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[SOLDIER]

Slight tangeant, but I'm really hoping that Horizon: Zero Dawn can tell its narrative without bringing up Aloy's sex, as if being a woman was equal to having Saiyan genes.

I don't mind the Power Fantasy portrayal, because that's virtually every videogame protagonist. I just don't want another Rey from Star Wars, where they aren't outright telling you she's a strong female character, but you can feel the creator's intent through the dialog, camera direction and sweeping music.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Slight tangeant, but I'm really hoping that Horizon: Zero Dawn can tell its narrative without bringing up Aloy's sex, as if being a woman was equal to having Saiyan genes.

Well she lives in a matriarchal tribe. Her sex seems somewhat integral to the world she lives in

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Now whether a character is good or bad can be subjective. Some people like more bland characters like her whereas I can see Rafe getting on people's nerves. My point is she isn't nearly as well characterized.

Eh, you haven't made a good case for why you think that though. Like, that's fine if you felt that she wasn't as well characterized, but in order for you to convince other people of this you need to provide examples that support your assertion, and you really haven't done that. Your argument is basically 'Rafe is better' but your evidence of that is 'I liked Rafe better'.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Now whether a character is good or bad can be subjective. Some people like more bland characters like her whereas I can see Rafe getting on people's nerves. My point is she isn't nearly as well characterized.

Double post, sorry

 

[Ahasverus]

Hell yeah, I was reading this thread to see if she is brought up or if I need to. She is indeed very strong, since sorceresses in Witcher universe are. But she is still very flawed and many like me, can find her personality to be quite unpleasant. Love her as a character though. She didn't feel at all that she was written to please me as male playing the game, even when she is a romance option and indeed has deep history with the character I'm playing as. She was complex and felt more like a person than just a fantasy. She wasn't afraid to be cruel or fuck people over, even good people, to achieve what she needed. Even though she is one of the good guys.

Her face when the necromancy thing happened sold me on her as a character. She's still unsufferable, but she's not a blank state.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To go into a little more detail, stop trying to write "female characters" and just write characters. Write them the same way you write men. The problem is that too many writers start their characters under an assumed gender (male), so their characters all come from the seed of their actual role. They all start as a hard-boiled detective, or a down-and-out-rocker, or a penniless college student, or an office worker who hates their boss. Then that's the character the writer writes.

Often, male writers don't start a female character from this angle. They start with "girl," or they write a women who specifically relates to a male character they've already written, like "female love interest". Then they are unable to describe them or envision them without relating specifically to their gender.

This is 100% spot-on.

A really good practice I recommend all the time is to take a male character you've written and just make them female. Congratulations, you've just written a strong female character. Sometimes people put of a fuss and say "but this character can't be female" or "but this character doesn't work if they're a woman", but usually cannot explain why. This is good. The sooner they realize there's usually no reason for a male character to not be female, the sooner they stop limiting the kinds of roles their female characters can have.

For a game that does this exceptionally well, play Dishonored 2. Characters you would typically expect to be male are female. They're heavily tattooed street urchins, they're gruff and dour steamboat captains, they're wary old shopkeepers, they're neurotic doctors obsessed with their research, they're two burglars plotting a jewel heist, they're corrupt guards giving civilians a shake-down. The game is an amazing game about women. It accomplishes this by casting women in roles normally defaulted to men. Simply inverting genders in places you normally would not is sometimes an all-too-easy fix for your "I can't write women" woes.

Aye, reminds me of this word of wisdom by Geena Davis about female characters in movies/TV:

]Step 1: Go through the projects you're already working on and change a bunch of the characters' first names to women's names. With one stroke you've created some colorful unstereotypical female characters that might turn out to be even more interesting now that they've had a gender switch. [/B]What if the plumber or pilot or construction foreman is a woman? What if the taxi driver or the scheming politician is a woman? What if both police officers that arrive on the scene are women — and it's not a big deal?

Step 2: When describing a crowd scene, write in the script, "A crowd gathers, which is half female." That may seem weird, but I promise you, somehow or other on the set that day the crowd will turn out to be 17 percent female otherwise. Maybe first ADs think women don't gather, I don't know.

And there you have it. You have just quickly and easily boosted the female presence in your project without changing a line of dialogue.

