Support NeoGAF

[Earthpainting]

I'm not a huge fan of the "strong" female character, but I think it's a necessary step to improvement. I think what we need is volume. "Better" is nice to want, but realistically I think "more" is more attainable, and is the stepping stone to "better". I don't think the quality of characterisation and writing is where it should be, and great male characters are kind of far in between. When the idea of the straight white male Default erodes a bit, good representation of other demographics is bound to appear every now and then too. Developers, publishers and especially certain subsections of the gaming audience still need people of other races, genders and sexualities to be normalised to them.

When I talk to my friends and colleagues, they seem to mostly gravitate towards Bioware and Bethesda RPGs, Japanese RPGs, and visual novels. Not because they are necessarily great in terms of representation, but because they more often acknowledge that women exist in all rungs of society. You'll have female party members, NPCs, villains and henchmen enemies. I think the latter is an often overlooked part of representation. Just having some female mooks something publishers and developers aren't very comfortable with, since it gets associated with domestic violence. I understand that this is a hurdle, but I think it should be fine as long as it isn't depicted as gendered violence drenched in gendered insults.

Either way, once we have the volume problem sorted, the industry will seem like a more open and inclusive place. There is a lot less pressure on female or minority creators if they are making another drop in the bucket. As long as the numbers stay low, they might feel like they are carrying the legitimacy of their demographic on their shoulders. Similarly people will stop seeing feminist conspiracies in every game with a female MC if female leads are common.

 

[Elephant]

For me it's a case of average writers shoehorning characters into their scripts to appease an audience, that usually stick out like a sore thumb as a result. By forcing themselves to appease that audience, they tend to alienate them further by presenting a weak parody of how a woman, or a different ethnicity, actually behaves.

It's a huge eye-roller when you see a character whose only purpose is to nullify any kind of backlash from a group who feels under represented, or to provide a romantic option for their main character because the writer can't think of any other way to flesh out their story. If you can't write these characters naturally, then you shouldn't be writing these characters at all.

As an example, Catwoman really pissed me off in the Telltale Batman game. Nearly every interaction you have with her is trying to force a romantic dynamic, instead of building her as a character. Do you want to smooch her? Do you want to bonk her? Do you want to suck her face off goodbye? No, I don't. You've given me no reason to want to do any of this stuff, except present it as an option. This might be enough for sexually frustrated teenagers, but it's lazy.

 

[Monocle]

Samus, while not particularly complex, constituted a strong female character because she was an independent bounty hunter who, despite her efficacy in survival and combat situations, still felt compassion towards the helpless. She is a character that survives purely on her own skills and expertise in hostile conditions, but shows a disposition towards learning about the cultures and environments she explores. You can make a case for Samus on her representation in most of her games - particular Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. The fact she is a badass soldier is second to the characteristics that comprise her identity. Samus is definitely understated, but this is perhaps expected in a series where she is usually the only character, but the character is still there.

A case for Bayonetta is much harder to make, and I have not heard one that is particularly convincing. I think the strongest argument you can make is that she's not as bad as other sexualized female protagonists because she supposedly owns her own sexuality. But I don't think you can say she is particularly strong or well-written.

There is a particular argument to be made within the context of witches, though. The witch myth is rooted in a distrust in women and goes back to ancient human societies. Women who congregated together, or showed an interest in education, or were unpopular in communities, were accused of or branded as witches. Being labeled a witch was a death sentence. It was something you could not defend yourself from being or clear your name over - you were usually just maimed and executed. One of the most common and most prevailing descriptions of witches has always been their promiscuity and seductive nature, because women having sex is obviously sinister and evil, so describing witches as perversely sexual was a way to degrade women and their sexuality simultaneously.

Of course, men could not sexualize witches forever without also wanting to fuck them. So sexy witch archetypes became pretty common and gave rise to the magical femme fatale. These women, while empowered, were still considered wicked. The difference was now their body and sexuality was on display for a male audience. This is a juxtaposition I think is especially heinous - the idea that sexually empowered women are synonymous with wicked and evil while also existing to illicit your erection. It really builds up the mental construct that you should both hate and want to fuck women at the same time.

The difference with Bayonetta, and this why I do give her some credit, is that Bayonetta is not stigmatized. She is not adversarial to the player (like the enemy witch in Brandish, for example). Bayonetta is meant to be the heroine, and the player is supposed to like her, and the player is supposed to see a typically demonized archetype as an individual with a motive that they want to see succeed. Her being a witch is what makes her powerful as opposed to an end-all-be-all label of disempowerment. Being sexually assertive and owning it isn't enough to be a "strong female character", but in the subversive context of witch lore, it's not as bad. That's why I kind of write-off Bayonetta. She's not a deep or nuanced leading woman, and she is still symptomatic of the kinds of women men too oft write, but she is somewhat enriched by context.

So Samus is good.

Bayonetta, eh. If she's strong, it's not for the reasons most people argue. It's for the subversive context. I haven't played either Bayonetta games, so I couldn't tell you.

It's actually rather easy to make a case for Bayonetta being a strong female character, since, apart from her personal traits which I'll outline below, her entire first game is a deconstruction of patriarchal religion and sexist tropes in media. She doesn't just subvert the sexy witch archetype and dodge stigmatization, she literally

Spoiler

shoots her personal embodiment of patriarchy in the face, gets saved from enslavement not by the dopey man who pines for her, but by her dearest friend, a fellow Umbran sister, and then she punches God into the sun when the same controlling father she shot in the face merges with the deity.

The game is an outrageous, subversive, tongue-in-cheek celebration of powerful women. Not only their physical or magical power, but their inner strength as well.

Now, as for Bayonetta herself, she's not merely a strong female with her tits out like Kate Beaton's hilarious comic, and not just a woman who embraces her sexuality. She's portrayed (though not with the most naturalistic writing) as a loyal, brave, sensitive, and compassionate person who saves her friends and earns the respect of every major male character in the game, including supreme badass Rodin, who

Spoiler

is probably Lucifer himself.

