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[RodriGames40]

The corporate shills better give up already. We are playing our games forever.

 

[simpatico]

I edited my post to include the answer, so you probably missed it, and I'll repeat:

All of this would be known before development even starts (the initiative is not retroactive, laws generally cannot be), it wouldn't be some "sudden" cost factor, but an abysmally small amount of work to be happening at the end of life.
This has nothing to do with costs, it's simply to get suits to do the right thing, even if it would cost them 0.000001% of profit.

If a new WoW was to be developed AFTER the initiative has lead to a law, THEN it would have to oblige.

Lets pretend this law was in place before WoW released. What degree of functionality would it have to retain to be compliant with this?

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Lets pretend this law was in place before WoW released. What degree of functionality would it have to retain to be compliant with this?

Not totally clear at this point.
The initiative asks for nothing more than an end-of-life plan for a game for AFTER the dev/publisher has taken it offline.

In what form exactly is then up for the EU Commission to determine.
The initiative itself is vague on purpose here:

The initiative does not seek to acquire ownership of said videogames, associated intellectual rights or monetization rights, neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state.

"Reasonably functional"
Now, that sounds vague, but it answers a lot, actually.
Is it reasonable to expect publishers to keep hosting all online functionality on their servers AFTER they take a game offline? No.
Is it reasonable to expect players' data to still be available after the servers by the publisher are gone? No.

So, in the end, the most likely scenarios will be providing players with means to host themselves (even if that means local only) or to make the game playable offline and merely mock server functionality.
At least that's how I see it and how Ross himself explained in some videos, too.

That's not optimal, but in the case of an "officially" dead game, it is reasonable - and obviously much better than the current "nothing at all, ever again".

In the case of WoW, my personal minimal expectation here would be a kind of single player mode without any of the multiplayer features.
Hopeful expectation would be a means to host actual servers myself. Database schemas, API documentation, etc, optimally server executables themselves (though that might not be feasable in all cases).

 

[simpatico]

(though that might not be feasable in all cases).

Therein lies the problem. If these things aren't crystal clear it's going to end up causing confusion and hurting more than it helps. I have yet to see anyone strongly in favor of this give an explanation of what it would look it in a GaaS. They all just defer to the EU Commission, like they're capable of understanding it and providing a nuanced solution that doesn't end up hurting more than it helps.

I think we've got early 00s PC FPS games covered. Just release the server code and hope that some fan pays out of pocket to host a server forever. (For offline play, IDK if there will be some way to measure if AI bots are "good enough" to be complaint or if pubs can totally just half ass AI bots to be complaint. That's a whole thread of its own). Where do consoles fit in? If this was in place during the PS3 era, would Sony be compelled to keep PS3 PSN active for a game like MAG or Unreal Tournament 3? Or would they be forced to give access to their back-end server code for someone else to host?

I agree with the sentiment, obviously, but it's too messy and governments are too stupid to make any kind of legislation help more than hurt. Can't stress how bad of an idea it is to invite government regulation into your hobby.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Therein lies the problem. If these things aren't crystal clear it's going to end up causing confusion and hurting more than it helps. I have yet to see anyone strongly in favor of this give an explanation of what it would look it in a GaaS.

I just did. In multiple paragraphs.
You apparently chose to ignore it. Or you do not understand what an offline mode is, or what local servers are, or what call mocking is (that last one is excusable, it is rather techy, but you could still google, you know).
If you want me to draw you a 50 page waterproof law text, I'll have to disappoint you, I don't got that much time.
And quite honestly, I have a feeling that even if I did, you'd just hand-wave it away without reading because you are set in your anti-consumer and/or "government bad" stance.

And laws generally end up being crystal clear in most cases (at least here in the EU...), because they have to in order to be applicable. So that's a non-issue.

hey all just defer to the EU Commission, like they're capable of understanding it and providing a nuanced solution that doesn't end up hurting more than it helps.

Yeah, they are. That's literally their job.
Especially of the people leading the initiative within the EU parliament themselves. Even more so for those whose job it will be to actually formulate laws around this.

The process will include them, people lobbying for the initiative and, unfortunately, lobbyists from the industry.
Hard to see them bungle that entirely, to be honest.

