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[Jakoo]

In gaming. Indie devs can easily implement this change to gaming. They're not subject to the Hollywood effect of AAA games. Help create a better, more diverse environment for the gaming community.

While I agree with you in theory, I think this particular game might be a difficult one to expect it from. By all accounts, this game is an incredible achievement of overall design by a single person--if I recall, the guy did the coding, music, script writing and sprite work himself. Must we also expect this person to be an expert on writing for a diverse cast of characters from all walks of life, especially considering we don't know what personal experience he has interacting with different races?

If anything, I expect diversity more from AAA studios because they have the resources and (hopefully) diverse enough staff to competently write casts of characters from different walks of life. I guess I don't levy this expectation on a project such as this.

 

[Brakke]

Y'all "you should contact the dev directly" people are off the mark. Telling people the "right" way to be frustrated, especially when that way involves you not seeing their frustration personally, is lame af.

 

[Earthpainting]

This just sounds like you're looking to be offended OP, I mean if this game is based on traditional western agricultural communities, particularly European ones, then an almost uniformly white native population is just accurate.

I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think the OP meant it in a "I'm offended" way. It's more an unfortunate observation, rather than a public shaming or demand.

Racial diversity is definitely a subject that should come up more. We know the rural America, that it seems based on, is not known for its diversity. Having just the two black characters may even be generous in many of those communities. That said the game plays loose with realism already, even if you ignore the fairies and wizards. It shouldn't be holding the game back. I'm not sure if adding more black characters would necessarily be more fair or diverse though. There are many more ethnicities that are in dire need of representation as well, especially if you set your sights beyond the North American or European gaze.

My proposed solution is as follows: I think an Animal Crossing approach would work for a Harvest Moon game. Have just a pool of possible characters that the game picks for you when you start the game. Key characters will have to stay locked of course, but otherwise you could easily categorise them in "jobs". Characters could move out of town, and others could take their place. Having a dynamic society would fit with the diversity. You'd have no control over the ethnic distribution, which could remove the "token" word floating around the conversation.

Stardew Valley seems to be a pretty moddable game too. We could also work that angle a bit in the mean time, to give players a couple more black options already by tweaking existing characters. Could be a decent method of showing there is interest for it. I could look into some of the sprite sheets this evening.

You realize there's a plethora of mods to tailoring the game to your liking? I often feel its not necessarily the dev's responsibility when there's an active modding community which can easily (and happily) address your needs.

Ah, I was unaware of this. Could you perhaps link some?

 

[CryptiK]

"Click baity tone?" It just said the name of the game and something regarding the name.

Except he is wrong about the "Token minority character" part. Which is a topic that generally incites outrage.

 

[spineduke]

You realize there's a plethora of mods to tailoring the game to your liking? I often feel its not necessarily the dev's responsibility when there's an active modding community which can easily (and happily) address your needs.

 

[Bboy AJ]

You realize there's a plethora of mods to tailoring the game to your liking? I often feel its not necessarily the dev's responsibility when there's an active modding community which can easily (and happily) address your needs.

That's totally ignoring the purpose of this discussion on the lack of diversity in gaming. Should we have to build our own water fountains, too?

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

Except he is wrong about the "Token minority character" part. Which is a topic that generally incites outrage.

But the outrage is fabricated. OP wanted to create a discussion on diversity in indie games, and people are being strangely dismissive.

 

[whyman]

What does this mean, please explain

If the dev has not put more than 1 or 2 black people in the game it should not be a problem. It should not be forced on any developer to put more black people, white people or whatever in his/her game. Games like all other kinds of entertainment and art does not have to be diverse.

 

[blankempathy]

While Stardew Valley is a fantasy games its clearly a game inspired by real world places. Its pretty obvious most of the people living in the town have grown up there and probably their parents did as well. Sure you have a few who have moved there more recently like Leah but I always got a sense that the town is supposed to represent some small midwest town where everyone knows each other and hasn't been exposed to many other kinds of people. But we do see that thngs are slowly changing. One because the new generation of adults vary from their parents. Just pay attention to how different the younger people are to their folks. And then we have Joja mart trying to move in. Maybe its because of my own experiences in life but I've seen first hand that places like that exist. So not seeing minorities and different representations of cultures in Stardew valley never struck me as strange at all. Especially since the game is literally about returning to ones families roots.

 

[whyman]

That's totally ignoring the purpose of this discussion on the lack of diversity in gaming. Should we have to build our own water fountains, too?

That is just bait. Stop being silly and let's have a mature discussion about it.

 

[Brakke]

That is just bait. Stop being silly and let's have a mature discussion about it.