I suggest you avoid watching Bayonetta's cutscenes out of context, since the plot heavy ones are rather stilted, but I will say that Bayonetta is not a character you can accurately judge without playing at least her first game. Its whole presentation uses Bayonetta's empowered femininity as its focal point, from the in-game camera highlighting her cavorting and posing (replete with knowing winks), to the eulogistic lyrics of her theme song. She's a woman on a journey to rediscover herself, but at the same time she gets to the moment and exult in what she's good at: conquering her oppressors and protecting those in need in high style.

 

[Cloukyo]

I agree.

Think there was a feminist frequency video about it. A character like Lightning may look 'strong' for her ability to beat people up. But she is just badly written, boring gender swapped Cloud, most likely the directors ideal...


Estelle from TITS is a great example of an interesting, likable character with flaws, strengths, humor, good development. Its quite rare in games.

But lightning isn't a good example to use because she is almost universally hated and considered a mary sue amongst most western FF fans.

Similarly, most fans of trails in the sky love Estelle as a character (fucking adore her, her and Laura/Fie from Cold Steel).

Tifa is still my favourite "character" in video games. FF7 might be pretty unsophisticated when it comes to how it tells its story (limitations of being made in the 90s imo) but she was a great character. Beautiful but not cocky about it, strong willed and determined but also had a heart of gold, a great fighter who can take care of herself, but at the same time not to the point where she's Mary Sue'd.

I know people blast rpgs for having shit plots, but I think the length of them at least gives them the opportunity to flesh out characters.

Cinematic shootbag games will never be able to do that, no matter how long their shitty cutscenes are.

It's actually rather easy to make a case for Bayonetta being a strong female character, since, apart from her personal traits which I'll outline below, her entire first game is a deconstruction of patriarchal religion and sexist tropes in media. She doesn't just subvert the sexy witch archetype and dodge stigmatization, she literally

Spoiler

shoots her personal embodiment of patriarchy in the face, gets saved from enslavement not by the dopey man who pines for her, but by her dearest friend, a fellow Umbran sister, and then she punches God into the sun when the same controlling father she shot in the face merges with the deity.

The game is an outrageous, subversive, tongue-in-cheek celebration of powerful women. Not only their physical or magical power, but their inner strength as well.

Now, as for Bayonetta herself, she's not merely a strong female with her tits out like Kate Beaton's hilarious comic, and not just a woman who embraces her sexuality. She's portrayed (though not with the most naturalistic writing) as a loyal, brave, sensitive, and compassionate person who saves her friends and earns the respect of every major male character in the game, including supreme badass Rodin, who

Spoiler

is probably Lucifer himself.

I suggest you avoid watching Bayonetta's cutscenes out of context, since the plot heavy ones are rather stilted, but I will say that Bayonetta is not a character you can accurately judge without playing at least her first game. Its whole presentation uses Bayonetta's empowered femininity as its focal point, from in-game camera highlighting her cavorting and posing (complete with knowing winks), to the eulogistic lyrics of her theme song. She's a woman on a journey to rediscover herself, but at the same time she gets to the moment and exult in what she's good at: conquering her oppressors and protecting those in need in high style.

Bayonetta is a brilliant female character. I wouldn't call her a deep character, but what she represents and the way she characterises herself is exactly what makes me say that the "Hurrr write a guy and then switch genders" is a shitty way of doing things.

She embraces her femininity and wields it with class and style, not just sexually, but via her dedication, loyalty, and compassion.

Sadly most people don't "get" bayonetta as a character. They think she's the standard token "girl with guns" trope, when in reality she represents much more. I do hate the "male gaze" criticism of her too.

 

[Loona]

How are neither of you naming Tifa, Celes, Rikku, Rydia or Prishe?

Even the FFXIV example is missing Yugiri, Moenbryda and Merlwyb. Merlwyb!

Is this "name the opposite of the Best Girls" day?

IMO Prishe isn't even the most interestingly written female character in her own XI expansion. SE has done a generally horrible job at making people aware of characters in that game...
Off the top of my head, Shikaree Z/Mhag and Esha'ntarl have more interesting story developments in Chains of Promathia alone, considering their self-inflicted missions and life changes as depicted in that storyline, which is quite the ensemble piece.

From the wider XI setting I'd also point to Curilla, Princess Claidie, Cornelia (mostly the present one, but there's a lot of merit to the backstory one too), Perih Vashai, Yve'noile, Nashmeira, Mihli Aliapoh, Lilith (and Lilisette by extension and contrast).

Shantotto!

Shantotto is powerful, amusing and shrewd, but in terms of story and characterization she's both more of a immovable object and unstoppable force than characters and events are impaled against than a plausible or interesting character.

SE seems to have never cared much about XI and its characters - when they releases Itadaki Street Special they depicted actual characters from XII in it before that game was out, but the XI representative was a generic tarutaru, one of the game's races, not an actual character.

By the time Dissidia was planned they had to pick an actual character, and I guess they figured most of the cast consisted of guys who hit things with swords, so to balance things they could use more females and mages, so XI delivered through Shantotto, but as an side-effect she became the only character people know from her game, despite not being important for most of XI's major stories - most XI stories tend to have a female character in a prominent role, it's just that Shantotto isn't one of them, except in her own expansion, which was released, and probably planned, after Dissidia,..

 

[Cloukyo]

IMO Prishe isn't even the most interestingly written female character in her own XI expansion. SE has done a generally horrible job at making people aware of characters in that game...
Off the top of my head, Shikaree Z/Mhag and Esha'ntarl have more interesting story developments in Chains of Promathia alone, considering their self-inflicted missions and life changes as depicted in that storyline, which is quite the ensemble piece.

From the wider XI setting I'd also point to Curilla, Princess Claidie, Cornelia (mostly the present one, but there's a lot of merit to the backstory one too), Perih Vashai, Yve'noile, Nashmeira, Mihli Aliapoh, Lilith (and Lilisette by extension and contrast).



Shantotto is powerful, amusing and shrewd, but in terms of story and characterization she's both more of a immovable object and unstoppable force than characters and events are impaled against than a plausible or interesting character.

SE seems to have never cared much about XI and its characters - when they releases Itadaki Street Special they depicted actual characters from XII in it before that game was out, but the XI representative was a generic tarutaru, one of the game's races, not an actual character.