Yes, we can and will work to tell more women's stories, listen to more women's voices and write richer female characters and to fix the 5-to-1 ratio of men/women behind the camera. But consider this: In all of the sectors of society that still have a huge gender disparity, how long will it take to correct that? You can't snap your fingers and suddenly half of Congress is women. But there's one category where the underrepresentation of women can be fixed tomorrow: onscreen. In the time it takes to make a movie or create a television show, we can change what the future looks like.

Simple, yet brilliant, and I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work unless in very specific historical settings (e.g. a feodal Japan movie about samurai warriors).

I will never forgive her treatment of Jon though, now those feelings are complex. I don't like her but she's so well rounded.

I like her. I think her poor treatment of Jon is not only exaggerated (she was cold and distant to him his own life, but she wasn't abusive to him beyond that one "it should have been you" incident that she blurted out when she was mad with grief, and considering the circumstances of the world of Westeros, she didn't owe him much more than that) by the fandom, it actually makes her a far more interesting character than if she hadn't said that line.

I'm glad I'm not a writer because at this point I would not have any idea how to write a female character without offending someone. Too strong, too meek, too in the middle? How is any one supposed to create anything when now matter what you do, you're wrong.

Or... you know.... I'd love to read stuff like that as a writer, because it's good, constructive feedback that can make me improve my craft.

Good thing most writers aren't fragile like you.

Slight tangeant, but I'm really hoping that Horizon: Zero Dawn can tell its narrative without bringing up Aloy's sex, as if being a woman was equal to having Saiyan genes.

I don't mind the Power Fantasy portrayal, because that's virtually every videogame protagonist. I just don't want another Rey from Star Wars, where they aren't outright telling you she's a strong female character, but you can feel the creator's intent through the dialog, camera direction and sweeping music.

Rey is a little cheesy, but compared to male power fantasies, female power fantasies are few and far between, so at this point I don't mind much.

 

[Taruranto]

Final Fantasy females are neither strong or good. They're made to be pretty. Personality and character arcs aren't even of secondary importance to them. The same can be said for most male FF protagonists but not all.

Yeah, that's bollocks. Maybe Rinoa, FFX-2 Rikku, Minfilla and Rosa and that damn Arciela (But these are also shit characters), but the majority of the women in FF actually drive the plot and generally tend to get their shit together.

 

[Eumi]

Spot on. I hate how most of the conversation (usually from men) on how to make female characters better seems to revolve around limiting what they can be. It always focuses on what a woman can't be rather than what they can be.

 

[Ahasverus]

To go into a little more detail, stop trying to write "female characters" and just write characters. Write them the same way you write men. The problem is that too many writers start their characters under an assumed gender (male), so their characters all come from the seed of their actual role..

I don't agree with this, as it undermines that there are a set of feminine qualities, which do exist and should be celebrated and used.

Let's have an example in Tress Merigold in TW3. There's a part of the game when she must attend a costume party and invites Gerald, she really enjoys teasing him, telling him to use elegant clothes and act "like a gentleman". She gets drunk at the party, and starts acting flirty to Gerald, which culminates in a kiss (well, if you choose to). When she sobers up she apologizes and says she shouldn't have done that, to which Gerald says she doesn't have to. She parts ways with him with bittersweetness on her eyes.

There are clearly feminine archetypes going on there, she's the "romantic", she's "flirty" and she's "thoughtful about physical contact", but that doesn't maen she's not a goddamned badass witch that doesn't think twice to kill every man on her path. She's sweet yet strong (Which is a contrast to Yeneffer, who is rough but soft on the inside).

If a writer just writes a man and then swaps his gender to create an "stronger charcter", he would miss some sensibilites that make for a real, strong female character. Otherwise you end up with the "badass woman" archetype, as there are very few instances of a male character being written well, let alone with actual heart or sensibilities.

 

[MoonFrog]

Well, seems relevant, so I'll repost. Obviously I think "strong" woman is a terrible trope, that, while a form of popular feminism, actually serves to homogenize and put into a box female characters.

From the OP's FFXV and women thread:

-Female characters do not need to be strong. This idea that all female characters should be role models of some sort that we should be able to look up to is an idea that is damaging to female representation. Being human doesn't mean being strong and male characters have the advantage of being able to be all sorts of disgusting without being labeled as sexist representations that should be excised from fiction. Female characters should be given the room to breathe, to be completely wrong, weak, to not 'rise above what society would have them be, etc.' The issue is when female characters are presented as intrinsically not human in the ways men are.