I agree with the sentiment, obviously, but it's too messy and governments are too stupid to make any kind of legislation help more than hurt. Can't stress how bad of an idea it is to invite government regulation into your hobby.

You should stop huffing the "government bad, mhkay" glue. No, government is not bad - it just needs help sometimes to take action, hence the initiative.
I'm quite happy to get the government involved in this - because the alternative is losing what people purchased, as well as game history forever.

How exactly that is going to hurt anyone is a wild idea existing only in your head.
Not even developers believe the lies spread by publishers about how this would hurt profits or be technically impossible - it's just bullshit brought up by suits, because corpo hates doing things that do not earn them money, no matter how cheap it would be. Just think back on how the industry bosses were against putting seat belts in cars in the 60s - same shit again, only this time in video games.
Devs themselves are largely in favor - makes sense, nobody wants to see their work destroyed, especially not if that work is in perfect working order.

There is no alternative here without governments enforcing it.

 

[simpatico]

Yeah, they are. That's literally their job.

You should stop huffing the "government bad, mhkay" glue. No, government is not bad - it just needs help sometimes to take action, hence the initiative.

EU gov good? Not often you get someone to admit to that in public, but here we are. Saw some crazy stuff in Berlin 3 years ago. Far cry from what it looked like in 08 when I spent a couple months there for work. Personally, I wouldn't invite the gov who made those decisions to decide anything about a hobby of mine. But hey maybe it's cultural? Some people just can't get by without being told what to do.

Still doesn't explain how Helldivers 2 or Destiny would play offline. I'd certainly argue they're non-compliant if the majority of content isn't playable. Which without heroic amounts of AI updates, it would be.

 

[Hashassin]

Does this matter even in the slightest, if everyone and their mother here continues to buy games from companies that actively lobby against this?

which is nearly every company.

 

[Sintoid]

Ok we stop killing them
Will YOU keep paying for keeping them alive?

 

[mèx]

EU gov good? Not often you get someone to admit to that in public, but here we are. Saw some crazy stuff in Berlin 3 years ago. Far cry from what it looked like in 08 when I spent a couple months there for work.

Just to clarify:
1. The EU is not a government, but a political and economic union.
2. The EU does not govern over specific countries or cities... How that's done depends on each state constitution and governance structure.

So no, the "city X has problem Y, the EU is bad" makes no sense.

 

[Bojji]

EU gov good? Not often you get someone to admit to that in public, but here we are. Saw some crazy stuff in Berlin 3 years ago. Far cry from what it looked like in 08 when I spent a couple months there for work. Personally, I wouldn't invite the gov who made those decisions to decide anything about a hobby of mine. But hey maybe it's cultural? Some people just can't get by without being told what to do.

Still doesn't explain how Helldivers 2 or Destiny would play offline. I'd certainly argue they're non-compliant if the majority of content isn't playable. Which without heroic amounts of AI updates, it would be.

Without government rules and interventions you have monopolies, duopolies and cartels. Consumers are screwed and left with no choice. Completely free market only looks good on paper.

Americans are being scared by "communism" on every corner while living in corporate dystopian world. Some form of government regulations is needed to keep greedy corporations in check.

Does this matter even in the slightest, if everyone and their mother here continues to buy games from companies that actively lobby against this?

which is nearly every company.

If this changes into some new law or correction to the current legislation it won't matter, companies will have to comply. Maybe only in the EU market (like with third party stores in IOS) or world wide (like USB C in Iphones) depending on what is cheaper to them.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

EU gov good? Not often you get someone to admit to that in public, but here we are. Saw some crazy stuff in Berlin 3 years ago. Far cry from what it looked like in 08 when I spent a couple months there for work. Personally, I wouldn't invite the gov who made those decisions to decide anything about a hobby of mine. But hey maybe it's cultural? Some people just can't get by without being told what to do.

I think you have proven sufficiently in this thread that you have no clue what you are talking about with any given topic, nor do you wish to improve, learn and be educated, you just wish to talk shit and wallow in your negativity.
Enjoy.
I'll simply stop replying to you here.

PS: I lived in Berlin for 8 years. It's a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live there again. It's a failed state within a slowly failing country - but all of that is "homemade", none of it is on the EU.