By the time Dissidia was planned they had to pick an actual character, and I guess they figured most of the cast consisted of guys who hit things with swords, so to balance things they could use more females and mages, so XI delivered through Shantotto, but as an side-effect she became the only character people know from her game, despite not being important for most of XI's major stories - most XI stories tend to have a female character in a prominent role, it's just that Shantotto isn't one of them, except in her own expansion, which was released, and probably planned, after Dissidia,..

Shantoto are unique to FFXI though, so maybe they thought from a character roster perspective it'd be good to put the token tiny character from the least plot-heavy FF.

 

[Loona]

Shantoto are unique to FFXI though, so maybe they thought from a character roster perspective it'd be good to put the token tiny character from the least plot-heavy FF.

You really have no idea of the amount of plot XI has, do you?
Chains of Promathia alone has been considered on par or superior to some of the other FF games.

Edit: here's just about every story scene in the game if you want to get some perspective on the amount of story content, and a lot of it interconnects in indirect ways.

 

[Tajaz2426]

That's still a rather narrow set of qualities for male characters.

Isn't part of this issue tied into the game design itself? If you're making a shooter the main character is kinda limited. Nathan Drake pushes the situation to the limit by already feeling out of place but he's still a tough guy. Leaning further away from action man would just make the gameplay itself feel even stranger, right? I would make a terrible shooter character, for instance. It's a dilemma in the AAA space in many ways since there aren't exactly that many different types of games being made. Once you jump into indie titles and the like there is much more variety in characters and game design, right?

It's almost less about characters and more about "tell more interesting stories" and "make different types of games"

Exactly, developers are put in a corner by who the biggest audience is and what they expect in characters. Shooters often have gritty characters, whether they are male or female. If the core audience doesn't agree with how the characters of the game should be for that particular genre, then the game is more than likely dead in the water.

 

[Zakalwe]

I agree, writing in gaming needs to grow up. There's no excuse to rely heavily on tropes and using people for props etc... not every game is going to have the best characters/writing, but moving away from idea that "badass" is the best way to show "strong" is somewhere we could focus to aid the transition toward equal representation while also highlighting a simple way to improve game writing across the board.

People saying "this happens to men too", that's obvious and doesn't really need to be said. OP is more than aware of that, right now female characters need more representation, and it's good to focus on how this is being handled and offer ways to improve it. It doesn't mean that poorly written men are being ignored, and it will also inspire better writing for male characters and writing in games in general.

 

[Altairre]

For me it's a case of average writers shoehorning characters into their scripts to appease an audience, that usually stick out like a sore thumb as a result. By forcing themselves to appease that audience, they tend to alienate them further by presenting a weak parody of how a woman, or a different ethnicity, actually behaves.

It's a huge eye-roller when you see a character whose only purpose is to nullify any kind of backlash from a group who feels under represented, or to provide a romantic option for their main character because the writer can't think of any other way to flesh out their story. If you can't write these characters naturally, then you shouldn't be writing these characters at all.

As an example, Catwoman really pissed me off in the Telltale Batman game. Nearly every interaction you have with her is trying to force a romantic dynamic, instead of building her as a character. Do you want to smooch her? Do you want to bonk her? Do you want to suck her face off goodbye? No, I don't. You've given me no reason to want to do any of this stuff, except present it as an option. This might be enough for sexually frustrated teenagers, but it's lazy.

I get what you're saying but I'm going to strongly disagree with you on this example. I actually thought that Telltale handled the character of Catwoman surprisingly well in a way I really did not expect. If anything I'd say she wasn't in it enough. Here are two articles that mirror my thoughts and go a little bit more into detail on why and how they did a pretty good job with her:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-need-to-talk-about-catwoman/
http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/26/13408866/telltale-batman-catwoman-sex-scene

 

[SOLDIER]

I agree.

Think there was a feminist frequency video about it. A character like Lightning may look 'strong' for her ability to beat people up. But she is just badly written, boring gender swapped Cloud, most likely the directors ideal...


Estelle from TITS is a great example of an interesting, likable character with flaws, strengths, humor, good development. Its quite rare in games.

Boy do I get tired of people saying this.

Cloud was never as cold and aggressive as Lightning was in her original game. When things eventually reach Lightning Returns, it becomes a literal plot point to have Lightning stripped of all emotion so that she can focus on her mission and not be super sad about her sister or friends.

This is why I can't bring myself to cite Lightning as a positive or negative portrayal of a "strong female character", because the writers do such an awful job portraying her that her gender literally has no bearing. She might as well be a custom made character in LR.

And that's not mentioning the ludicrous amounts of Mary Sue going on, where every single character (be it an original NPC or former party member) relies on Lightning to help them out of their respective predicaments, because Lightning is the savior and the greatest and bestest character ever and also really good at sports and can totally get your taxes done on time.

 

[Aostia]

I agree with he general statement OP is communicating but I would.just like to u decline that to me "complex and nuanced charactera" aren't usually written in videogame plot neither for male characters

 

[Cloukyo]

You really have no idea of the amount of plot XI has, do you?

Nope. My mistake.

My point remains to a degree though? They probably wanted a more unique character design, non-humanoid, which is why they chose the shantoto.

 

[Zakalwe]

I agree with he general statement OP is communicating but I would.just like to u decline that to me "complex and nuanced charactera" aren't usually written in videogame plot neither for male characters

We're all aware of this.

The point is female representation is lacking in general, so while we're calling for /more/ female representation we should be calling for /better/, too. It'll help across the board, so everyone wins!

I mean at the very least: if we're going for equal representation we may as well shoot for quality too, right?

 

[Cloukyo]

I agree, writing in gaming needs to grow up. There's no excuse to rely heavily on tropes and using people for props etc... not every game is going to have the best characters/writing, but moving away from idea that "badass" is the best way to show "strong" is somewhere we could focus to aid the transition toward equal representation while also highlighting a simple way to improve game writing across the board.

People saying "this happens to men too", that's obvious and doesn't really need to be said. OP is more than aware of that, right now female characters need more representation, and it's good to focus on how this is being handled and offer ways to improve it. It doesn't mean that poorly written men are being ignored, and it will also inspire better writing for male characters and writing in games in general.