But you've already failed to do that, lol:

If the dev has not put more than 1 or 2 black people in the game it should not be a problem. It should not be forced on any developer to put more black people, white people or whatever in his/her game. Games like all other kinds of entertainment and art does not have to be diverse.

Nobody's talking about force. Certainly OP didn't.

 

[Bboy AJ]

That is just bait. Stop being silly and let's have a mature discussion about it.

You're pointing to the systemic lack of diversity in gaming as "my needs." No, this isn't BBoy AJ complaining. Lack of diversity is a huge pit fall in gaming and tremendously affects younger gamers. Let's have a mature discussion about it and not dismiss these issues as my own personal problems that are in my head and I can just simply mod them away.

 

[skullmuffins]

I dunno. I do think diversity is important, but some places are pretty damn homogeneous, small farming communities probably being way up there. I grew up in a small town and my school was overwhelmingly white. I only remember a handful of black kids in the entire school, and other races were basically non-existent. Then, when I was 11, my family moved across the country. Our new area was waaaaaay more diverse, and school was probably only 50% or less non-hispanic white kids. They're both real situations, but it sometimes feels as if people think the first one can't or shouldn't be represented in media anymore.

 

[CryptiK]

But the outrage is fabricated. OP wanted to create a discussion on diversity in indie games, and people are being strangely dismissive.

Then make the title about diversity. Instead of a title about token characters that don't exist in this game. He literally says that in his mind there is only 1 black character in his mind and doesnt count the half black daughter or your children with the half black daughter. Not only that but there are other characters in the game that don't look white either.

 

[spineduke]

That's totally ignoring the purpose of this discussion on the lack of diversity in gaming. Should we have to build our own water fountains, too?

The very nature of game development has become less rigid as it allows for custom content, produced in official or unofficial terms. To say that one is not catered even though a wealth of modding options are available is surprising. There will always be under representation for at least one minority group or other in any game or story, and the fact that modding exists is a blessing in itself. It can raise awareness for the demand for such characters and show how such options can co-exist without necessarily disrupting development in a negative way. And in some cases, mods are adopted and integrated into the games functionality itself.

 

[Claude Augario]

To be painfully frank, it is kinda accurate to country life.

To be painfully frank, this is complete bullshit.

People (rightfully) call out Hollywood and its White Egypt fetish but I rarely see the notion that black people just materialized in American cities challenged. When the Great Migration happened, where do they think they migrated from? The phantom zone?

 

[besada]

Two notes:

1) As always, if this topic doesn't interest you, feel free to not post in it. But don't feel free to shit it up by complaining about the title. If you have a problem with another user's behavior, contact a moderator.

2) Quit telling people to tweet someone instead of posting a thread. While they are welcome to tweet someone if they want to, they are not obligated to do so, and we don't need folks derailing threads with a set of hurdles they've invented before a discussion can be had.

 

[Brakke]

Then make the title about diversity. Instead of a title about token characters that don't exist in this game. He literally says that in his mind there is only 1 black character in his mind and doesnt count the half black daughter or your children with the half black daughter. Not only that but there are other characters in the game that don't look white either.

Your unwillingness to round 1.5 to 1 is bizarrely pedantic.

 

[tskeeve]

I don't know. I'm Indian, and quite honestly, I feel like there's even LESS Indian representation in games than there is Black representation. I mean, what game has an Indian protagonist? There's also 1.2 billion of us...so, I'm not sure there's even the excuse of "well, you're a minority." Games only really involve India or Indian persons when Hindu mythology is involved, and that itself is a rarity. Quite frankly, it's getting tiring.

What I'm saying is, at least you get your token Black person. Indians don't even get a token yet.

 

[ZeroX03]

Why doesn't the half black character count as black? "Doesn't stick out" doesn't seem to be a good reason, especially looking at the character portraits.

 

[Bboy AJ]

I don't know. I'm Indian, and quite honestly, I feel like there's even LESS Indian representation in games than there is Black representation. I mean, what game has an Indian protagonist? There's also 1.2 billion of us...so, I'm not sure there's even the excuse of "well, you're a minority." Games only really involve India or Indian persons when Hindu mythology is involved, and that itself is a rarity. Quite frankly, it's getting tiring.

What I'm saying is, at least you get your token Black person. Indians don't even get a token yet.

I agree. And it's super annoying. Or how the Asian protagonist has to be a kung fu master only, or whatever. It's not cool when white is the default or, often, only.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I mean it really depends, there's probably 95 white people to 1 black person where I live, it's not like it's racist by only having a few around, maybe that's just the demographics of where the developer lives or that's the demographics of his world.

