I THULSA DOOM I
Banned
Odd? Since both the original games were TPS and not built around ADS?
Star Wars Battlefront will not have ironsights
- Thread starter Enter the Dragon Punch
- Start date
Odd? Since both the original games were TPS and not built around ADS?
CarbonFire
Member
What I actually want is BF2143, but since DICE is in modern military purgatory with the Battlefield series, this is the next best thing. And Planetside 2 IS fun, but its a different animal than Battlefield.
Star Wars is a pretty cool universe, and Battlefield is a fun gaming "framework" that works for more than just the modern military setting. Putting the two together isn't really all that far fetched.
Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to play this game, and don't mind that it's different than just BF + Star Wars. But I wouldn't have said no to that either.
This type of statement has been made a thousand times in this thread and it drives me bonkers. I will fully admit I don't play COD so I can't comment on that but I've played a number of "ADS" shooters and I've played far more "non-ADS" shooters and this type of myopic vision makes my brain hurt.
Apparently, ADS requires lower levels of situational/positional awareness, reduces the need for efficient/smart movement, encourages slow/plodding play, rewards whoever sees/hits first, doesn't require you to track moving targets, and doesn't allow skill to be the determining factor; on the other hand, games without ADS are better because they force you to have higher situational/positional awareness, require you to be more active/moving, encourages fast-paced and aggressive play, isn't an instant win for the person who fires the first shot, requires you to actively track moving targets, and places a huge reliance on skill.
What's being described here isn't a difference between games without ADS and games with ADS, but a difference between arena shooters (and the odd non-arena shooter with a similar pace, e.g TF2) and not-arena shooters. The reason the oft-cited examples of UT, Q2, Q3A forced awareness, forced active movement, and encouraged aggressive play were because they were arena shooters. Maps tended to have a lot of z-axis movement, you were actively trying to manage and control access to guns and powerups to keep your opponent at a disadvantage, and you had to hunt them down and pursue them to ensure that happened -- and if you were the guy getting wrecked, you had to try and juke him so you could get a good weapon to try and get the jump and turn the tide. The game dictated the play, not the way you shoot.
People can't sit there and seriously say that "he who shoots first wins" or "aiming is easymode" is a trait of games with ADS and then turn around and point to games like this:
casual game for babbies
Its amazing people actually enjoyed shooters back when you can move at a decent speed AND aim at the same time. Where your projectiles actually went where you were aiming. Like damn, the struggle was real back then
Hitscan instant (or two-hit) kill weapons, woo. UT99 had the sniper rifle (and instagib), and Q2/Q3 had the railgun. Hell, even if you were shit with those, you still had things like the UT99 pulse/minigun to omnomnom someone without having to lead. Assuming you could put a dot on a head and compensate for latency (which was, generally, high then than it is now), the guy who shot first won. And then since you won, you just had to pay attention to sounds and know the map to hunt them down and keep putting bullets or railgun rounds into their cranium before they could pick up a weapon. But no, clearly an ADS game where you're dealing with projectile travel time and needing to control burst to manage recoil and land a series of headshots (instead of one) requires so much less skill that one can call it "casual game for babbies". If you played Rocket Arena in any of those games, it pretty much devolved into who gets the first hitscan kill.
I would argue the style of game dictates far more about how it plays than the aiming mechanic -- but even then, all of those games require all of the aforementioned elements. You need high awareness in both. You need to have good map knowledge and movement. You need to play at the right tempo, both where moving/camping and playing offensive/defensive are concerned. You need to be able to track moving targets. You need to get the first shot -- and you need to have the skill to make sure you don't fuck up when you have it. How those traits are used will, of course differ.
Some games need ADS. Some don't. Either option impacts the gunplay of the game, as does the genre/nature of the shooter itself. UT99 with ADS would suck. Battlefield with only hipfire would suck. Battlefront can and should do without - stick to the zoom.
joecanada
Member
various games do what you are referring to in better and worse scenarios. the gun shouldn't "suddenly move" as in warping, most games show a transition where you bring the gun up to your eye level.
I'm not sure what you are referring to about "barely move when fired" I am guessing recoil, Battlefield actually does this very well, you can use an ACW-R but unless you are burst firing you won't hit crap. also you will always beat someone in a firefight when burst firing if they panic and try to hold the trigger down from med. - long range.
I am talking immersion here, not so much realism. But again some people love the no-regen , one life modes in FPS too, so it's not always "recovering in 5 seconds and sprinting away" either.
of course some realism has to be suspended to have mutliple lives, but the immersion doesn't have to suffer for it while you are actually in that moment.
