Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Also, of course Disney bought Lucasfilm with the intent of making more Star Wars movies. Otherwise they wouldn't have bought it in the first place.
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Star Wars Episode 7 - Thread of Pre-Production
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
- Start date
legacyzero
Banned
I'm guessing you mean this gif?
I never understood the hate for this. I actually like this little scene. Sure, it's kindof a cheesy GIF. But with full sound and context, it's awesome.
I think the whirring of the lightsabers is what did it for me.
To be fair though Star Wars is still bringing in tons of money in merchandise based purely off the Clone Wars animated series, I believe last year it was still the top selling boys toy brand.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is kinda/sorta incorrect. Lucas was talking to people about making new Star Wars movies, yes, but that was with the knowledge he was going to close the deal with Disney soon. Lucasfilm was never going to make any more Star Wars movies independently. All motion towards making new movies was started after Lucas was certain the deal with Disney was gonna close.
Basically, once he hired Kathleen Kennedy to take over Lucasfilm, he knew he was selling.
Also "Lucas wrote the story outlines" = "Old shit in a trunk from 1981" It's probably not going to be adhered to all that strongly by Arndt/Kasdan/whoever else gets a crack at the screenplays.
Also, yes, Lucas not only asked Darabont to work on Episode I, he once asked Darabont to DIRECT Episode I, before deciding he should do it himself (of course, later reports have it he decided to direct as his directing was part of the deal with Pepsi to secure that multi-billion dollar endorsement deal)
Anyway, Darabont did do some polish on Episode I (as did Carrie Fisher, I believe) - so far as I remember, Darabont's falling out with George Lucas didn't happen until around 2005/2006, when the Indy script he had been hired to write was effectively strip-mined.
Even with Lucas out of the picture in any meaningful way on the production side, I doubt Darabont would do it - he seems to be fine with being a TV guy now, setting up shows. I don't think he could successfully showrun "L.A. Noir" and direct a Star Wars movie at the same time.
I will say that the Episode 1 duel is a very impressive fight (and it does mostly feel like they are actually trying to kill each other), while the Episode 5 and 6 duels are impressive scenes, period. The Episode 2 and 3 duels are just moronic flippy dances.
I agree with this. There's an emotional resonance to the fight scenes in Empire and Return of the Jedi that just isn't really all that present in the Maul fight. Without Duel of the Fates I don't think there'd be any at all, it'd be like watching gymnastics.
For me, its like watching a ballet or a dance, the choreography is quite amazing but it doesn't make the actual fight any more impressive. It dissolves the tension for me.
Yeah, it was a nice fight to look at but it was so obviously choreographed.. they moved from one set piece to another, none of it felt natural. I would prefer lightsaber fights to be fast and brutal (and use more force powers).
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The Episode I saber duel is notable for introducing a headfake into the fight. It's the closest thing to any real "strategy" shown by anyone.
The duel really only comes alive once Obi-Wan is separated. The fighting that happens between Qui-Gon & Maul while Obi-Wan has to helplessly watch is probably the best fighting of that whole duel, from a dramatic standpoint.
The duel really only comes alive once Obi-Wan is separated. The fighting that happens between Qui-Gon & Maul while Obi-Wan has to helplessly watch is probably the best fighting of that whole duel, from a dramatic standpoint.
Anton Sugar
Member
Why, Obi-Wan?! WHY DID YOU NOT FORCE RUN
Bobby Roberts
Banned
More like why was Force Run introduced in the first place. Personally, I think it was a crappy fx patch slapped in place to make up for an editing error: Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan bailing out from the Destroyer Droids on the command ship is one of the dodgiest effects in all of the Star Wars movies, and it really feels like a shortcut. Instead of placing the destroyer droids farther back down the hall, or inserting a shot (necessitating reshoots/recomps) where they deflect a bolt to bring down a ceiling panel or something - Lucas just had them insert a goofy flicker effect and had them whip out of the scene super fast.
It's a power that's never seen again in any of the movies, nor ever referenced again.
cj_iwakura
Member
I think it's more hilarious that four Jedi Masters stand around looking stupid while Palpatine aims his next strike.
universalmind
Member
Lol the choreography in the original was almost always sucky and blatant. The only good saber fight was in VI. V is awful. Vader getting hit and then bouncing back dramatically all like "Ahhh! The bright light! It burns!" Looks way worse and more fake than any prequel fight.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's not a run. That's a jump. He also doesn't flicker when he does it.
The Force Run was a bad idea, implemented badly, and probably given the pass because Lucas knew a lot of people watching would go "Oh, I guess they just... used the force or something."
Your are so right. I hate when people use that line. It makes me cringe. All you guys who have such of reverence for George Lucas writing ability need to read "The Secret History of Star Wars."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't actually like "The Secret History of Star Wars" myself. It reads more like "Confirmation Bias: The Essay."