Or maybe he just wasn't thinking about that when he was designing the game.

EDIT: Sorry checked the demographics, it's 52 to 1 but the point still stands.

i haven't played the game yet but i'm sure it's digital and not real life

 

[spineduke]

Ah, I was unaware of this. Could you perhaps link some?

http://community.playstarbound.com/threads/diverse-stardewvalley-harvey.109748/

There's probably more out there but I haven't looked long enough.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

You realize there's a plethora of mods to tailoring the game to your liking? I often feel its not necessarily the dev's responsibility when there's an active modding community which can easily (and happily) address your needs.

ahh yes the Bethesda solution

 

[cw_sasuke]

How many black farmers do the Harvest Moon usually have?? Honest question it's been a while since I have played a HM game.

 

[spineduke]

ahh yes the Bethesda solution

Haha, aptly named. But in this case, it really is a one man show. Bethesda have the money and the resources, but none of the care to bother.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Your unwillingness to round 1.5 to 1 is bizarrely pedantic.

This conversation about whether someone who's mixed race gets to count as black or white reinforces some really bad things.

 

[Xbob42]

"There's too few black people, they feel like token minorities. There should be more black people."

...doesn't that just mean that those extra black people are also token minorities? Just because you add more doesn't make them not token, if they're added just to appease people like the OP.

There's not that many black people in America, and there's certainly not very many black people in small rural areas like the example of Pelican Town. You can certainly add more diversity, but if you're doing it just for diversity's sake that's the definition of token minorities. The interracial couple with a mixed race daughter and same-sex marriage wasn't quite enough, we need even more!

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but at the same time if we're just yelling at people to do it, that just creates awkward situations where you've got that Ghostbusters Extreme cartoon desperately trying to cater to everyone. I think it works much better when developers add these things naturally rather than trying to artificially shoehorn them in, and it has certainly gotten a hell of a lot more diverse in gaming over the past several years. Still not where it needs to be, but not so bad as to where I'd want to influence game development by shouting about it to get people injected unnaturally into games.

I imagine it's especially different if you're not of that minority. If, say, a white developer were to try to add a black character and didn't "handle" some element right, it'd come off as cheap and lazy. Too smart? Overcompensating. Too funny? "Black people aren't just entertainers." Too serious? "Boring." Too mysterious? "Morgan Freeman always plays god and is mysterious."

Again, not so much an excuse as it is probably something people don't want to get yelled at over because they don't want to offend. ESPECIALLY in the case of Stardew Valley. I've always thought the best solution is kind of the same solution as the female issue in gaming: Work on getting more females making games. Lots of female-made games (and recently, cartoons) have shown to have been completely awesome, and often have a very different take on tropes and concepts than male-led ones, which is way more interesting and exciting than just yelling at the dudes to give Lara Croft more modest sweaters.

 

[Joey Ravn]

I get where OP is coming from. I only wish "diversity" wasn't limited to "black characters", or "minority characters" at most. Stardew Valley has a wide range of kinda deep characters (for what the game is) from different walks of life, but it is being completely overlooked in this thread.

For example. We have characters of different body sizes and shapes (compare Maru or Marnie and Jodi or Haley) and ages (Evelyn, George, Lewis, Jas or Vincent). There is a character with PTSD (

Spoiler

Kent

), a character who is strongly suggested of suffering from depression (

Spoiler

Shane

), a poor man who experiences both cruelty and compassion from the people of Stardew Valley (

Spoiler

Linus

), a person who has yet to come to terms with an accident that changed his life 30 years before (

Spoiler

George

), a young woman interested in traditionally "male" professions (

Spoiler

Maru

), a woman battling with alcoholism after she lost her job (

Spoiler

Pam

), etc. Not to mention the fact that every bachelor and every bachelorette can be married by both male and female characters... remember that in the first Harvest Moon to feature a female player character, the game ended when you got married to one of the bachelors!

Again, I understand OP's point. I just wanted to mention that even if the game lacks certain aspects of diversity, it is nowhere near as one-dimensional as it may appear to be if we focus only on the existence of Demetrius.

 

[Bboy AJ]

That's my thing, though. Demetrius sticks out. He feels token. Like he's black just to check the box. Literally everyone else is white, except his daughter, which is obviously necessary. Why is there just one black character and why does it stick out so much to me? Would he have been such a sore thumb if there were other minorities in the game? Would more diversity have helped me feel like there's no token, checkbox thing going on?

Again, I don't think that's the dev's intent.