Anyway I loved warhawk, I am not against these types I just feel the immersion more when sniping down a scope....
harriet the spy
Member
In any case, I hope the game has a mode where both sides are ridiculously imbalanced in numbers (ten stormtroopers per rebel), but where it is _impossible_ to aim with a stormtrooper, ADS or not.
From the gameplay demos there was an overheat meter on the UI.
It really isn't
I can understand people championing this as a good thing because it remains faithful to the original games... But quite honestly... The originals gameplay didn't really age very well...
So that bring said, what would be your thoughts if they spiced up the gameplay by retaining rolls and adding a cover system? Too much change?
Also a bit off topic but has it been confirmed as to whether or not Clone Wars era battles will be present? Or is this strictly going to be about simulating battles between the Rebellion vs. Empire?
So that bring said, what would be your thoughts if they spiced up the gameplay by retaining rolls and adding a cover system? Too much change?
Also a bit off topic but has it been confirmed as to whether or not Clone Wars era battles will be present? Or is this strictly going to be about simulating battles between the Rebellion vs. Empire?
VibratingDonkey
Member
Heard it through the grapevine that there's a significantly reduced focus on destruction. Unlike casual babby aiming, I think that would differentiate BF from BF in a bad way. Did they have to cut it because they didn't have time? Because if it's a design decision then that's a real shit one. Destruction is a fun, dynamic gameplay layer. Everyone agrees. Why would you reducemove that? It's not incongruous with the Star War universe at all. Things blow up in it, I've seen it.
Someone tell me it's a lie.
Someone tell me it's a lie.
Mass Effect
Member
Glad to be hearing more good things about this game.
EdibleExplosives
Member
Yusssss. Surprised that a shooter releasing nowadays doesn't have ironsights.
Welfare
Member
Not all games need Battlefield destruction.
I'm okay with thisso guess. Seeing how completely irrelevant Clone Wars era will be now, I dont think I'll ever have the chance to mow down armies of droids in HD but oh well... I guess it's understandable
Green Mamba
Member
Star Wars Battlefront is an already established series. Complaints that it's not taking things from Battlefield seem to be completely missing the point. Battlefront isn't Battlefield.
the_batman
Banned
isn't Battlefront basically Battlefield with a Star Wars theme? Conquest is the main focus of both.
Im_So_Pringles
Member
Thank the fucking lord for this. I don't hate ADS, but I ALWAYS like a game's shooting and movement mechanics more if the game doesn't have it. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for me. This news alone makes my hype shoot through the roof! Can't wait for this game!!!
Two completely different things. At least those of us praising "old-school game mechanics" know the game is going to play better because of them.
Edit 2: You know what, I'm gonna go play some UT99 online right now. Down with ADS!
Two completely different things. At least those of us praising "old-school game mechanics" know the game is going to play better because of them.
Edit 2: You know what, I'm gonna go play some UT99 online right now. Down with ADS!
the_batman
Banned
i feel like all the people praising the old school game mechanics are going to complaining when EA reveals the season pass and other paid dlc.
StrangeTaco
Member
If they keep the consistent quality of content they have for all their previous Premium packages then I don't see why. I'm glad to see they're keeping true to the original Battlefront mechanics and will in all likelihood buy Premium when it drops.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
I'm trying to stay pessimistic, but the more news I hear the more my brain is going
Only on GAF do you have people trying their damndest to remain pessimistic.
Candescence
Member
Good news. Less iron sighting and ADS, the better, really doesn't suit Star Wars, methinks.
I don't think the presence or absence of a gameplay mechanic is necessarily what makes a given game feel dated and I don't think there's any intrinsic reason having no ADS when playing in first person will make it feel old.
I think they should keep the rolls, but don't add a cover system. Cover wouldn't fit with the style of game that Battlefront is and would slow down the game too much.
Maybe it's just me but Battlefront has always been a TPS to me, regardless of the first person option. First person never felt quite right.
ROUGE_BLOCK
Member
You are still going to aim through scopes when in first person mode, and if it is like the pandemic games a sniper like cross-hair will take up the screen. Halo does the same thing, but here you will be switching between third to first person on the fly. Makes it a different dynamic.
Not really a big deal at all, I don't know why this has stirred any kind of debate. Like why is this a thing?
Not really a big deal at all, I don't know why this has stirred any kind of debate. Like why is this a thing?
I don't know. What the hell is "reducemove?" Why are you making up words and using double negatives?
AwakenedCloud
Member
Maybe I'm not remembering things correctly, but Halo 4 didn't have ADS.
Good news.
