Nor do they have them aim their guns into the sky while dancing around.
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Star Wars Episode 7 - Thread of Pre-Production
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
- Start date
Nor do they have them aim their guns into the sky while dancing around.
Forsaken82
Member
As I said, all they have to do is CG the faces. Will look less shitty.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I'm guessing you mean this gif?
see, I never had a problem with that, I always thought it showed two jedi at a moment both so in-tune at close range, and neither willing to commit to an attack that the other could counter and turn against them. Rapidly moving to keep at a stalemate without sabers ever touching.
but what do I know
Ape Gone Insane
Member
I liked that scene.
Anton Sugar
Member
That scene is an embarrassment to sword-fighting choreography--there's no reason or rhyme to its existence.
The fights in the prequels are awful. The final battle is good but this part is simply awful. It looks like shit.
The battles in the originals are so sweet. Brief flashes of violence, with emotion behind each swing punctuated by philosophising on the force. Brilliant.
Interesting trivia.
The fight choreographer of the Original Trilogy (and the guy inside the Darth Vader suit while fighting), Bob Anderson, once stabbed Errol Flynn, and also worked on The Princess Bride, Highlander, the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, and all of the LotR movies.
The guy who did the fight choreography in the Prequel Trilogy, Nick Gillard, worked on Judge Dredd (1995), and Wanted (the Angelina Jolie movie about assassins who can bend bullets).
The fight choreographer of the Original Trilogy (and the guy inside the Darth Vader suit while fighting), Bob Anderson, once stabbed Errol Flynn, and also worked on The Princess Bride, Highlander, the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, and all of the LotR movies.
The guy who did the fight choreography in the Prequel Trilogy, Nick Gillard, worked on Judge Dredd (1995), and Wanted (the Angelina Jolie movie about assassins who can bend bullets).
No, the Prequels don't have better choreography, they have more choreography. Lots more.
They are much worse for it.
Here's the problem, why they fuck are they twirling it like a baton? Stab the guy, you're not dancing, you're fighting.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
I won't disagree with your point that the original trilogy light saber duels are great, you're talking about the emotion and dialog more than the fights themselves. Perfect for the only conversation between Vader and Obi-Wan, and the two of the only conversations between Luke and Vader. Needed, in fact.
But in the original trilogy we saw the damaged Lord Vader vs an old man (who didn't really use the force, to speak of), and two fights against a not-completely trained Luke.
I always thought one of the fun parts about the prequels is getting to see real, fully trained, in the hey-dey and working together, Jedi Knights. The entire opening of Phantom Menace, with the trade federation guys realizing two Jedi are on the ship, and realizing they are fucked, is awesome, and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan quickly show why.
*shrug* - they are different, but that doesn't make the prequel lightsaber battles bad.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yoda's ridiculous lightsaber duels kinda invalidate the "old Jedi can't fight" argument.
Not to mention, you have plenty of old dudes doing twirly/fancy shit in the prequels. Count Dooku, conehead Jedi, Palpatine.
There is no logic to the disparity between the fights. It's the choreography equivalent of "let's make everything super shiny and rounded in the prequels because the universe was younger", when it's less than a hundred years "younger".
I rewatched ESB on tv over the break and it is amazing how much more believable the world is.
I never picked that up, I thought it was so that it could free Vader up for Force-related stuff.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yup. Luke matted with sweat while Vader basically glides around (until the climax) > any prequel fight.
Nah, this was at the start at the carbon freezing chamber. Luke also switches to 1 hand after Vader compliments him, sarcastically from what I can tell, in a cocky attempt to match him. That immediately leads to Luke getting disarmed and knocked down.
Vader is using both hands later when he starts throwing objects at Luke. It's a clear "Now I'm getting serious" moment.
JimtotheHum
Member
That...is a stretch.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
The music in that scene is great.
It's not.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
This is much better. It feels like the lightsabers have much more weight to them.
