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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike

SamuraiX-

Member
Dang. Kel played very well today.

Yeah, he can't be too disappointed with himself. I mean, it'll probably sit on his conscience for a while that he was just a single map win away from advancing to the Ro16 either in 1st or 2nd place in his group, but 2-0'ing TLO and taking Polt to 3 maps is nothing to sulk over. Not to mention walking away with $4,500. I think he's in for a fantastic year.

Also cool to see that he's getting recognition now. I got a notification that he's got 8 new followers from the SC2 community on Twitter. :p


The next group coming up this Thursday should be fantastic: Bunny, viOLet, MaNa, and MajOr. I feel that all of those guys are on very equal footing. Literally any pair can make it out of the group.
 
I'd say it's the biggest advantage to watching other than when someone turtles. Watching a massive battle and seeing who has the better micro to come out ahead is the best part. Playing it however is part of why I never got too seriously into it. Having a massive army destroyed in seconds can be really demoralizing and I already have depression which having that happen would just add on to it.

That has nothing to do with how fast the armies die though. If anything i'd say it reduces the opportunities for players to showcase their micro because battles are so short. That plus it discourages players from actually engaging because often once you do the game is going to be won or lost. It would be nice to see players able to have a little more back and forth without the risk of one side suddenly being steamrolled because of a tiny error.

It's a combination of units dying too fast, clumping too much and the relative lack of a defenders advantage. Often times one side demolishes the other and then it's a matter of just rolling into their base for the win. Obviously this issue varies depending on matchup though.
 
That has nothing to do with how fast the armies die though. If anything i'd say it reduces the opportunities for players to showcase their micro because battles are so short.

I don't want every game being 30 minute+ slugfests. I like the diversity in game length because it keeps it from feeling stale.

That plus it discourages players from actually engaging because often once you do the game is going to be won or lost. It would be nice to see players able to have a little more back and forth without the risk of one side suddenly being steamrolled because of a tiny error.

This has more to do with game design than anything. Hopefully the changes in LotV (mainly the Swarm Host changes) will make turtling less viable.

It's a combination of units dying too fast, clumping too much and the relative lack of a defenders advantage. Often times one side demolishes the other and then it's a matter of just rolling into their base for the win. Obviously this issue varies depending on matchup though.

Units clumping is a combination of player micro and map design. If Blizz goes through with these changes I'm sure AoE will take a big hit but I'm not sure how they'll balance that, especially around Banelings.
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you

No I wont


mkpcry1.gif
 

calder

Member
Wow, grants to Kane!

Very honest interview, he was lucky a couple of times but good for him to stick in game two when it looked over. Gave himself a chance to fluke out a win.

I assume this is a rebroadcast? It must be like 6am in Europe where I assume they are, but I just started watching on twitch.
 

Lethe82

Banned
Total Biscuit: New major sponsor for Axiom in the pipeline. Exciting times.

Psione giving update on League-Distribution



Hi everyone,

I am back with another analysis; this time about the discrepancy of gas mining rates from different geyser positions. The phenomenon itself was described years ago in detail in Orek's excellent post. However, as far as I know, there has not been an explanation for that. My goal was to find one.

Basically the phenomenon is that some vespene geyser positions generate more income than others, even if symmetry would suggest that it is impossible. I recommend that if you should not be familiar with it, do read Orek's post, because it really covers everything you need to know about it.

The main idea is that the difference, that is, one gas position generating more income than another when they should yield the same, can come from the following reasons:
The workers spend more time inside the gas in some cases.
They spend more time travelling because they have to travel a shorter distance.
They spend more time travelling because they travel faster in some cases.
All three possibilities seem to be impossible; the first and third for obvious reasons, the second because of symmetry. One of them still has to be the case, though.

To find out which one, I used the Editor once again, as in my previous experiment.
Having compared two gas locations that should generate the same income but don't in fact, it turns out that workers always spend exactly 2 gs inside the gas building, and they travel the same distance approximately. In fact sometimes they travel a longer distance in shorter time to one geyser than to the other one.
This only leaves one possibility for the reason of this phenomenon, namely that units' movement properties depend on the angle they are facing.
That's right, a worker, and any other unit as well, moves faster in certain directions than in others, regarding both maximum speed and acceleration.This is very bad.

