Support NeoGAF

[Brobzoid]

imo the supers in this game are too useful right now to offer alternates, and making them weaker seems like it wouldn't be popular. But it might be cool if they could make 'v-sets' where you chose a set of V-skill/-trigger/-reversal. So you could have an install trigger but it came with a defensive v-skill, or you could have a non-install v-trigger and you had a offensive v-skill? For instance Ryu choosing between parry v-skill with an install v-trigger and donkey kick v-skill with a different v-trigger.

That's what I always hoped they would do when they started adding more stuff to the game (in addition to more normals and specials, tbh)

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yeah I'm not for nerfs but I would like the new CAs to have new utility

 

[Pompadour]

They really should add a 2-stock mechanic that acts like ASW Blitz Attacks. Basically a hyper armored, uncancelable, chargeable to guard crushing mechanic that wall bounces/ground bounces/launches. Everyone gets a reversal and something to continue combos or apply pressure. It can be thrown or countered by CA (as CAs ignore armor) but it addresses both lack of reversals short combos, two common complaints.

I've been trying to sell this idea for awhile but it would essentially be a better version of Abigail's V-Trigger.

 

[Sayad]

Your own connection shouldn't really affect you unless you play on a 56k modem. It's why lag switching is a thing in online FPS.

It's also why Brazilians have a better experience playing against someone in the US. But cannot be said the same for US players against Brazilians.

Rollback Netcode is suppose to fix this but Capcom made Apple Maps instead.

And honestly, why switch to Ethernet if just playing Wifi gives you the advantage?

Your connection doesn't affect you because your character runs locally in rollback net code, your connection being bad will still result in your opponent teleportation. Lag switching abuses this, but it mainly works because the lag switcher have control over when the drops happen, if those were random they would be just as much of a problem for him too.

Brazilians play better than you during lag because they're more used to playing with lag in SA, not because their bad connection give them an in game advantage. It's a P2P connection, if one side is having bad connection it's bad on both ends. The thing where it's laggy on one side but not the other is a desync bug that has nothing to do with bad connections, it can happen even when playing someone you have under 5ms of ping with!

 

[Zackat]

That video of Tom? Cannon calling out Capcom is too good. He knows exactly what is wrong with their netcode but I bet they are too proud to even give him a call. So we will be stuck with dodgy connections sometimes, when we could have them way less.

 

[sixteen-bit]

That video of Tom? Cannon calling out Capcom is too good. He knows exactly what is wrong with their netcode but I bet they are too proud to even give him a call. So we will be stuck with dodgy connections sometimes, when we could have them way less.

To proud, or too poor to license GGPO?

I mean, they've done it before (Final Fight Double Impact, Darkstalkers Ressurrection...) so I don't think it's purely pride.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I think they have it licensed.

 

[Zackat]

To proud, or too poor to license GGPO?

I mean, they've done it before (Final Fight Double Impact, Darkstalkers Ressurrection...) so I don't think it's purely pride.

I thought GGPO was cheap as fk.

Skullgirls has it right?

 

[Sayad]

To proud, or too poor to license GGPO?

I mean, they've done it before (Final Fight Double Impact, Darkstalkers Ressurrection...) so I don't think it's purely pride.

Them making their own netcode is probably more expensive than licensing GGPO, which they had no problem licensing for much smaller projects like 3sOE!

 

[Marvel]

Imagine Bison having 6 ex bars to play with.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Them making their own netcode is probably more expensive than licensing GGPO, which they had no problem licensing for much smaller projects like 3sOE!

In that case, that's silly as hell. Typical Capcom, lol. Spend more on a worse product.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Maybe it doesn't gel wth their CFN stuff? I don't know.

 

[Pompadour]

Your own connection shouldn't really affect you unless you play on a 56k modem. It's why lag switching is a thing in online FPS.

It's also why Brazilians have a better experience playing against someone in the US. But cannot be said the same for US players against Brazilians.

Rollback Netcode is suppose to fix this but Capcom made Apple Maps instead.

And honestly, why switch to Ethernet if just playing Wifi gives you the advantage?

Your own connection affects you because your connection affects your opponent and since SFV is rollback netcode eventually the two states have to resolve.

Rollback basically predicts what's going to happen in the near future so neither player has to wait for their opponent's inputs. They just keep playing and if the prediction was correct it feels completely lagless.