Starsunder
Member
Meh, the fights in the OG trilogy were ok, but I've never been particularly impressed by them.
I get that but they are just so horribly executed. Letting Ben Burt edit the last two films was a terrible decision. Re-Watch the Obi Wan Vs. Jango battle from EPII and pay close attention to the editing, it is awful. The pacing is horrible and there are jump cuts all over the place.
In response to Anton Sugar, I agree. The Yoda battle is a piece of shit but the battle between Dooku and Anakin is woeful. Using the sabers as the main light source is a great idea but it was so poorly done.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
I'd like to see a middle ground.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
I just hope this movie doesn't overuse CG in unnecessary ways. Use CG to augment scenes and settings, not be the scene and setting.
I prefer them, because there's more going on than just elaborate choreography. The fight in Empire in particular operates on a couple levels, not just two dudes fighting because. The fights in the prequels always felt soulless to me for that reason. (The fight in RotS comes close, but gets too absurd for its own good.)
Starsunder
Member
Agreed. Keep the emotion and gravitas of the OG fights, with some spruced up choreography of the prequels, although toned down from some of the more ridiculous shit (see the no hitting gif up-thread).
Anton Sugar
Member
Yeah, it's executed horribly. You can almost hear George say, "Okay, now just swing the lightsabers around your head. No, it doesn't matter that you're not doing any actual cuts, we're just gonna get closeups and awkwardly insert them into the scene."
I haven't done any kind of frame-by-frame, but I swear, it looks like they re-used and flipped some shots.
EDIT: Actually, they totally do. In Anakin's shots, there is this little triangle of light that is seen in both the first shot and the "reverse". So sloppy.
EDIT 2: To be clear, lots of editors reuse shots when it can be done seamlessly. This is just a failure.
Future PhaZe
Member
I actually think the Maul fight is the most uncomfortable and dramatic fight in the entire series. We clearly know nothing about if Qui-Gon would be in future films, nor the fate of Maul as well. Coreography wise it was probably the best also.
Anton Sugar
Member
I did like this fight, although it still has problems. RedLetterMedia points out the majority of them, a big one being "why didn't Obi-Wan do his force-speed-run to reach Qui-Gon?". It still lacks the ominous gravitas of a fight like Vader v Luke in ESB, in terms of mood.
Sapiens
Member
Probably been mentioned, but the lightsabres didn't get bad until Episode II where it looked like they just let a bunch of fans have a circlejerk about it with their KMart toy sabres.
I honestly think the use of the sabres in Ep1 was balanced. I mean, how cool was it to see Quigon dig a hole in that metal door?
And the fights were awesome. Completely awesome. They still felt like extremely dangerous instruments of death. It was a delightful realization of the potential Obi Wan hinted at while training luke in IV.
Everything to do with them in 2 and 3 though, yeah, just shitty. Completely shitty.
I honestly think the use of the sabres in Ep1 was balanced. I mean, how cool was it to see Quigon dig a hole in that metal door?
And the fights were awesome. Completely awesome. They still felt like extremely dangerous instruments of death. It was a delightful realization of the potential Obi Wan hinted at while training luke in IV.
Everything to do with them in 2 and 3 though, yeah, just shitty. Completely shitty.
Here are some viewing points for the ESB duel:
The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a jedi yet. - Vader opposes Luke with one hand, and continues to do so until after the freezing attempt.
You'll find I'm full of surprises. - Vader goads Luke into cockily switching to 1 hand as well, is immediately disarmed. Illustrates the lack of control he has over his emotions.
No dialogue is necessary. - Vader brings both hands together and proceeds to dominate Luke, showing the true power of the dark side.
The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a jedi yet. - Vader opposes Luke with one hand, and continues to do so until after the freezing attempt.
You'll find I'm full of surprises. - Vader goads Luke into cockily switching to 1 hand as well, is immediately disarmed. Illustrates the lack of control he has over his emotions.