Re: The Lightning discussion above: I don't know the details, I avoided FFXIII from the feedback it received, but the idea that a character giving up and throwing a tantrum makes her a bad character because she is a woman is stupid. Male characters do that in anime/JRPG all the time and need their strength from their friends to pick themselves back up. She might be a badly written, annoying character but female characters should be allowed moments of weakness and we should be allowed to see them as such without shouting 'this is sexist. No woman is weak like that! Fuck this drivel!' or recasting it as truly a moment of strength.

Female characters get put into this box because we are all on edge about what they are saying (not without good reason) and this harms character drama surrounding female characters. A female character runs the very real risk of having her character totally ignored in favor of seeing her as an avatar of all women. Suddenly, it all needs to be girl powah or it is sexist trash.

And I'm open to a female character being made weak being because she is female and there being a lack of humanity in her character. I just don't think that the kneejerk reaction that all weakness in female characters is sexist is a healthy reaction or good for bringing the level of female characters to that of male characters in mainstream fiction.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah, I think framing good female character writing as "female character must be super badass" has caused a lot of problems, because A) it causes a lot of writers to fall into the mindset of "if she can't beat up the bad guys, she isn't any good" and B) audiences and the press have bought into it in a lot of cases, so when a female character doesn't show those attributes, they might might shit on the writers for that, even though the whole point of the character is that they're not a fighter.

Here's a great example of strong character writing for a girl. It's from Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans. There's this girl named Atra, who's a cook for a mercenary company and used to be a maid in a brothel. Her dream for the future is to be a house wife and marry a dude who pilots a giant robot and only wants to be a farmer if he has to stop piloting the robot. During combat, she mostly hangs out on a ship or at their base, sometimes handing out food and doing first aid stuff if things are really bad. Nothing special, right? But during one arc in season 1, she deliberately lets herself get captured (and eventually beaten by grown men) so her friend, a super important VIP who's being targeted by a super corrupt organization, can get away, and in the final arc, she drives an APC through a battlefield to get to a political meeting because so many of the guys are dead, injured, or fighting, and the only reason she fails is because a giant robot almost lands on top of them.

If this character was created for a non-RPG game, I don't know if people/critics would care or if they'd just say nothing but "why couldn't she be the protagonist and be blowing shit up," when that's not the point of the character at all.

Wouldn't or didn't that get criticised for damsel in distress trope?

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

It's a red flag for me when writers talk up their own "strong female characters." The portrayal should speak for itself workout the creator needing to explain why something is not sexist.

 

[jdstorm]

Step 1. Play Xenoblade Chronicles X
Step 2. Actually do the sidequests/affinity missions
Step 3. Marvel at how the best written game of the decade got shafted as sexist due to controversy over optional clothing and boob sliders

 

[Shifty1897]

Kat and Aloy make me think things might be getting better when it comes to video game writing in 2017.

 

[4Tran]

Aye, reminds me of this word of wisdom by Geena Davis about female characters in movies/TV:

Simple, yet brilliant, and I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work unless in very specific historical settings (e.g. a feodal Japan movie about samurai warriors).

Yup. But as it turns out, the vast majority of incidental characters that the protagonist will run across (pizza delivery, plumber, mechanic, etc.) are going to be male, usually white men. There's no reason for that to be so, but it's sort of ingrained in Hollywood, and video games have been following suit.

I don't agree with this, as it undermines that there are a set of feminine qualities, which do exist and should be celebrated and used.

Let's have an example in Tress Merigold in TW3. There's a part of the game when she must attend a costume party and invites Gerald, she really enjoys teasing him, telling him to use elegant clothes and act "like a gentleman". She gets drunk at the party, and starts acting flirty to Gerald, which culminates in a kiss (well, if you choose to). When she sobers up she apologizes and says she shouldn't have done that, to which Gerald says she doesn't have to. She parts ways with him with bittersweetness on her eyes.

There are clearly feminine archetypes going on there, she's the "romantic", she's "flirty" and she's "thoughtful about physical contact", but that doesn't maen she's not a goddamned badass witch that doesn't think twice to kill every man on her path. She's sweet yet strong (Which is a contrast to Yeneffer, who is rough but soft on the inside).

