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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
It's confirmed.
I knew MC was a smart man.
Testing further balance changes. These ones are interesting.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11674147788#1
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11674147788#1
Beautiful!
All changes I've heard suggested around here before. Really hope all of these make it through. Bomber influencing dat meta with that Widow Mine TvP style he's been showing off!
I feel that with Terrans not having fear for their lives as much anymore about bull shit all ins that the good ones will be able to focus on their macro and surviving storms in the late game won't be as much of a problem since they'll be cranking out more units. That plus the Ghost buff means we should be seeing Terrans rush Ghosts out much faster than before.
MC becomes undefeated starting now
How about Oracle ms? Those guys are like feraris while marines are prius
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Gee, hey look! I want to play some SC2, you know, before it dies, and Battle.net doesn't work!
Kindly fuck off Blizzard, you miserably shit of a company.
Kindly fuck off Blizzard, you miserably shit of a company.
So much anger.
Also, i think the blink timing increase is a bit much. But like others said, i doubt it gets into the game.
I think the Meta is stale because people are just waiting on patch changes explicitly though.
Crimsonlink
Member
Meta has been stale for many reasons. Protoss allins making Terran pushouts impossible before 10 minute mark due to Blink and Oracles mostly. PvZ becoming Deathball vs Ultimate defense or just timing attacks and counter attacks.
Pros not being original due to the desire to make money. Nobody tries to make some crazy move because they are afraid of losing.
Building armor from an Ebay to beat Blink All in would have been nice to see instead of +1 all the time. 6 rax allin vs Zerg that went 3 hatch.
Pros not being original due to the desire to make money. Nobody tries to make some crazy move because they are afraid of losing.
Building armor from an Ebay to beat Blink All in would have been nice to see instead of +1 all the time. 6 rax allin vs Zerg that went 3 hatch.
SCII isn't dead Yoshi.
The Blink nerf also helps in making mech that much more viable.
I love how Protoss are crying like it's the ending of the world. Blink Stalkers will still be perfectly viable. They'll just be a lot less effective at all ins. Hopefully it'll also force more interesting unit compositions out of Protoss rather than just mass Stalkers. It's not like they didn't have options before but mass Blink Stalkers are just so stupid effective that you might as well go EZ mode all day, er day.
On the contrary, Reality and Soulkey killed it last night... TWICE!
I love how Protoss are crying like it's the ending of the world. Blink Stalkers will still be perfectly viable. They'll just be a lot less effective at all ins. Hopefully it'll also force more interesting unit compositions out of Protoss rather than just mass Stalkers. It's not like they didn't have options before but mass Blink Stalkers are just so stupid effective that you might as well go EZ mode all day, er day.
On the contrary, Reality and Soulkey killed it last night... TWICE!
Crimsonlink
Member
I actually think Reality killed it himself. Had the advantage all to throw it away.
No wonder Samsung doesn't let him play in their lineup.
To be fair, that style worked perfectly well against Hydra and it was most certainly working against Soulkey but Soulkey knew better not to just YOLO his entire army into mass Ravens + Siege Tanks.
Against Protoss? Since when? Maybe if the Protoss player goes for the wrong build, doesn't pressure at all and doesn't know what they're doing... or if they're just a tier below their opponent.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen a meching Terran win against Protoss since the HotS era began.
I honestly think the stagnation issue always comes full circle to balance issues. Players don't want to try out new strategies/compositions because they want to make money and making money is easy when all-ins are so powerful and tried and true builds/unit comps are either the only effective way or only way PERIOD that a match up can be tackled. Players don't bother being creative because of how fundamentally broken so many aspects of the game are.
I think you're adding money into a discussion that it's not really related too. Just winning.
It's been stagnant because people knew what worked. Most Meta changes have come on the back of patch changes, because HoTS has never really been balanced, in the sense that, all tech paths for every match up, worked.
It's hard to look for creative differences when Hellbats were killing everything in under 10 minutes. Or blink stalkers were either keeping you pinned incredibly defensively or killing you in under 10 mins.
I'm not saying i want every game to go 45 minutes. But it's been the exploitable strength of some super early builds, that aren't even necessarily all ins, that have stagnated things.
And given the giant swings in meta due to patch changes, it's been hard to look at some players body of work over an extended period of time and pick out quirks / flaws / distinct trends in how they go about their play.