No dialogue is necessary. - Vader brings both hands together and proceeds to dominate Luke, showing the true power of the dark side.
Starsunder
Member
The Darth Maul fight is my favorite out of the entire saga. It may lack the gravitas some of the OG fights, and of course Red Letter did their well known video of it, but I still love it.
This is a fairly interesting note. Thank you for this. I love things that help me appreciate my favorite movies more.
Anton Sugar
Member
It helps that it has the best villain.
Speaking of, they seriously screwed the pooch with villains in the prequels. There is no singular entity that they're fighting against. Just Darth Sidious, who everyone but the Jedi know is Palpatine, and one-off/weakly developed "generals" (Grievous, Dooku, Jango).
They should have kept Maul in all three movies, IMO, or at least two. Would have given Obi-Wan much more to do than play detective and babysit Anakin.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I don't know, lack of reverence to source material in Dawn of the Dead is a big part of what turned me off to him.
But this isn't really the fault of the fights themselves, it's the fault of the participants' characterizations.
There's tension in the OT fights because it's supported by the characterization of the participants, namely Luke abandoning his training in ESB to fight Vader and then again in ROTJ after he's completed it.
The fights in the prequels lack tension because we know next to nothing about the participants. We don't know the extent of Qui-Gon, Obi-wan or Maul's power to adequately become invested in their duels, so their actions during the duels come off as arbitrary. The same goes for the Anakin and Dooku fight. I think it was mentioned before in threads prior but what would have remedied these issues is if Lucas could have written some scenes of Obi-wan and Anakin's respective training and established their methods of combat.
Ok after watching this again, I definitely agree about Vader and the analysis of his style but I disagree about Luke in that Luke was seemingly trying to do faster strikes, not so much that he was necessarily trying to emulate Vader. You can see that one-handed style again right before he loses his hand. Luke tries to use it in short bursts for offensive purposes and repeatedly gets disarmed. I wouldn't inherently attribute it to his desire to copy Vader. That said, great job on Vader's style.
Forsaken82
Member
Before someone swoops in on this post in a condescending manner, I'll go ahead and say it: What's your take on The Totally Phantom Menace then?
Absolutely. The lightsaber clashing/testing at the 1:30 mark is fantastic, you get the sense of Vader's aggressive style and dominance, and there is some great footwork too. You can also tell that the combatants are actually aiming at each other compared to Phantom Menace.
Anton Sugar
Member
Haven't seen that fight in a long time--didn't realize the choreography was that loose.
A lot of movies a guilty of this, TBH. It's a shame.
Forsaken82
Member
Oh no, someone over analyzed a special effects laiden fight. Go figure. It doesn't take away from any of it. It is still far more entertaining to watch.
To be fair some moments on the OT duels like the Luke vs Vader in RotJ have some moments like that.
That's fair. I would say he was only using his other hand to support himself at that point though, considering he was standing on a tiny ledge. Other than those two points and when he needs to get up after Vader has him defeated, he's quite diligent at keeping his two-handed stance.
Forsaken82
Member
ironically, those moments actually have more interesting combat choreography going on as well, which I actually commented on in my original post.
There is absolutely no sense of weight or physicality in that fight. Look at the Bespin fight or even the Obi-Wan/Vader fight in the OG trilogy. You get a sense that the lightsabers clashing isn't the end of the struggle as Vader can still overpower the more agile Luke. Lightsabers in the OG series are treated more like broadswords while in the prequels are more akin to fencing(although both are heavily influenced/based in fencing).
Edag Plata
Banned
That scene with the music always gave me chills.
I disagree in regards to the ANH Obi-Wan Vader duel. Their lightsaber clashes seemed lightweight compared to the other duels, because in real life, the lightsaber rods were fragile and would break with little contact.
Yes the Obi/Vader doesn't have the physicality compared to ESB or ROTJ but then Obi was also an old man and Vader wasn't exactly being heavily aggressive/being more patient.