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[Gotchaye]

I think the crucial difference is how the transporter works, if it moves your very molecules and atoms though space via the stream and reconstitutes you then yes absolutely it's still you. However if it just sends your information as data to the destination and then that end constitutes you then you're dead and a new you takes over.

I don't really understand this perspective. I expect that most people have this sense that to still "be you", both the atoms and their relationships to each other can't change in transit. So teleportation-via-wormhole is going to seem to them to be safe, since it's just like walking through a door. You're bending space such that regular movement is still getting you somewhere far away. What Juneau Joe and I are saying is that really we have no reason to think that regular movement is safe - it's weird to think that continuity of consciousness is preserved by keeping the same atoms and relationships. It's not that teleportation isn't a lot like killing you, it's that the same thing happens when you're sitting still.

The idea is something like that the universe is a string of programmable Christmas lights. You can create the illusion that there's a single light moving around by having them light up in sequence, but that doesn't reflect what's really happening. If I send two light-trajectories at each other I can make it look like they meet and bounce off or pass through, but there's no right answer here as to which has happened. The lights that you're watching move around are not actual entities; they just look that way. Actually what you're seeing is just a pattern of behavior in a very large number of mostly-unlit lights. And when I make it look like two lights are bouncing off each other you can't point to one of the two moving lights afterwards and say that that one corresponds to the one that was on the left in the beginning.

But you're seeming to say that you preserve consciousness just by using the same atoms. I can chop you up and as long as I carefully write down where each atom was as I remove and bag it, I can put you back together and you'll come back just like waking up from a night's sleep, and that will be in every sense the same person that went into the transporter. I don't understand what's motivating this other than a belief that souls attach to specific atoms (and as Joe has noted it's a little odd, physically, to talk about "specific atoms"). Surely I've disrupted whatever pattern is responsible for you being you, and when I put your body back together it's a new person with your memories, etc. Why does the identity of your constituent atoms matter, especially when to the best of our knowledge atoms are more like lit Christmas lights in a programmable string rather than discrete entities that move around?

 

[Parch]

Science GAF would probably have a more informed opinion, but I've had discussions about how transporter, replicator, and holodeck science fiction is actually more plausible than warp speed. Or how stargate technology is more likely than any form of FTL travel.

So the TV show Stargate is more realistic than Star Trek or Star Wars.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Consciousness is an illusion.

Do you know for sure that when you wake up in the morning that will actually be the same you and not just a new "you" with your memories?

 

[Jackpot]

Because who gives a fuck? if I'm being reconstructed in the exact same way at another location, same memories and everything, why should I care?

Exactly, so why should I care? It's still me.

A copy is not the original. You don't experience anything from that point on. You are dead. But a perfect duplicate that gives identical responses to the same stimuli carries on instead. You don't experience anything the same way you can't experience what your natural identical twin would feel.

To put it another way, would you still not care if the destruction of your original body occurred an hour after the transport instead of simultaneously?

I see the failure to grasp the above so much in these discussions (regardless of whether it's the case in Star Trek or not) that it would be seriously troubling if the world introduced such a technology.


edit:

Anyway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZt6eU5REN8

Here's the (not quite as good) Deep Space Nine version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cCTgRax94o

 

[weepingangelz]

Exactly, so why should I care? It's still me.

It's not you. It's a clone of you. "You" and your "soul" died the minute the process started and in its place is now an imposter that thinks everything is fine and dandy. Soul didn't transfer. New soul was created.

 

[Yarbskoo]

It's not you. It's a clone of you. "You" and your "soul" died the minute the process started and in its place is now an imposter that thinks everything is fine and dandy. Soul didn't transfer. New soul was created.

Or maybe your "soul" is just an abstract fabrication to contextualize a combination of memory, brain chemistry, and sensory stimulus, and doesn't need to be transferred because it doesn't really exist.

 

[Wag]

No, he's not working on his tan.

In Dark Matter there are clones created on the other end and your consciousness is uploaded into it while you remain in a suspended state. If it dies before the information is uploaded back all that information is lost.

 

[John Kowalski]

 

[Jebusman]

Deepest lore.

 

[Joey Fox]

Consciousness is an illusion.

Do you know for sure that when you wake up in the morning that will actually be the same you and not just a new "you" with your memories?

