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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike

Z

Zen

Banned
Flash Interview on Balance, David Kim, and Parting

Q: Words for winning the series for the team.

Flash: Like the last series, my performance was not very good. In the ACE match, I was very nervous, so there were many mistakes. Next time I really need to be relaxed a little bit more.

Q: Your current TvP is not very good. It was not like this in the past.

Flash: On the one hand, Protoss is in an advantageous position; on the other hand, I did not play to my full strength like I did in the practice. In other matchups, you are less likely to get all-in’ed. But in TvP, you need to be completely ready for all-ins. It is a huge headache. And even I don’t have confidence. In the next series, I will prepare well and hope I can meet Protoss again.

Q: Is Protoss in a dominant position?

Flash: To be honest, it is at the moment. But Protoss is not invincible. I believe I will get better and I am practicing hard. In the practice, I can win Protoss often.

Q: Is it predetermined that you play the ACE match?

Flash: Yes. I expect my opponent to be either solar or Roro, or it’s a Protoss. I prepared everything, so I had confidence for the ACE match.

Q: How did you expect the game with Stork?

Flash: I want to play TvP. I want to meet a Protoss in the next match. I want to improve my weakness and accumulate more experience.

Q: How do you feel about Stork’s ceremony?

Flash: I don’t care how people do ceremony after winning me. I even want to applaud for Stork’s victory. But on the other hand, I did take notice of Parting’s ceremony where he used the ruler that I used for preparing my gears. It’s uncomfortable that the material of the ceremony is based on my behavior (smile). Back in the United States, I treated Parting very well. I even paid for several meals for him. He said he won’t do ceremony to me. But now he did this to me, which makes me feel betrayed. Parting was considered by many as not a beloved person but I thought him as a kind-hearted player. But now I am disappointed. It would be better if he just did a ceremony with a 'shutdown move' (smile).

Q: Any words for David Kim?

Flash: He said I can send him email, so I did several times. Several patches until now have reflected my opinions to some extent. So I don’t have more to say. David Kim probably heard too many opinions from too many sides, so he couldn’t make changes so easily. But Protoss is indeed overpowered. I think he will have solutions in the next patch.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=444578#1

Also make sure to watch this 'game of the year' candidate from WCS EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E01WQxBjAX0
 
D

danielcw

Member
Could I be added to the GAF clan?
(who can do this?)


And I would like to ask again, if anybody could recommend some maps for 3 players?
I would like to add a custom Melee game mode to them
 
Z

Zen

Banned
There has almost never been a more clear example of how stupid Toss is designed than WCS America Group D.

http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america/b/506623184

Total Biscuit comments

akgLPah.jpg


The money shot

http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america/c/3794180
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
All i saw was Jaedong losing to a terrible protoss build by playing way to greedy. That is a bloody easy build to stop and he deserved every bit of that loss.

What exactly is the complaint here? Or is it just generic rage because Jaedong lost to a player that even most foreigners would man handle?

Zen said:
There has almost never been a more clear example of how stupid Toss is designed than WCS America Group D.
Click to expand...

This sentence is just absolutely ludicrous and the game you showed really does little to demonstrate the main complaints about toss design in SC2.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
AdventureRacing said:
This sentence is just absolutely ludicrous and the game you showed really does little to demonstrate the main complaints about toss design in SC2.
Click to expand...

I picked that game because it was funny. Testy testy. And as for the quoted, well duh that's why I provided the link to group d which you probably haven't watched.

Mass edits!

And also, hold up, Haas is not terrible...
 
C

Crimsonlink

Member
AdventureRacing said:
All i saw was Jaedong losing to a terrible protoss build by playing way to greedy. That is a bloody easy build to stop and he deserved every bit of that loss.

What exactly is the complaint here? Or is it just generic rage because Jaedong lost to a player that even most foreigners would man handle?
Click to expand...

Which game are we talking about? The game on Frost Has won hands down because JD didn't build Spores and defenses in time and lost to DT and then Blink Stalkers.

The 3rd game is the real controversy though. A 6 pylon wall and JD answered with pulling Drones to bring them down or suffer from cannon fire and being contained.

