Stardew Valley: Token minority character

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Caronte

Member
Just to be clear, are you complaining about a lack of black characters or minorities in general? Because everytime there's a discussion about this it seems like the only minority that needs representation are black people.

If every race had a decent amount of representation (3+) the town would feel very different from what the developer was aiming for.
 

Sushi Nao

Member
Did you make a thread already about the lack of white rappers in the Wu Tang clan?

I mean they can pretty much do what they want but they ignore a large demographic that buys there product. In 2016 there is no excuse for not having some suburban rappers join the WU and rap about issues that matter to me as a whitey.

I'd also like a female rapper to join them, so my daughter will have some connection to the Killer Beez.

Also tone down profanity cause she is only 1 so I don't want her to learn bad words.

This seems needlessly adversarial, to put it charitably.
 

dity

Member
Given all the representation issues the game is facing with people wanting the town to be more homely from their own POV, I reckon the dev should have just made everyone Thundercats and called it Thunder Valley.
 

Brakke

Banned
Because changing factual evidence to suit an argument seriously wrong.

Whatever, dude. "Token" isn't some well-defined legal term. "Token" as absolutely meaning "no more than one" is a game you're trying to play, but it just isn't interesting. Tokenism is about a weak effort with regard to inclusion: a single black character *plus his own kid* reasonably constitutes a weak effort.

And, in any case, "tokenism" isn't even an inflammatory term. It's not like we're poisoning the well by invoking it.
 

CryptiK

Member
Whatever, dude. "Token" isn't some well-defined legal term. "Token" as absolutely meaning "no more than one" is a game you're trying to play, but it just isn't interesting. Tokenism is about a weak effort with regard to inclusion: a single black character *plus his own kid* reasonably constitutes a weak effort.

And, in any case, "tokenism" isn't even an inflammatory term. It's not like we're poisoning the well by invoking it.
But how exactly is it a weak effort? The OP says it is but never explains why other than that he is the only Black character. This is the problem. How exactly can the dev add two black characters to the game plus the character you can create and avoid it being tokenism? What does he have to do besides add more.
 
How many black farmers do the Harvest Moon usually have?? Honest question it's been a while since I have played a HM game.

The last few Story of Seasons games have featured several skin tones for your (very, but not totally) customizable character, and you can make your character look believably darker. Tale of Two Towns featured both a Japanese-inspired town and a Western (American) Town, A New Beginning and Story of Seasons have several characters (both portraited Villagers as well as more generic NPCs) with a pseudo-Indian background (this is a recurring "far away country" in the series), and Story of Seasons' main plotline revolves around the idea of getting merchants from many diverse countries to visit your little Western-ish town.

The next Story of Seasons game currently in development (3つの里の大切な友だち) continues to have even more diversity, as there are three villages, each with a "theme"; Western, Japanese, and a darker set of Pacific Islanders/Indian (although I wish the portrait art matched the sprite skintones better, way too much "light-washing" there), as well as the customizable MC. In addition, it finally looks like we're going to be getting unique children based on the parents again, a feature that hasn't been seen since Animal Parade. (This will hopefully destroy the "mixed race kids are white" thing from the last few games.)

While the Story of Seasons games don't feature black characters often, if at all that I can think of (outside of some very offensive and few and far between characters, like the edited-lighter-for-NA Zann in Hero of Leaf Valley) I think they do a decent job incorporating different bits and pieces of various Asian cultures right alongside the idealized Western Cowboy themes, and hopefully the upcoming games after Precious Friends of Three Towns will continue in this direction. Their attempts at non-Asian diversity so far have been awful for the most part.
 

Dreadr

Banned
The person who programmed the game is white and probably lives in an area with mostly white people. I bet if Africans would go into game development, there would be more black people in their games.

Japanese, Chinese and Korean games also often represent their own ethnicities (or Anime).

The question is not why there's so few games with South American and African ethnicities, the question is why they don't do game development themselves instead of whinning.

Why on earth would a sole indie dev care about diversity? He creates the game from his live experiences and surely doesn't think about racial stuff.
 

Kosma

Banned
Dreadr is trolling no doubt, but the fact is you have to take ownership of this.

We aren't talking civil rights here, if you think your voice isn't being represented in media you have to create it yourself.

Don't pass the responsibility to someone else. That's not how diversity works.
 

Brakke

Banned
But how exactly is it a weak effort? The OP says it is but never explains why other than that he is the only Black character. This is the problem. How exactly can the dev add two black characters to the game plus the character you can create and avoid it being tokenism? What does he have to do besides add more.