Science may prove our consciousness is fake, and knowing wouldn't change my decisions any.

It's enough that I am experiencing consciousness now to pursue improving the experience.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Science may prove our consciousness is fake, and knowing wouldn't change my decisions any.

It's enough that I am experiencing consciousness now to pursue improving the experience.

And what could improve the experience more than traveling large distances in only a few seconds?

 

[DarkKyo]

And what could improve the experience more than traveling large distances in only a few seconds?

I guess the main difference there is an interruption in the stream, right?
Even if my current self will be overwritten by a new self, moment to moment, the stream exists so that my current self will collapse into the collective that is a continuation of my original self and brain. Even if the result of a teleportation would feel the same to the new me as daily life and consciousness in general does, doesn't knowledge of the continuation of this stream preserve the illusion?

 

[YourMaster]

There are a lot of people here that should never sleep again.

 

[Yarbskoo]

There are a lot of people here that should never sleep again.

Yeah, when you wake up after sleep, not only can your body change quite a bit, but the world around you progresses several hours without your knowledge. Assuming everything goes well, your body is reproduced exactly during a transportation process, it takes much less time, and we know travelers remain conscious for at least some of the time during the event.

 

[DarkKyo]

Yeah, when you wake up after sleep, not only can your body change quite a bit, but the world around you progresses several hours without your knowledge.

This has nothing to do with loss of self though. There are massive amounts of information in the world you miss out on while you're conscious(not asleep) just due to remoteness.

 

[Liberty4all]

No, he's not working on his tan.

In Dark Matter there are clones created on the other end and your consciousness is uploaded into it while you remain in a suspended state. If it dies before the information is uploaded back all that information is lost.

Love Dark Matter. The clone transport idea made alot of sense to me.

 

[Carcetti]

I'd say a Trek human would probably find solace in the fact that consciousness exists apart from the physical body, as evidenced by wholly energetic lifeforms such as Q, Trelane, etc etc etc. The consiousness part could well transfer in the transfer process.

 

[Yarbskoo]

This has nothing to do with loss of self though. There are massive amounts of information in the world you miss out on while you're conscious(not asleep) just due to remoteness.

This is true. It's more of a loss of time experienced.

Of course, not everyone experiences time at the same rate anyway, depending on where you are and how fast you're traveling.

 

[YourMaster]

This has nothing to do with loss of self though. There are massive amounts of information in the world you miss out on while you're conscious(not asleep) just due to remoteness.

The point is that there is no factual definition of self, and that is all a mental and social construct. Why does having the 'string of consciousness' be interrupted during teleportation matter when it does not during sleep?
Even if the brain changes slightly during teleportation, how is that any difference from how it changes every second, by the simple biological processes, by learning new things, or even in big cases like drinking alcohol or having a stroke?

What helpful in answering this question is not in trying to define what parts of your brain/body actually house the 'you'. More importantly is answering 'why do you matter, what do you find important in life, what is essential about you'?
And then, does being teleported affect any of this and how?

 

[Langdon Alger]

Consciousness is an illusion.

Do you know for sure that when you wake up in the morning that will actually be the same you and not just a new "you" with your memories?

I'm experiencing consciousness now. It can't be an illusion.

 

[DarkKyo]

What helpful in answering this question is not in trying to define what parts of your brain/body actually house the 'you'. More importantly is answering 'why do you matter, what do you find important in life, what is essential about you'?
And then, does being teleported affect any of this and how?

I absolutely understand what you're saying and that there's no true distinction between the physical you-->you and the teleported you---------->you. At that point it just comes down to a spooky feeling of knowing your current body is about to end in order to make a new you compared to your body booting up a slightly newer version of you within the same physical continuity. If you can get past that then more power to you, but I couldn't.

 

[Yarbskoo]

I'm experiencing consciousness now. It can't be an illusion.

A reflection is an illusion too, but how can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?

Maybe all experience is an illusion.

 

[lazygecko]

The Trouble with Transporters

 

[Relceroi]

In teleportation, instead of the current state of my existence progressing linearly from one point to the next, the causal chain of my existence seems to break and, depending on how you feel about consciousness, essentially expire altogether. I, which is to be understood as the collective whole that exists at this particular time and space, do not continue on to being the other. Sleep is different from this because, while no one is (fully?) conscious while sleeping, the brain is not off and does still exist all the while. Overall I feel like the concept of consciousness might be making the topic unnecessarily complicated in one way or another. Consciousnes is just "me" being aware of everything that happens to the illusionary I. At least that is how I see it right at this moment.