I do not see JD being greedy in game 3. Going Hatch first is not greedy in PvZ or ZvT for the most part and JD got his pool at 15 vs a greedy 3 hatch before pool.

Putting down spines right away and keep mining with the drone probably would have been the better answer to this build but JD never faced it.

Protoss safely expanded behind the wall and to add insult to injury build 4 cannons to protect the expo.

JD took his expo back with minimal losses because he needed the income and production. He put the spines on the bottom base which his big mistake. Protoss simply had too much of an advantage though with 7 gates and warp prism being a flying pylon.

If it was so easy then JD should have held it Adventureracing. I really don't see where his greed let him lose to the build.

Game in question

There are a lot of bad feelings and complaints against protoss players lately. Has sadly has to deal with the ire of a popular player like JD's fans.

Also Has did beat lots of foreingers and Koreans to get where he was before Bomber sent him back down. The main issue a lot of people felt is that Has abused the Protoss ability of pressure to make an unfair match for JD. Now is it fair for Has? That is something I can't say for certain.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
unknownstranger said:
I've only seen the part of the game the link takes it too but it shouldn't have been too hard for Jaedong to Overlord scout for tech in Has' base.
Click to expand...

danielcw said:
I liked watching that.
Wouldn't it have likely failed for the Protoss, if the Zerg stayed on one base?
Click to expand...

His first OV just makes it to the natural to see no forge no expo as the pylons are going down, I don't think he could have gotten OV scouting any earlier.

Does a drone scout set Z behind too much to be worth it in the MU?

I'm fine with Protoss players exploiting things like that, we need to see them and Blizzard needs to hear about them, to consider any changes after all.
 
A

Aaron

Member
Watching the Has vs Bomber games, Has had both of those cold. Only his micro was TERRIBLE. Bomber didn't do anything special aside from a little juking. If Parting had been in control of the protoss, he would have made Bomber look like QXC.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Zen said:
I picked that game because it was funny. Testy testy. And as for the quoted, well duh that's why I provided the link to group d which you probably haven't watched.
Click to expand...

I kind of assumed that you linked to the replay in question and not just one of Jaedong losing because he played terribly. The other clip you linked is 2 hours long, so i figured you linked straight to the moment you were talking about.

Crimsonlink said:
The 3rd game is the real controversy though. A 6 pylon wall and JD answered with pulling Drones to bring them down or suffer from cannon fire and being contained.

I do not see JD being greedy in game 3. Going Hatch first is not greedy in PvZ or ZvT for the most part and JD got his pool at 15 vs a greedy 3 hatch before pool.

Putting down spines right away and keep mining with the drone probably would have been the better answer to this build but JD never faced it.

Protoss safely expanded behind the wall and to add insult to injury build 4 cannons to protect the expo.

JD took his expo back with minimal losses because he needed the income and production. He put the spines on the bottom base which his big mistake. Protoss simply had too much of an advantage though with 7 gates and warp prism being a flying pylon.

If it was so easy then JD should have held it Adventureracing. I really don't see where his greed let him lose to the build.

Game in question

There are a lot of bad feelings and complaints against protoss players lately. Has sadly has to deal with the ire of a popular player like JD's fans.

Also Has did beat lots of foreingers and Koreans to get where he was before Bomber sent him back down. The main issue a lot of people felt is that Has abused the Protoss ability of pressure to make an unfair match for JD. Now is it fair for Has? That is something I can't say for certain.
Click to expand...

So in other words JD lost to a cannon rush. There are plenty of ways to do a cannon rush just as effective in fact probably much more so on other maps. There is no controversy here except that JD lost.

That was a really fun game. He came up with a strat where mr bitter was laughing at him for even thinking it could work and pulled it off.

As for the complaints against protoss players, so? Zergs have been complaining about protoss since the release of the game including periods where they were clearly the better the race. PvZ at the moment is pretty even and JD losing to a cannon rush doesn't make me think otherwise.

The fact that people are upset because JD lost doesn't really sway me.

Also JD did not handle that the way he should have. Pulling basically all his drones for that long only to realise it had no effect put him behind where he needed to be.