There are masters and GM players who do nothing but Mech TvP and have respectable win rates. The only thing it really has trouble with are carriers. A player in GSL or Proleague beat a Protoss with Ghost Tank Viking Hellbat two weeks ago though I don't remember the name.
Last season my best matchup was TvP using mech. It's viable at most levels, maybe not at GSL code A/S level, but then again maybe it is. We just haven't seen it explored very well in televised games. It' inarguable that mech is viable at most levels of the game, and arguable that it isn't at the 0.1%. I dunno. These buffs/nerfs would certainly help out even more.
Crimsonlink
Member
The main problem is dealing with the mobility of Warp Prism drops and Immortals meaning you can't make too many tanks and lower your army size based on that unless you make Ghosts that hit their EMPs.
It just hit me that BCs soft counter Carriers with Yamato because Interceptors can't kill BCs fast enough but then Tempests lol.
I agree with you but minerals aren't important for mech, not nearly as much as gas. You can over turret late game and use PFs to expo beyond your third (or as your third if insanely pressured) and be pretty ok against Warp Prism harass. Early game it's not a bad idea to get an early viking if they're getting an early robo. Sensor towers when you can afford them will also help against mid-late game harass.
And yeah carriers are good because they mess up BC targeting and have such a high fire rate that they obliterate the energy on PDDs, and the visual noise of the interceptors and sheer size coverage of the carriers can't be under stated.
Colossi and Storm are less effective against mech than Bio, and when toss wants to start getting their air going (provided they aren't trying Air toss from the start or something) you will have a huge upgrade lead to help mitigate the estrength of their air units and you will be more cost efficient against them while they're army composition is transitioning and their upgrades are being researched. Toss units aren't cheap, so you can really strain them during this period with decent trades while making sure to harass mineral lines.
You're right about the problems of mech v toss, but I find them less of an issue than the problems that bio have. Every composition save for Broodfestor from WoL is going to have trade offs!
And yeah carriers are good because they mess up BC targeting and have such a high fire rate that they obliterate the energy on PDDs, and the visual noise of the interceptors and sheer size coverage of the carriers can't be under stated.
Colossi and Storm are less effective against mech than Bio, and when toss wants to start getting their air going (provided they aren't trying Air toss from the start or something) you will have a huge upgrade lead to help mitigate the estrength of their air units and you will be more cost efficient against them while they're army composition is transitioning and their upgrades are being researched. Toss units aren't cheap, so you can really strain them during this period with decent trades while making sure to harass mineral lines.
You're right about the problems of mech v toss, but I find them less of an issue than the problems that bio have. Every composition save for Broodfestor from WoL is going to have trade offs!
The Tempest is a lame unit. It looks cool, but otherwise completely lame.
Each attack looks like the apocalypse. An angry, roiling cloud of white hot energy, arcs of lightning crackling over its surface, and then it hits with all the impact of a spitball.
But the real problem is that it's the toss bandaid unit. Oh, is some weird zerg tactic screwing up the meta game? Just modify the Tempest attack to do extra damage to whatever unit's mostly to blame.
Each attack looks like the apocalypse. An angry, roiling cloud of white hot energy, arcs of lightning crackling over its surface, and then it hits with all the impact of a spitball.
But the real problem is that it's the toss bandaid unit. Oh, is some weird zerg tactic screwing up the meta game? Just modify the Tempest attack to do extra damage to whatever unit's mostly to blame.
They didn't do that. The whole problem revolves around Swarm Hosts. Spores just happen to complement.
This is true, toss has been badly designed from day 1. Tho I do think a lot of these changes go a long way to mitigating the infuriating design choices.
It's great to see Blizzard being so responsive. I think what has done it is community consensus of toss, from all corners, reaching a fever peak. I mean what can Blizzard say when MC is calling Toss IMBA ez on twitter. It's more than just balance, people at all levels find the design of Protoss to be gimmicky and infuriating to play against. These nerfs/buff are all designed to help promote options in the MUs and to mitigate the overly forgiving nature of the race that has so many players feeling sour.
other thing I'd like to see maybe for LotV though?