However, when the prediction is wrong the game rewinds back to before the prediction and presents what actually happened (the game says you landed a hit, rollback happens, they blocked). The problem with WiFi is the connection is less stable than ethernet so the game can potentially lose more updates which causes rollbacks to occur more frequently.

WiFi isn't the better option because it seems the one sided lag issue is random. So if your connection is laggy you might take the brunt of that lag. WiFi really only seems beneficial if you're playing a yolo character like Ken. I don't have trouble with Ken in SFV but if the connection is a mess random DPs suddenly become the best move in the game.

 

[Turbanator]

What sort of resources should V-Cancel use? I was thinking 1 V-bar, but then many characters with V-Triggers used almost exclusively for cancels (Ryu and Laura come to mind) would just never use their VT because VC is just a much better option. That also gives characters with 3-bar VTs a much bigger advantage than even having 3 VR's gave them.

Maybe 1 V-bar and 1 EX bar would be a good cost? It's a decently high cost to encourage conservative use, and it dilutes the big advantage 3-bars get over 2-bars.

To proud, or too poor to license GGPO?

I mean, they've done it before (Final Fight Double Impact, Darkstalkers Ressurrection...) so I don't think it's purely pride.

Considering MKX and IJ2 don't use it either, I highly doubt it's a money thing. It's probably incredibly resource intensive, which is why we've only seen it on weaker or older games.

 

[lucebuce12]

The one benefit of making your own netcode is that it's yours. You can use it across different games with no licensing issues, and you don't have to worry about any legal issues or licenses that have expiry dates. You can also tamper with it or improve it as you please.

NRS and Microsoft (KI) did the exact same thing and made their own proprietary rollback netcode which works BEAUTIFULLY.

Problem is Capcpom half-assed it like always.

 

[Pompadour]

Them making their own netcode is probably more expensive than licensing GGPO, which they had no problem licensing for much smaller projects like 3sOE!

Capcom started experimenting with rollback netcode with SFxT and this was way before GGPO was adapted to work on Unreal Engine and 3D games. There's no reason to believe GGPO is something you can slap on any game and it'll work. GGPO puts a strain on games which is why it's no issue to stick that on a port of a 2D game running on a modern console.

So it's a balancing act between good graphics, framerate, and roll back. I'm guessing Capcom realized rollback was a great idea but if they were going to have to modify it heavily to work with their games, why not just make their own?

 

[Pompadour]

That video of Tom? Cannon calling out Capcom is too good. He knows exactly what is wrong with their netcode but I bet they are too proud to even give him a call. So we will be stuck with dodgy connections sometimes, when we could have them way less.

I watched that video too. He had a guess as to what caused the desync but he repeatedly clarified that he doesn't know for sure because he didn't work on SFV.

 

[Sayad]

In that case, that's silly as hell. Typical Capcom, lol. Spend more on a worse product.

Companies prefer having their own stuff if they could, didn't NRS(or was that KI) bring the GPPO team in to help while making their own roll back netcode?! That gotta cost way more than just licensing GGPO.

Capcom didn't get much criticism for their SFxT netcode after fixing the sound issues, so they probably thought their netcode was good enough.

 

[Nemesis121]

God i hate how lazy Capcom is with Abigail hitbox,they did the same fucking thing with Hugo, Abigail crouching is taller than Ryu standing, yet many high normals miss him, similar to how Sagat high Fireball went straight through Hugo's head when he was crouching...

I cut off the top of pic to remove my shameful rank lol

lol this shit is just bad , Ryu's St HK misses, his spin kicks does, i need to go through the roster and see how much shit misses...

 

[Zackat]

If vcancels end up being a thing idk how they will balance that with needing to use reversals and getting your vtrigger. I suppose that's the point though - having more options.

Interesting conundrum

 

[Marvel]

I'm playing much better atm, guess getting more sleep does help.

 

[vg260]

The one benefit of making your own netcode is that it's yours. You can use it across different games with no licensing issues, and you don't have to worry about any legal issues or licenses that have expiry dates. You can also tamper with it or improve it as you please.

NRS and Microsoft (KI) did the exact same thing and made their own proprietary rollback netcode which works BEAUTIFULLY.

Problem is Capcpom half-assed it like always.

I always found it funny how Boon thew around the term GGPO in his tweets when hyping their netcode improvements.

 

[lucebuce12]

I'll repost it again for people who haven't seen it.