Zen said:
I'm fine with Protoss players exploiting things like that, we need to see them and Blizzard needs to hear about them, to consider any changes after all.
Click to expand...

There was nothing wrong with that game and blizzard shouldn't and won't make any changes based on it or games like (which there have been since the beginning of SC2).
 
Z

Zen

Banned
You might find watching cheese after cheese wins to be entertaining, but it gets really old to me after a while. :\ Group D was way too much in terms of gimmicky play, 2 base all ins, outright cheeses, it just gets old. Sure back in the BW the reigning champs were usually equally as good at both styles, but there so many more 'gotcha' situations in SCII (mostly dealing with Protoss) which is probably why we don't really have any long term reigning champions like the old days.

I can't even remember the last time I saw a TvT transition into BC Raven Viking Wars with tank/ground support (though that's a separate issue).

And yeah, there was something wrong with that game, if you take it in conjunction with the games seen in Group D as a whole, at least for people that are hoping to find long matches with interesting back and forth, I really disagree that JD was being greedy, either.
 
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unknownstranger

Member
Be honest, did either Arthur or Has have a chance at beating Bomber or Jaedong in a macro game? No shit they're gonna cheese and they should have been prepared. I had fun watching some different cheeses. Being able to cannon 2 bases from basically 1 spot on Alterzim was something I've never seen. Watching Has do 3 proxies in one game was hilarious to watch for the ridiculousness of it. Both times Protoss took the gold base on Habitation Station against Bomber weren't really cheeses since they never got any tech, and if he scouted it sooner he would have had an easier time both times.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Zen said:
You might find watching cheese after cheese wins to be entertaining, but it gets really old to me after a while. :\ Group D was way too much in terms of gimmicky play, 2 base all ins, outright cheeses, it just gets old. Sure back in the BW the reigning champs were usually equally as good at both styles, but there so many more 'gotcha' situations in SCII (mostly dealing with Protoss) which is probably why we don't really have any long term reigning champions like the old days.
Click to expand...

We don't? In WoL we certainly had players that stayed at the top for a long time. Even now we still have players who stay very close to the top or at the top for long periods. You can't really compare it to BW because BW had so few tournaments compared to SC2 and they were also a totally different format.

SC2 is also a game where the metagame is still evolving. How consistent were the top players in BW after just 1 year on the market? SC2 still hasn't even had its final expansion yet.

The top players aren't all that different from the top ones in BW. The ones who rely on allins and cheese generally struggle to stay anywhere near the top especially for any decent length of time.

Zen said:
I can't even remember the last time I saw a TvT transition into BC Raven Viking Wars with tank/ground support (though that's a separate issue).
Click to expand...

Because the metagame has changed. We still see plenty of long TvT's and the short ones are very entertaining. That plus in general we just see a whole lot less TvT's than we used to.

Zen said:
And yeah, there was something wrong with that game, if you take it in conjunction with the games seen in Group D as a whole, at least for people that are hoping to find long matches with interesting back and forth, I really disagree that JD was being greedy, either.
Click to expand...

Like we see constantly in both code S and proleague. Just because one night of WCS in one region was filled with allins and cheese doesn't really mean anything. I thought the main complaint right now was that games were too long.

Which game are we talking about? When i said about JD being greedy i assumed we were talking about the DT game in which case he absolutely was.

The other game he lost because he didn't scout the cannon rush and then didn't react properly. I doubt he faces all that many, especially not like that. In general pro players (including protoss) tend to handle cannon rushes really poorly.

unknownstranger said:
Be honest, did either Arthur or Has have a chance at beating Bomber or Jaedong in a macro game? No shit they're gonna cheese and they should have been prepared. I had fun watching some different cheeses. Being able to cannon 2 bases from basically 1 spot on Alterzim was something I've never seen. Watching Has do 3 proxies in one game was hilarious to watch for the ridiculousness of it. Both times Protoss took the gold base on Habitation Station against Bomber weren't really cheeses since they never got any tech, and if he scouted it sooner he would have had an easier time both times.
Click to expand...