ADS is not an ansolute improvement, it isn't an evolution. It's a different mechanic that changes the entire feel of a game.
It's a shame so many devs only cater the ADS style, we need more who don't so we have more options.
Besides, BF is primarily a TPS so ADS makes no sense.
ADS is not an ansolute improvement, it isn't an evolution. It's a different mechanic that changes the entire feel of a game.
It's a shame so many devs only cater the ADS style, we need more who don't so we have more options.
Besides, BF is primarily a TPS so ADS makes no sense.
are you for real? c'mon man ADS has its place, its not inferior.
It was great when it was used in slower realistic shooters.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I guess that's why the Storm Troopers could never hit anybody! Hahaha haha ha ha...
I like iron sights a lot, and I don't know why anyone wouldn't, but they don't really need to be there as much in a TPS I don't think.
I like iron sights a lot, and I don't know why anyone wouldn't, but they don't really need to be there as much in a TPS I don't think.
In your situation, one game would have an insta death sniper rifle or rail gun, where the other player moves at incredible speeds due to a variety of movement options, but also just in general movement sleed compared to a baret 50 cal player in cod who has to aim at a character moving at a snails pace. Dodging and strafing are something that hardly exist in these games outside of very small situations where players are close. In UT99 you can move fast and hope to dodge their weapon
The main flaw with ADS is it slows down gameplay and it lowers the skill ceili because of that. Even a game like Tf2, an "arena shooter" thats very casual oriented has a far higher skill ceiling then most ADS games.
this is an undeniable truth involved with ADS heavy games, they have a much lower skill ceiling when it comes to shooting people. And gunplay revolves essentially around who gets the first shot off because movement is so absolutley gimped by needing to aim all the time.
This is the biggest reason why a lot of hardcore fps players dont play fps games anymore, brcause you either play CSGO, which is not everyone cup of tea, or your stuck playing really old games with dead communities or indie shooters that dont have a high enough player count to even warrant getting good at.
I have no issues with games like COD or Battlefield existing, but ADS is not a good mechanic to just throw into every game, which is the case nowadays. Hell you can look at a game like Brink which had a heavy emphasis on beingable to traverse incredibly fast, but yourestill super limited when trying to aim your gun. Same with Titanfall. And gamers dont want that shit in their games anymore, you can look at the dwindling numbers of Titanfall and Destiny to understand that it hurts more games then it helps, and communities dont last because theres no skill ceiling to try and reach other then a bar at the bottom of your screen filling up.
RSB
Banned
Seriously. Destiny has many flaws, but it was the ADS mechanic (and the accuracy and movement penalties associated to it) that really ruined the game for me. If Bungie had not decided to sabotage their own game with that shit, I'd probably still be playing.
Ugh, so awful...
Oh well, at least it doesn't have the usual accuracy and movement penalties (the worst thing about ADS) I still wish they would have included a classic scope option though. That way, the players that need a weapon obstructing the middle of the screen when zooming would use ADS, and the players that prefer the elegance of the old zoom would use classic scopes. Everybody wins. But nope, apparently that's too much work for 343... (I guess a circle in the middle of the screen is very hard to do for them)
mcz117chief
Member
Both of the original games are FPS and have ADS. The TP mode is inferior to the FP in Battlefront.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
Neither Battlefront had ADS. You're thinking of the ability to use scopes, which Battlefront 3 has as well.
mcz117chief
Member
So scopes are not sights ? I understand that this game has no iron sights, but ALL weapons in both Battlefronts have scopes, ALL of them, even pistols and I hope that this will be back in Battlefront 3
A scope is something you look through that magnifies, iron sights are for aiming down the weapon without magnification.
Scopes are in BF3.
Edit: yes, there are ADS mechanica with scopes (which I forgot about), but the difference is Halo style scope versus CoD style ADS. BF had halo style scopes.
mcz117chief
Member
I know there are no iron sights, I said that in the post you quoted. I am just saying that ALL weapons in both Battlefronts have scopes so effectively you can ADS with every weapon. The only time you don't use ADS was at close range or with shotguns, which still have scopes.
And I explained that there's a difference. Scoping is not ADS, especially as scoping tends to not slow down movement.
mcz117chief
Member
But scopes are still sights, so the term "aim down the sights" still applies.
You can keep telling yourself that if you want, but they're very different things.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Zaka, I think you're confusing ADS with ironsights. You can ADS with scopes lol, that's how scoped weapons are in CoD. You aim down sight through a scope; it's not just a big reticle on your screen like Halo games because you still see your scope.
Something like this:
Something like this:
