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[SamuraiX-]

LotV multiplayer update

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17944912

Experimenting with slowing down the pacing of combat in SC2

This is a topic we got a lot of community feedback on, so we did some heavy exploration in this area. The biggest thing we tried here was reducing the attack speed of each unit in the game by 40% and altering some damage values to compensate. Even though a change like this would seemingly have a huge implication on balance, we realized the gain wasn’t as big as we expected. Games feel different from before, but the main question has to be “Is this a positive change that makes games better?” We’re just not sure of this yet. For example, we’re seeing that slower engagements seem to reduce the skill component in combat. Additionally, games feel more dragged out than before. But we’ve only had limited testing at this point, so we’ll continue to explore this area in more detail before making a final call.

Horrible fucking idea. The pace of combat is an icon of SC2 and what makes it so fun to watch and play. This is way too much of a core gameplay redesign. Hope this gets scrapped ASAP.

Scan range experimentation

We've also seen some community feedback about changes that can be made to the scan range to increase the responsiveness of units in combat. We’ve made some adjustments internally and we’re initially liking how it plays out. This is something we’re planning on testing further in the beta.

Do they mean vision range? "Increase responsiveness to units in combat"?? the fuck? Who even asked for this? I don't think the vision range of units has ever been a case for concern. Besides the ridiculous sight range the MSC used to have, this has never been an issue.

HERC

The HERC has been removed.
The HERC redesign isn’t going as smoothly as we had hoped, and in our most recent build the HERC has been removed from the game. We’ve instead switched our focus from trying to make the HERC work to just going back to the drawing board to see what other new unit idea Terran can benefit from.

The latest design we’ve tested for this unit slot is a combat construction type of unit that travels with your army and constructs useful things mid-field to support your bio army. This among many other changes we’ve tried with the HERC hasn’t turn out well for us, but this is not surprising as it really takes a lot of time and effort when it comes to new unit design iteration. We’ll continue to pursue potential new units that fit into the Terran army and we’d love to hear your feedback on this topic.

The redesign iteration they mention here would've been really cool. But I'm actually happy with this. The two new Terran units they've shown off haven't been appealing to me at all.

New Protoss Unit

As you may know, one of our main focus points since the last update has been working on the design of a new Protoss unit. Although not final yet, we have a unit and are very happy with how it is currently playing out. While we don’t yet have a name, we wanted to provide you with some details on this new unit:

It is a core gateway unit with a ground-only ranged attack and normal movement speed.
The unit has an ability that sends out a Shade of itself, and after a fixed duration, the unit teleports to the location of the Shade.
The Shade can independently move around, but cannot attack or be attacked, and does not impede upon the actions of the main unit.
We intend to offer a more in-depth look at this new unit in the near future.

Redundancy much? This effectively is a nerfed blinked Stalker that can't attack air units. I guess the Shades would be a nice way to scout ahead while moving your army but there better be limitations regarding maximum teleportation range and such.

Immortal

Barrier is no longer an upgrade
Damage absorbed has been reduced to 100 down from 200.
Immortal Barrier ability being an upgrade isn’t working out well for us, so we went back to no upgrade and reduced the damage absorbed. It was too buried in tech, and in order to use Immortals with max efficiency, you had to have the additional building. So we’re trying to just balance the unit without the ability being an upgrade.

Tempest

We’re considering changes that make the role more similar to the Heart of the Swarm Tempest.
We’re thinking the current changes may be too big of a redesign in terms of unit role. We’re leaning towards going back to the Heart of the Swarm Tempest with a couple of changes. Since we still don’t want Tempests to hard counter units like Brood Lords, Carriers, or Battlecruisers we’re looking to remove the +massive damage component and then add Disintegration.

I'm okay with these.

 

[unknownstranger]

Roach burrow change is interesting. Biggest problem right now with it is both Roach movement speed and burrow movement require Lair, making it take long to get both. Zerg still needs something to deal with death balls with the Swarm Hosts change.