Also this. You're talking about players who are completely outclassed by their opponents, trying to play macro games against potentially the 2 best players in the world for their race would have been silly. Bomber and Jaedong should really be going into series like that expecting cheese. I also find series with strange cheeses a lot of fun. Despite what has been said here, creative and unique cheeses are rare and tend to be hard to pull off. I enjoy it when players actually do it.
 
A

Aaron

Member
unknownstranger said:
Be honest, did either Arthur or Has have a chance at beating Bomber or Jaedong in a macro game?
Click to expand...
Sure. Protoss still have a clear advantage late game, especially against terran. Of course they're going to cheese though since it's so easy for protoss, and there's basically no penalty for it unless you completely mess it up like Has did against Bomber.

There's also a big difference between expecting cheese and being capable of overcoming it. If Has hadn't played sloppy and let his units just die he would have crushed Bomber, despite his bunkers and pumping out units.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Aaron said:
Sure. Protoss still have a clear advantage late game, especially against terran. Of course they're going to cheese though since it's so easy for protoss, and there's basically no penalty for it unless you completely mess it up like Has did against Bomber.

There's also a big difference between expecting cheese and being capable of overcoming it. If Has hadn't played sloppy and let his units just die he would have crushed Bomber, despite his bunkers and pumping out units.
Click to expand...

You've got to be joking that protoss have a clear late game advantage against zerg. Like seriously that's just straight up nonsense. I'm sorry but i don't know how else to respond to that.

Also no, neither player had any chance against bomber or Jaedong in a macro game. You actually believe that? The imbalance between the races is nowhere near that big and most of it tends to come in the early game.

Edit: This discussion is far too broad. Are we talking about that cannon rush, JD's performance, the way group D played out, the general balance of SC2, the design of the protoss race, the effect of cheese and it's presence in the metagame? It's very difficult to narrow things down as some of these topics require a lot to breakdown just on there own let alone all of them in one post.
 
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unknownstranger

Member
Aaron said:
Sure. Protoss still have a clear advantage late game, especially against terran. Of course they're going to cheese though since it's so easy for protoss, and there's basically no penalty for it unless you completely mess it up like Has did against Bomber.

There's also a big difference between expecting cheese and being capable of overcoming it. If Has hadn't played sloppy and let his units just die he would have crushed Bomber, despite his bunkers and pumping out units
Click to expand...

I didn't see the first 2 games of Bomber vs Arthur but Bomber only got cheesed once in the 3 games I watched. You keep saying cheesing is so easy for Protoss but then you instantly discredit one of the best Terran for destroying Has' cheese.

This kind of whining is why I've tried to detach myself from players/groups in sports, so I can enjoy them and appreciate them without being blinded by some bias against a certain one.
 
D

danielcw

Member
Zen said:
His first OV just makes it to the natural to see no forge no expo as the pylons are going down, I don't think he could have gotten OV scouting any earlier.

Does a drone scout set Z behind too much to be worth it in the MU?
Click to expand...

I don't know, if drones are worth it.
But I think they are better scouts. If you have time, you could micro alot, and see more then an OV could see.


But my suggestion would be way simpler.
As soon as he saw the 5 or 6 pylons, he could have cancelled the expansion,
and go one base, and build from there.


Now, as I said before in this thread, and not good at these things, so I expect you to argue me down.
Please do it in a way I can learn something wrong.
 
D

Draft

Member
JD lost to good old fashioned cheese. That's not Protoss OP cheese like storm and oracle. That's not Protoss SC2 design cheese like warp gate and force field. That is good old fashioned been possible since day one of pre-BW cheese. Has unleashed a weird cannon rush and JD reacted poorly. Funny stuff, not indicative of the larger questions on Protoss design or balance.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
AdventureRacing said:
We don't? In WoL we certainly had players that stayed at the top for a long time. Even now we still have players who stay very close to the top or at the top for long periods. You can't really compare it to BW because BW had so few tournaments compared to SC2 and they were also a totally different format.

SC2 is also a game where the metagame is still evolving. How consistent were the top players in BW after just 1 year on the market? SC2 still hasn't even had its final expansion yet.

The top players aren't all that different from the top ones in BW. The ones who rely on allins and cheese generally struggle to stay anywhere near the top especially for any decent length of time.
Click to expand...