I think the point being made from people is that writing in games in general could be better. So saying "women need to be written better" is a pointless thing to say, because it applies to all aspects of gaming narrative, not just women.

The argument "there needs to be more women in games" could be made, if it weren't for the fact that women are represented way more than you'd imagine at this point, considering most scenario writers are men. Most men are more comfortable writing male characters, most women are more comfortable writing female characters (this is evident in literature in a big way).

The main audience for shootybangbang games are guys, the games are usually made by guys, so it stands to reason that MCs will be cardboard cut-out grizzled male characters (not saying I agree with this, Bayonetta is my favourite action game character).

And thankfully plenty of wrpgs let you choose gender, and jrpgs are party based so you usually have a mix of genders.

Fighting games let you choose gender.

Aside from that you've mostly got legacy characters who started out as men so it's hard to change them.

I think in terms of representation we're at a pretty good point. With Aloy, 2B, Persona and Mass Effect coming out, we've got the four biggest games this year with female party members (aside from Zelda but whatever, I like this Link and Princess Zelda looks lovely).

So yeah, representation isn't really the problem here imo. It's presentation which is the problem, something that is shit in all aspects, regardless of race, gender, or even species...


...

As a leftie I am annoyed that the character that represented us (Link) is now a rightie. That's some bullshit right there.

Boy do I get tired of people saying this.

Cloud was never as cold and aggressive as Lightning was in her original game. When things eventually reach Lightning Returns, it becomes a literal plot point to have Lightning stripped of all emotion so that she can focus on her mission and not be super sad about her sister or friends.

This is why I can't bring myself to cite Lightning as a positive or negative portrayal of a "strong female character", because the writers do such an awful job portraying her that her gender literally has no bearing. She might as well be a custom made character in LR.

And that's not mentioning the ludicrous amounts of Mary Sue going on, where every single character (be it an original NPC or former party member) relies on Lightning to help them out of their respective predicaments, because Lightning is the savior and the greatest and bestest character ever and also really good at sports and can totally get your taxes done on time.

Yeah, it's generally agreed that lightning is a shit character in general.

Cloud was great, he has interesting motivations, a past that you unravelled across the course of the plot, he developed over the course of the plot. His cold attitude was revealed to be a facade quite early on, and he honestly cherished his friends like a regular guy would. If you're going to bring up Final Fantasy there were plenty of great female characters, picking on Lightning was low hanging fruit.

 

[Zakalwe]

I think the point being made from people is that writing in games in general could be better. So saying "women need to be written better" is a pointless thing to say, because it applies to all aspects of gaming narrative, not just women.

Not meaning to be rude, but I'm not sure why you're replying to me with this. I understand the point they're making, but this topic is about female representation specifically which is undeniably in a worse place than male. Yes it's getting better, but it definitely still needs focus.

Obviously writing needs to improve across the board, but while we're focusing on the issue of female representation as a whole we should also focus on the quality of that representation.

Doing so doesn't take away from the fact male characters are badly written, too, and it's a pretty trite point to even bring up here as we're all aware of it.

At best it's obvious, at worst it's dismissive (to varying degrees, of course).

 

[Aostia]

We're all aware of this.

The point is female representation is lacking in general, so while we're calling for /more/ female representation we should be calling for /better/, too. It'll help across the board, so everyone wins!

I mean at the very least: if we're going for equal representation we may as well shoot for quality too, right?

Yes, I agree.
I would just say that due to a quality issue (or a stereotyped target message) even the male character that must be "strong", usually in videogame are just "badasses"

It would be good to have more complex character portraits in general, and I Hinksey that shoot for equality means to ask for better character profiles, ditto

 

[mckmas8808]

Oh shit I procrastinated on uni essays by writing an essay about female representation in gaming instead whoops

here u go


tl;dr: don't write """strong""" women, write women the same way you write straight white dudes, i.e. as people

Discuss!

While I don't have a problem per say with the author of this.....it does seem slightly odd for the OP to say, "don't say strong woman". Like there's no way we need to start making strong woman into some kind of negative.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I mean, Chloe and Elena are amazing and they're from Uncharted, a very shoot-bang game. It's possible to have action and good characters.

I'd call them the exception to the rule, but even they fall into the mass murderer with a cause category.

 

[Cloukyo]

While I don't have a problem per say with the author of this.....it does seem slightly odd for the OP to say, "don't say strong woman". Like there's no way we need to start making strong woman into some kind of negative.

I think the point is that the phrase "strong woman" is misunderstood and usually just leads to standard badass girl with guns stereotype.

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

I would agree with all the above eminently and it's one area where I think the politics-in-games discussion has some resonance. I get the impression a lot of games play the 'strong female character' as a kind of political obligation: "look at us, aren't we great (now buy our game)".

I would much rather a dev who didn't get why female positivity in games is valuable just stick to their male-lead miopia rather than cramming in a 'spunky' female characters. Truth be told, this is why I don't believe in pressuring big publishers to be 'more diverse' - a lot of them treat it like a checkbox exercise. What we really need to do is support more female-lead development teams.

Just my thoughts.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think the point is that the phrase "strong woman" is misunderstood and usually just leads to standard badass girl with guns stereotype.

And that's where I'm confused. Because it literally means the same thing for men. We humans are very simple about this (in an unfair way). I'd love for us to expand what it means to be strong, but I don't see this one as being a gender issue.

 

[The Horror the horror]

Well, in their defense, creating an interesting/complex character in general is challenging, but for some reason when it's a female character these writers feel compelled to affix some trite and blunt idiosyncrasy in an effort to better distinguish or counterbalance these characters from their male counterparts and their inherited tropes.

 

[Elephant]

[/B]

I get what you're saying but I'm going to strongly disagree with you on this example. I actually thought that Telltale handled the character of Catwoman surprisingly well in a way I really did not expect. If anything I'd say she wasn't in it enough. Here are two articles that mirror my thoughts and go a little bit more into detail on why and how they did a pretty good job with her:

http://www.themarysue.com/we-need-to-talk-about-catwoman/
http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/26/13408866/telltale-batman-catwoman-sex-scene

Interesting reads, but I'm not swayed. In my humble opinion she only exists in this game to be lazy romantic drama for Bruce. The bar brawl leads directly into a kissing option. The fight with Lady Arkham (who WAS an interesting character) leads directly to a sexy time option. The goodbye leads to another kissing option. She could have been much more, but they only had one agenda for her.