Recall supply cap with new upgrade to increase cap
Sight nerf: cool
Blink nerf: Boo, if you're going to do that, do what Blizz did with Marauders in WoL and create a virtually 'free' upgrade that speeds up the blink cool-down to its original time. Maybe I'm not think this through, but less micro-able unit for the mid/late game = bad.
WM Buff: Not sure, but I won't say no. Will help out Bio as well as mech! Might make double planetary's suicide to attack into without tempest. Indirectly buffing tempest role in the MU.
Tempest buff: No opinion except Tempest Deathball is going to be hell once it gets rolling v terran. Maybe more of an issue for mech than bio.
------------------------------->Starcraft Universe is fucking awesome guys anyone else playing it?<---------------------
http://youtu.be/nO-GlJzfT9A
Play the PTR
It's great to see Blizzard being so responsive. I think what has done it is community consensus of toss, from all corners, reaching a fever peak. I mean what can Blizzard say when MC is calling Toss IMBA ez on twitter. It's more than just balance, people at all levels find the design of Protoss to be gimmicky and infuriating to play against. These nerfs/buff are all designed to help promote options in the MUs and to mitigate the overly forgiving nature of the race that has so many players feeling sour.
other thing I'd like to see maybe for LotV though?
Recall supply cap with new upgrade to increase cap
Sight nerf: cool
Blink nerf: Boo, if you're going to do that, do what Blizz did with Marauders in WoL and create a virtually 'free' upgrade that speeds up the blink cool-down to its original time. Maybe I'm not think this through, but less micro-able unit for the mid/late game = bad.
WM Buff: Not sure, but I won't say no. Will help out Bio as well as mech! Might make double planetary's suicide to attack into without tempest. Indirectly buffing tempest role in the MU.
Tempest buff: No opinion except Tempest Deathball is going to be hell once it gets rolling v terran. Maybe more of an issue for mech than bio.
------------------------------->Starcraft Universe is fucking awesome guys anyone else playing it?<---------------------
http://youtu.be/nO-GlJzfT9A
Play the PTR
I can't believe the MSC got away with 14 vision for almost a year. Shit looks ridiculous.
I think people must've been freaking out because they thought the 5 second increase on the timer was real time and not in-game time. Looking at it like this, I never realized how fast cooldown came off Blink. The 5 second increase is gonna be nothing. At least now it'll punish Protoss for missclicking and accidentally leaving some Stalkers behind in your base.
ebullientprism
Member
So I am looking into getting into this series. I am assuming I need WoL before I can buy HotS?
Whats the best place to buy WoL from?
Whats the best place to buy WoL from?
Crimsonlink
Member
See if you can find a good deal for it. Some places have it for $20. You want new as otherwise you won't get a key to make an account.
I think if you buy from Amazon you can get both for $50-60.
Feb 10 Proposed Changes: Pro Opinions
Opinions about MSC nerf is uniformly positive. Protoss are just freaking out about PvP and the fact that they won't get free scouting information in the early game anymore. Like Snute is saying:
All the complaints about the Blink nerf from Protoss players are hilarious to me. Honestly, if the MSC didn't exist, I would agree that this would be a crippling change but just because of the fact that Time Warp exists just means that Protoss will actually have to put more effort into Blink all-ins instead of just automatically winning like they do in most cases in PvT. Yeah, Mutas may be more difficult to deal with in PvZ and drops in PvT but Blink will still certainly be a staple that Protoss will continue to use in all matchups.
Opinions about MSC nerf is uniformly positive. Protoss are just freaking out about PvP and the fact that they won't get free scouting information in the early game anymore. Like Snute is saying:
Snute said:
All the complaints about the Blink nerf from Protoss players are hilarious to me. Honestly, if the MSC didn't exist, I would agree that this would be a crippling change but just because of the fact that Time Warp exists just means that Protoss will actually have to put more effort into Blink all-ins instead of just automatically winning like they do in most cases in PvT. Yeah, Mutas may be more difficult to deal with in PvZ and drops in PvT but Blink will still certainly be a staple that Protoss will continue to use in all matchups.
ebullientprism
Member
Any idea where specifically? Amazon has it for 27 bucks from what I can see. Friend of mine saw it on some CD key selling website thingy for 20 bucks but neither of us are sure if that place is legit.
Inside The Game Episode 92 LIVE!
Hosted by djWHEAT, iNcontroL, Suppy and Xenocider.
Discussion about balance updates happening soon.