 

[Syf]

Do they mean vision range? "Increase responsiveness to units in combat"?? the fuck? Who even asked for this? I don't think the vision range of units has ever been a case for concern. Besides the ridiculous sight range the MSC used to have, this has never been an issue.

I think they're talking about the scanning behavior of units on attack move command. There's a slight delay in response when attack moving vs target firing. You can see it in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxWYxysVBvI

If that's what they're changing, it'll be great.

 

[Tekniqs]

I liked the tactic by Maru in Game 1 to open mech and then transition into bio-mech. Would've been even better if he was able to coax Leenock into Swarm Host tech before revealing bio.



I don't think hatch before pool is that greedy. If any gas is taken before pool, then that's definitely greedy. But Leenock, wtf man. He delayed his natural expansion for so long in Game 2. Then Maru denied it until the 5 minute mark.

Yeah, a Zerg player in the quarterfinals of a Korean tournament shouldn't be so worried about getting quick Zergling speed to counter proxies. Just go for a slightly earlier pool and get Queens out. And Leenock even scouts everything that should've told him early aggression was coming from Maru and he's just sitting in his base picking his nose and droning.


Game 3 was entertaining. lol

Maru mind game'd the fuck outta Leenock. That gas started in the vision of the scouting Overlord's and then canceled. hah Leenock actually did a great job defending considering how late he saw the all in but Maru's micro in these situations is just too much. Those 4 banes that he had started morphing in his main shouldn't have been left alone to get canceled though. Those might've given him a chance.

is there a link to that series?

 

[SamuraiX-]

I think they're talking about the scanning behavior of units on attack move command. There's a slight delay in response when attack moving vs target firing. You can see it in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxWYxysVBvI

If that's what they're changing, it'll be great.

Ah ha, I see.

I'm kinda ok with how things are right now though. It feels like you're rewarded if you make the effort to target fire. Also, I feel like Stalker micro would be OP as hell in the early game if attack-move had the same response tie as target fire.

We'd start seeing Zealot + Stalker + MSC early aggression in every game of PvT. lol

is there a link to that series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGq0QoDvPuk&list=PLB3gIMUE4YP20nIsHJt2tK4mp5YZ24uDC

 

[Syf]

I guess we'll see how it plays out. I think it'll benefit all races and make units feel more responsive and reliable. But yeah it could end up making something imba.

Anyway, more info on the new protoss unit: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/16285109255?page=5#91

The Shade ability doesn't currently have manual activation, so it differs somewhat from Blink. The new Protoss unit will automatically teleport to the Shade once it expires rather than having the option to activate it early. There is also no way to cancel the teleportation once Shade has been activated.

The idea here is that players who are capable of perfectly timing the positioning of the Shade when it expires will be rewarded. You have to also consider that the Shade works like a separate unit, so you double the micro needed once it's activated. You still have to control your unit and then also control the Shade.

I dunno what to think. Sounds like another protoss gimmick tbh lol.

 

[SamuraiX-]

That's really sad if that's the best they could come up with for a new Protoss unit in the Protoss expansion of the game.

I don't know. Maybe they could actually turn it into something cool but at this point it's pretty disappointing.

 

[unknownstranger]

Protoss could use another ground unit but not like that. They need something that can chase bio better than Chargelots. That or increase the speed of Sentries so they could chase and Force Field them.

Zerg also desperately needs something better to deal with deathballs. I think Brood Lords could use a health buff. For a major unit (my version being costing 400+ resources) they have the lowest health by far. Even with the Tempest changes Terran and Protoss still have ways to out range them.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Sexiest Ro16 group in Code S going down tonight:

http://www.twitch.tv/gsl

lol I love Life. He picked YoDa and then YoDa picked TY and Life just said "If I lose now, I should probably just retire."

Then he picked Soulkey because he thinks he's good in ZvZ and he wanted a challenge.

Boss.

