash a big gong, you'll see me do it before you hear me do it. With FTL communicate, you'll receive the message before you see me send it. But that doesn't mean I broke causality. It's just an obvious result of sending a message faster than light.
MrChocolate
Member
I think this...
...would be accurate.
And scary of course. To harvest an entire planet? What if there was life in there? Worse. What if that form of life could be viable only in that planet?
I hope if we, as a civilization, reach the point where a Dyson Shell is ever needed we don't act like exterminators just like we have done in our entire history.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Wormholes and quantum entanglement?
Like, you open a wormhole to travel there almost instantaneously then drop off a piece of comms equipment that is "entangled" to the other piece of comms equipment. Then you can send and receive messages instantaneously across space.
not really, I mean you'd be building AROUND the star, by adding platforms to harverst the power.
This is a concept art of what it could be like,
and here's what they actually found,
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I was interested in knowing this too, and started by reading about false positives here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_(spacecraft)#Planet_finding_process
Netherscourge
Banned
Yea, but life depends upon consumption, not preservation.
The only thing preservation does is delay exhaustion.
Veritigo_X
Member
This is a concept art of what it could be like,
I get that it would produce a shit ton of energy, but wouldn't it block out the sun at the same time? That seems like quite the downside.
Orbis Tabula
Member
Well, I think you build it so the Earth is inside of the sphere, too. So you still get the Sun, you just don't get the rest of the night sky.
Netherscourge
Banned
Unless they are living INSIDE the shell.
The idea would be that the shell of the sphere is at a life-supporting distance from the sun (like the distance from our Sun and Earth), so you could technically live on the inner shell of the sphere.
Which means, you'd have sunlight constantly and never any nighttime.
Veritigo_X
Member
Oh so it's literally massive, well more massive than just (lol) building it around the sun.
I meant the pop culture idea of a dyson sphere. The picture you posted looks like it would be blocking out a lot of sunlight (not 100% since there are still holes in it).
Obviously it's emitting light, which means it has holes in it. I mean it's only 22 %
Chiaroscuro
Member
Yes, but can you imagine the ammount of raw material needed to encapsulated a star from a safe distance even if it just meters thick? Jupiter may not be enough.
Here's a different and scary as fuck perspective:
What if it is a type of non-intelligent alien life? What if it were actually a virus/bacteria/mold type creature/species that travels through space in spore-like forms and feeds on the energy of stars until the star is gone?
Can you imagine if the stars in the sky started to go out one by one, with the knowledge that our sun will share the same fate and there's absolutely nothing we can do but wait until that one fateful day when an astronomer notices 'a strange dark blotch on the sun that has never been seen before.'
I'd rather deal with tyrannical aliens, personally.
What if it is a type of non-intelligent alien life? What if it were actually a virus/bacteria/mold type creature/species that travels through space in spore-like forms and feeds on the energy of stars until the star is gone?
Can you imagine if the stars in the sky started to go out one by one, with the knowledge that our sun will share the same fate and there's absolutely nothing we can do but wait until that one fateful day when an astronomer notices 'a strange dark blotch on the sun that has never been seen before.'
I'd rather deal with tyrannical aliens, personally.
Netherscourge
Banned
If there is a very thick asteroid belt, they could grab materials from there. Like the one in our solar system between Mars and Jupiter. (The white dots = asteroids)
Our asteroid belt only has a total mass that is 4% the size of our moon, but a much thicker, wider belt could provide enough material for at least a RING around the sun, rather than a full sphere.
oreomunsta
Banned
Quantum entanglement involves the change of the spin states of entangled particles. Technically, the spin states of the particles can be seen as 'data', but they don't alter the entropy of the system, so it's sort of 'useless data'. For a QE communication system to exist one day, spin states must be readable.
Chiaroscuro
Member
If there is a very thick asteroid belt, they could grab materials from there. Like the one in our solar system between Mars and Jupiter. (The white dots = asteroids)
Our asteroid belt only has a total mass that is 4% the size of our moon, but a much thicker, wider belt could provide enough material for at least a RING around the sun, rather than a full sphere.
A ring like that would not be able to dim a star light by 0.5% let alone 22%. Think huge!
To do that the part of the ring/sphere that is visible to us should cover half of the star disc!
the shell is pure fantasy, there are no materials that could keep it together it would collapse at the poles. Dyson never even meant a shell, but rather a swarm of satellites that make up a sphere.