But as others have noted, Star Trek might have some weird shenanigans going on in the background in that the characters don’t stop existing linearly during the teleportation process.

 

[Faiz]

.


btw am I the only own who would be fine using teleporters even if they were a philosophical suicide machine? I mean, I will never notice the difference.

You would also never notice the difference if someone killed you in your sleep but I'm assuming you aren't ok with that.

 

[Octavianus]

A copy is not the original. You don't experience anything from that point on. You are dead. But a perfect duplicate that gives identical responses to the same stimuli carries on instead. You don't experience anything the same way you can't experience what your natural identical twin would feel.

To put it another way, would you still not care if the destruction of your original body occurred an hour after the transport instead of simultaneously?

I see the failure to grasp the above so much in these discussions (regardless of whether it's the case in Star Trek or not) that it would be seriously troubling if the world introduced such a technology.


edit:


Here's the (not quite as good) Deep Space Nine version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cCTgRax94o

I still don't understand why that distinction matters. I don't care if it's the original version of me or a duplicate. It's still me.

It's not you. It's a clone of you. "You" and your "soul" died the minute the process started and in its place is now an imposter that thinks everything is fine and dandy. Soul didn't transfer. New soul was created.

Ah my soul. Right..

You would also never notice the difference if someone killed you in your sleep but I'm assuming you aren't ok with that.

That depends. Would I be replaced with a perfect duplicate immediately after that has all my experience from up untill that point?
Because if so....

 

[SolidusDave]

You would also never notice the difference if someone killed you in your sleep but I'm assuming you aren't ok with that.

In that moment? Yes? I would be dead and would never know as My existence has ended. Doesn't mean I would be ok with someone killing me in any way.

The difference is in teleportation I wouldn't die permanently. As others have mentioned, it would be less of a change than sleeping.

The only requirement for me would be that my current self is destroyed instantly without pain in the transmission process. That's more for ethical reasons though as again I would not know once I'm the guy on the other side.
Oh and they are not allowed to create more copies from my data.

 

[Lev]

How is it any different than sleeping? I mean, yeah you die but your death is entirely irrelevant. You continue you from point A to point A, again.

When you sleep, you are still alive (you are unconscious instead of being wakeful) but in a different state of consciousness. You can think about consciousness being on a continuum. You go through different stages, like when you fall asleep. Like when you are half-awake, you are somewhat conscious but not fully alert.

 

[Htown]

But as others have noted, Star Trek might have some weird shenanigans going on in the background in that the characters don’t stop existing linearly during the teleportation process.

We have onscreen confirmation of people having experiences during transport, both in the Barkley episode of TNG mentioned earlier and going back to the original series.

 

[SolidusDave]

When you sleep, you are still alive (you are unconscious instead of being wakeful) but in a different state of consciousness. You can think about consciousness being on a continuum. You go through different stages, like when you fall asleep. Like when you are half-awake, you are somewhat conscious but not fully alert.

But what's the difference between being unconscious for a while and being not conscious during a teleport transfer.
Apart from the warm fuzzy feeling of saying you never died just because your body was still functional while you are completely out.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I still don't understand why that distinction matters. I don't care if it's the original version of me or a duplicate. It's still me.

So you'd be ok if I cloned you, put your clone on stasis, shot you in the head dead and then woke up your clone to resume your life.

 

[lifeexpectancy]

This whole notion about being assembled from the "same atoms" is just silly. There's no such thing as "the same atoms." Any two atoms of the same isotope of carbon are identical to the point that you can't even claim they're distinct. It's like asking if a math equation is using "the same 3s" that you used in a different problem. There aren't distinct 3s. There's just 3. There aren't distinct carbon-12 atoms. There's just carbon-12.

Not really, no.  At the quantum level, individual atoms of the same element can have different subatomic states.  Different spins on their quarks (up quark vs down quark), etc.  Now I'm not a quantum physicist, so I don't understand things when we get down below the level of electrons/protons/neutrons. I think even multiple-PhD holders get confused when the physics gets wacky down on that scale, but saying that one C12 atom is identical to the next isn't true, as far as I understand it anyway.