Everything you're saying is true, but that doesn't stop SCII from being far more volatile than BW on a gameplay basis, and when even Artosis will list your reasons and say 'but-' on an episode of Meta, forgive me if I deffer to people like him "but-" I'm going to side with that sentiment from people like him.

Like we see constantly in both code S and proleague. Just because one night of WCS in one region was filled with allins and cheese doesn't really mean anything. I thought the main complaint right now was that games were too long.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the implication. Blizzard sees far more toss cheeses than other races and their recent baalnce patches were aimed at making Terran stronger in the mid game but also trying to soft weaken some Protoss cheeses in TvP. Mothership core nerf for instance better punishes sloppy Protoss players, the Blink cooldown would have allowed Terrans to do more damage on stalkers before a blink out/back.

Given how much every race complains about Protoss all in options, don't be surprised if we see a few broader changes to help address that in LoTV, much like the MSC was added to add Toss in early defense in TvP (but maybe was too effective!).

The other game he lost because he didn't scout the cannon rush and then didn't react properly. I doubt he faces all that many, especially not like that. In general pro players (including protoss) tend to handle cannon rushes really poorly.
Click to expand...

Are you joking? He scouted the Cannon Rush as fast as he could with overlord scouting and didn't confirm no natural expo until the pylon wall was going down, and he realized with a tight wall off that he couldn't make a base anywhere else, so he responded as quickly and powerfully as possible.

Should Jaedong have ignored the walloff and kept mining? Haas probably would obstacle/pylon jumped the probe over once the first cannon was done. If Jaedong didn't attack, Haas wouldn't have had to spend 500 minerals defending with new blocks in the wall, he could have instantly thrown down a bunch of cannons in range of the hatch gaurded by at worst 1 cannon (probably 2?).

http://youtu.be/gRUD9jSPqaU

Also this. You're talking about players who are completely outclassed by their opponents, trying to play macro games against potentially the 2 best players in the world for their race would have been silly. Bomber and Jaedong should really be going into series like that expecting cheese. I also find series with strange cheeses a lot of fun. Despite what has been said here, creative and unique cheeses are rare and tend to be hard to pull off. I enjoy it when players actually do it.
Click to expand...

Well that's your opinion, but you also enjoy facing Protoss when the general consensus seems to be from the community that they just aren't fun to engage on a mechanical level. Protoss has so many creative cheeses that they all kind of blur together into 'bad game design' after a while. Not to say that toss isn't fun to face ever, but they're a huge headache sometimes in ways that the other two races could never be. Normally I enjoy creative cheeses (and I actually enjoyed that game!) but overall my appreciation has waned as many of the cheeses/all ins are all too figured out and often as of late.

And if you don't think that progamers seem to agree, just remember that Artosis and Tasteless Wolf/Kaldor have all mentioned 'take the mood about Protoss in NA/EU and multiply this by 10 for Korea, or watch the recent race wars or any tournament where pro gamers can talk during their matches. XD

Draft said:
JD lost to good old fashioned cheese. That's not Protoss OP cheese like storm and oracle. That's not Protoss SC2 design cheese like warp gate and force field. That is good old fashioned been possible since day one of pre-BW cheese. Has unleashed a weird cannon rush and JD reacted poorly. Funny stuff, not indicative of the larger questions on Protoss design or balance.
Click to expand...

It is when it's just representative of how much cheese Protoss has, and Haas could have sentry drop and force fielded the ramp properly in that game and just won it even if JD has the spines in his main. Part 2 could have been executed to make it impossible for JD to win even with better preparation.

danielcw said:
I don't know, if drones are worth it.
But I think they are better scouts. If you have time, you could micro alot, and see more then an OV could see.


But my suggestion would be way simpler.
As soon as he saw the 5 or 6 pylons, he could have cancelled the expansion,
and go one base, and build from there.


Now, as I said before in this thread, and not good at these things, so I expect you to argue me down.
Please do it in a way I can learn something wrong.
Click to expand...

Huh, didn't really consider that, maybe someone else can fill in with supposition.