If a writer just writes a man and then swaps his gender to create an "stronger charcter", he would miss some sensibilites that make for a real, strong female character. Otherwise you end up with the "badass woman" archetype, as there are very few instances of a male character being written well, let alone with actual heart or sensibilities.

The idea is that a character should be designed as a "character" first and not as a "gender" first. You can add all sorts of character touches, including gendered ones, later but it doesn't have to be the focal point of the way a character is constructed.

 

[pashmilla]

Kat and Aloy make me think things might be getting better when it comes to video game writing in 2017.

I really, really want Horizon to be stupidly successful as a giant middle finger to all the MRA babies who can't handle a female protagonist actually selling well and being critically acclaimed (see: Fury Road, Star Wars). Also because maybe then we'll get even more female protagonists in AAA games.

 

[Gestault]

Slight tangeant, but I'm really hoping that Horizon: Zero Dawn can tell its narrative without bringing up Aloy's sex, as if being a woman was equal to having Saiyan genes.

I don't mind the Power Fantasy portrayal, because that's virtually every videogame protagonist. I just don't want another Rey from Star Wars, where they aren't outright telling you she's a strong female character, but you can feel the creator's intent through the dialog, camera direction and sweeping music.

I know there's nuance to what you're saying, but what you wrote comes across as discomfort with female characters who are recognized as female and are postured as influential on the fiction/setting around them.

Even though there's a jaded application of "strong female lead," there's a point where aversion to that encroaches on a valid range of female characters.

 

[jdstorm]

I really, really want Horizon to be stupidly successful as a giant middle finger to all the MRA babies who can't handle a female protagonist actually selling well and being critically acclaimed (see: Fury Road, Star Wars). Also because maybe then we'll get even more female protagonists in AAA games.

The Force Awakens is the most sexist star wars film in existence. But sure lets pretend like it wasnt more sexist then films from the 1970s because Rey was the primary character on the marketing

 

[FrontalMonk]

Also if your gonna have your female characters be LGBTQ or very into pro-women's rights activist do heavy research into that field before writing anything, especially if your a guy

This feels like one of those things that feel so obvious but happen so rarely. Like, if you're a writer, and you're serious about your craft, you have to be able to take criticism and let it help inform your work so you can improve your craft. Why would you not take your work regarding someone from a community that you are not and having them read it and tell you if it sounds like them? The fact is that the majority of the time, those people would probably say 1) no, this doesn't sound like us, and 2) this is how you can get it to sound more like us, resulting in a more authentic voice that the writer can then use to make the work better.

 

[pashmilla]

The Force Awakens is the most sexist star wars film in existence. But sure lets pretend like it wasnt more sexist then films from the 1970s because Rey was the primary character on the marketing

Sigh... okay, I'll bite. Please, explain why TFA is somehow more sexist than Revenge of the Sith in which Padme literally spends the whole movie barefoot and pregnant then dies at the end.

 

[Oresama]

Awesome post!

All I ask is for diversity. Challenge my perceptions of what a particular character "should" be like to the point that I eventually become excepting of them being "anything", a tabula rasa void of preconceptions.

They've done this to an extent with white-male roles, and trust me it has less to do with the characters white skin than it does the creators comfort level in portraying them as they see fit vs say a black-male.

Maybe create an interesting character, and then assign labels (race,gender,beliefs,morals, upbringing,sex orientation, etc) last?

 

[the black pearl]

I thought Trip (from Enslaved) was pretty good character without being strong. She's doesnt really even belong to that archetype. (She's savvy but she's not a fighter)

There can be a charm to simplistic characters, though. It's awkward to lionize them, but I feel like its awkward to condemn them (I can't tell if thats happening here though)

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I don't agree with this, as it undermines that there are a set of feminie qualities, which do exist and should be celebrated and used.

Let's have an example in Tress Merigold in TW3. There's a part of the game when she must attend a costume party and invites Gerald, she really enjoys teasing him, telling him to use elegant clothes and act "like a gentleman". She gets drunk at the party, and starts acting flirty to Gerald, which culminates in a kiss (well, if you choose to). When she sobers up she apologizes and says she shouldn't have done that, to which Gerald says she doesn't have to. She parts ways with him with bittersweetness on her eyes.