 

[Zakalwe]

And that's where I'm confused. Because it literally means the same thing for men. We humans are very simple about this (in an unfair way). I'd love for us to expand what it means to be strong, but I don't see this one as being a gender issue.

It's a gender issue that females are under represented in gaming, and that there are often problems when they are represented.

So calls for better representation /while/ we're calling for more representation is a good thing and will benefit writing in the industry as a whole.

The essay in the OP is part of the focus on the female side of this issue, that it's a focus doesn't deny the existence of issues with male representation.

 

[rataven]

But lightning isn't a good example to use because she is almost universally hated and considered a mary sue amongst most western FF fans.

Similarly, most fans of trails in the sky love Estelle as a character (fucking adore her, her and Laura/Fie from Cold Steel).

Tifa is still my favourite "character" in video games. FF7 might be pretty unsophisticated when it comes to how it tells its story (limitations of being made in the 90s imo) but she was a great character. Beautiful but not cocky about it, strong willed and determined but also had a heart of gold, a great fighter who can take care of herself, but at the same time not to the point where she's Mary Sue'd.

It's interesting that Tifa's popularity has stayed so consistent for 20 plus years, and even seems to be growing. She probably wasn't fully appreciated back in 97, lost amidst the big boob CGI spectacle, but she does stand out as one of the series' best developed and nuanced characters and that seems to be more apparent as the fanbase itself has aged and become more critical. It's awesome to see her get the appreciation she deserves for the right reasons after years of boob nonsense.

 

[Cloukyo]

I would agree with all the above eminently and it's one area where I think the politics-in-games discussion has some resonance. I get the impression a lot of games play the 'strong female character' as a kind of political obligation: "look at us, aren't we great (now buy our game)".

I would much rather a dev who didn't get why female positivity in games is valuable just stick to their male-lead miopia rather than cramming in a 'spunky' female characters. Truth be told, this is why I don't believe in pressuring big publishers to be 'more diverse' - a lot of them treat it like a checkbox exercise. What we really need to do is support more female-lead development teams.

Just my thoughts.

THIS SO MUCH

Instead of getting guys to struggle shoehorning female characters in to tick some box so that people can gush about how "diverse" a game is, it'd be much better for female developers to develop games and come up with characters that feel natural for them.

Skies of Arcadia is one of my favourite games from when I was younger. Female developer, female main character, felt very natural not shoehorned in, not put in for the sake of being a feminist statement either. Just a well written, interesting character.

Bayonetta was also designed by a woman and she's one of my favourite female characters (I love her Bayo 2 design too).

I'm not sure whether less girls are interested in game development, or whether its just a hard to penetrate market for girls. I know most girls I know at work or in my circle of friends don't care for games, so I think the percentage of girls who'd be interested in that line of work would be smaller than men. But if there were only a handful of female developers who could make names for themselves, like the female equivs of Kojima, Nomura, or Kamiya, that'd be incredible.

It's not fictional characters we need to be worrying about. We should take a step back and think about the writers, the developers and the directors. They're the ones who actual determine the quality of the female representation of women.

 

[mckmas8808]

I would agree with all the above eminently and it's one area where I think the politics-in-games discussion has some resonance. I get the impression a lot of games play the 'strong female character' as a kind of political obligation: "look at us, aren't we great (now buy our game)".

I would much rather a dev who didn't get why female positivity in games is valuable just stick to their male-lead miopia rather than cramming in a 'spunky' female characters. Truth be told, this is why I don't believe in pressuring big publishers to be 'more diverse' - a lot of them treat it like a checkbox exercise. What we really need to do is support more female-lead development teams.

Just my thoughts.

This is so disappointing to read. And it's not fair to developers. So basically you are okay with devs making boring "strong" white male characters, but not boring "strong" female characters?

That's not fair. I'd say that's easily worse. So in order to have a woman in a game, she has to be written perfectly?

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

This is so disappointing to read. And it's not fair to developers. So basically you are okay with devs making boring "strong" white male characters, but not boring "strong" female characters?

That's not fair. I'd say that's easily worse. So in order to have a woman in a game, she has to be written perfectly?

I'm saying write and create things that matter to you and it'll come through as genuine - don't just stick something in there because it's hot topic right now. That goes not just for female characters, but pretty much anything: shoe-horning in a crafting system because everyone loves crafting now.

 

[pashmilla]

I'm saying write and create things that matter to you and it'll come through as genuine - don't just stick something in there because it's hot topic right now. That goes not just for female characters, but pretty much anything: shoe-horning in a crafting system because everyone loves crafting now.

Female characters aren't "the hot thing" and comparing representation of half the population of the planet to a crafting system is laughable tbh.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm saying write and create things that matter to you and it'll come through as genuine - don't just stick something in there because it's hot topic right now. That goes not just for female characters, but pretty much anything: shoe-horning in a crafting system because everyone loves crafting now.

That's the thing. How would you ever know that they didn't create the female character because they were being genuine?

 

[Loona]

Nope. My mistake.

My point remains to a degree though? They probably wanted a more unique character design, non-humanoid, which is why they chose the shantoto.

It's understandable to want to use a character with a distinct silhouette in an ensemble cast - it just bothers me that that became the only representation a game with lots of great characters gets to have outside its playerbase. There are interesting stories there that could be referenced when Final Fantasy, its stories and female characters come up, but even SE themselves seem uninterested in making them a part of the conversation.

Lots of stories about dealing with things like duty, hardship and family, to name just a few...

 

[Toxi]

Next let's talk about what we'll call Hestia, named for the Greek goddess of hearth and home: the (usually pure and virginal) woman who is non-combative but who has ”inner strength". Inner strength is an admirable quality to have: determination, resolve, compassion, intelligence, loyalty.... The problem does not lie with Hestia herself; it lies in the way game developers use and abuse her. She's generally trotted out when developers realise they've fucked up on their female characters but don't want to admit it. ”Crap, she's a passive damsel in distress who has to be rescued a bunch then dies for the hero's manpain. Um, uh, well, SHE'S STRONG ON THE INSIDE! Yeah!" Sorry, but inner strength means nothing if we never actually see it.