 

[unknownstranger]

LolYoda. Proxy 2 Rax against the second greediest Zerg opener and still couldn't do shit.

 

[SamuraiX-]

somebody needs to nerf Life pls

so OP

so imba

 

[unknownstranger]

Lol that series.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Lol that series.

Culminating with some Tastosis sexy time.

lawd


At this rate, it'll be INnoVation vs Life in the Ro8.

That could very well be a fucking QUARTERfinal match. D:

 

[unknownstranger]

That was the most premature GG I've seen in awhile. TY was still probably dead but he still had a chance.

 

[survivor]

Finished watching the available videos on youtube, how the fuck did Life even manage to win against 2rax with his opening, man this guy.

 

[unknownstranger]

Finished watching the available videos on youtube, how the fuck did Life even manage to win against 2rax with his opening, man this guy.

Yoda didn't bunker his main and once the Marines got surrounded it was basically over. Life also had really fast gas and got a quick Baneling's Nest to burst through the bunker wall.

 

[Tekniqs]

Culminating with some Tastosis sexy time.

lawd


At this rate, it'll be INnoVation vs Life in the Ro8.

That could very well be a fucking QUARTERfinal match. D:

hey i was watching old highlights of SC2 and Innovation was being touted as THE god of SC2. How's his play lately? Would love to see him and Life play if Innovation is still up to par.

 

[unknownstranger]

hey i was watching old highlights of SC2 and Innovation was being touted as THE god of SC2. How's his play lately? Would love to see him and Life play if Innovation is still up to par.

He's been really good lately. Also they will play in the round of 8 in GSL.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Horrible fucking idea. The pace of combat is an icon of SC2 and what makes it so fun to watch and play. This is way too much of a core gameplay redesign. Hope this gets scrapped ASAP.

It's one of the main complaints leveled against the game since it's release and it's also one of the major design flaws with the game. It's why game snowball so quickly and can end in the blink of an eye. Just because they're slowing down the pace of the battles doesn't mean we will lose the awesome micro moments either, just look at BW. I don't think i could possibly disagree with you more here.

 

[Syf]

I think the engagements do need to be slowed down, but hard nerfing attack speed isn't the right way to do it. Feel like just lowering damage dealt (or buffing health) would be enough. That way you wouldn't lose the feel of the units. Lowering attack speed by 40% seems stupid. Of course that will make the game feel slow.

 

[SamuraiX-]

hey i was watching old highlights of SC2 and Innovation was being touted as THE god of SC2. How's his play lately? Would love to see him and Life play if Innovation is still up to par.

Yeah, INno used to go by the name Bogus and when transitioning to SC2 he was just an overall solid Terran player. Then HotS was released and his emergence was upon us. So began the era of his imba Hellbat dominance. I lost count at the number of team all-kills he racked up in Proleague. Even after the nerf he still had plenty of top 4 finishes in big tournaments throughout 2013 but last year he just began to fade into obscurity. I'm pretty sure everyone thought he was done playing at an elite level. And then out of nowhere he just wins a GSL. lol

I think it's fair to say that he has the absolute best mechanics of any Terran in the game. If you ever get a chance to watch his stream, you're in for a treat. It always feels like I'm watching through the eyes of a cyborg that's been hardwired into the game. His APM is just as high as any player that would spam in the early game, but every move he makes looks so purposeful and calculated.

The top 3 Terrans in the world right now are Maru, MMA and INnoVation, so if you want to learn tactics and strategies or even steal some clean timing buildings you can't go wrong following any of them.

The problem is that Life is hands down the best SC2 player in the world right now so I wouldn't have high hopes for INno's match with him. He's looking even stronger than he did during the time of his emergence in 2012, which is fucking scary. At this point, with nothing but Bo5s and Bo7s in his way, it's hard to imagine anybody stopping Life from taking home the GSL and SSL championships for this season.

 

[Aaron]

With Life, it's almost a matter of pure speed. He's so damned fast. Only Maru comes close.