How much material it would need depends. The goal is to collect energy and it's conceivable that we can create ultra lightweight panels in the future, so maybe a few kilograms per square km.
We could use mercury for materials.
A dyson sphere isn't supposed to cover a star completely.
Ayyyy
When you say fantasy you fail to consider just how far ahead a species like that would be. Even if we know what materials they might use(which we don't since we're like a thousand+ years behind them technology-wise) we can't comprehend what forces are at work in a beast like that. They could be able to harness gravity on an unimaginable scale to keep the poles from collapsing..
Maybe they started with rings of satellites until they hit that breakthrough that allowed a full shell for maximum power collection.
Charles Foster Kane
Rosebud
Seeing them as potential enemies and being hostile to an alien civilization with a technology that advanced doesn't sound like a good idea. I mean we would have to be cautious, of course, but seeing them like that in a defensive manner would be dumb.
This is an interesting topic that sparks imagination. Very cool stuff, even if you take aliens out of the equation.
and that's pure fantasy. sure maybe it's possible, but it's as meaningful to talk about as magic or religious books. even so though, what would be the point of building a shell? a swarm of satellites would be much easier and could still provide 100% coverage if layered. A dyson sphere as dyson originally imagined is something we could actually do, like we have the tech for it, so it makes sense if one were to build one you'd do it in the easiest most effective way, not with magical powers of the future.
Then at this point aren't aliens fantasy since we have no direct proof of any exobiology?
Why talk about any science fiction if we're going to say "well x is possible, but there's no proof so..."
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
This and the comet loud theories seem like the simplest explanation, but the Slate article posted on the last page kinda explain that we'd see a higher IR signature from the resultant dust. Read: no dust, not a planet collision.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Yes, but something that is bothering me is that energy cannot go away or be destroyed it is always converted. When light hits a cloud of dust the light absorbed is converted in heat, thus showing in the ir image. But why it would be different with a cloud of comets? If light is not being converted into heat what is happening? Sure it is not alien batteries...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Entanglement doesn't allow for transmission of faster than light information. Its like...
okay, goddamnit, I'm going to use the glove analogy. PhysicsGAF don't hate me
Okay so say I have a pair of gloves, and I separate them, put them in boxes, and send one of them halfway across the world to you. Because gloves always come in opposite pairs if you open the box and see you have the right handed glove, you know I have the left handed glove, without any communication between us.
"But that's dumb", you say, "if that's all quantum entanglement is, why are physicists so weirded out by it?"
Okay it is more complicated. Say instead that this pair of gloves is such that, while they're in the box, they exist in a simultaneous state of right and left handedness that only solidifies when one box is opened. And so when you open a box and find a left handed glove, you know the other is right handed, even though we also know that before you opened the box neither glove was technically either
But, and this is the crucial part, you can't control the handedness of the glove you open. If there was some way to make sure you opened a left handed glove you could ensure your friend got right hands whenever you liked, and set up some kind of crude binary system by sending hundreds and hundreds of gloves back and forth. But fundamentally you can't. There's no way to "make" a glove, or a particle in the real world, solidify as one particular state to force the other particle to become the other
(Also even if you could, each particle would be good for sending precisely one instance of information. You'd need to re-entangle them to reuse them. So if you had 100 particles with binary states you could send one 100 bit message...once. Any further communication would require entangling more particles on one end and physically sending them to the other)
it's much more interesting to use what we know about physics to come up with potential designs, that also allows us to look for those designs in the universe because we know their characteristics.
aliens aren't a fantasy because there are theories that explain how life could happen. there are gaps in the knowledge but not on the level that we need magical powers for it to work.
like i said before we already have the tech or at least the beginning of most tech needed to build a dyson swarm. once we have the tech for self replicating robots (that can build new robots, harvest materials and build solar panels) we are pretty much set to automatically build it. we don't even need full ai to do it.
opticalmace
Member
I didn't look at the Slate article or anything but it's easier to heat dust grains (to higher temperatures, and thus shorter IR wavelengths) than large(er) bodies like comets.
If you go to small enough "grains" that you're entering the molecular world (think ~100 atoms), it is common for them to never really be in thermal equilibrium, so you can heat them to high temperatures, like 1000K, regularly (versus maybe 200K for a comet).
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