 

[Brakke]

How many black farmers do the Harvest Moon usually have?? Honest question it's been a while since I have played a HM game.

I guess we can pretend Kai is black?

His in-game sprite and portraits are usually way less dark than that. And he's usually a wine-maker guy so I always kind of figured he was supposed to be a tan Italian type.

This conversation about whether someone who's mixed race gets to count as black or white reinforces some really bad things.

Totally, I agree. My point is it doesn't really matter that much which way you go: one guy and his daughter is pretty much just as token as one guy. CryptiK's being pedantic about "token" being "exactly one" instead of the angle OP's taking where "token" is "pretty much one".

 

[TheTylerRob]

I guess we can pretend Kai is black?

His in-game sprite and portraits are usually way less dark than that. And he's usually a wine-maker guy so I always kind of figured he was supposed to be a tan Italian type.

That guy wasn't black? But he's black...

 

[Sakura]

How many black farmers do the Harvest Moon usually have?? Honest question it's been a while since I have played a HM game.

There are darker skinned characters some times, but it's impossible to know what ethnicity they are usually supposed to be.

 

[grandwizard]

I don't know. I'm Indian, and quite honestly, I feel like there's even LESS Indian representation in games than there is Black representation. I mean, what game has an Indian protagonist? There's also 1.2 billion of us...so, I'm not sure there's even the excuse of "well, you're a minority." Games only really involve India or Indian persons when Hindu mythology is involved, and that itself is a rarity. Quite frankly, it's getting tiring.

What I'm saying is, at least you get your token Black person. Indians don't even get a token yet.

Bringing up Indians is a good counter to the people who believe racial representation in games is just some factor devs don't actually think about and people upset about it just make trouble out of nothing. Somehow throughout decades of gaming there is less than a handful of Indian leads in gaming despite there being over 1 billion of them in reality, and people still want to argue it isn't a deliberate choice?

It is, and thus it can and should be criticized.

 

[dan2026]

So is the basic jist of this thread 'if you are only going to have one black person then it is better to have no black people'?

Because that makes no sense.

 

[Forkball]

I can understand the desire to see more characters of your race/ethnicity/creed/sexual orientation in the media you consume, but also understand that artists basically make what they know, or tackle subjects of personal interest to them. There could be really any number of reasons why there aren't that many black people in the game. Maybe he simply hasn't met many in his life, maybe the black character in the game was directly inspired by a person he knew, maybe he realized that everyone was white and tried to rectify it by changing the ethnicity of some characters etc. I just think you're looking too deeply into it. Not to mention there are countless of other minorities probably not represented in the game. Are there Asians? Native Americans? First-generation immigrants? The disabled, both physically and mentally? Non-Christians? Homosexuals? Transgendered people? It's really a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." You really can't please everyone, but we should at least be able to see from the POV of the game's creator and give him some inkling of praise for including minorities in positive roles in the game.

 

[CryptiK]

Your unwillingness to round 1.5 to 1 is bizarrely pedantic.

So you are saying a half black person can't be a black person? Why would you round down, the topic is about minorities, do you not count a half black person to be a minority either?

 

[LiK]

Any Asians?

 

[blankempathy]

The only thing that stuck out to me about Demetrius is that he clearly did not grow up in Pelican town and probably moved there after marrying Robin. Maybe thats why he doesn't feel as natural as the rest of the villagers to you op?

 

[ZeroX03]

Not to mention the fact that every bachelor and every bachelorette can be married by both male and female characters... remember that in the first Harvest Moon to feature a female player character, the game ended when you got married to one of the bachelors!

Every romantic option in the game is bisexual?

That's my thing, though. Demetrius sticks out. He feels token. Like he's black just to check the box. Literally everyone else is white, except his daughter, which is obviously necessary. Why is there just one black character and why does it stick out so much to me? Would he have been such a sore thumb if there were other minorities in the game? Would more diversity have helped me feel like there's no token, checkbox thing going on?

What you're describing is two black characters. I know it's a minor thing in regards to tokenism, but a pretty big affront to biracial people.

 

[Sushi Nao]

So I am always suprised by threads like this. If there is a game with lots of black people in it, I don't complain about. (But yes I can agree there are too few of those) Usually I'm on the side of, if it fits the setting don't force something else on the game. This game takes place in a small farmers town. It seems to be in the western (northern) world. I don't know what country you live in, but in most, there would be 90% white people. So I have no problems with it.

The game is not representative of the diversity of its player demographic. Non-white players deserve to have representation. This supercedes narrative "concerns" - this game is not a historical documentary.

