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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play

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E

Endless-Bravado

Member
I may be mistaken but I thought you couldn't throw Cammy out of her V-reversal which is why it was so punishable on block. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though. Anyway, now it looks like it's more in line with the others. I guess since they didn't make her V-reversal into an overhead as well KingBroly automatically thought it was a nerf.
 
Z

Zombegoast

Member
C556D3C5A5167E8C5FD5901D182AC905D1CE05E6


A new exploit they said, it will work they said. Not when the AI starts input reading. The whole Survival Mode is just pure luck hoping the AI will bug out.
 
tragic

tragic

Developer
Karsticles said:
If those leaked patch notes are true, Bison is still ass.
Click to expand...

With all meterless reversals gone and white life regeneration being nerfed, Bison's 3F LK gives him some very interesting (and potentially devastating) pressure. No longer can you beat him (with any char basic 3F normal or DP) after df+HP or HK (among other +frame moves). What this means is people will have to "hold dat" after blocking any of his plus frame moves or risk an EX (or super).

Now, depending on the severity of the other changes, it may or may not matter all that much in the end, but as someone that played a ton of Bison in the beginning (and knew week 1 - when everyone was saying he was godlike - that he was actually one of the weakest chars in the game) I can say that a 3F normal helps him more than any other change. All of the other bonuses are just that - bonuses.

All that being said, I'm not sure it's going to lead to much interactive play. Allowing constant pressure and no meterless "yolo" options is going to be less than interesting (IMO) but I hope I'm wrong. Personally, I feel they should have added meterless reversals to every character (or at least a vast majority) so that setplay wasn't the primary way to play SFV. But yea, personal opinion here.

Additional buffs that also help are; LP comboing into Scissors (it's minor, but it helps), storing projectile (at least it makes the v-trigger SLIGHTLY useful), full-screen EX Blast, LK Scissors off LK in VT. Maybe he will be beast in this new meterless reversal age, maybe he won't... but he's definitely in a much better place considering what happened to much of the rest of the cast.
 
T

The Lone Dragon

Member
tragic said:
Personally, I feel they should have added meterless reversals to every character (or at least a vast majority) so that setplay wasn't the primary way to play SFV. But yea, personal opinion here.
Click to expand...

Set play will never be the "primary way to play SF5" because there are 3 different wakeup options.

Very few characters can cover all three timings. That's the point of having the three timings.

And, they intentionally nerfed pressure after throws mid screen, because throws only have two wakeup timings.

Unless you're in the corner, "set play" in this game is pretty weak.
 
tragic

tragic

Developer
The Lone Dragon said:
Set play will never be the "primary way to play SF5" because there are 3 different wakeup options.

Very few characters can cover all three timings. That's the point of having the three timings.

And, they intentionally nerfed pressure after throws mid screen, because throws only have two wakeup timings.

Unless you're in the corner, "set play" in this game is pretty weak.
Click to expand...

But that isn't entirely true. There are plenty of examples of mechanical setups that cover at least two of the three options and in some cases, there are options for all three. If you can cover both QR timings, you can definitely cover normal getup as well.

Example: Ryu normal sweep (non-CC), dash...
- Quick Rise: MP or c.MP or b+HK (against 4f)
- Back Rise: b+HK (note: b+HK works against QR and BR)
- Slow Getup: Frame-kill of your choice...

You can do something very similar off LK Tatsu (note: use Dash, Dash).

Obviously this is just a couple examples off the top of my head. Even just being able to cover 2/3rds of your opponents wake-up options give the attacker a very obvious advantage. This doesn't even have to be off a throw (as you can see above). In addition to that, with setups that utilize dash to frame-kill, you can use that time to determine if your opponent is quick rising or back rising and change your input on the fly to cover that instead. In quite a few scenarios, you can safely cover both quick getups with practice, and both can lead into normal getup coverage as well.

With meterless reversals for everyone, these setups (setplay) would at least be a risk. However, now they are all gone, so mechanical setups become more effective. The risk for a metered reversal is now double (not only do you get CC'ed, you waste a meter - was a CC combo not enough?).

Setplay is prevalent enough that SFV often feels monotonous. This isn't always the case, but it sometimes (often) is. It's the result of a combination of not having enough "meaningful" total options (and thus reduced variety/variance) and how the community in general has evolved and mutated (specifically in regards to digital dashes and frame kills used specifically to cover as many options as possible).

Analog timing is much less of a factor these days. If they truly wanted to reduce the concept of setplay, there are quite a few ways to go about it. As it stands now, as mentioned, there are many ways with many characters to setup options that cover a variety of countermeasures, which, by definition, reduces the risks one has to take. Combine that with zero meterless reversals for every character, and the risks of meaty pressure (and mechanical setups) becomes even less dangerous.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. I think with more recovery on things that knock down (beyond just throws), and bringing more analog elements to pressure, there would be more of an impact made on setplay in SFV.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
So you know how Juri's V-reversal does a sweep like move

I just v-reversaled an alex who parried it in v-trigger and released

His elbow went right through or over me and I punished
 
K

Karsticles

Member
tragic said:
With all meterless reversals gone and white life regeneration being nerfed, Bison's 3F LK gives him some very interesting (and potentially devastating) pressure. No longer can you beat him (with any char basic 3F normal or DP) after df+HP or HK (among other +frame moves). What this means is people will have to "hold dat" after blocking any of his plus frame moves or risk an EX (or super).