This is an important observation. Too many times I see female characters described as intelligent, brave, compassionate, etc... Without actually demonstrating any of those traits.

I think it comes from the common fictional idea of women are, men do. Male characters are usually defined through their actions. He's intelligent because he solves a problem using his brain, he's brave because he stands up to injustice, he's compassionate because he helps someone in need.

In contrast, a large number of female characters tend to be defined solely through who they are. This woman is the queen, so she must be a great leader. This woman is a scientist, so she must be smart. This woman is a warrior, so she must be brave. This use of shorthands isn't a bad thing when accompanied by actions to demonstrate the characters' qualities, but many times the shorthands are all that are used.

My rule of thumb for a "strong" character, male or female, is that they shape the plot through their decisions. Their conscious actions that have significant impact are what matter, not just who they are.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'm saying write and create things that matter to you and it'll come through as genuine - don't just stick something in there because it's hot topic right now. That goes not just for female characters, but pretty much anything: shoe-horning in a crafting system because everyone loves crafting now.

Gender equality might be a common focus of conversation, but that's because it's extremely relevant. It's not a "hot topic" in a derogatory way either, we're not making a fuss about this for nothing.

Your post is incredibly dismissive anyway, but equating gender struggles to generic game systems in the way you did is just stupid.

 

[Cloukyo]

Female characters aren't "the hot thing" and comparing representation of half the population of the planet to a crafting system is laughable tbh.

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying women should be written in to games for genuine reasons rather than to pander to people who holler for "strong women" to appear in more games.

He's not saying it's the hot thing in an effort to marginalise it, rather, the way people are treating it like a the new hot thing is the problem. I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. I actually think the crafting analogy works, because shit like crafting is put in there because the higher ups know that it will sell copies and people will buy it, regardless of quality. The same for female representation: "stick a girl in there, who cares if she's well developed, people will like that there's a girl in the game".

I would like more women in games, but not if it's to tick a box. Putting a female character into your work of fiction because you honestly feel like that character is a girl, or you would like the character to be a girl out of your own conviction is how it should be, it shouldn't be done because "it should be done" but rather because the author/developer as an individual their character to be one.

Girls shouldn't be in games because of there being external pressure. It's artificial and shit. Like I said before, you should look at it from an external point of view rather than in the games themselves. Holler about there being more female talent in the games industry, rather than worrying about some cardboard characters in a videogame. Then we might actually organically get female characters in there.

 

[Toxi]

"Shoehorning"

"Pandering"

"The hot thing"

"Checking off boxes"

"External pressure"

What specific games are we actually talking about here? How are we aware of the writers' motives in these examples?

 

[mckmas8808]

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying women should be written in to games for genuine reasons rather than to pander to people who holler for "strong women" to appear in more games.

He's not saying it's the hot thing in an effort to marginalise it, rather, the way people are treating it like a the new hot thing is the problem. I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. I actually think the crafting analogy works, because shit like crafting is put in there because the higher ups know that it will sell copies and people will buy it, regardless of quality. The same for female representation: "stick a girl in there, who cares if she's well developed, people will like that there's a girl in the game".

I would like more women in games, but not if it's to tick a box. Putting a female character into your work of fiction because you honestly feel like that character is a girl, or you would like the character to be a girl out of your own conviction is how it should be, it shouldn't be done because "it should be done" but rather because the author/developer as an individual their character to be one.

Girls shouldn't be in games because of there being external pressure. It's artificial and shit. Like I said before, you should look at it from an external point of view rather than in the games themselves. Holler about there being more female talent in the games industry, rather than worrying about some cardboard characters in a videogame. Then we might actually organically get female characters in there.

How can you tell that devs are putting women in games to get more sales? Is it possible that put a woman in the game and don't know how to develop her because they just aren't good at developing any character?

Tired of men saying women should only be in games if they character is deep and meaningful.

 

[Zakalwe]

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying women should be written in to games for genuine reasons rather than to pander to people who holler for "strong women" too appear in more games.

He's not saying it's the hot thing in an effort to marginalise it, rather, the way people are treating it like a the new hot thing is the problem. I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying.

I think it could go either way actually, without clarification from the writer.

I would like more women in games, but not if it's to tick a box. Putting a female character into your work of fiction because you honestly feel like that character is a girl, or you would like the character to be a girl out of your own conviction is how it should be, it shouldn't be done because "it should be done" but rather because the author/developer as an individual their character to be one.

Girls shouldn't be in games because of there being external pressure. It's artificial and shit. Like I said before, you should look at it from an external point of view rather than in the games themselves. Holler about there being more female talent in the games industry, rather than worrying about some cardboard characters in a videogame. Then we might actually organically get female characters in there.

Obviously no one should be forced to write what they don't want to write about, which is why we need a broader selection of writers so these things naturally occur more often as you said.

Saying that, why does a female character need to held under such scrutiny when plenty of male characters exist "just to tick the box" of appealing to the male demographic?

 

[Cloukyo]

Saying that, why does a female character need to held under such scrutiny when plenty of male characters exist "just to tick the box" of appealing to the male demographic?

It's a problem with male characters too (gotta give this guy muscles, guys like playing as guys with muscles). But I was talking about female characters specifically, I mean, that's what the thread is about.

I have said in my earlier posts that games that have poor writing for women generally have poor writing for men too.

Honestly the only well written game I've played in the last year game was Yakuza 0, I have no faith in the game industry when it comes to good storytelling (this is counting out my replays of Trails in the Sky, Steins Gate 0 and The Zero Escape games, because they're older).

How can you tell that devs are putting women in games to get more sales? Is it possible that put a woman in the game and don't know how to develop her because they just aren't good at developing any character?

Tired of men saying women should only be in games if they character is deep and meaningful.

It's pretty easy to tell, usually if the character could easily have been a guy you can tell that the developer made a conscious choice to make the character a girl despite there being no need for them to be.