Alight I'm bored with you, sorry. We don't need to have threads be ironclad prescriptions for solving problems in generality. Sometimes, we're uncomfortable with a thing and want to explore it with other people. OP has literally asked the same question you are. You'd be more interesting if you'd engage it instead of trying to litigate some rejection of it.

That's my thing, though. Demetrius sticks out. He feels token. Like he's black just to check the box. Literally everyone else is white, except his daughter, which is obviously necessary. Why is there just one black character and why does it stick out so much to me? Would he have been such a sore thumb if there were other minorities in the game? Would more diversity have helped me feel like there's no token, checkbox thing going on?

Again, I don't think that's the dev's intent.
 
We need more people making games is the bottom line, different races, different sexes.

The amount of white developers is staggering, many of them grew up in really white places especially if they are not American. Their frame of reference for the world at large is often just what they have known so it's not surprising that we get so many white people games.

If I made a game it would probably be too white as well, but we need discussions like this to make people aware that the world at large isn't as white as they may have experienced in their life.

America also needs to realise that it is not the world, their are billions of non whites and non blacks that are under represented as well and there are lots of other countries that have majority white populations that have nowhere near the ethnic diversity that the US has, not all white people are white americans.
 

Menchi

Member
I'm a little disappointed that you claim to be concerned about a lack of minorities, and then proceed to talk about the only minority that is actually represented as not being represented enough, whilst neglecting to mention any other minority.

I don't really think in a game that has a relatively small cast of characters, albeit, developed ones, that arguing for minorities to be represented "fairly" would really be feasible.

I'd venture a guess that had the developer been a Black person from Africa, that there'd be very few White or other minority characters, based solely on the design of the game as a small rural town with a close knit community. Just doesn't make sense having a melting pot of ethnicities in that environment. It's certainly be feasible, but are we asking devs to be "inclusive" for the sake of it, rather than respecting the design for what it is.

I'd argue that wouldn't be real inclusiveness anyway, as that just reeks of doing stuff against your original intentions to meet a "quota"

Instead, I think we need to encourage more inclusiveness on a more mainstream level, with big devs and publishers utilising an array of ethnicities, genders, & sexual/gender minorities to create games that allow everyone to feel represented, as opposed to expecting independent devs to represent things they have no knowledge of.
 
"Token" doesn't mean racist or stereotypical . It simply means single or only, so , that is what the character is.

No.

A Token minority character is in a work because they are a minority character.

To count as a token black guy, Demetrius would have to basically be there specifically to talk about issues with being a black guy with a mulatto Daughter.

As far as I can tell, the worst thing that happens in this game is that he has a fight with his wife about Tomatoes being a fruit.

He's not a Token minority character. He's a Character.
 

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
I'm a little disappointed that you claim to be concerned about a lack of minorities, and then proceed to talk about the only minority that is actually represented as not being represented enough, whilst neglecting to mention any other minority.
Where in the OP do you get the idea that I'm upset only one black character is in the game, instead of lack of diversity? I used the black character as a platform for the bigger issue. OP literally says "If there were more minority characters in the game, Demetrius would not be the sore thumb he is. But as is, he completely comes off as a, "Welp, better put a token black dude in the game," even if the developer totally did not intend that. And I'm sure he didn't."

Just doesn't make sense having a melting pot of ethnicities in that environment
You mean like a wizard in a farming game
 
Wow.
Maybe it's the stardew valley fandom but some you guys are being extra shitty when a guy is just asking for a little more diversity in his games.

For real. This thread has not been at all like most of those I've seen of its nature on GAF.

Sorry, OP. I don't really have much to contribute except that that does really seem like quite the afterthought for the game.
 

Catvoca

Banned
Videogames totally have a diversity problem, but using a small indie game made by one person with a positive representation of 2 black characters is, I think, the wrong way to show how undiverse Videogames are. I'd be more inclined to look at larger industry trends then pointing to this one small game.

Saying that, Stardew valley could totally be more diverse. I think it tries to be inclusive in many ways, through the ability to have homosexual relationships and through it's whole environmentalist message that it spreads, and having a more diverse cast would only strengthen this part of the game. I don't think it's a huge problem, as the cast are plenty diverse in other ways and deal with a variety of ordinary problems people can relate to, but as always it would be good thing.
 