AdventureRacing said:
You've got to be joking that protoss have a clear late game advantage against zerg. Like seriously that's just straight up nonsense. I'm sorry but i don't know how else to respond to that.
Click to expand...

?

I've see far more deathball to gg late games than I have Zergs winning with a muta switch or what have you.
 
A

Aaron

Member
I pledge from here on NO MORE IMBA TALK from me. It's like an argument on Facebook. No matter who is right, everyone ends up looking worse for it. Talking about the upcoming patch and how those changes might go is fine, but I'm going to try very hard to never again imply one race has a clear advantage over another.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
Might as well keep things happy here and vent elsewhere, I spose, like not on the internet. You are right, that level of this discussion isn't fun or constructive/healthy for SCIIGaf. Maybe it has a place in the WCS threads when talking about the games, but I'll try to keep multi paragraph quote wars to a minimum in here. That said, it's a mistake to just subscribe to 'only focus on improving, the game is fine!' mentality, but there are far better ways to go about it.

At least Blizzard will be getting the message and the more people that complain the better. Even in Huks Vlog he talks about how people loved to hate on different races at different times but each of his examples (like Zerg with Brood Infestor) were legitimate problems with the game! Actually his analysis of game 3 is wrong in general, (scouting time, minerals lost, basically everything, compares it to WoL bunker ush which also got a nerf) which really pokes a hole in his 'people don't know what they're talking about' argument. The community also largely complained about overlord speed making scouting so hard, and eventually Blizzard changed that as well. People have such vitriol against Protoss because they've been a pain in the ass from day one and it seems like only now is Blizzard getting around to listening and realizing that the hate stems from complaints against the fundamental design of the race, not simply 'balance'.

Thankfully Blizzard is more receptive these days and I welcome the changes that LoTV will hopefully bring because of the consistent negative feedback Blizzard is now listening to about Protoss. It has been a problem from the start of WoL, but the racial design issues are only worse now.

Maybe one day EJ will post again.

Also I apologize for opening the discussion up by simply calling toss 'stupid', I'm usually better than that and it was needlessly inflammatory.

Mass EDIT: But since this is the last time I'll touch on this so bluntly in this thread might as well get everything off my chest.

Huks analysis was pretty silly, even if he was right on the specifics (he wasn't) he really misses the point of why people dislike Protoss so much from a design perspective. No one is saying that the build is OP or can't be stopped, the problem is that it's so insanely easy to do, just like all of Toss early game cheeses or all ins. The problem is, to put it bluntly, that the 6 pylon rush is really really stupid (oops I did it again). It's a build that doesn't rely on skill (say what will will of terran 2 proxy rax TvP, it isn't exactly easy). Once the pylons started going down (and this likely would have happened even if Jaedong had a OV spotting outside his natural FYI) you could have put in any run of the mill diamond league Toss and they would have been able to kill Jaedong doing the exact same thing.

And to see these kinds of games, over and over again for years, makes Toss a very silly race, almost completely separate from 'balance' concerns. People raged at Blink Stalker All ins even when toss was under powered in WoL. It's just a really stupid situation to be caught in for an RTS, much like how Force-fields can just be win buttons with no options to micro against them once they are down.

This post basically encompasses my thought, maybe not quite as harsh but very close to it