If this changes into some new law or correction to the current legislation it won't matter, companies will have to comply. Maybe only in the EU market (like with third party stores in IOS) or world wide (like USB C in Iphones) depending on what is cheaper to them.

Yes, in theory this could only be enforced in EU once it came to pass.
But in practice, A) laws like these have a tendency to trickle down to other countries eventually and B) it would most likely be easier for companies to implement end-of-life plan for everyone instead of picking and choosing.

But even if it was truly EU only, everyone else would benefit somewhat anyway due to improved game preservation.

So no, the "city X has problem Y, the EU is bad" makes no sense.

You always get some special individuals seeing anything bad happening (such as Berlin government failing at, well, anything) and blaming it on EU instead of people actually responsible.
It's tiresome, but it's what people do who just want a scapegoat.

 

[simpatico]

Just to clarify:
1. The EU is not a government, but a political and economic union.
2. The EU does not govern over specific countries or cities... How that's done depends on each state constitution and governance structure.

So no, the "city X has problem Y, the EU is bad" makes no sense.

Pretending the EU doesn't pressure member countries into following a set of rules? Poland and Hungary are being pressured by a force that doesn't exist?

 

[simpatico]

PS: I lived in Berlin for 8 years. It's a nice place to visit, but I'd never want to live there again. It's a failed state within a slowly failing country - but all of that is "homemade", none of it is on the

I guess the fact Berlin's problems look so much like every other EU metropolis is just pure coincidence. What are the odds?

 

[simpatico]

Without government rules and interventions you have monopolies, duopolies and cartels. Consumers are screwed and left with no choice. Completely free market only looks good on paper.

Americans are being scared by "communism" on every corner while living in corporate dystopian world. Some form of government regulations is needed to keep greedy corporations in

Let me walk you down where I think this will go. On consoles it's a lot more simple since you've got one source of distribution with the platform holder. On PC it will require strict regulation. Think about how Minecraft launched. Just one guy. What's to stop the next Notch from making an online game with no offline component built in for EOL? That's where things could get ugly. I'd like content regulation to stop at extreme sexual vulgarity (minors etc). I don't have a problem buying something that might not have offline bots or whatever. I like having the freedom to buy any game I want. I don't need the government to insulate me from the risk of buying a game from a disreputable publisher. I can handle those consequences on my own. If I shelled out $60 for The Crew and Ubisoft cuts the servers, shame on me for trusting Ubisoft. I mean the signs were there. I don't need the gov to step in and protect me from me.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Let me walk you down where I think this will go. On consoles it's a lot more simple since you've got one source of distribution with the platform holder. On PC it will require strict regulation. Think about how Minecraft launched. Just one guy. What's to stop the next Notch from making an online game with no offline component built in for EOL? That's where things could get ugly. I'd like content regulation to stop at extreme sexual vulgarity (minors etc). I don't have a problem buying something that might not have offline bots or whatever. I like having the freedom to buy any game I want. I don't need the government to insulate me from the risk of buying a game from a disreputable publisher. I can handle those consequences on my own. If I shelled out $60 for The Crew and Ubisoft cuts the servers, shame on me for trusting Ubisoft. I mean the signs were there. I don't need the gov to step in and protect me from me.

Actually retarded. Pure neoliberalism indoctrination.

 

[Bojji]

I guess the fact Berlin's problems look so much like every other EU metropolis is just pure coincidence. What are the odds?

Immigration problem is mostly self made for those countries, Germany 2015, France was importing people for decades - same for UK. EU is involved because those countries want to share the problem with others...



EU is doing both terrible things and great things (and everything in between), but when it comes to pro consumer stuff so far they are making our lives better.

 

[simpatico]

Actually retarded. Pure neoliberalism indoctrination.

What forms should future Notch have to fill out before releasing his game? How does that regulation work? We can't just let anyone release games without some kind of confirmation that offline bots are going to be available if the servers go down. Too risky. Swaths of Anthem gamers are on the verge of losing it all as we speak. Cannot let that happen again, no matter the cost.