 

[Tekniqs]

Yeah, INno used to go by the name Bogus and when transitioning to SC2 he was just an overall solid Terran player. Then HotS was released and his emergence was upon us. So began the era of his imba Hellbat dominance. I lost count at the number of team all-kills he racked up in Proleague. Even after the nerf he still had plenty of top 4 finishes in big tournaments throughout 2013 but last year he just began to fade into obscurity. I'm pretty sure everyone thought he was done playing at an elite level. And then out of nowhere he just wins a GSL. lol

I think it's fair to say that he has the absolute best mechanics of any Terran in the game. If you ever get a chance to watch his stream, you're in for a treat. It always feels like I'm watching through the eyes of a cyborg that's been hardwired into the game. His APM is just as high as any player that would spam in the early game, but every move he makes looks so purposeful and calculated.

The top 3 Terrans in the world right now are Maru, MMA and INnoVation, so if you want to learn tactics and strategies or even steal some clean timing buildings you can't go wrong following any of them.

The problem is that Life is hands down the best SC2 player in the world right now so I wouldn't have high hopes for INno's match with him. He's looking even stronger than he did during the time of his emergence in 2012, which is fucking scary. At this point, with nothing but Bo5s and Bo7s in his way, it's hard to imagine anybody stopping Life from taking home the GSL and SSL championships for this season.

link to his stream? all i've been watching have been MK micro highlights and ForGG

 

[AdventureRacing]

I think the engagements do need to be slowed down, but hard nerfing attack speed isn't the right way to do it. Feel like just lowering damage dealt (or buffing health) would be enough. That way you wouldn't lose the feel of the units. Lowering attack speed by 40% seems stupid. Of course that will make the game feel slow.

I'm not saying that particular implementation is the right one, i'm just disagreeing that the speed of battles is in anyway related to why SC2 is enjoyable to watch. It's the biggest detriment to watching and playing SC2. It's completely demoralizing watching the army you've spent ages building die in seconds (depending on your level by the time you even look at your army it could be game over). When watching the game it's also awful having games decided in seconds, back and forth games are what starcraft is all about and the speed of the battles have always acted counter to that.

 

[unknownstranger]

I'm not saying that particular implementation is the right one, i'm just disagreeing that the speed of battles is in anyway related to why SC2 is enjoyable to watch. It's the biggest detriment to watching and playing SC2. It's completely demoralizing watching the army you've spent ages building die in seconds (depending on your level by the time you even look at your army it could be game over). When watching the game it's also awful having games decided in seconds, back and forth games are what starcraft is all about and the speed of the battles have always acted counter to that.

I'd say it's the biggest advantage to watching other than when someone turtles. Watching a massive battle and seeing who has the better micro to come out ahead is the best part. Playing it however is part of why I never got too seriously into it. Having a massive army destroyed in seconds can be really demoralizing and I already have depression which having that happen would just add on to it.

 

[Tekniqs]

goddamn, storm DESTROYS me

huge army/resource lead...got vikings to counter his 4 colossi...took out most of his army....took down his natural and 3rd (which he rebuilt later on)....HTs came out and that was GG me...i tried EMP'ing them but I don't know if some whiffed or what. but man....fuck Ororo for reals lol

 

[unknownstranger]

Watching Proleague finals, that game made no sense to me. Cure blind countered wrong, lost a bunch of SCV's, and still had more supply. Dream had his CC delayed a few times but he must have stopped building SCV's until his finished.

 

[Aaron]

Back and forth worker battle.

 

[Aaron]

Nydus elevator! Soooo good!

 

[SamuraiX-]

Wow, Dark took out sOs, Rogue and Maru back-to-back-to-back?

Looks like he's returned to form already. lol

I can't believe SKT didn't even have to send out INno.

 

[HellBlazer]

Welp, Dark is back on point. Too bad for him that he didn't play that well in individual leagues recently.