I don't think people should hate all Protoss players like they seem to. Until you get very very highly rated, this is just a game, and people have the right to enjoy it however they damn well please.
Blizzard, on the other hand, have a certain responsibility to the playerbase and professionals who earn their living from this game. I have to wonder what StarCraft would be like if Protoss simply didn't exist.. because it's gotten to a point, now, where the atrocious design is evident. Terran has always been (since vanilla) the "best" race of StarCraft in terms of balance. Everything clicks together so logically: floating your buildings to swap add-ons. Biological units have lots of useful upgrades. Mechanical units have incredible diversity. There are multiple paths a Terran can take in a game, ranging from mobile, harassing play to slowly sieging up an entire side of the map, to complete proxy aggression.
You can't hold Protoss, in terms of design, up to Terran and even see them as from the same game. Nothing "fits" about Protoss the way it does with Terran and Zerg. It's like Blizzard tried to give it all the opportunities that Terran have, for the sake of balance, but forgot to actually make it logical. There's something missing: Protoss build orders are never as clear (compare: "14 pool/CC" or "11/11 rax" to "Immortal-Sentry" or "Blink Stalker all-in"). The reason that Protoss builds are less defined like that is because Protoss lacks "completion" or "wholeness" mechanics like what Terran has with lift-off or Zerg has with larvae spawning -- and countless other Terran and Zerg nuances which provide such a logical "flow" to their build orders that they can be refined by Korean geniuses to the point of absolute perfection (look no further than that Taeja vs. Innovation game 3 of WCS Season 2 for evidence of this).
Protoss has only had this to a very small extent, from people like PartinG with their Immortal-Sentry. Even then, builds like those can have a totally different outcome based on one or two forcefields. Refined builds that a Terran might do have a completely different outcome based on literally having one less Marine at a precise time. Therein lies the problem: it's like Blizzard realized that Terran and Zerg are so much more accurate with their timings and simply gave up on toss. Figured they needed a way of keeping them in the game; so they handed them a mechanic (in this case, forcefields) which solves the problem on a surface level.
On a deeper level, though, those little incongruencies bubble up until they're ready to burst -- and this comes while Terran and Zerg are closer to "figuring out" the game, in a Brood War sense, than they ever were with WoL. Then the bubbles do burst: Protoss players, in studying the game like a Terran or Zerg might, find some little "cheapy" tactic which helps them win, they get satisfied, and they abuse it. What this does is completely devalue StarCraft as a game, because Protoss simply is not as polished a race as Terran and Zerg. Their mechanics, like warp-in and forcefields, have clearly not been thought out by Blizzard as much as Terran and Zerg mechanics; and often they result in entirely unpredictable games. An unpredictable game can, of course, be exciting, but it is infinitely moreso when the reason that it's unpredictable is how the players are handling their units and resources; far less so when the reason is simply that the mechanics of the game, at a fundamental level, don't "fit in" or make sense in the context.
People will probably say that I am complaining too much, that cheese makes a game interesting. This is true, but I'm not just talking about cheese. For example, take Arthur vs. Bomber today. That was a fifteen-minute Blink all-in. By definition, it really shouldn't be called "a cheese" because it took so incredibly long. Yet, because of strange mechanics in the way the Protoss race was thought out, the game simply unfolded that way. Not because of how Bomber reacted to the build, or how Arthur followed-up. Simply because of the very first decision that Arthur made, his build order.
It's a little saddening, because Terran and Zerg really do embody everything that is beautiful about an RTS -- Terran especially. It almost makes me wonder if the game would be far further along if Terran and Zerg didn't have to spend time figuring out a race that, in its current shape, isn't compatible with StarCraft, and I honestly think that the answer is yes. It's regrettable, because Protoss was pretty great in StarCraft I. It's hard to envision a StarCraft without that badass spiritual-warrior-laser beams race. That's why I really hope Blizzard completely redesigns Protoss. I know that they won't, but the best thing they could possibly do is hire a bunch of pro-gamers and coaches, and rebuild the race from scratch, the right way.
Click to expand...

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1z1u0l/protoss/cfpuuze
 
K

kasane

Member
protoss is so broken and stoopid

ok i kid :D

I`m just playing random now a days not taking ladder srsly

i think its more healthy for me to do that and i`ll take dota srsly since im more experienced there
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
Zen said:
Everything you're saying is true, but that doesn't stop SCII from being far more volatile than BW on a gameplay basis, and when even Artosis will list your reasons and say 'but-' on an episode of Meta, forgive me if I deffer to people like him "but-" I'm going to side with that sentiment from people like him.
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I really don't understand the last part there means. I agree that SC2 is more volatile than BW, i'm just saying the amount of tournaments and tournament formats exaggerate that.