Anyway, I'm not cracking on Lucas' writing ability (although I could, yeah, EASILY) I'm just saying he didn't really write all that much beforehand when it comes to prequels/sequels. Any outlines that exist are likely just a collection of rough ideas he had in the early 80s that he wrote down as a means to help him better wrap his head around how these characters could be more fleshed out.
And a Force Jump that was never introduced prior to Luke doing it out of sheer convenience wasn't as bad? Come on.
If anything I'd say the conclusion of VI's was laughable. Yes, yes, Luke's anger was getting the best of him but he literally gets Vader exhausted and on his ass with less than 2 minutes of reckless, non-sensical whacking.
No one has reverence for George Lucas as a writer, not even before the prequels.
Lionel Mandrake
Member
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Enh.. People were chugging a lot of that "master of mythmaking" kool aid before the prequels. I know what you mean that no one ever accused him of good dialogue, though.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
I think that entire sequence was choreographed and shot on Take Your Children To Work Day.
Then why do people keep interjecting that "Lucas wrote the story outlines" like it's a good thing? I hope they look at his stuff once, laugh, and do their own thing.
That's really a different thing. The only screenplay Lucas wrote for Star Wars before the prequels was ANH, and it is unquestionably the least solid in terms of screenplay. But the world and the mythology, pastiche as they are, are undoubtedly his.
Star Wars is probably the most successful representation of the classic hero's journey in popular culture. Seems pretty deserved to me.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Well it was literally written to fit Joseph Campbell's criterion for Hero's Journey...
... And then Lucas actually funded a lot of the Joseph Campbell documentaries that furthered the theory of the Hero's Journey in popular culture (always adding in a mention of Star Wars and Lucas as the modern embodiment).
So I'd say that George Lucas being an exemplar of mythmaking was, ironically, a great piece of mythmaking on its own...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You mean the force jump that was set up in the narrative via the constant training he was doing with Yoda before he went to Cloud City, including him doing giant somersaulting leaps with an entire creature on his back while balancing said creature on his foot while levitating a rock and a droid?
Come on
I don't recall seeing any physical activity from Luke during the training that had him greatly surpassing normal human speeds.You mean the force jump that was set up in the narrative via the constant training he was doing with Yoda before he went to Cloud City, including him doing giant somersaulting leaps with an entire creature on his back while balancing said creature on his foot while levitating a rock and a droid?
Come on
Otherwise you wouldn't have been complaining about the presence of Force Run in Episode 1 nor making the claim that it was not "seen again in any of the movies, nor ever referenced again." So to answer your question of your previous post: why was Force Run introduced? Because something like it had already been introduced. It was called Force Jump and it was in Empire Strikes Back and it was just as poorly implemented as Force Run.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
You're reaching. He was practising his ability to become aware of the force through concentration. He wasn't practising force jumps lol.You mean the force jump that was set up in the narrative via the constant training he was doing with Yoda before he went to Cloud City, including him doing giant somersaulting leaps with an entire creature on his back while balancing said creature on his foot while levitating a rock and a droid?
Come on
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Jesus Christ fucking STAR WARS arguments are the BEST arguments.
Okay, the Episode I "Force Run" is a shitty effect, exhibiting a power that wasn't previously set up in any movie, nor referenced in any other movie ever again, which makes it's initial use even MORE suspect because there's a segment of the movie that follows in which a "force run" could have been applied, but wasn't, and no reason was given WHY it wasn't, so introducing the force run in the FIRST place makes it a really, really questionable decision, and to my mind, likely a quick-fix application of special effects so as to avoid having to do any re-editing/re-shooting, especially when the people making those decisions know that the chunk of the audience that might even question it is likely to write it off as "Force Speed," a concept they've become familiar with thanks to video games & comics/novelizations. So that's my read.
(my read gets completely blown up if it turns out the shooting script of Episode I mentions the Jedi get away by exhibiting a burst of Force Speed - at which point I'll reiterate that I still think it's a shitty effect and a dumb implementation of it)
I don't think that's a stretch compared to the idea that Running is the same as Jumping, nor is it a stretch that the physicality of Luke was being tested in that training just as much as the mental. The idea that Luke could, before he landed on that planet, do like 5 foot long jumps while somersaulting with an alien on his back seems pretty fucking sketchy, to me. The movie takes care to insert that sequence of him leaping through the woods with an Alien on his back to show us how far along he's coming (which the movie then kneecaps by having him go into the cave) - which mirrors him on Cloud City, holding his own, making another physical leap (to the piping above the freezing chamber) only to find himself in over his head AGAIN a few moments later. Not to mention there's multiple examples of people jumping really high in multiple Star Wars movies, and yet the only real example of "Force Speed" is in a split second on a donut ship in the first 15 minutes of the fourth Star Wars movie.