This GGPO EVO panel doesn't have enough views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9JTIn1SVQ4

Especially the part starting at 19min with a good explanation of how rollback netcode works, which a lot of people still don't understand.

Later on (around 31:20) there is an explanation about "the rift", a problem SFV has.

The biggest de-sync problems that SFV faces is a problem that the GGPO devs HAVE encountered and fixed.

I always found it funny how Boon thew around the term GGPO in his tweets when hyping their netcode improvements.

It's not actual GGPO but I DO believe they got people from GGPO to consult/help in the development so there is at least some involvement from the GGPO devs.

 

[VariantX]

The one benefit of making your own netcode is that it's yours. You can use it across different games with no licensing issues, and you don't have to worry about any legal issues or licenses that have expiry dates. You can also tamper with it or improve it as you please.

NRS and Microsoft (KI) did the exact same thing and made their own proprietary rollback netcode which works BEAUTIFULLY.

Problem is Capcpom half-assed it like always.

Yeah, I feel like capcom really cut some corners here. And whatever money they thought they saved is pretty much rendered pointless by however much they potentially lost in terms of addon content sales and word of mouth just from people having a bad experience. Bite the bullet and fix it, don't care how they do it or how they feel about it. Fix it. That video where two systems were right next to each other playing and the other one has a teleporting character is an embarrassment and they should be talking about how they're working on improving it as much as they can.

 

[CountBlack]

God i hate how lazy Capcom is with Abigail hitbox,they did the same fucking thing with Hugo, Abigail crouching is taller than Ryu standing, yet many high normals miss him, similar to how Sagat high Fireball went straight through Hugo's head when he was crouching...

I cut off the top of pic to remove my shameful rank lol


lol this shit is just bad , Ryu's St HK misses, his spin kicks does, i need to go through the roster and see how much shit misses...

Certain attacks specifically don't hit crouching characters, regardless of how tall they are.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

God i hate how lazy Capcom is with Abigail hitbox,they did the same fucking thing with Hugo, Abigail crouching is taller than Ryu standing, yet many high normals miss him, similar to how Sagat high Fireball went straight through Hugo's head when he was crouching...

I cut off the top of pic to remove my shameful rank lol

lol this shit is just bad , Ryu's St HK misses, his spin kicks does, i need to go through the roster and see how much shit misses...

Its not really them being lazy but rather they're being consistent with gameplay rules.
IIRC, when Hugo first dropped in Ultra, he couldn't crouch under things like Sagat's high tiger shot and it made certain matchups pretty much impossible.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yeah, I feel like capcom really cut some corners here. And whatever money they thought they saved is pretty much rendered pointless by however much they potentially lost in terms of addon content sales and word of mouth just from people having a bad experience. Bite the bullet and fix it, don't care how they do it or how they feel about it. Fix it. That video where two systems were right next to each other playing and the other one has a teleporting character is an embarrassment and they should be talking about how they're working on improving it as much as they can.

That video isn't fair since it's on the same network.

 

[Pompadour]

I don't think the netcode will be fixed unless it's developed in the West. I'm sure lots of netcodes play fine in a super dense country with great infrastructure like Japan.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I wonder if someone will mod the game to make Abigail smaller so more animations make sense

 

[Nemesis121]

Its not really them being lazy but rather they're being consistent with gameplay rules.
IIRC, when Hugo first dropped in Ultra, he couldn't crouch under things like Sagat's high tiger shot and it made certain matchups pretty much impossible.

Those rules shouldn't fit this character but that's my logical thinking other people seem fine with it..

 

[TheSpoiler]

Those rules shouldn't fit this character but that's my logical thinking other people seem fine with it..

Do you think hitboxes and hurtboxes should be perfect 1:1 ratios for all characters then?

 

[Turbanator]

Once again, balance and mechanical consistency is more important than adhering to the rules of physics in a fighting game.

 

[lucebuce12]

Once again, balance and mechanical consistency is more important than adhering to the rules of physics in a fighting game.

Then how do you explain the titty bounce?

 

[Turbanator]

Then how do you explain the titty bounce?

That has nothing to do with balance, so bounce away.

Unless you're Juri. Her boobs shouldn't be big enough to bounce.

Why'd they give her implants again?

 

[lucebuce12]

I've lost many Chun matches because I was too distracted by the bounce.