Or maybe I am just misunderstanding what little I've read on quantum physics. But if I'm right, and teleporters store your pattern at its exact quantum state at the time of teleportation, then yes, it very much DOES matter 'which atoms' are used to re-materialize you.

(and as Joe has noted it's a little odd, physically, to talk about "specific atoms")

If my point above stands and I'm not misunderstanding quantum physics, then this isnt true. Specific atoms would be important, or more accurately the exact quantum states within each atom should matter.

Also if matter can become pure energy (as in the Q, assuming they are energy-based beings?) then having teleporters break you down to the exact quantum states of every quatum particle within each individual atom to create a very specific energy signature unique to you and your existence of 'self', then this could become a very important aspect in the continuity ofna person's consciousness/soul, at least in Star Trek's canon.

 

[RoadHazard]

Their consciousness is never interrupted. They remain a single person. Not dead and reborn.

How do you actually know that? Obviously the new copy would believe he's the same person as the old copy, because he has all the same memories etc. But the old person (or his consciousness, rather) might be gone the instant the teleport happens, with no actual transfer of consciousness to the new body. How could anyone on the outside tell?

 

[RoadHazard]

So you'd be ok if I cloned you, put your clone on stasis, shot you in the head dead and then woke up your clone to resume your life.

Yeah, this is essentially the same. Two identical persons with identical memories, who act the same and both think they are the "real" person. But obviously only the original is. Your consciousness is still in that body, not the clone. When you die, you're gone. Your consciousness isn't gonna magically transfer to the clone body. Now compress this series of events down into a much shorter timespan, where the clone is created and the original is killed pretty much simultaneously, and you've got teleportation. And you are dead, your consciousness gone. The clone that now exists has your memories, so he will tell everyone "there was no interruption of consciousness", but really the original consciousness is gone forever.

 

[Jackpot]

How do you actually know that? Obviously the new copy would believe he's the same person as the old copy, because he has all the same memories etc. But the old person (or his consciousness, rather) might be gone the instant the teleport happens, with no actual transfer of consciousness to the new body. How could anyone on the outside tell?

And that's the issue with Thomas Riker. A consciousness that didn't exist before has sprung into existence and believes itself to be a seamless continuation of the previous one. Even with techno-babble about signal splitters, creating two of them means there's a brand new "stream" that didn't exist before and therefore can't be a direct continuation.

 

[Grinchy]

If they can warp space itself in order to move great distances in shorter time, then why can't we just believe that the teleporter is actually just warping space and your body goes from point A to point B without ever being broken down?

 

[lifeexpectancy]

If they can warp space itself in order to move great distances in shorter time, then why can't we just believe that the teleporter is actually just warping space and your body goes from point A to point B without ever being broken down?

We could believe that if that is how they explained it, but in the star trek universe, that isnt how transporter technology is explained. I personally prefer that version of teleportation, mainly because there isnt anything on the receiving end to reconstitute the matter stream or whatever.

 

[RiggyRob]

I still don't understand why that distinction matters. I don't care if it's the original version of me or a duplicate. It's still me.

Play SOMA.

 

[Tobor]

You would think they would use the transporters for all kinds of medical and cosmetic procedures. They can remove things mid stream. They remove guns out of people's hands. Why not tweak the people themselves in the buffer. Change your hair, or instant nose job, or remove cancerous cells. The options are limitless!

 

[Emitan]

You would think they would use the transporters for all kinds of medical and cosmetic procedures. They can remove things mid stream. They remove guns out of people's hands. Why not tweak the people themselves in the buffer. Change your hair, or instant nose job, or remove cancerous cells. The options are limitless!

I swear there's some episode of TNG where someone implies they actually do this. A major character had some sort of infection or something and they mentioned they coudn't transport it away for some reason which implies its a thing they can normally do.

 

[Tobor]

I swear there's some episode of TNG where someone implies they actually do this. A major character had some sort of infection or something and they mentioned they coudn't transport it away for some reason which implies its a thing they can normally do.

I think you're right! That sounds familiar. The technical possibilities are limitless, but it's probably safe to assume that manipulating the body through transportation would be legally off limits, like genetic manipulation. Maybe removing illnesses is allowed.