Menchi

Member
Where in the OP do you get the idea that I'm upset only one black character is in the game, instead of lack of diversity? I used the black character as a platform for the bigger issue. OP literally says "If there were more minority characters in the game, Demetrius would not be the sore thumb he is. But as is, he completely comes off as a, "Welp, better put a token black dude in the game," even if the developer totally did not intend that. And I'm sure he didn't."

You implicitly talk about him being the only black character, ignoring his daughter who is mixed. You don't implicity mention any other minority. That's where the inference comes from. The use of token to me implies you believe he has merely been inserted to meet a "diversity quota" which strikes me as being ridiculous given he is a fully developed character just as every other character is. That does not imply token at all to me. I'm also bemused as to why you discount presence of his daughter, I'm not sure why she doesn't count? The dev could have just as easily not created that character and there would be even less representation.


You mean like a wizard in a farming game

Your point is? That the game isn't based in reality? Well obviously not. You're using reality to support the idea there needs to be more representation for minorities so I'm not exactly sure how this reinforces your point at all?

The only thing this game is based on, is the devs interpretation of the game world he has created which is most likely fuelled by his own personal experiences, which may or may not have had limited interactions with minorities in general. So why expect a single dev who may have no real knowledge of different minorities to include them for the sake of it?

Again, I'd press that pushing for representation in these small independent games is the wrong way about it, you're pushing for it from devs who may have very little knowledge of that minority, whether ethnic, sexual or gender based. Bigger, more mainstream devs have a much larger opportunity to pull from a varied range of experiences to make games which fairly portray various minorities.
 
I don't get why people are piling on the OP. Who cares if a 'sleepy farming town' would be mostly white? It's a freaking video game, who cares about being accurate, it'd be nicer to have a diverse community that more people can identify with.

It's less complaining about this game specifically and more pointing out this is still a trend we see in a lot of games. Why not use more colours in your characters skin tones? There's no downside.
 
Wow.
Maybe it's the stardew valley fandom but some you guys are being extra shitty when a guy is just asking for a little more diversity in his games.

It's the exact same bullshit arguments and posturing that come about when we talk about representation of women in gaming.

I'm baffled that people can't wrap their heads around the idea that diversity just for diversity's sake is a good thing, especially when there's nothing particularly racially-motivated in the game, so there is no need for any of the characters to be of a specific race.

They could be 100% white, black, or anything else, and it wouldn't make one iota of difference outside the question of representation. I don't blame the developer for this, because it's often a matter of simply not taking the time to think about specifically making representation beyond the "norm" of your personal environment.

I think bringing up this kind of stuff and discussing it is always a worthwhile venture, and the more we do it, the more likely it is that future developers stop and think "Did I just make most people white because that's 'normal' to me?"
 
I mean it really depends, there's probably 95 white people to 1 black person where I live, it's not like it's racist by only having a few around, maybe that's just the demographics of where the developer lives or that's the demographics of his world.

Or maybe he just wasn't thinking about that when he was designing the game.

EDIT: Sorry checked the demographics, it's 52 to 1 but the point still stands.

If you live in a place where your own demographic overwhelms others, it is all the more important that you consume media that represents many different kinds of people and POVs.

That's almost the entire point. To represent and give screen time to people who don't get their fair share.
 

spineduke

Unconfirmed Member
Wow.
Maybe it's the stardew valley fandom but some you guys are being extra shitty when a guy is just asking for a little more diversity in his games.

Pulling out the diversity card on a one man indie dev studio that built a game around the idea of a farming village based on some pseudo geographical locale isn't really that constructive. And then again, pulling it out despite the efforts of installing two minority characters just makes it seem less appreciative. Thirdly, mods have already addressed his needs, but he feels like the need to contest this on a larger scale. Sure, go for it, but how about turning your sights on a game/story/movie that doesn't even try at all?
 

Famassu

Member
There's not a single black person where my parents live, the only diversity we got is a small asian familly that owns the asian restaurant in our small town. So honestly, I don't care.

Diversity is great, but sometimes it feels like they force-feed it to you (By the way, Johnny Storm is now black ! The Ghostbusters are now all female !) just to be "politically correct", and that's a load of BS. At least the Ghostbusters movie seems awesome.
But "force-feeding" white men for decades is A-OK! Being more inclusive has nothing to do with being more "politically correct", learn your damn terms before making pointless complaints.

And again, this is a game. Real-world examples don't apply. It harms no one to be more inclusive in games like this.
 
I listened, and don't agree.
And what possible reason could you that be?