I'm not saying girls (or guys) need to be deep and meaningful. Just not cringy.

Like, to be honest, most games I play are fighting games or games with no plot. Sometimes jrpgs and visual novels do a decent job. But in general I can't expect much from writers of AAA writers. Big budget games, movies, music, are largely made with mainstream appeal in mind. You can tell that the honesty is lost when everything starts to become homogeneous. When all the games start to become open world, when all action movies have superheroes who quip every two minutes, when every song has repetitive poppy lyrics with a basic beat in the background.


Also I'm not a guy.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's pretty easy to tell, usually if the character could easily have been a guy you can tell that the developer made a conscious choice to make the character a girl despite there being no need for them to be.

I'm not saying girls (or guys) need to be deep and meaningful. Just not cringy.

Like, to be honest, most games I play are fighting games or games with no plot. Sometimes jrpgs and visual novels do a decent job. But in general I can't expect much from writers of AAA writers. Big budget games, movies, music, are largely made with mainstream appeal in mind. You can tell that the honesty is lost when everything starts to become homogeneous. When all the games start to become open world, when all action movies have superheroes who quip every two minutes, when every song has repetitive poppy lyrics with a basic beat in the background.


Also I'm not a guy.

Good to know you are a lady, but honestly I think it's literally impossible to tell when a dev made a character a woman just to satisfy certain people. If they were written in a lazy way, it could be due to the writers just being bad.

I hear what you are saying and you seem like you mean well, but it's bull crap that men characters can be written badly and don't have to pass a "test" to justify their existence in games.

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

Female characters aren't "the hot thing" and comparing representation of half the population of the planet to a crafting system is laughable tbh.

That's the thing. How would you ever know that they didn't create the female character because they were being genuine?

Gender equality might be a common focus of conversation, but that's because it's extremely relevant. It's not a "hot topic" in a derogatory way either, we're not making a fuss about this for nothing.

Your post is incredibly dismissive anyway, but equating gender struggles to generic game systems in the way you did is just stupid.

Do people even read shit anymore or just make the for moral highround as fast as the fucking can? Oh, it's the latter.

You open your mouth to try and make sincere point and within fifteen minutes you've had so many strawmen stuffed down your throat you'll be coughing chaff for a month.

"Did you just compare female representation to a game mechanic?"

No, read it - sticking things into your game because it seems be something people are demanding is bound to lead to the kind of half-hearted attempts that result in the bad stereotypes eloquently listed in the OP. If you don't understand the value of something you can't do it justice.

Make sense?

And female respresentation in media isn't a 'hot topic'? It's one of the most apparent and important conversations of the last few years. A talking point that recieves coverage in newspapers and social media on a weekly, if not daily basis. Think it's a dismissive term? That's you hearing what you want. I think it is an important conversation and a change we need to see, which is why in my previous post I was arguing - which you'd see if you bothered to fucking read it - we should support female developers as much as we can.

Large publishers are following the buzz, they know what people are demanding, but they might not necessarily understand why they're demanding it, which is why - and here were are again - you end up with dud stereotypes like those mentioned in the OP.

Hence, don't pressure publishers who care about fuck all but the bottom line to makes these changes: if they're doing it, then 9 times out of 10 they're doing it for the wrong reason and if developers are only doing because someone said they should, they'll fall back on the same silly stereotypes.

Hence, as I said, you empower female developers to carve out their own platforms and tell their own stories in their own voices - that way you get the best results and actually redress industry balance by demonstrating a market for the games you want to see produced instead of pressuring someone into doing something they might not realistically see the value in.

Jesus H. Christ.

 

[Cloukyo]

Do people even read shit anymore or just make the for moral highround as fast as the fucking can? Oh, it's the latter.

You open your mouth to try and make sincere point and within fifteen minutes you've had so many strawmen stuffed down your throat you'll be coughing chaff for a month.

"Did you just compare female representation to a game mechanic?"

No, read it - sticking things into your game because it seems be something people are demanding is bound to lead to the kind of half-hearted attempts that result in the bad stereotypes eloquently listed in the OP. If you don't understand the value of something you can't do it justice.

Make sense?

And female respresentation in media isn't a 'hot topic'? It's one of the most apparent and important conversations of the last few years. A talking point that recieves coverage in newspapers and social media on a weekly, if not daily basis. Think it's a dismissive term? That's you hearing what you want. I think it is an important conversation and a change we need to see, which is why in my previous post I was arguing - which you'd see if you bothered to fucking read it - we should support female developers as much as we can.

Large publishers are following the buzz, they know what people are demanding, but they might not necessarily understand why they're demanding it, which is why - and here were are again - you end up with dud stereotypes like those mentioned in the OP.

Hence, don't pressure publishers who care about fuck all but the bottom line to makes these changes: if they're doing it, then 9 times out of 10 they're doing it for the wrong reason and if developers are only doing because someone said they should, they'll fall back on the same silly stereotypes.

Hence, as I said, you empower female developers to carve out their own platforms and tell their own stories in their own voices - that way you get the best results and actually redress industry balance by demonstrating a market for the games you want to see produced instead of pressuring someone into doing something they might not realistically see the value in.

Jesus H. Christ.

This guy gets it.

it's bull crap that men characters can be written badly and don't have to pass a "test" to justify their existence in games.

Not sure what you're saying here. All I'm saying is that I'm treating the issue of badly written women as a separate issue. I'm aware men are badly written too, I'm just not discussing it because its not the topic of discussion in this thread. I'm not giving it a free pass, it's just that it's not what we're talking about right now.

Badly written characters can stem from the broad brush of there being untalented writers, but the shitty way female characters are portrayed is different from the shitty way men are portrayed. Both equally shitty, but not shitty in the same way.

 

[jtb]

"Strongest" female character ever written: Kreia.

Second strongest: Kaelyn the Dove.

 

[Zakalwe]

Make sense?

Jesus H. Christ.

Your initial post could easily be read in a dismissive way, you clarified after which is good, but the initial post could very easily fit what we were suggesting.

Make the second post the first time, next time.

 

[Cloukyo]

"Strongest" female character ever written: Kreia.

