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[SymbiantXenos]

Why do people knowingly commit suicide every time they teleport in Star Trek?. That's essentially what it is. Old you broken down, new you reconstructed somewhere else.

Strange thing to consider really.

 

[aceface]

Why do people knowingly commit suicide every time they teleport in Star Trek?. That's essentially what it is. Old you broken down, new you reconstructed somewhere else.

Strange thing to consider really.

That's how theoretically a transporter would have to work in real life. That's not how it works on Star Trek. It's science fiction.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Why do people knowingly commit suicide every time they teleport in Star Trek?. That's essentially what it is. Old you broken down, new you reconstructed somewhere else.

Strange thing to consider really.

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

 

[Wag]

Dark Matter has a better representation of what a real "teleporter" might look like.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

It's still an illusion of sorts though. A copy is still a copy even if they believe they aren't.

 

[Wag]

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Hey, man. You do that every second of every minute of every day. You think all your neurons and atoms are the same ones you woke up with? That guy is long dead. You're just a guy with his memories who looks a bit like him.

RIP in peace

 

[JeffZero]

Well, because they choose not to let the reality of what they're doing get the better of them.

 

[Pickman]

I wrote up a short story about a serial killer on a starfleet research vessel who murdered people who used the teleporters because they were just "puppets carved from starstuff" or something equally pretentious.

 

[Lagamorph]

Several episodes show that a person is aware/conscious during the transport process, at no point do they 'stop existing'.

 

[Wag]

Several episodes show that a person is aware/conscious during the transport process, at no point do they 'stop existing'.

 

[Jackpot]

That's how theoretically a transporter would have to work in real life. That's not how it works on Star Trek. It's science fiction.

No, that's expressly how it works in-universe.

A duplicate of Riker was produced when it failed to destroy the old one.

Replicators are based on transporter technology and use low-resolution molecular level patterns in stead of quantum level patterns.

 

[Fuchsdh]

No, that's expressly how it works in-universe.

A duplicate of Riker was produced when it failed to destroy the old one.

Replicators are based on transporter technology and use low-resolution molecular level patterns in stead of quantum level patterns.

The duplicate of Riker is created because they basically try and beam him through "scientific nonsense" which acted as a beam splitter. If you buy the "transporting is destroying a person and creating a clone" argument, it still "destroyed the original" in this specific instance, it just rematerialized two Rikers, one still on the planet and one on the ship.

 

[epmode]

You guys should really play Soma. It deals with this kind of thing.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/soma-ps4/

 

[inky]

They've probably accepted it s part of their lifestyle for the improvement of galactic society.

From what I remember not everyone was in love with the idea, but I imagine that's the decision you make once you decided to join Starfleet.

 

[itwasTuesday]

Riaa end goal. You thought copy protection was annoying now.
You wouldn't download a Riker.

 

[Htown]

Yeah, if people were destroyed in the transporter, this episode couldn't work. They explicitly leave Barkley in mid-transport for a long time, during which he actually consciously grabs something out of the matter stream and brings it back with him.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

No, that's expressly how it works in-universe.

Source for some episode where they talk about how they die each time they use a transporter? Other than McCoy or Barclay being scaredy-cats.

 

[rootbeerafloat]

Remember when Khan beamed from San Francisco to Kronos

 

[Koyuga]

This is one of those things that are best not to think about.

 

[aceface]

No, that's expressly how it works in-universe.

A duplicate of Riker was produced when it failed to destroy the old one.

Replicators are based on transporter technology and use low-resolution molecular level patterns in stead of quantum level patterns.

No, see that Barkley episode that has been referenced a couple of times. People are conscious and exist in the beam.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

Does it?

Does your pattern get physically get sent to your destination where you are then reconstituted or is your pattern converted to data and then sent over to the destination console to be constituted?

That's the key difference...

 

[ckohler]

No, that's expressly how it works in-universe.

A duplicate of Riker was produced when it failed to destroy the old one.

Replicators are based on transporter technology and use low-resolution molecular level patterns in stead of quantum level patterns.

Actually, no. Nothing is destroyed in-so-far as the atoms being dissipated. Star Trek transporters disassemble your original matter and then beams it (move the original) to the new location using pattern buffers and an "angular confinement beam." Then it remotely reassembles your matter stream into its original configuration. It does this at a quantum level, thus preserving consciousness.

In that Riker episode, his matter stream hit some weird radiation cloud that just happened to have the right kind of matter in the cloud necessary to create a duplicate while his original matter was bounced back up and reconstructed on the Enterprise when the computer assumed the transport was going to fail.

 

[DavidDesu]

Hey, man. You do that every second of every minute of every day. You think all your neurons and atoms are the same ones you woke up with? That guy is long dead. You're just a guy with his memories who looks a bit like him.