Pulling out the diversity card on a one man indie dev studio that built a game around the idea of a farming village based on some pseudo geographical locale isn't really that constructive. And then again, pulling it out despite the efforts of installing two minority characters just makes it seem less appreciative. Thirdly, mods have already addressed his needs, but he feels like the need to contest this on a larger scale. Sure, go for it, but how about turning your sights on a game/story/movie that doesn't even try at all?
Most games have this problem, no one is picking on this game.
It just the one the op noticed or cared enough to bring up. Its valid, constructive criticism.
 
The problem is that almost anything can stick out like a sore thumb, if you are searching for it.

1. Game is comprised of only one race.
Lack of diversity!
2. Game is comprised of mostly one race, with a one or two of a another race.
bah, token minority!
3. Game is comprised of 20% white caucasians, 20% africans, 20% asians, 20% south americans, 20% middle eastern.
Totally artificial, fake "perfect" racial diversity!
 
Would be fine with adding more characters to this game ; Really they are plenty of areas in the game that could use more characters to fill it out the desert region for one which is especially barren the Spa could also use some people running it.
 
I wonder if the developer is simply not confident writing black people, afraid that something about their portrayal would be considered racist or unrepresentative. One of those "you can't win" scenarios.

"The character speaks with some ebonics, that's racist!" vs. "the character talks like any other white person, black people don't act like this, they obviously just painted him black to add more token minorities!"
 

mclem

Member
It doesn't matter what he thinks about it because I'm sure he had no ill intent. It's a discussion on lack of diversity in gaming and how in Stardew, the one black character feels so token.

I tend to fall into a bit of a cyclical argument, and I'm not really sure where the solution lies:

We really, really should have more diversity in games, and that's a major issue that needs to be addressed...

...but I have problems with the idea of saying that a specific game ought to be more diverse; the designer really ought to have the freedom to tell the story they want in the setting they wish to use...

...but then, if I extrapolate that out to all games, with all designers telling the story they want in the setting they wish to use, on average we'll default to a lack of diversity, so we're not solving anything.


I said something similar a while back when the subject was Dishonored 2 (and, IIRC, there was commentary from Feminist Frequency suggested it'd be better if Emily was exclusively the MC, rather than having a choice between her or Corvo):

I think the catch-22, for me, is the point where the question shifts from the general case to a specific case. I completely agree that we need more female perspectives in gaming, and more games with exclusively female lead characters; those lead to storylines that are somewhat underrepresented.

But when it switches to a specific example, I disagree; It'll ultimately depend on the story they're looking to tell, so it's hard to make too many assumptions right now, but in principle I don't have a problem with Bethesda making this choice in the best interests of the game they wish to develop.

That's the problem, and I'm struggling to reconcile it satisfactorily. There are more stories out there that should be told that are being neglected, and that's bad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you should force a story into that mould. In Bethesda's case, it's rather dependent on how well they make Emily a plausible and individual character, rather than Corvo-sans-Blink.

The solution I'd like to say is that companies should continue to make the stories they wish to make, and new developers should spring up to fill those gaps. But that's its own problem when money comes into the fray; can such titles get the funding they need to be viable projects when commercialism becomes a necessary consideration?

It's a tough one. I agree with FF in the general sense, disagree in the specific sense, but in doing so also have to concede that unless there are some specific pushes in that direction, the general sense won't change.

I suppose the ideal solution is to get more artists into the industry who want to make interestingly diverse games - but we have to be welcoming when they do... and we don't look welcoming from the outside. Another problem.

And so, well, I keep going around in circles, trying to reconcile artistic freedom for the individual against the lack of diversity of the industry as a whole. I don't have answers; I wish I did.
 

spineduke

Unconfirmed Member
Most games have this problem, no one is picking on this game.
It just the one the op noticed or cared enough to bring up. Its valid, constructive criticism.

That's not what I'm really picking up on here. It's true most media suffers from white-washing, but it's been said time and time again, the core issue is that the content makers themselves are white. If you want to address this in full, ask why there aren't enough women/black/asian/other minorities in major videogame development? Especially in time where everyone can selfpublish and the barriers to entry are smaller than ever before?

I said something similar a while back when the subject was Dishonored 2 (and, IIRC, there was commentary from Feminist Frequency suggested it'd be better if Emily was exclusively the MC, rather than having a choice between her or Corvo):
Well said.
 