Now, depending on the severity of the other changes, it may or may not matter all that much in the end, but as someone that played a ton of Bison in the beginning (and knew week 1 - when everyone was saying he was godlike - that he was actually one of the weakest chars in the game) I can say that a 3F normal helps him more than any other change. All of the other bonuses are just that - bonuses.

All that being said, I'm not sure it's going to lead to much interactive play. Allowing constant pressure and no meterless "yolo" options is going to be less than interesting (IMO) but I hope I'm wrong. Personally, I feel they should have added meterless reversals to every character (or at least a vast majority) so that setplay wasn't the primary way to play SFV. But yea, personal opinion here.

Additional buffs that also help are; LP comboing into Scissors (it's minor, but it helps), storing projectile (at least it makes the v-trigger SLIGHTLY useful), full-screen EX Blast, LK Scissors off LK in VT. Maybe he will be beast in this new meterless reversal age, maybe he won't... but he's definitely in a much better place considering what happened to much of the rest of the cast.
Click to expand...

"Pressure" doesn't matter if you don't have anything to threaten with. With the slowest walk speed in the game, M. Bison can hardly threaten to footsie his way into grab range. He keeps pushing buttons, sure, but you only get hit if you forget to block. He can't threaten with anything else. Similarly, he has awful frame data on his dash, and he can't play footsies as well as most of the characters.

None of his problems were solved. He is still a character that has no identity or purpose. He's just trash with these changes.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Endless-Bravado said:
I may be mistaken but I thought you couldn't throw Cammy out of her V-reversal which is why it was so punishable on block. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though. Anyway, now it looks like it's more in line with the others. I guess since they didn't make her V-reversal into an overhead as well KingBroly automatically thought it was a nerf.
Click to expand...

You could throw her out of the first 4 or so frames of her V-Reversal, but that window is so short that it has to be done on prediction rather than reaction.
 
tragic

tragic

Developer
Karsticles said:
"Pressure" doesn't matter if you don't have anything to threaten with. With the slowest walk speed in the game, M. Bison can hardly threaten to footsie his way into grab range. He keeps pushing buttons, sure, but you only get hit if you forget to block. He can't threaten with anything else. Similarly, he has awful frame data on his dash, and he can't play footsies as well as most of the characters.

None of his problems were solved. He is still a character that has no identity or purpose. He's just trash with these changes.
Click to expand...

Most reports I heard mentioned a faster walk speed. Even if that isn't the case, his throw range is still one of (if not) the best. df+HP moves him forward (and gives him +1) and sets him up for a (now-uninterruptible) 3F LK, which, of course, forces opponents to either block, or get hit into ball or scissors (scissors, of course, putting you at +2, etc).

Having this frame trap opens him up for more options. This is why a 3F normal was the #1 thing he actually needed to even START competing at any sort of level. Sure, it's not the end all, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. One simple frame.

White Life regeneration change is actually a buff to the way Bison plays. One of his problems before was not having anything to really cash out the white life he built on an opponent. With it going down much slower now, he will have way more opportunities to get a hit in and take away all that he has chipped. Definitely a buff to him on a system level.

His identity is about keeping opponents on defense and coming at them over and over (at least it will be now). He could do it before to new players that didn't know what was plus and what wasn't, but now all of that doesn't matter. You can't get out of it without meter (at least that's how it sounds).

The frame data on his dash doesn't matter. He was never meant to play like S1 Nash. This is exactly why his df+HP moves forward (and his Scissors). The problem was in S1, it didn't matter if you blocked df+HP if you had a 3F jab, Now, in S2, it doesn't matter if you DO have one. df+HP on block, then LK... options. You can go LK > Blast, or LK, LK, or LK, HK, or... seriously, whatever. Just having a 3F move which cannot be beat without meter opens up a lot of opportunities for him.

Bison footsies in S1 were never like they used to be (in prior games). While his s.MK is decent, you actually would fare better with a further HP (which was actually quite a decent button from range - further than most) and could cancel into safe Scissors. On hit, Bison could (and still can) force you to block. Trying to interrupt him after Scissors hit was an exercise in futility... unless you had a reversal (most of which required meter, except for four characters).

Anyway, if you think NONE of his problems are solved, then I don't know what to tell you. The mere fact that he has (hopefully retains) a 3F normal definitely lends to the idea that at least some of his problems have been rectified.
 
W

Wallach

Member
tragic said:
Most reports I heard mentioned a faster walk speed.
Click to expand...

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't know if it is something they changed their mind on or will wind up in the final version, but there are no walk speed changes for Bison in the S2 PC build they accidentally made public.
 
K

kirblar

Member
S2 seems like they are very deliberately addressing the "no creativity in combos" thing that the game got criticized for. Chun's got options for days now, Birdie has tons of new ways to finish combos (being able to combo into LK/MK chain is huge for space control.)
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
Birdie has more options, Urien's AA game is more menacing.

Chun-Li's options specifically seem to be on the ground, as it should be. She controls the ground/spacing game.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
I don't even play Chun.

And I think that it would be such bullshit if she actually had 875 health in season 2. She is good, but she is NOT that good. EDIT2: People are saying that Mika too has 875 health? Wtf?

EDIT: Oh Cammy's DP while she's in V-Trigger is still fully invincible on startup.
 
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