RIP in peace

I think about consciousness a lot and yeah I basically feel it's like this. You are just a collection of memories and experiences that accumulates more memories as time passes, trapped in a shitty organic body. I honestly look at my past and feel it was virtually a different person. Saying that I know, or I think I know that at least the person thinking now has been a continuous being all that time. If there really was a Star Trek style transporter I do feel as if I couldn't guarantee that sense of knowing it was still me that would be reconstructed at the other end..

 

[docyoe]

You guys should really play Soma. It deals with this kind of thing.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/soma-ps4/

yup agreed ....the game poses some really good philosophical questions....great game

 

[chuckddd]

Movie spoilers:

Spoiler

 

[prag16]

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

If a double is being created at the destination, How is the consciousness maintained or transferred? That's what nobody has ever explained to my satisfaction.

As far as I'm concerned you die, and an identical duplicate sets up shop in your place.

EDIT: solid The Prestige reference.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hey, man. You do that every second of every minute of every day. You think all your neurons and atoms are the same ones you woke up with? That guy is long dead. You're just a guy with his memories who looks a bit like him.

RIP in peace

The brain makes new neurons and neurons in the brain do die but in fact many if not most of the neurons we are born with are there until we die, brain cells are not like cells in other parts of the body.

 

[aceface]

How is the consciousness maintained or transferred? That's what nobody has ever explained to my satisfaction.

As far as I'm concerned you die, and an identical duplicate sets up shop in your place.

It's science fiction. They installed a consciousness preserving doohickey in their matter/energy converter. It doesn't have to make sense.

You can believe that but it goes against everything they've ever said and shown about transporters on hundreds of episodes.

 

[ckohler]

How is the consciousness maintained or transferred? That's what nobody has ever explained to my satisfaction.

As far as I'm concerned you die, and an identical duplicate sets up shop in your place.

According to Star Trek cannon, reassembling your brains atomic configuration at quantum resolution (so that every part of every atom is EXACTLY where it was) is enough to preserve consciousness. Recoding quantum level patterns of any object requires massive amounts of processing power and memory, even in the 23rd century, which is why transporters are limited in range and capacity. Huge parts of the ships are dedicated to this function.

In fact, transporters used for non-living things like cargo are typically designed for only molecular level resolution to cut down on power and such.

 

[Htown]

It's science fiction. They installed a consciousness preserving doohickey in their matter/energy converter. It doesn't have to make sense.

You can believe that but it goes against everything they've ever said and shown about transporters on hundreds of episodes.

Yeah, Enterprise even had a not-great episode where they brought the inventor of the transporter on board, and he explicitly said that the idea that you aren't the same person on the other side was ridiculous.

 

[vivftp]

Yeah, Enterprise even had a not-great episode where they brought the inventor of the transporter on board, and he explicitly said that the idea that you aren't the same person on the other side was ridiculous.

Dang, beaten cause I was getting the quote on mobile

EMORY: I'll never forget the protests when the transporter was first approved for bio-matter.
DANICA: Oh, God. Here we go.
EMORY: People said it was unsafe, that it caused brain cancer, psychosis, and even sleep disorders. And then there was all that metaphysical chatter about whether or not the person who arrived after the transport was the same person who left, and not some weird copy.
TUCKER: Which would make all of us copies.
EMORY: I had to fight all of that nonsense, and I'm not going to tell you there weren't costs. I'm living proof of that, but I won. Mankind is better off. Makes everything I've fought for worthwhile.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

No, see that Barkley episode that has been referenced a couple of times. People are conscious and exist in the beam.

See Hoshi Sato in Enterprise: Vanishing Point

She lived in a collapsing reality for days that existed within the transport beam which lasted minutes IRL

 

[vivftp]

It's also worth pointing out that if transporters are matter duplicators then what's to stop someone from duplicating all the gold pressed latinum they could ever want?

Nope, they're not duplicators.

 

[prag16]

Yeah, Enterprise even had a not-great episode where they brought the inventor of the transporter on board, and he explicitly said that the idea that you aren't the same person on the other side was ridiculous.

In Star Trek canon fine. But the philosophical question in the real world (if this technology ever came to pass) would be extremely difficult. The "copy" would feel like they're the original, and it may be impossible to actually prove either way.

 

[SolidusDave]

There's that one episode where they find an old ship and some crew members are still stuck in the ship's transporter database. They finish the beam process and bring them back into physical form.

IIRC they were not conscious for all these years (and remain their original age of course) and basically rested on the ship's servers.
To me, that implied they were stored as data and not their original matter. Though I guess you can think of the transporters "buffers" as a pure matter chamber or something.

It's also worth pointing out that if transporters are matter duplicators then what's to stop someone from duplicating all the gold pressed latinum they could ever want?

Nope, they're not duplicators.

Isn't that how they make their instant food etc. ? Though maybe that's just some super advanced 3D printer as I can't answer why they don't use it for the latinum either.