Nice to see Soo back and winning a game too.

Watching Proleague finals, that game made no sense to me. Cure blind countered wrong, lost a bunch of SCV's, and still had more supply. Dream had his CC delayed a few times but he must have stopped building SCV's until his finished.

Yeah man, I still don't understand what happened there. Cure takes very severe worker losses early on, counters with rather ineffective banshee harass, then... somehow he's suddenly up in supply and has enough army to both attack and defend at the same time. How? :|

 

[SamuraiX-]

Yeah, Dream wasn't being consistent with his SCV production. His macro looked completely off that game as well.

Also, Dream really needs to tone it down on doom drops. I've seen him try them in every TvT he's played now and he just doesn't understand when and how to pull them off effectively. He needs to learn to just take a lead, have patience and not worry about finishing the game in an instant. His aggressive play style really gets the best of him in this match up.

 

[SamuraiX-]

And WCS Premier finally kicks off!

http://www.twitch.tv/wcs

Gogo Astrea! So that's what he looks like. Never actually seen his face before now. lol

 

[Syf]

Hoping for Snute and Astrea. It's kinda nice watching all foreigners instead of watching them get stomped by Koreans lol.

 

[SamuraiX-]

2 base Chargelot timing. lol

I don't even care that it ultimately failed, Astrea is a boss for trying to mix things up like that.

 

[Syf]

I'm trying that build on my barcode account lol

 

[HellBlazer]

Is there any news about when Proleague round 2 starts, and what the map pool will be?

 

[SamuraiX-]

Is there any news about when Proleague round 2 starts, and what the map pool will be?

There's generally a two week break between Round Finals and the start of a new round.

Round 1 Finals just concluded so Round 2 will probably start at the beginning of March.

I imagine the map pool will be similar to the current WCS/GSL map set.

 

[Syf]

WCS group B starts in ~45 mins. Expecting Polt to roll through the group but 2nd place is up for grabs. I've never seen this Brazilian Kelazhur play before, not sure what to expect.

 

[SamuraiX-]

WCS group B starts in ~45 mins. Expecting Polt to roll through the group but 2nd place is up for grabs. I've never seen this Brazilian Kelazhur play before, not sure what to expect.

Khelazhur has been one of my favorite up and coming players. He's definitely the best Brazilian player out there, which although isn't saying much he's always competing and making deep runs in weekly online cups.

The battle for second place in this group is gonna be an absolute blood bath. I imagine Jim will be the one to advance but TLO might surprise. Khelazhur is definitely the weakest, sadly.

 

[Syf]

Wow, that happened.

 

[unknownstranger]

So stupid of TLO to take that base as his 3rd. I'm also not sure he made a single Baneling that game.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Wow, TLO looks off. How do you go Roaches before Mutas against a Terran going bio on Catallena?

I'm glad I'm not a big fan of TLO. I'd be constantly depressed. The guy can have magnificent games followed up by platinum league tier games from match to match. Consistency has just never been there for him.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Not sure why anybody still tries Stargate openings will Oracle pressure against Polt. Does it ever work? The guy loves his 3rax openings way too much in TvP.

Edit: And less than 30 minutes into Game 2, we're suddenly into insanely late game TvP. How did this happen? lol

 

[unknownstranger]

Lol fun game.

 

[Syf]

Jim sets the bar for the most uncomfortable looking gaming posture.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Now that's more damn like it, TLO! Looks like he's woken up.

Jim sets the bar for the most uncomfortable looking gaming posture.

My vote still goes to Arthur:

Or Happy. You know how he leans his head forward and looks like he's giving the monitor the crazy eyes.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Hot damn, Kelazhur! That was some beautiful early pressure. The micro was just phenomenal.

He could actually come out first in this group here. If he has any pocket builds, now's the time to pull 'em out.

 

[clav]

Wow our group is empty.

Guess no one plays Starcraft any more.

 

[Syf]

Dang. Kel played very well today.