There are clearly feminine archetypes going on there, she's the "romantic", she's "flirty" and she's "thoughtful about physical contact", but that doesn't maen she's not a goddamned badass witch that doesn't think twice to kill every man on her path. She's sweet yet strong (Which is a contrast to Yeneffer, who is rough but soft on the inside).

If a writer just writes a man and then swaps his gender to create an "stronger charcter", he would miss some sensibilites that make for a real, strong female character. Otherwise you end uop with the "badass woman" archetype, as there are very few instances of a male character being written well, let alone with actual heart or sensibilities.

The thing there, and what a lot of writing - for male and female characters alike - fails to consider, is that behaviour is partially dependent on context. More broadly it's being at a party and all, but in the specific context of the game, it's a party and the first time in a long while where she's been able to relax without worrying that Witch Hunters aren't about to try and kill her. For the vast bulk of players who haven't played the previous games and thus don't know Triss so well, it's a chance to see another side of her that's... just, well, another side of her. It doesn't compromise her abilities or require that some other aspect of her character be altered - another game might require her humbling by a third party - to reveal this more open and fun-loving side, only that she be in the right circumstances to reveal it.

This is one of my main frustrations with alt-costumes in fighting games, because nominally they're a perfect way of integrating this sort of thing into a genre that's otherwise pretty minimal on characterisation. As it is, fighting game character designs often struggle where their default costumes must be all in one archetypes that tell you everything about the character at once, while alts ultimately change nothing about their mannerisms and personality and thus reveal nothing new. Chun-Li in Street Fighter V is most indicative of the potential and how it isn't especially used, I think.

In the base game she has three costumes: Her default, most famous outfit with the blue dress, tights, and hair buns. Then she has a story mode outfit which compromises a police uniform, reflecting the fact that she's actually an office of the law. Lastly there is her pre-order bonus, a more revealing black dress where she lets her hair down. Now thing is, people seemed pretty fond of the latter when it was revealed even though it was a modification of an existing alt from Street Fighter IV, and I think it's because for her - in light of her default costume and the police uniform - it did come across as another side to the character. It's not what Chun-Li deliberately wears to a fight, it's what she wears to a fancy dinner; when she both literally and proverbially lets her hair down. On the other hand, her behaviour between the costumes doesn't change at all, so while it provides a visual indication of some depth to Chun-Li's character, there's little substance beyond that. At least she's lucky enough to have her costumes divided into clearly separate roles - a lot of the women in the franchise, nevermind the wider genre, just have some variant of the same theme while also having a common thread of 'sexy'.

 

[Ahasverus]

The idea is that a character should be designed as a "character" first and not as a "gender" first. You can add all sorts of character touches, including gendered ones, later but it doesn't have to be the focal point of the way a character is constructed.

Hard to do if you're touching gender issues (TW3 touches on menstruation, for example). I'm not saying that non-gendered approach is not valid, but it's not the end of be all for writing good female characters. More like writers should learn to write women being women too.

 

[the black pearl]

Hard to do if you're touching gender issues (TW3 touches on menstruation, for example). I'm not saying that non-gendered approach is not valid, but it's not the end of be all for writing good female characters. More like writers should learn to write women being women too.

Yeah I think you can go either way. You dont have to write every character ever the same way.

 

[Kin5290]

Now whether a character is good or bad can be subjective. Some people like more bland characters like her whereas I can see Rafe getting on people's nerves. My point is she isn't nearly as well characterized.

Nadine was an interesting character to me. She was the only person in the entire series pragmatic enough to cut loose and call it quits instead of committing suicide by Nathan Drake.

 

[Ahasverus]

Yeah I think you can go either way. You dont have to write every character ever the same way.

Exactly, yes.

 

[mojojoeo]

Did ghost recon Wildlands get brought up in here?

One of the create a character female voices is a mom.

Here is this cod/battlefield/machismo war shooter and she's in there doing it all with the other ghosts- and in the flavor chatter where the soldiers cut jokes and talk about the games plot- Shes cracking jokes about her kids and such. CIA/special forces super agent mom.

good or bad- I couldn't think of another example in the genre like that....

 

[pashmilla]

Did ghost recon Wildlands get brought up in here?

One of the create a character female voices is a mom.

Here is this cod/battlefield/machismo war shooter and she's in there doing it all with the other ghosts- and in the flavor chatter where the soldiers cut jokes and talk about the games plot- Shes cracking jokes about her kids and such. CIA/special forces super agent mom.

good or bad- I couldn't think of another example in the genre like that....