I hope you accidentally merge all of your full energy High Templar into Archons in the middle of an engagement the next time you play.
Hosted by djWHEAT, iNcontroL, Suppy and Xenocider.
Discussion about balance updates happening soon.
I'd play Toss if I wouldn't get crap for it till I died.
I love Stalkers. I love Protoss theme music when playing. Xeratul is a pimp.
That is all.
I hope you accidentally merge all of your full energy High Templar into Archons in the middle of an engagement the next time you play.
I'd play Toss if I wouldn't get crap for it till I died.
I love Stalkers. I love Protoss theme music when playing. Xeratul is a pimp.
That is all.
Dragoon>stalkers
Oh wait.
Brood war>SC2
Pls LoV salvage sc2 :_:
LotV has got some high steaks riding on it. Lots of pressure to fix the game. But at the same time, an opportunity to re-design some of the flawed units and progressions too.
...
We'll all be playing moba's in a year.
Scientists Warn of Swarm Host Threat
Amazing. lol
Bonus:
ESPORTS scientists have expressed concern at the exponential increase in the length of games caused by the introduction of the Zerg Swarm Host, indicating that the unit is a cause for grave concern.
StarCraft 2 balance designer and head swarmologist David Kim have rushed to quash the claims, insisting that there is no evidence at all that the Swarm Host is any threat and citing that the accelerated game timer may be misleading audiences into erroneously believing game length has been increasing.
Amazing. lol
Bonus:
He has great taste in music, and his coughs make it sound like he's shooting you through the internet.
Ok guys I need some advice. My TvP and TvZ are pretty solid. The other day I beat a Zerg that was top 8 masters, and I'm so good at mech TvP that I probably spend my time in this thread giving people bad advice in the matchup, but my TvT is very under developed.
I 1 rax expand every game, scout, and have three deviations.
1. See 1 rax expand/cc first: Take a 3rd CC immediately.
2. See gas opening with marine: Cancel my second marine, try to keep SCV in base to scout for tech, either ad faster second rax with double gas, or expand with 3rd CC in base (depends on if it looks like 111 or just fast banshee)
3. See gas opening reaper: add second rax, 3rd CC, get gases in main.
All well and good until I ran into a T that 'faces GMs on ranked play' and hits 'Masters on unranked'.
This guy showed me how bad my builds actually are. He crushed me with attacks over and over again in Practice.
He says his control is better (true) but that I'm not a bad player, just my builds only work at lower levels.
Does anyone have a firm grasp on the TvT meta game and would be willing to teach me to adapt to new builds and deviations? The player in question wants to practice with me to help me improve, but all the help I can get would be great.
I'll upload my glorious fail at some point tomorrow so everyone can point and laugh.
Ok guys I need some advice. My TvP and TvZ are pretty solid. The other day I beat a Zerg that was top 8 masters, and I'm so good at mech TvP that I probably spend my time in this thread giving people bad advice in the matchup, but my TvT is very under developed.
I 1 rax expand every game, scout, and have three deviations.
1. See 1 rax expand/cc first: Take a 3rd CC immediately.
2. See gas opening with marine: Cancel my second marine, try to keep SCV in base to scout for tech, either ad faster second rax with double gas, or expand with 3rd CC in base (depends on if it looks like 111 or just fast banshee)
3. See gas opening reaper: add second rax, 3rd CC, get gases in main.
All well and good until I ran into a T that 'faces GMs on ranked play' and hits 'Masters on unranked'.
This guy showed me how bad my builds actually are. He crushed me with attacks over and over again in Practice.
He says his control is better (true) but that I'm not a bad player, just my builds only work at lower levels.
Does anyone have a firm grasp on the TvT meta game and would be willing to teach me to adapt to new builds and deviations? The player in question wants to practice with me to help me improve, but all the help I can get would be great.
I'll upload my glorious fail at some point tomorrow so everyone can point and laugh.
Startale are teaming up with IM to participate in Proleague. Starting with season 2 (or round 2, or what ever).
They'll be competing wearing IM uniforms.
And the players in question are moving into the IM training house.
It's basically the end of startale from what i can see.
Sort of sucks.
They'll be competing wearing IM uniforms.
And the players in question are moving into the IM training house.
It's basically the end of startale from what i can see.
Sort of sucks.