 

[Neff]

Michael Crichton's Timeline actually discusses this, as they build a teleporter which disassembles you at a molecular level and reassembles you elsewhere, creating matter at the destination. The protagonists are fully aware of how the tech works, and that their old selves will 'die' but they all happily jump in and use it anyway.

It's essentially the same as being ok with someone making a copy of you, and agreeing to let them shoot you in the head while your copy lives on, which is a hard thing to suspend disbelief for.

 

[Volimar]

Actually, no. Nothing is destroyed in-so-far as the atoms being dissipated. Star Trek transporters disassemble your original matter and then beams it (move the original) to the new location using pattern buffers and an "angular confinement beam." Then it remotely reassembles your matter stream into its original configuration. It does this at a quantum level, thus preserving consciousness.

In that Riker episode, his matter stream hit some weird radiation cloud that just happened to have the right kind of matter in the cloud necessary to create a duplicate while his original matter was bounced back up and reconstructed on the Enterprise when the computer assumed the transport was going to fail.

Yep yep.

I remember one of the novels dealing with this. In Federation, Zephram Cochrane is horrified to find that he had been transported because he feared he had been "copied" and the sick bay personnel tells him that that's not how transporters work. It's not canon, but it cleared it up for me.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

There's that one episode where they find an old ship and some crew members are still stuck in the ship's transporter database. They finish the beam process and bring them back into physical form.

IIRC they were not conscious for all these years (and remain their original age of course) and basically rested on the ship's servers.
To me, that implied they were stored as data and not their original matter. Though I guess you can think of the transporters "buffers" as a pure matter chamber or something.




Isn't that how they make their instant food etc. ? Though maybe that's just some super advanced 3D printer as I can't answer why they don't use it for the latinum either.

That was the episode where Scotty was found by the Enterprise-D. I think he had to hotwire the system to save people because normal buffers would degrade over time.

 

[Shadynasty]

Why do people knowingly commit suicide every time they teleport in Star Trek?. That's essentially what it is. Old you broken down, new you reconstructed somewhere else.

Strange thing to consider really.

Is that you Bones?

 

[Volimar]

That was the episode where Scotty was found by the Enterprise-D. I think he had to hotwire the system to save people because normal buffers would degrade over time.

And in fact the other person's pattern was too degraded to save them

 

[excelsiorlef]

There's that one episode where they find an old ship and some crew members are still stuck in the ship's transporter database. They finish the beam process and bring them back into physical form.

IIRC they were not conscious for all these years (and remain their original age of course) and basically rested on the ship's servers.
To me, that implied they were stored as data and not their original matter. Though I guess you can think of the transporters "buffers" as a pure matter chamber or something.

That said they found Scotty in a transporter buffer and he definitely had aged though not the 75 years that had passed... So that raises different questions.

 

[Volimar]

That said they found Scotty in a transporter buffer and he definitely had aged though not the 75 years... So that raises different questions.

I don't remember that part.

 

[ckohler]

In Star Trek canon fine. But the philosophical question in the real world (if this technology ever came to pass) would be extremely difficult. The "copy" would feel like they're the original, and it may be impossible to actually prove either way.

Again, "copy" suggests different matter is used to build another you. That's not how it works. Your original matter is deconstructed and then reassembled in a new place.

To me, that implied they were stored as data and not their original matter. Though I guess you can think of the transporters "buffers" as a pure matter chamber or something.

That's exactly how it works. Each transporter system's pattern buffers are like big, empty spaces where your disassembled streams of matter are stored prior to transmission.

Isn't that how they make their instant food etc. ? Though maybe that's just some super advanced 3D printer as I can't answer why they don't use it for the latinum either.

Actually, replicators use "stock matter" that is physically stored on the ship. It's a compound that is made up of common atoms which are efficiently demateralized and then reassembled into whatever pattern you request. Again, only at molecular resolution. The matter streams for the replicatiors move through the ship using "wave guide conduits" so the can cut down on the energy costs of actually transporting it.

 

[SolidusDave]

Ok you guys are right, Also, the biggest giveaway for Star Trek teleporters working different than "real" ones is that they are never used as a plot device to bring people back to life.

"oh no, the Borg assimilated Picard!"
"yawn, ok, Transporter room? Can you please load the last Captain backup from our beam this morning?"

It's a one shot device.


btw am I the only own who would be fine using teleporters even if they were a philosophical suicide machine? I mean, I will never notice the difference.

 

[McLovin]

I never got why they didnt just save DNA patterns in case someone died.

 

[Indrid Cold1]

Remember when Khan beamed from San Francisco to Kronos

Thanks for reminding me about that. Those bullshit films.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't remember that part.

Well I figured because the actor had but really I guess hadn't as he was still doing TOS era movies in 91.

So I take that back he didn't age.

 

[DBT85]

I never got why they didnt just save DNA patterns in case someone died.

If all you have is DNA then all you have is a lump of meat.

 

[McLovin]

If all you have is DNA then all you have is a lump of meat.

They made a full copy of Ricker. So obviously not.