Dreadr

Banned
Wow.
Maybe it's the stardew valley fandom but some you guys are being extra shitty when a guy is just asking for a little more diversity in his games.

It hasn't much to do with the game. The circumstances how the game was made is the point.

I fail to see the moral obligation of this dude to develop a game with an equal amount of all ethnicities.

If we talk bigger studios, then it's another story imo. It's a problem and it needs to be adressed, I don't want to deny that.

Teach programming, build teams, give funding, educate and make aware of issues, just do it. I'm all for more diverse games and less CoD!

But I am very against the idea of dictating what one person does with his indie project.

If that makes my stance clearer, I hope.

Maybe he reads such a thread and decides to update the game or take the idea to his next game, I wouldn't have anything against it.

But it's the artist's choice how to make art, not the viewer's.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Japanese, Chinese and Korean games also often represent their own ethnicities (or Anime).

I dunno man, a lot of anime have characters with very rounded bodies, big eyes, and non-black hair.

I get what you mean

On topic: I agree indies definitely have a lot less of a 'shackle' when it comes to pioneering certain things. But I'm not convinced if equally representing ethnicity in what's a farming town somewhere in a remote location of North America is the right place without seeming forced. Good topic, could have picked a better game choice. And yes, I'm fully aware that it's a slice-of-life game where you can decide exactly who your character is.
 

bomblord1

Banned
The game doesn't have a very large cast in the first place having 2 characters seems like its a bit larger of a percentage than most other games considering the small cast size.

Then of course the dev shouldn't feel forced to include more in the first place. If that's what it comes down to then we've failed.
 

pastrami

Member
It hasn't much to do with the game. The circumstances how the game was made is the point.

I fail to see the moral obligation of this dude to develop a game with an equal amount of all ethnicities.

If we talk bigger studios, then it's another story imo. It's a problem and it needs to be adressed, I don't want to deny that.

Teach programming, build teams, give funding, educate and make aware of issues, just do it. I'm all for more diverse games and less CoD!

But I am very against the idea of dictating what one person does with his indie project.

If that makes my stance clearer, I hope.

Maybe he reads such a thread and decides to update the game or take the idea to his next game, I wouldn't have anything against it.

But it's the artist's choice how to make art, not the viewer's.

We are allowed to criticize art. We are allowed to criticize a single person. Whether you think it's valid criticism is another story, but I don't get the point of saying it's the artist's intent, as if that means they are untouchable.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
How awesome would it be if the hero of Star Wars was a brown Muslim? That would have changed lots of anti Muslim feelings in the world.

So now videogames need to cater to religion as well? Ease down Ripley, you're just grinding the transaxle.

With respect to Stardew valley the game already has more minority representation than the mostly farming community where I grew up which had exactly one person who was American Indian in an otherwise Caucasian community. On top of that we're talking a game produced by a single person. It is his/her vision, his/her work. People complaining that he didn't spend a larger portion of the what, 4 years he worked on this game creating a rainbow cast of characters might want to pick a better target.

Note: I haven't played the game, I don't like/dislike it, have no firsthand opinions of it whatsoever so I'm definitely not on the Stardew Defense Team. I am however on the "get a grip ffs" team.
 
Threads like this are rather disheartening to read through. I guess us black folks don't belong in gaming.
Quite the wakeup call.
That's not what I'm really picking up on here. It's true most media suffers from white-washing, but it's been said time and time again, the core issue is that the content makers themselves are white. If you want to address this in full, ask why there aren't enough women/black/asian/other minorities in major videogame development? Especially in time where everyone can selfpublish and the barriers to entry are smaller than ever before?
We can do both.

It hasn't much to do with the game. The circumstances how the game was made is the point.

I fail to see the moral obligation of this dude to develop a game with an equal amount of all ethnicities.

If we talk bigger studios, then it's another story imo. It's a problem and it needs to be adressed, I don't want to deny that.

Teach programming, build teams, give funding, educate and make aware of issues, just do it. I'm all for more diverse games and less CoD!

But I am very against the idea of dictating what one person does with his indie project.

If that makes my stance clearer, I hope.

Maybe he reads such a thread and decides to update the game or take the idea to his next game, I wouldn't have anything against it.

But it's the artist's choice how to make art, not the viewer's.

Yep, and its the consumer right to criticism them for those choices. There's no moral obligation to do anything, he can these criticisms to heart or ignore them. His choice.

I have a feeling you will tell me
Nah, you hopefully have a brain full of opinions. I would like to hear them.
 
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