That's not my kind of game but that sounds awesome! There's a serious dearth of mother characters in gaming.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Did ghost recon Wildlands get brought up in here?

One of the create a character female voices is a mom.

Here is this cod/battlefield/machismo war shooter and she's in there doing it all with the other ghosts- and in the flavor chatter where the soldiers cut jokes and talk about the games plot- Shes cracking jokes about her kids and such. CIA/special forces super agent mom.

good or bad- I couldn't think of another example in the genre like that....

Wait, what? That's awesome.

...I kinda want to get that game now.

 

[Laiza]

Step 1. Play Xenoblade Chronicles X
Step 2. Actually do the sidequests/affinity missions
Step 3. Marvel at how the best written game of the decade got shafted as sexist due to controversy over optional clothing and boob sliders

They can have different aspects of the game criticized. Just because one part of the game (the writing) is not sexist does not mean other parts of the game (the outfits) are also not sexist. These are two separate-but-related issues, and the latter issue can certainly detract from the former.

 

[jdstorm]

Sigh... okay, I'll bite. Please, explain why TFA is somehow more sexist than Revenge of the Sith in which Padme literally spends the whole movie barefoot and pregnant then dies at the end.

Not trying to get into an arguement. That was never my intention. Lets start with the character of Leia.

Star Wars 4: Shes a Princess a senator and a spy, whos first line is that she is a woman of power and her second line is sass about Darth Vader a man shown in a position of power being smelly. She then orcastrates her own escape from prison after being freed from her cell and ultimately helps plan the misson on the death star

Star Wars 7. Leia spends the whole movie crying about how her husband left her/died and her son is evil while being dismissed and ostracised by the new republic establishment and being demoted in rank from Princess or Queen to General.

Rey while great is also often without agency and her characters expressed feelings are often invalidated by the need to move the plot forward. The movie devolves into a damsel in distress rescue mission, and Rey ultimately decides to learn to use the force (a completely inconsistent 180 turn for her character) after having her mind violated by Klo Ren while physically restrained.

Padme gets shafted by some bad writing in episode 4. Im not going to defend that. However episode 7 is so much worse than that.

 

[Oresama]

Hard to do if you're touching gender issues (TW3 touches on menstruation, for example). I'm not saying that non-gendered approach is not valid, but it's not the end of be all for writing good female characters. More like writers should learn to write women being women too.

I see your point, but are there any writers in here?

As writers, do you create the plot and then characters to pluck into it, or the characters first, or is the process dynamic?

Would love to hear their perspective...

*if someone already touched on this can someone link or quote me their response?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

They can have different aspects of the game criticized. Just because one part of the game (the writing) is not sexist does not mean other parts of the game (the outfits) are also not sexist. These are two separate-but-related issues, and the latter issue can certainly detract from the former.

But the outfits aren't sexist. Both genders have incredibly skimpy outfits, ranging from fully covered to swimsuits to underwear. Sexist implies some bias on the basis of sex. When both genders are treated equally, with regard to outfits, by definition they aren't sexist.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

But the outfits aren't sexist. Both genders have incredibly skimpy outfits, ranging from fully covered to swimsuits to underwear. Sexist implies some bias on the basis of sex. When both genders are treated equally, with regard to outfits, by definition they aren't sexist.

Mind you, the women do gain boob windows in some outfits that men don't, which is more than a little odd. Since that stuff is pretty noticeable in early game armour, it's not hard to see how people would pick up on that before the general array of skimpy outsides across both genders.

 

[TC McQueen]

Wouldn't or didn't that get criticised for damsel in distress trope?

Not as far as I know, because it makes no sense for a 15 year old girl who's never fired a gun before to suddenly bust her and a friend (who was totally out of shape and unarmed) out of an apartment guarded by guys with guns, especially when they were only held there for like 4 hours, tops. That's also literally the only time she's in danger that doesn't also apply to literally everyone else in the mercenary company.

 

[SOLDIER]

I know there's nuance to what you're saying, but what you wrote comes across as discomfort with female characters who are recognized as female and are postured as influential on the fiction/setting around them.

Even though there's a jaded application of "strong female lead," there's a point where aversion to that encroaches on a valid range of female characters.