Zen said:
I think you're missing the implication. Blizzard sees far more toss cheeses than other races and their recent baalnce patches were aimed at making Terran stronger in the mid game but also trying to soft weaken some Protoss cheeses in TvP. Mothership core nerf for instance better punishes sloppy Protoss players, the Blink cooldown would have allowed Terrans to do more damage on stalkers before a blink out/back.
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Yeah they were aimed at balancing cheeses that were actually really strong. Cannon rushes have been around since the beta and good players for the most part don't lose to them. It's a risky strat that more often than not doesn't pay off (and generally relies on not being scouted or your opponent making mistakes).

I'm not saying i disagree with your general assessments. The problem i have is using JD losing to 2 completely defendable builds is somehow an example of that.

Zen said:
Given how much every race complains about Protoss all in options, don't be surprised if we see a few broader changes to help address that in LoTV, much like the MSC was added to add Toss in early defense in TvP (but maybe was too effective!).
Click to expand...

I've said for a long time that i don't like the design of protoss and i agree that it needs a radical overhaul.

Zen said:
Are you joking? He scouted the Cannon Rush as fast as he could with overlord scouting and didn't confirm no natural expo until the pylon wall was going down, and he realized with a tight wall off that he couldn't make a base anywhere else, so he responded as quickly and powerfully as possible.
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No i'm not kidding. Is an overlord the only way to scout a cannon rush? Maybe zergs should go back to using a drone to look for cannons if they don't have an overlord there. It's your own fault if you don't know a cannon rush is coming until you scout your opponents natural.

Zen said:
Well that's your opinion, but you also enjoy facing Protoss when the general consensus seems to be from the community that they just aren't fun to engage on a mechanical level. Protoss has so many creative cheeses that they all kind of blur together into 'bad game design' after a while. Not to say that toss isn't fun to face ever, but they're a huge headache sometimes in ways that the other two races could never be. Normally I enjoy creative cheeses (and I actually enjoyed that game!) but overall my appreciation has waned as many of the cheeses/all ins are all too figured out and often as of late.
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Most players in the community are blind drones who barely think for themselves when it comes to strats. I like facing protoss because i actually look for holes in the way players do things at my level. From diamond and below protoss players make a ton of easily exploitable mistakes whilst trying to copy pro builds they can't pull off.

I agree with you that it sucks watching protoss cheese that can't really be stopped. Blink allins are too powerful and difficult to stop even if you scout them. This is why i'm so happy to see them getting weakened. DT rushes against zerg are garbage and cannon rushes are rare and easily defended when scouted. I have no problem with them or the games involving JD.

Zen said:
And if you don't think that progamers seem to agree, just remember that Artosis and Tasteless Wolf/Kaldor have all mentioned 'take the mood about Protoss in NA/EU and multiply this by 10 for Korea, or watch the recent race wars or any tournament where pro gamers can talk during their matches. XD
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I know this is the case. It just sucks that basically every single thing you read regarding SC2 is about that. What annoys me more is people blindly complaining about protoss when it doesn't make any sense. There are problems with protoss and PvT right now is silly but that doesn't mean every single time a protoss player wins that it's just bullshit.

Zen said:
?
I've see far more deathball to gg late games than I have Zergs winning with a muta switch or what have you.
Click to expand...

Right now PvZ is pretty much even in terms of win rates. Protoss has the advantage in the early game with their allins so if they're also dominating the late game how are zergs winning at all?

PvZ lategame if anything slightly favours zerg at the top level. I'm willing to accept the argument that maybe protoss is slightly better but to imply the imbalance is enough to suddenly put Jaedong down on the same level as some random foreign player in macro games is ludicrous. It's that sort of whining that makes discussing SC2 so difficult. There are plenty of genuine things to complain about without making stuff up.

Zen said:
Maybe one day EJ will post again.
Click to expand...

Considering the stuff that drove him away has just gotten much, much worse since he left i find that unlikely.
 
A

AdventureRacing

Member
On an additional note did JD hatch first in that game? If so lol. And you're right it's certainly not worth it, probably a big part of why this thread is completely dead now.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
I too have started simply linking the articles, ESEX is the best. I hope our LoL/Dota brothers are showing them the same appreciation.
 
S

Syf

Banned
Far from dead. SC2GAF is best GAF. I've been busy with exams this week, missed all the WCS matches. Any particularly awesome ones come to mind?
 
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