For detailed calculations and explanation, here is my usual pdf, and also in the spoiler tag below:

+ Show Spoiler +

Experiments show that units generally move and accelerate fastest around 225° and slowest around 45°. This seems to be the reason for the mining discrepancy between different gas positions. I have no idea why this happens, though.
I, personally, was very surprised to find this, so I wonder what you think about it. Also, any suggestions, criticism and ideas are appreciated .

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/478544-the-reasons-of-gas-mining-imbalance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny7MiakJo10

Really good show matches for Lotv really warming me up to how the game plays (more so than before).

BALANCE TEST EXTENSION SHOW MATCHES Vods are now on ToDs Youtube Channel

Matches were:

Snute vs. GoOdy - The mobility of mech versus Swarm Host Infestor, combined with all the plethora of skillshots (Thors pretty good against flying swarm host units), unit mcro, and using baiting units to proc the flying swarm hosts make it a really interesting and multi pronged situation with attacks happening all over the map. Feel free to skip the first ten minutes since it's a goody game but the meat of it is interesting.

Snute vs. Harstem

HyuN vs. SuperNova

So wait is blizzard thinking of changing the SH in Hots to their Lotv style? They're saying in these matches that they're changes in consideration for Hots?

EDIT: AH I see now
We’d like to give everyone an update on the current Balance Test Map and also address some of the recent Swarm Host stalemate situations going on.

On the Balance Test Map front:

There weren’t as many top level tournament games going on recently, so we’re unsure if what we were seeing towards the end of last year is still the case.
We’re getting mixed feedback on various issues these days on the pro side. For example, in TvZ we still receive a lot of pro feedback on how Zerg has a slight disadvantage. However, we’re also now hearing from others that Zerg players have adapted better to mid-game timing attacks and now have a slight advantage in the match-up.
We’re holding off on the proposed balance change for now until we can more clearly see what has changed in terms of match-up balance.

Rather than focusing on what occurred near the end of Season 3, please help us in focusing on what’s going on right now in the brand new season. We’ll continue to monitor the need for this change and provide further updates in the future.

Regarding the Swarm Host, we’d like to start testing two changes in a new Balance Test Map:

All Swarm Host changes from Void carried over to HotS.
Redesigned from a siege-tool to a mobile harass tool.
Spawn Locust can now be used while unburrowed, but must be manually activated.
Locusts have been buffed and can be upgraded at Tier 2 to fly over terrain. They must then swoop down to the ground to engage.

Raven Point Defense Drones duration decreasing to 20 seconds

Both of these changes are pretty significant, and while we typically avoid major design changes in balance updates, we feel it’s appropriate in this particular situation. Not only because we’d like to address the turtling scenarios, but also because we’ve already spent a lot of time on these changes internally.

However, we do have a few major concerns.

What happens to vs. Mech? Internally we are seeing that it’s a nerf and a buff. Nerf for obvious reasons, and buff because Locusts swooping down to a Siege Tank line can be deadly if executed at just the right time. But we would need to know more for certain through public balance testing to see the exact strengths/weaknesses of this change in this scenario.
What happens to mass Protoss air supported by High Templar? This is a bigger concern for us due to Locusts’ ability to zone out High Templar being greatly diminished. However, there will be a buff on the harassment front so we’re not sure where this will end up. Again, this is something that will need to be heavily tested, and we may need to make additional changes depending on how this turns out.
What happens to the highest pro level? This issue isn’t as critical of an issue at the highest levels of play, especially the games going on in Korea. Korea has more major tournaments this year, and these changes could negatively/unnecessarily affect that skill level. This will be another area that we’ll need to watch out for.

We feel we’ll need to dedicate a longer period of time to test out major changes like this before potentially pushing them out to the live game. More than ever, getting a large amount of external testing and feedback will be critical to our decision making process. We’ll do our best to contact pro-players around the world to get their feedback, but we ask that everyone put an especially high emphasis in testing out the changes. Without the help of our community and the pros, it won’t be possible to push out a change of this magnitude.

Thank you.

Sexy! (except maybe the raven nerf D:)

I'd like to see banshees get a slight change (I guess this would be in LotV tho). I find that StarBow banshees are pretty cool, Basically they can cloak but the cloak itself is on a cooldown and has something like a 3 second duration. It provides a lot of tactical consideration for when you use it. If they are giving cloak for free in LotV, I would like it if the early game cloak is very short in duration, and maybe you then have the option to upgrade to the 'standard' cloak later on. It makes the banshee harass and usage for micro based and more exciting for the viewer in the early game but then also gives the viewers and players the 'oh no they researched the cloak upgrade and this other player is being caught out' in more mech based compositions. There's more room for error which makes the game more dynamic and exciting.
 