I'm all about female protagonists (or even the most interesting side characters) being unstoppabale badasses. But there's a way to do it wrong. I don't think Mary Sue is the correct term as it's not as transparent, but there are cases where it feels like the writers are pushing the "strong female character" part a little too hard.

Case in point, Rey suddenly becoming an S-tier Jedi in the span of five minutes, when it previously took Luke three whole movies to get that far.

 

[4Tran]

Hard to do if you're touching gender issues (TW3 touches on menstruation, for example). I'm not saying that non-gendered approach is not valid, but it's not the end of be all for writing good female characters. More like writers should learn to write women being women too.

I'm not going to comment on the Witcher 3 in specific, but most game writing that's gender-first will feel the need to remind everyone that the character in question is a woman in every character aspect. And so everything about her will emphasize feminine qualities, from personality to goals to clothing. It's not necessarily the wrong way to design a character, but it ends up being very limiting.

 

[Laiza]

But the outfits aren't sexist. Both genders have incredibly skimpy outfits, ranging from fully covered to swimsuits to underwear. Sexist implies some bias on the basis of sex. When both genders are treated equally, with regard to outfits, by definition they aren't sexist.

I'm speaking generally here. I haven't played the game, so I have no stake in this particular argument.

However, my experience of Japanese games in general (especially PSO2) tells me to expect the worst in this regard. Don't be surprised if I am entirely skeptical of this claim as well, especially with regards to the equality of treatment (i.e. do male outfits have as many stupid boob windows as female outfits do?).

 

[Kin5290]

Did ghost recon Wildlands get brought up in here?

One of the create a character female voices is a mom.

Here is this cod/battlefield/machismo war shooter and she's in there doing it all with the other ghosts- and in the flavor chatter where the soldiers cut jokes and talk about the games plot- Shes cracking jokes about her kids and such. CIA/special forces super agent mom.

good or bad- I couldn't think of another example in the genre like that....

That's not my kind of game but that sounds awesome! There's a serious dearth of mother characters in gaming.

Wait, what? That's awesome.

...I kinda want to get that game now.

Unfortunately, the writing is pretty abysmal, and outside of a single cutscene that's all that is mentioned of her family status. Also, the female VA is... pretty bad.

From the open beta, characterization (where the game is a nonlinear sandbox) is pretty shallow.

Speaking of female characters and family, it's interesting how the games of a few years ago were about fathers and their relationship with their daughters (like The Last of Us, Dishonored, and B

Spoiler

ioshock Infinite

), while a few recent and upcoming games are about daughters and their fathers (like Dishonored 2, The Last of Us 2, and Horizon: Zero Dawn).

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'm speaking generally here. I haven't played the game, so I have no stake in this particular argument.

However, my experience of Japanese games in general (especially PSO2) tells me to expect the worst in this regard. Don't be surprised if I am entirely skeptical of this claim as well, especially with regards to the equality of treatment (i.e. do male outfits have as many stupid boob windows as female outfits do?).

I think, as JonnyDBrit mentioned, a few outfits have boob windows, but they're a tiny minority out of the hundreds of pieces of armor, which is gender neutral. There aren't really female or male only outfits, only adjustments made based on gender (like a swimsuit being trunks on a male would also have a top on a female). Plus the game makes no pretense about armor designs being functional/practical. They actually allow you to pick "cosmetic armor" which is purely for looks and doesn't affect stats.

But I don't want to digress too much from the topic of the thread

 

[Plywood]

How are neither of you naming Tifa, Celes, Rikku, Rydia or Prishe?

Even the FFXIV example is missing Yugiri, Moenbryda and Merlwyb. Merlwyb!

Is this "name the opposite of the Best Girls" day?

You're free to name whoever you want

Shantotto!

Never played XI outside of a trial :{

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I think, as JonnyDBrit mentioned, a few outfits have boob windows, but they're a tiny minority out of the hundreds of pieces of armor, which is gender neutral. There aren't really female or male only outfits, only adjustments made based on gender (like a swimsuit being trunks on a male would also have a top on a female). Plus the game makes no pretense about armor designs being functional/practical. They actually allow you to pick "cosmetic armor" which is purely for looks and doesn't affect stats.