 

[Paasei]

Think of this like a book. A book is also copyrighted by/for the author of said book. If I buy a book in the store, it's mine. Even when the copyright on said book has faded and given if I properly preserved the book, I can read it whenever I want. Essentially forever. The book is still available, sometimes even for free through a database, like Shakespeare. Because authors and the people who read their work find these products important to preserve for cultural and historical purposes.
To learn how people thought and went around their business back then.

Games have formed a big part of our lives. This initiative is there to make it easier to preserve this for the next generations to come. So you can learn from it or just help yourself with entertainment to everything in between. It's available for you, because it can be worth it.
Will these games still be played in the year 2244? Probably not. However, will there be some university use some of these games to teach their students how WE went around business and saw the world, and used games to express that? Who knows.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

What forms should future Notch have to fill out before releasing his game? How does that regulation work? We can't just let anyone release games without some kind of confirmation that offline bots are going to be available if the servers go down. Too risky. Swaths of Anthem gamers are on the verge of losing it all as we speak. Cannot let that happen again, no matter the cost.

Future Notch is probably just going to rely on the free steam servers. He'll be fine.

 

[mèx]

Pretending the EU doesn't pressure member countries into following a set of rules? Poland and Hungary are being pressured by a force that doesn't exist?

No, the EU does not pressure members into having the problems that you might have seen in whatever city you visited. That's on the local administrations.

For example, if a city has a subpar or neglected public transport system, that is for sure not mandated by the EU but a result of an incapable local administration.

 

[simpatico]

No, the EU does not pressure members into having the problems that you might have seen in whatever city you visited. That's on the local administrations.

For example, if a city has a subpar or neglected public transport system, that is for sure not mandated by the EU but a result of an incapable local administration.

Ever googled "EU Pressures Poland"?

 

[Bojji]

Ok we stop killing them
Will YOU keep paying for keeping them alive?

In 2025 we are paying 80 dollars for empty pieces of plastic (game key carts). They will raise prices no matter what.

 

[Sintoid]

In 2025 we are paying 80 dollars for empty pieces of plastic (game key carts). They will raise prices no matter what.

Totally unrelated to my post but ok

 

[Hudo]

Pretending the EU doesn't pressure member countries into following a set of rules? Poland and Hungary are being pressured by a force that doesn't exist?

There are a lot of mechanisms member countries like Poland and Hungary can use (and are using) so that they can resist the "pressure". Which is a blessing and a curse. But both Hungary and Poland tend to over-dramatize this (mostly for internal political capital).

 

[Bojji]

Totally unrelated to my post but ok

I understood your post as "you will pay for this because they will raise the prices (their costs will increase)". Maybe you meant something else, sorry.

 

[mèx]

Ever googled "EU Pressures Poland"?

You said this: "EU gov good? Not often you get someone to admit to that in public, but here we are. Saw some crazy stuff in Berlin 3 years ago. Far cry from what it looked like in 08 when I spent a couple months there for work."

I explained to you what the EU is and that the EU has no involvement in the direct administrations of cities. The EU is not telling countries how to develop the road infrastructure, how the police should handle crimes, how to handle homeless people, and so on. There might be a set of guidelines that need to be followed, but the failings of keeping things running as intended is on the local administrations.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Guys, stop feeding the troll. Some people don't want to be corrected, they just want to reinforce their preexisting notions of how everything is someone else's fault.
This is off-topic enough as it is...

 

[mèx]

tl;dr They are scared, expect way more interference/obstruction if this passes the valid signature threshold.

 

[ssringo]

tl;dr They are scared, expect way more interference/obstruction if this passes the valid signature threshold.

Just finished watching it myself. Kinda think it deserves its own thread so more people can see it. I hate making threads on mobile so maybe someone else will.

 

[SomeNorseGuy]

Owlcat Games is committed to delivering a great experience — no matter how long it's been since a game's release. We believe every player deserves lasting access to the games they've paid for. Take your time and learn more about the Stop Killing Games initiative and share your thoughts.
https://www.stopkillinggames.com/

------------------

You love to see it.

 

[Mithos]

 

[mèx]

Wow, there are already a lot contributions on the Digital Fairness Act page, I've already written my feedback. It doesn't take a lot of time, just a few minutes, so get to it!