Lethe82

Banned
"Rather than focusing on what occurred near the end of Season 3, please help us in focusing on what’s going on right now in the brand new season. We’ll continue to monitor the need for this change and provide further updates in the future."

Ok, what happened? XD
 

calder

Member
... and it's over already. Sen got crushed.

Yeah that was brutal. After game 1 I thought, well that timing was so perfectly executed and caught Sen so off guard I bet we'll see a longer game now... nope!

Seriously, how the hell do you get that many hellbats and a cloaked banshee on the way like 7-8 minutes in.
 

Won

Member
What was the reason it lasted so long yesterday? I saw it was still on 6 hours in, but didnt know why.

Also jeesus just end this.

I'm pretty sure no one watched the whole thing, so nobody really knows. I think it was a bunch of Happy vs swarmhosts games that added up.
 
Puck is playing way too scared. His army would annihilate Firecake's right now. Swarm Hosts aren't doing shit besides keeping High Templar back.

Why would you recall to your main...
 

calder

Member
Of all the many, many tactical/strategic mistakes from Puck in that series I think the 40 idle probes for over 5 minutes was the most glaring. Yesh.
 
I don't see how Zerg could deal with mech in LotV without Swarm Hosts. Flying Locusts will be about the only way Zerg can really deal with siege lines. The Ravager ability helps but it takes 3 to kill one tank.
 

SamuraiX-

Member
The PDD nerf will make turtling weaker but won't really effect much when attacking. 20 seconds is still plenty of time to kill a Zerg deathball. .

Any Zerg outside of gold league wouldn't be stupid enough to attack into a Terran army with Ravens that just laid down PDDs. It'll give Zergs huge advantages at pushing Terrans back and force Terrans to be more aggressive with PDDs to make sure they actually get something out of an engagement or in taking a position.

When Terrans start mass producing Ravens, they hardly ever used them for actually pushing Zerg bases. At that point they just accept that the map is gonna be mined out.
 
Any Zerg outside of gold league wouldn't be stupid enough to attack into a Terran army with Ravens that just laid down PDDs. It'll give Zergs huge advantages at pushing Terrans back and force Terrans to be more aggressive with PDDs to make sure they actually get something out of an engagement or in taking a position.

When Terrans start mass producing Ravens, they hardly ever used them for actually pushing Zerg bases. At that point they just accept that the map is gonna be mined out.

Zerg can rarely push mech back even without Ravens. This change will prevent Terran from sitting back doing nothing except for increasing their bank. This'll force them to be more aggressive and use Hellion/Banshee harass more often.
 

-COOLIO-

The Everyman
I don't see how Zerg could deal with mech in LotV without Swarm Hosts. Flying Locusts will be about the only way Zerg can really deal with siege lines. The Ravager ability helps but it takes 3 to kill one tank.

what about blinding cloud/yoink?

also, i expect ravanger, infestor, broodlord to have great anti mech synergy
 
what about blinding cloud/yoink?

also, i expect ravanger, infestor, broodlord to have great anti mech synergy

Depends on how heavy Terran goes on Vikings. If Terran mainly uses Thors for anti-air then it's usually not too hard to get Blinding Clouds off. If Terran builds 10-15 Vikings then it's nearly impossible to get Vipers close enough without them dying.
 

calder

Member
There is now SC2 player I've ever had more of a love/hate relationship with than naniwa. Absence must really make the esports heart grow fonder becaus I'm kinda rooting for Nani here?


Ahhh, he's losing to early aggression. Some things never ch- holy shit he won!?
 

Lethe82

Banned
Tuning in to SCII tournament for the first time in a while and I see Naniwa in WCS Premier League ro32? Sexy. It's good to be back. I was gone for so long basically because of all the overtime at the warehouse, and kind of had to take a break from SCII to focus on that, but things have quieted down a bit since.
 

SamuraiX-

Member
lol git rekt nanicunt

Awesome to see Serral do so well. He's always looked like a special Zerg player. Had no idea he was just 16.

Also, it's pretty hilarious to see Zergs dominating WCS when they're supposed to be the weakest race right now. lol
 
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