 

[SuperBanana]

I didn't feel like he stuck out at all. Honestly, I think it would be kinda forced and silly having a tiny farming village be composed of a ridiculously diverse cast of characters. That's not adding in characters naturally but just checking off a box at that point. Pretty much all farming areas are a majority one race since they're further outside of main cities.

 

[blankempathy]

The game is not representative of the diversity of its player demographic. Non-white players deserve to have representation. This supercedes narrative "concerns" - this game is not a historical documentary.

But I feel like I was represented. Not as a minority but as an outsider coming into a community and type of living I'm unfamiliar with. Why would I expect there to be a bunch of culturally device group of people in a place like Pelican town? Sure its just a video game but clearly its inspired by real world places.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm working on a one-man indie game right now (let's see if it ever releases, lol) and I will say that these kinds of discussions do raise my consciousness and affect my work.

I do think it's impossible to please everyone.... but I think it's great to respond to the challenge.

I don't know. I'm Indian, and quite honestly, I feel like there's even LESS Indian representation in games than there is Black representation. I mean, what game has an Indian protagonist? There's also 1.2 billion of us...so, I'm not sure there's even the excuse of "well, you're a minority." Games only really involve India or Indian persons when Hindu mythology is involved, and that itself is a rarity. Quite frankly, it's getting tiring.

What I'm saying is, at least you get your token Black person. Indians don't even get a token yet.

In a way there's kind of a "Black privilege" (wait.. read...) because the struggles of American society and its internationally exported mass media have created an expectation that works of art should include at least some Black representation, even though they often don't. American blacks are at least on the list, by virtue of being a significant part of exported American culture.

And yet there are thousands of ethnicities on this planet that don't have one second in most popular works. Where's the Hmong character in Star Wars? Where's the Uyghur soldier in Halo 5? No one ever noticed their absence at all. So much more to diversity than just "there should be a black, brown, asian dude".

 

[Bboy AJ]

How awesome would it be if the hero of Star Wars was a brown Muslim? That would have changed lots of anti Muslim feelings in the world.

Every romantic option in the game is bisexual?



What you're describing is two black characters. I know it's a minor thing in regards to tokenism, but a pretty big affront to biracial people.

I think it's more me feeling that, yeah, of course she's black. She's the one black dude's daughter, what else would she be?

The interracial couple is the most courageous thing the dev did. It would have been easier to make it a black couple instead of interracial and I applaud that.

 

[Brakke]

That guy wasn't black? But he's black...

His portrait from Friends of Mineral Town, for example, is this:

Lots of Harvest Moon character designs get repurposed and modified and juggled around from game to game, so there's lots of inconsistencies. There are some games (and art) where Kai might be black, but plenty where he isn't. He's the closest example I can think of right now.

So you are saying a half black person can't be a black person? Why would you round down, the topic is about minorities, do you not count a half black person to be a minority either?

No, I didn't say that. Why aren't you willing to round two black characters down to one, recognize the spirit of OP's dissatisfaction, rather than focusing on the pedantry? Like... clearly the ratio of black to white characters in this game is close to zero. Tokenism is a fine label to use here if we take the family as the unit instead of the individual.

 

[Lime]

I wish there were more black people in game development... Especially in the indie scene, that would help get more diversity in gaming.

http://www.blackgamedevs.com/

 

[spineduke]

So is the basic jist of this thread 'if you are only going to have one black person then it is better to have no black people'?

Because that makes no sense.

Actually, a good question is, when do people feel satisfied with representation? Is it a finite number of characters, a percentage or maybe a significant role in the narrative? Would one character be fine if other major races were similarly represented in terms of numbers?

 

[CryptiK]

His portrait from Friends of Mineral Town, for example, is this:

No, I didn't say that. Why aren't you willing to round two black characters down to one, recognize the spirit of OP's dissatisfaction, rather than focusing on the pedantry? Like... clearly the ratio of black to white characters in this game is close to zero. Tokenism is a fine label to use here if we take the family as the unit instead of the individual.

Because changing factual evidence to suit an argument seriously wrong.

 

[Kosma]

Did you make a thread already about the lack of white rappers in the Wu Tang clan?

I mean they can pretty much do what they want but they ignore a large demographic that buys there product. In 2016 there is no excuse for not having some suburban rappers join the WU and rap about issues that matter to me as a whitey.

I'd also like a female rapper to join them, so my daughter will have some connection to the Killer Beez. Obviosly they have to stop using the words bitches and ho's and LEAN IN a bit.

Also tone down profanity cause she is only 1 so I don't want her to learn bad words.

Maybe change their name from clan to club, cause clans cause wars and are non-inclusive and that's just not cool.