Just 3 days left for the signatures, it's at 1.4M currently. I bet there are at least 200k+ signatures from bots. Let's hope for a boost in signatures in the next couple days.

 

[Mithos]

An update from the campaign.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

97% of signatures valid is amazing. And it reached like 1.2M right?

 

[Mithos]

97% of signatures valid is amazing. And it reached like 1.2M right?

~1.45 Million signatures came in.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

The corporate shills better give up already. We are playing our games forever.

'The Crew has left chat'

 

[Deerock71]

Given our current time-line, watch this somehow become the trigger for an all nuclear war with China.

 

[Mithos]

'The Crew has left chat'

TCU | News

Community project that revives The Crew (2014).

thecrewunlimited.com

When this has been vetted enough by trustworthy people.

 

[Loomy]

97% of signatures valid is amazing. And it reached like 1.2M right?

Yeah, that final push bought them around 30% margin of error(invalid signatures). That's really good.

 

[N30RYU]

I don't like killing games.... I like killing ppl in games

 

[T4keD0wN]

I don't like killing games.... I like killing ppl in games

I thought Spider-man doesnt kill people

 

[antgames]

Haha, fair enough! As long as it's all in the game, right?

I don't like killing games.... I like killing ppl in games

 

[N30RYU]

Now honestly... what is the limit then... is ok for Mario to stomp ond Goombas? Are virtual guns the problem when there are real guns in the hands of insane ppl?

Is not ok killing ppl in games or the problem is that with graphics nowadays it looks too much realistic? 'Cause if that's the point... movies are even more real then... it makes really a difference just 'cause you press a button to do so? Why not ban the toy guns our toddlers pretend to shoot everyone?

Violent and gore is part of our nature... there are numerous paintings depicting violence, and the same with many forms of art... and videogames is just one of them... videogames do not make ppl violent... uneducated, marginated and isolated ppl make them be.

My word is... just TRY to be kind with those around you... violence grow on those not being treated nice... not on those playing violent videogames or not.

 

[Mithos]

Update.

1,448,270 signatures, so far 689,035 have been verified (and counted as valid as I understand it), 15 countries have meet their threshold, I think we needed minimum of 7?
So 759,235 more signature to verify, results from Germany and France is part of that.


And a lot more information here:

 

[Griffon]

I still think this is gonna lead to the most stupid and anti-competitive laws that will do maximum punishment to small devs and reinforce big publishers grip.

Never trust out of touch regulators. Only do it in a last ditch attempt, not to save The fucking Crew of all things.

 

[SomeNorseGuy]

1. Update on the Verification Progress

Out of 1,448,270 signatures, 689,035 are already verified, and 15 countries have met their thresholds. We are still missing the two largest countries—Germany and France—but based on our current progress, we are confident we have surpassed the required thresholds.

2. Update on the DFA

The DFA's (Digital Fairness Act) feedback phase ended yesterday. Thanks to your support, it has received a record-breaking number of submissions. This level of engagement was unprecedented in EU public consultations. Thank you for your efforts.

3. Meetings

Over the past few months, we have engaged in intense discussions with:

Members of the European Parliament (MEPs)

National governments

Political parties

The European Commission

Some representatives even reached out to us proactively. Your emails made this possible.

4. Academic Support

While we cannot share too many details yet, we are actively working to secure expert backing. Having politicians, lobbyists, and developers in our ranks is invaluable, but we must credibly address the tough questions—without relying on expensive consulting firms. (We are a grassroots movement, after all.)
Once finalized, we will make a dedicated announcement. Thank you in advance to our new allies.

Why We Need Everyone, Including Studios

Why Engage with Studios?

Some may ask: "Why engage with those who created this mess?" The answer is clear: there is no monolithic "industry." The vast majority of studios—especially European ones, both indie and AAA—have always listened to players and strived to do right by the community. This issue is driven by a powerful few who do not represent the values of creators or players.

Studios Stand With Us

Many studios have not remained silent—they have stood with us. This is not just about consumer rights, though that alone should be enough. It's about what games should be:

More than sloppily assembled products

More than ignored studio visions

More than just another price tag on a shelf

Games are art. Developers—the people who craft these worlds—are almost never the problem. They suffer under the same corporate greed as players, facing crunch, rushed releases, and compromised creativity. The proof is everywhere: broken launches, abandoned projects, and exploited teams. *to make this clear, we are not making a point about how a game should be or what is considered to be "a good game", that's something very subjective. The point is that it's culture and thus needs to be protected like any piece of culture.