Second strongest: Kaelyn the Dove.

But can she punch god in the face, sending her hurtling across the solar system and into the sun?

 

[joms5]

It's nothing short of fascinating to behold the kind of 60's series Batman logic leaps used to deduce tone, just so you could play the tone policing card.

Rather than try to sound intelligent, you could have simply told me what your problem was with my statement. Is "tone policing" the new 15 second of fame word of the day?

Kindly fuck out of here with that condescending shit. There, I gave you something to actually tone police.

Just because you put kindly in front of the word "fuck" doesn't make it any more polite. But i'm happy you're getting some use out of that new phrase you found. Good for you.

When you want to be an adult and reread what I wrote, I am agreeing with OP. But I think it needs to go further than just women. Minorities, LGBT members and YES caucasian males ALL need to be more than a stereotype in their games. And making them "strong" doesn't necessarily make them compelling. And you cannot just look at AAA games to as some sort or barometer for this stuff.

Go take a look at the indie scene or games on the PC. They making fantastic strides in that department, and it will only be a matter of time before it starts to permeate AAA studios as well, which is not to say that some haven't already adopted a more representative take on characters.

The fact that you're telling me to leave for simply saying that yes women need to be written better, and not just as "strong" women, but that all genders and races need a better representation within the medium tells me that you clearly only want it your way.

EDIT: Regarding your "tone policing" link. From wikipedia, the be all and end all of knowledge.

See also
Fallacy
Mansplaining


Ah I see. I was right about the 15 second of fame word. Given all those references are from 2016. Sure looks like it's a "commonly used" tactic in debates... for about a few months I guess.

If you don't want to participate and just tell people to "fuck off" just don't bother posting. It isn't helpful to the conversation.

 

[mckmas8808]

Do people even read shit anymore or just make the for moral highround as fast as the fucking can? Oh, it's the latter.

You open your mouth to try and make sincere point and within fifteen minutes you've had so many strawmen stuffed down your throat you'll be coughing chaff for a month.

"Did you just compare female representation to a game mechanic?"

No, read it - sticking things into your game because it seems be something people are demanding is bound to lead to the kind of half-hearted attempts that result in the bad stereotypes eloquently listed in the OP. If you don't understand the value of something you can't do it justice.

Make sense?

And female respresentation in media isn't a 'hot topic'? It's one of the most apparent and important conversations of the last few years. A talking point that recieves coverage in newspapers and social media on a weekly, if not daily basis. Think it's a dismissive term? That's you hearing what you want. I think it is an important conversation and a change we need to see, which is why in my previous post I was arguing - which you'd see if you bothered to fucking read it - we should support female developers as much as we can.

Large publishers are following the buzz, they know what people are demanding, but they might not necessarily understand why they're demanding it, which is why - and here were are again - you end up with dud stereotypes like those mentioned in the OP.

Hence, don't pressure publishers who care about fuck all but the bottom line to makes these changes: if they're doing it, then 9 times out of 10 they're doing it for the wrong reason and if developers are only doing because someone said they should, they'll fall back on the same silly stereotypes.

Hence, as I said, you empower female developers to carve out their own platforms and tell their own stories in their own voices - that way you get the best results and actually redress industry balance by demonstrating a market for the games you want to see produced instead of pressuring someone into doing something they might not realistically see the value in.

Jesus H. Christ.

It's just stupid to tell people to not "pressure" (and who is really pressuring them?) publishers to make these changes. If women or people of color would love to see themselves depicted in games then I'm all for speaking up and saying it to publishers.

I don't mind that they get it wrong from time to time and we can speak about that too. But tell me that we need to shut up and lets publishers do whatever they want. We can demand diversity. It's on them to find when and how to do it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

But can she punch god in the face, sending her hurtling across the solar system and into the sun?

She needed help to do that, though 🤓

 

[LordKasual]

Don't bother with LordKasual, he once told me that FFXV couldn't be sexist because of that frog quest lady being black or something.

...I want you to know that I sat here for like 30 seconds wondering what would cause a random poster to type that.

Then I just realized you changed your avatar and it finally made sense.

You seem to have something personal against me lol. And you are exceptionally good at putting stupid words in my mouth.

[citation needed]

Noctis went after Luna because he had nowhere else to go. Point me in the direction of any piece of dialogue that indicates that he wanted to see her more than anything else. I've played the game twice and never got the impression that you're pushing.

Spoiler

"All i wanted was to save you"

-- Noctis, Final Fantasy XV.

Spoiler

I recall a loading screen that touched on the same thing...and a bunch of other stuff too, but you know i'm not going to bother myself with it. As we've already touched on, you've missed alot of things and I really don't think a wall of text explaining it will change your opinion.

I've been playing Final Fantasy and JRPGs in general since the 90s, but nice try I guess. I've never seen a mainline FF botch its storytelling like this. Literally never.

i'm sorry

 

[Weltall Zero]

The fact that you're telling me to leave for simply saying that yes women need to be written better,

Let me stop your lies right there because I very clearly told you to cut the made up condescending bullshit. You literally told someone that they had , and I quote, "resentment issues" because they said, quote again, "write women the same way you write straight white dudes". I mean, what the flying fuck? But, well, color me surprised at you making stuff up to counter my criticism of you making stuff up. :

EDIT: Regarding your "tone policing" link. From wikipedia, the be all and end all of knowledge.

See also
Fallacy
Mansplaining


Ah I see. I was right about the 15 second of fame word. Given all those references are from 2016. Sure looks like it's a "commonly used" tactic in debates... for about a few months I guess.

Shaking my head in disbelief at not knowing what tone policing is or why it's frowned upon in the context of social issues, being actually proud of your ignorance, disregarding the term because you think it's new (spolier: it's not), then proceeding to tone police for several paragraphs. Here's an article on tone policing from 2010, not sure if this is still not beyond your ridiculous arbitrary vintageness threshold, but if you really think that because it wasn't called that, tone policing has not been a mainstream tactic for shutting down social progress for decades if not centuries, then it's pretty obvious you have very little perspective, knowledge or interest in social issues at all.

Also did you just suggest that "fallacy" is a buzzword invented in 2016?