 

[SolidusDave]

Play SOMA.

Not the same thing. The important distinction is killing off the "original" in the same process that transfers/generates the "copy". No creepy shit or tough decisions to make.

 

[Lev]

But what's the difference between being unconscious for a while and being not conscious during a teleport transfer.
Apart from the warm fuzzy feeling of saying you never died just because your body was still functional while you are completely out.

My guesses:

Conscious during the teleportation: Teleportation doesn't look too fast compared to how fast our brains process sensory input, so I think you would notice the lose of your five senses until you lose them completely. You would truly enter a state of nonethingness in which you would feel and remember nothing as you are being turned into a beam of energy, before being reassembled into yourself again.

So I don't think that the state of unconsciousness would be too different, since being dematerialized leads to the same state.

 

[Correctomundo]

The point I'm trying to make is this:
Either you believe that individual fundamental pieces of matter (atoms, quarks, molecules) have distinct identities from each other, in which case you're definitely not the same person you were just months ago, as atoms have been cycled out of your body and been replaced.

Or! You accept that fundamental particles don't have distinct individual identities and therefore, all consciousness is nothing but patterns in matter. In which case, you are definitely not the same person you were just months ago, as your atoms are now in a different configuration.

Either way, there's no way to say that you're the same person you were before, and we haven't even needed to invent teleporters!

I've often used the car analogy. If I have a car, say, a Ferrari, and I replace a part here and there over the course of a number of years, until eventually, I have replaced every part of the original car with entirely new parts, it's still "my Ferrari", not "my new Ferrari".

Isn't this basis the entire concept behind the human revolution that the Deus Ex games touch on? That the augmented are somehow less human or not whole human, and that eventually replacing parts makes the augmented person not even themselves, and therefore, not worthy of rights for not being human.

It goes straight to Voyager.

Damn. I liked Voyager, but this is the perfect reply.

It's not you. It's a clone of you. "You" and your "soul" died the minute the process started and in its place is now an imposter that thinks everything is fine and dandy. Soul didn't transfer. New soul was created.

Ah, there's your problem. There is no such thing as a soul. Boom, problem solved.

 

[zeemumu]

You guys should really play Soma. It deals with this kind of thing.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/soma-ps4/

That's true.

Spoiler

In their world you have a 50/50 chance of being the one who's transferred over.

 

[Extollere]

What if the molecules are broken down, but physically transport themselves at the speed of light to a new location wherein they resemble?

Still you and not a copy right?

At the very least this would be like drying and being instantly revived.

 

[LumpOfCole]

Since everyone dies, going out by misunderstanding teleporters would be absolute best way to die.

1) No pain, it's intantaneous.
2) Unless you're a Barclay, you don't expect anything to go wrong so there's no dread leading up to the moment.
3) You don't deprive your loved ones of your existence; to them, you simply transported.

I know it's morbid but there would be absolutely no better way to go out.

 

[funkystudent]

Since everyone dies, going out by misunderstanding teleporters would be absolute best way to die.

1) No pain, it's intantaneous.
2) Unless you're a Barclay, you don't expect anything to go wrong so there's no dread leading up to the moment.
3) You don't deprive your loved ones of your existence; to them, you simply transported.

I know it's morbid but there would be absolutely no better way to go out.

I dunno.

You could also end up like that guy from the start of the motion picture and be slowly torn apart

 

[MC Safety]

Since everyone dies, going out by misunderstanding teleporters would be absolute best way to die.

1) No pain, it's intantaneous.
2) Unless you're a Barclay, you don't expect anything to go wrong so there's no dread leading up to the moment.
3) You don't deprive your loved ones of your existence; to them, you simply transported.

I know it's morbid but there would be absolutely no better way to go out.

Two people die in a transporter malfunction in Star Trek, The Motionless Picture. The film seems to indicate their deaths were not entirely painless.

Starfleet even says something to the effect of, what we got back thankfully didn't live very long.

 

[LumpOfCole]

I dunno.

You could also end up like that guy from the start of the motion picture and be slowly torn apart

That's a malfunction though. Tragic but it wasn't supposed to happen, like the Star Trek equivalent of the odds of going out in a commercial plane crashing.