A call to action

Our fight is not against a united CEO front. It's against a handful of companies holding our favourite games' hostage. That's why we said "enough"—and why so many of you did too.

Let's not just talk about developers but with them, big and small, who are already resisting these awful practices. We can't undo past damage, but we can stop what's coming. If we allow these few bad actors to dictate the future, we will continue to lose ground on issues that should never have arisen.

Help raise attention

For Citizens:

Reach out to:

Your government

Consumer protection groups

Your favourite studio

For Developers (Indie or Established):

Make your voice heard. No one will blame you for stepping into the spotlight to do what's right. We are already in talks with many in the industry, but we can't be everywhere. If we've missed you (and we apologize—there are simply too many to track), please reach out to us.

We are planning public events and want to bring some of you in front of parliament to demonstrate how things could be.



Thank you for your ongoing support, we are a community project, so feel free to reach out to us at any given time (don't expect an immediate answer though).



For SKG

Policy and Communications Lead

Moritz

Seems like the initiative is in good hands.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

I still think this is gonna lead to the most stupid and anti-competitive laws that will do maximum punishment to small devs and reinforce big publishers grip.

Never trust out of touch regulators. Only do it in a last ditch attempt, not to save The fucking Crew of all things.

I, too, sometimes post the dumbest things about issues I have essentially zero knowledge about, making my lack of understanding of the issue blatantly obvious.

 

[Griffon]

I, too, sometimes post the dumbest things about issues I have essentially zero knowledge about, making my lack of understanding of the issue blatantly obvious.

If you have nothing to say, better to not say anything.

The initiative has a very naive way to approach this, none of those people will have the final say.

It'll be European representatives, who usually get their expert recommendations from industry publishers and lobbies. I wish I'm wrong and everything will go perfectly as you'd like so much, but I highly doubt it. This could go very very wrong, very very fast.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

If you have nothing to say, better to not say anything.

You should really take your own advice, because:

The initiative has a very naive way to approach this, none of those people will have the final say.

It'll be European representatives, who usually get their expert recommendations from industry publishers and lobbies. I wish I'm wrong and everything will go perfectly as you'd like so much, but I highly doubt it. This could go very very wrong, very very fast.

I, too, sometimes post the dumbest things about issues I have essentially zero knowledge about, making my lack of understanding of the issue blatantly obvious.

....

Okay, fine, because you seem unaware at how little you understand the processes you are talking about, here we go:

You seem to think "lobby" is a bad word.
Well, too bad, because the initiative and anyone interested in this succeeding IS THE LOBBY. If you support this and happen to be lucky enough to be European and able to contact EU and influence this (as over a million apparently did), YOU ARE IN THE LOBBY. Congrats.
The initiative will be the basis upon which the entire lawmaking process will happen. Publishers have already tried and utterly failed to stop this by misrepresenting the goals. They haven't even convinced the usual suspects with their fear mongering.

What, you think that once this is confirmed and goes into legislative process, everyone involved so far will just sit their asses down and wait?
Whatever you think about politicians, you'll probably agree that they like being viewed favorably and present success stories. It will be in their own best interest to make sure this will not fail, as the (aware part of the) European public is overwhelmingly on the initiative's side.
This failing would just be another blow to people's perception of EU and honestly democracy itself (as in "why bother if even this much effort leads to nothing?") - at least for those people with an interest in this.

Nah, man, once this enters into the phase of actual lawmaking where "interests" and "experts" will be heard, it is guaranteed that not only publishers will get to try and stop it, but those in favor of it will be active as well to refute all the publishers' nonsensical claims.
And all the people who got their butts up and signed the initiative are likely to remain interested and somewhat active as well.
All the calls to action so far were successful (at least once they started spreading via social media), including directly writing to representatives - this will continue as needed.

I'd also be curious about what you think would be "going very wrong".
I cannot come up with a single thing that has not already been thoroughly refuted.
The worst case scenario I can come up with is "no change at all".