One of those actions has some semblance of set-up/explanation and (especially considering Luke is on Dagobah SPECIFICALLY to train SPECIFICALLY to defeat Vader) and the other is a quick-fix to get out of one dumb scene and into another dumb scene.
And there's three paragraphs about force powers in two different Star Wars movies that I didn't expect to write today!
edit: Here's the relevant passage from the revised third draft of Episode I, as seen on the Starkiller script site.
A concept they've become familiar with thanks to... Luke's Force Jump in Empire Strikes Back. No really, you should go back and watch the clip I provided for you and then watch the Force Run part in Episode 1, both instances are on the same level of stupid.
No, they're both quick-fixes to get in and out of scenes. In the case of Empire Strikes Back, it doesn't make any sense that Luke is doing middle school level gymnastics with Yoda, only to suddenly be able to jump 3-stories against Vader.
The Force Jump was as unnecessary as the Force Run. Luke falls into the carbon freeze chamber and instead of seeing him use the normal physical strength (that we saw on Dagobah) to somehow narrowly climb his way out before the carbon freeze takes over (accurately illustrating just how much of a thread Luke is surviving by with such limited training), he instead near-instantaneously escapes with an ability the audience hasn't seen before and again, those alien-on-his-back-acrobatics didn't demonstrate anything to even insinuate that Luke could have possessed such an ability.
Let's not even forget the instances where Luke could have used Force Jump, like in ROTJ when he wanted to get to Jabba's ship from the speeder he was to be executed on. Instead of the confident Force Jump we saw in ESB, we see Luke take a shoddy leap and barely latch onto the side of Jabba's ship.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, they're not. We just disagree on this, man. I see a flickering jitter for a few frames, versus a dude jumping straight up. I don't think that jump in Empire is stupid, for the reasoning I (vastly over-)explained above
That's like a 30 foot jump, isn't it? The editing's kinda choppy, but that skiff is like, 20-30 feet away from the Barge when he jumps (with like, a one-step windup) Also, that Empire jump - the birthplace of all future force-powers, apparently - went from "Stupid" to "Confident" in your argument real quick there
Anyway - we're getting pretty far afield from my initial point, which was "Force Speed" was a dumb effect, implemented stupidly. I don't quite understand what your counterpoint is: That it's NOT a dumb effect, or that because you think the effect in Empire is also dumb, that the weaksauce implementation of that effect in Phantom Menace is totally justified.
If it's the first, I disagree, if it's the second, I disagree!
It is DARK in this rabbit hole.
I see a stupid effect in Episode 1. I also see a stupid effect in Episode 5. Both were equally stupid in the context of their uses.
The second part of your post I already addressed in clear sentences a few posts up.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well okay then. High-five on this horrendously inefficient waste of time! Lets force jump out of this pit of insipid in all our flickery stupid glory.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
My point was that the Yoda training scene didn't set up shit in relation to Luke's jump. They're both silly ways of using the Force as a means of getting a character out of a jam.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Guess who completely disagrees!
This guy!
Seriously, it's not like I didn't understand you. It's that I don't think you're right, and then I explained why. It's no big deal, it's just Star Wars bullshit.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Yeah, but if your disagreeing with me just means that I'm not finished!
Okay I'm finished. [/Canadian Prime Minister]
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Well played, Sculli.
Thug Waffle
Member
Force speed and force jump are fine. Even as far as the purists are concerned, it's logical that the OT lightsaber duels and force demonstrations would be less extravagant as the force wielders in the OT were inexperienced (Luke), old as fuck (Obi-Wan, Vader and Yoda), practically immobile by necessity (Vader), or just about to die (Yoda... and technically, Obi-Wan and Vader as well, but it's not the same). Luke still had a great deal more to learn about the Force AND swordplay when Return of the Jedi came to a close.
And that's without even entertaining the practical argument for the advantages high production value and new filmmaking technologies have granted us.
Both abilities have been pushed to extremes in some cases within EU, but I can personally excuse that.
And that's without even entertaining the practical argument for the advantages high production value and new filmmaking technologies have granted us.
Both abilities have been pushed to extremes in some cases within EU, but I can personally excuse that.
Anton Sugar
Member
Look at that old Jedi, moving so slowly!
Ape Gone Insane
Member
J.J. Abrams to Direct Star Wars: Episode VII
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/jj-abrams-set-direct-next-star-wars-film-exclusive-74596
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/jj-abrams-set-direct-next-star-wars-film-exclusive-74596
brandonh83
Banned
Wow. That's pretty crazy.
Damon Bennet
Member
Oh god, I hate it so much when star wars fans nitpick every thing to death. "oh no they move their swords too much". just enjoy the movies, jeez!
brandonh83
Banned
I agree, it's nauseating.