 

[Marvel]

Chun's battle outfit shouldn't be trny legal. It's hypnotic.

 

[Skilletor]

I've lost many Chun matches because I was too distracted by the bounce.

How will you ever win a match in DoA?

 

[Turbanator]

Hey Luce, when you play DoA, set the physics to DoA (lol) or OMG (lmao) and shake your controller.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Then how do you explain the titty bounce?

In my logical mind and logical way of thinking, those should be two separate hurtboxes. But other people seem fine with it...

 

[lucebuce12]

How will you ever win a match in DoA?

Well the netcode is so bad and the playerbase is so small that won't be an issue.

Might be in DoA6 though!

Hey Luce, when you play DoA, set the physics to DoA (lol) or OMG (lmao) and shake your controller.

Sweet Moses.

 

[Sayad]

Capcom started experimenting with rollback netcode with SFxT and this was way before GGPO was adapted to work on Unreal Engine and 3D games. There's no reason to believe GGPO is something you can slap on any game and it'll work. GGPO puts a strain on games which is why it's no issue to stick that on a port of a 2D game running on a modern console.

First GGPO 3D game came out in 2010, way before SFxT, also, the biggest hurdle to implementing GGPO is your game being able to roll back and both SFxT and SFV already can do it, once you have that, GGPO isn't something you implement deep into your engine, it just sees the inputs and issue roll backs requests based on those, how the game apply the roll back or even decide if one is necessary is something GGPO has nothing to do with.

 

[kirblar]

Those rules shouldn't fit this character but that's my logical thinking other people seem fine with it..

That's not "your logical thinking" its you prioritizing aesthetics over gameplay.

Hugo and Abi get to duck this stuff because otherwise zoning matchups get even worse than they already are.

 

[bob_arctor]

I wonder if someone will mod the game to make Abigail smaller so more animations make sense

Well, one of the tire-less mods did shrink his shoulders a bit so I guess it's possible.

 

[Pompadour]

First GGPO 3D game came out in 2010, way before SFxT, also, the biggest hurdle to implementing GGPO is your game being able to roll back and both SFxT and SFV already can do it, once you have that, GGPO isn't something you implement deep into your engine, it just sees the inputs and issue roll backs requests based on those, how the game apply the roll back or even decide if one is necessary is something GGPO has nothing to do with.

Out of curiosity, what game are you talking about?

 

[Zombegoast]

Just when we where talking about rollback, I ran into Luisblanka who is a lag switcher that plays Urien.

Not me but here's him doing the same trick against me. Also he's in Diamond.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Rr-bs57ec

 

[Omnistalgic]

wow...This guys Ray Ray on CFN chun is friggin annoying! He presses her lk on wakeup like every time! Ungghh...I wish my offline timing was good enough online. I should be stuffing these 3 frame jabs!

Unghh....

 

[mbpm1]

Those rules shouldn't fit this character but that's my logical thinking other people seem fine with it..

If they did that balancing would Hard as fuck. I'd welcome a different approach that would have advantages as well as disadvantages to a true giant, but we all know capcom won't do that

 

[lucebuce12]

wow...This guys Ray Ray on CFN chun is friggin annoying! He presses her lk on wakeup like every time! Ungghh...I wish my offline timing was good enough online. I should be stuffing these 3 frame jabs!

Unghh....

You mean the Mahvel player Ray Ray?

 

[Sayad]

God i hate how lazy Capcom is with Abigail hitbox,they did the same fucking thing with Hugo, Abigail crouching is taller than Ryu standing, yet many high normals miss him, similar to how Sagat high Fireball went straight through Hugo's head when he was crouching...

I cut off the top of pic to remove my shameful rank lol

lol this shit is just bad , Ryu's St HK misses, his spin kicks does, i need to go through the roster and see how much shit misses...

That may not be his hurtboxes, could be those moves having a property to not hit crouching characters, ie, Urien's high fireball pass through his standing hurt box without hitting him(same with Gief and FANG) because it doesn't hit grounded characters. You can check where his hurt box start without the hitbox viewer by seeing how high can he be hit from jump ins.

 

[mbpm1]

wow...This guys Ray Ray on CFN chun is friggin annoying! He presses her lk on wakeup like every time! Ungghh...I wish my offline timing was good enough online. I should be stuffing these 3 frame jabs!

Unghh....

What do you expect, he's a top Marvel player