But I don't want to digress too much from the topic of the thread

This is a fair enough countenance. And again, a lot of the boob window armour is, IIRC, early game stuff that's kinda treated as medium or light armour - so not as developed as it should be. Otherwise character appearances aren't really a point of any discussion by the game itself. Meanwhile the female characters of the game do have pretty prominent roles and characterisations (if partially because the MC is a total blank slate and so everyone else has to carry the weight of the story).

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'm not going to comment on the Witcher 3 in specific, but most game writing that's gender-first will feel the need to remind everyone that the character in question is a woman in every character aspect. And so everything about her will emphasize feminine qualities, from personality to goals to clothing. It's not necessarily the wrong way to design a character, but it ends up being very limiting.

I don't know if you can really make that claim. There's nothing inherently wrong about a gender first approach, or anything that requires it to make gender a forefront of that character. For instance, a writer might just want to make a female main character and go from there. It's a "gender first" approach, but it doesn't mean her gender will be a defining aspect necessarily

This is a fair enough countenance. And again, a lot of the boob window armour is, IIRC, early game stuff that's kinda treated as medium or light armour - so not as developed as it should be. Otherwise character appearances aren't willing a point of any discussion by the game itself. Meanwhile the female characters of the game do have pretty prominent roles and characterisations (if partially because the MC is a total blank slate and so everyone else has to carry the weight of the story).

Elma is one of my favorite JRPG characters in a long time. Super skilled and competent at what she does, without the game needing to "show off" how badass she is. It's evident in the reverence and respect everyone has for her

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Slight tangeant, but I'm really hoping that Horizon: Zero Dawn can tell its narrative without bringing up Aloy's sex, as if being a woman was equal to having Saiyan genes.

I don't mind the Power Fantasy portrayal, because that's virtually every videogame protagonist. I just don't want another Rey from Star Wars, where they aren't outright telling you she's a strong female character, but you can feel the creator's intent through the dialog, camera direction and sweeping music.

You don't want a mary-sue, right? Me either.

I like my female leads to be "cool" as fuck not "strong". You know?

 

[4Tran]

I don't know if you can really make that claim. There's nothing inherently wrong about a gender first approach, or anything that requires it to make gender a forefront of that character. For instance, a writer might just want to make a female main character and go from there. It's a "gender first" approach, but it doesn't mean her gender will be a defining aspect necessarily.

One of the problems is that, by going gender-first, you're a lot more likely to put women only in roles that are specifically for women and preclude them from everything else. That's how Hollywood casting will often end up with no female security officers, or plumbers, and so on.

 

[joms5]

tl;dr: don't write """strong""" women, write women the same way you write straight white dudes, i.e. as people

Discuss!

I would argue that writers need to concentrate on writing "human" characters. I know there is this notion that all male leads in a game are written for their audience, but sometimes I think people are blinded by the fact that the character is male and they completely ignore the fact that it is a poorly written male or stereotype.

Now there's no doubt that this is difficult to do in a medium that emphasizes interactivity and as a result puts less focus on story or narrative. It's hard to humanize a character when the goals of the game may be at odds with that of the story. Look no further than GTA4. Adventure games seem to do this the best, and in my eyes have some of the compelling characters in video games. Both Kate Walker and April Ryan, from Syberia and The Longest Journey respectively, are brilliantly realized and well written protagonists that hold strong convictions while at the same time having vulnerabilities that allow one to relate to them on a human level.

I agree that we need to stop with the "Strong" adjective. It's a vague term that tells us nothing about the character in question. But asking them to "write women the same way you write straight white dudes" shows some sort of underlying resentment to the subject at hand and would end up resulting in more anger about poorly written women in video games.

If you think that men are portrayed any more fairly or realistically in games then I think that says a lot more about you're reality than the one you wish writers to emulate.

 

[Cloukyo]

Anyone who says Final Fantasy girls aren't strong haven't played Final Fantasy. A vast number of them have had women as the central guiding thread of the plot.

Terra in the first half of FF6, Celes in the second
Aeris and Tifa were both great characters
Rinoa was kinda shitty but honestly, pretty realistic for your standard teenage girl, either way the cast was full of girls, you had selphie, quistis, ellone, edea, even the main villain was a woman
FF9 was great, both Fran and Beatrix were great female characters
Yuna was great in FF10

Out of all of them my favourite will always be Tifa anyway, a person who is hardy and doesn't take shit from anyone, but is also vulnerable and has a heart of gold. She has a lot of depth, and the "girl next door" vibe she has is one of the reasons she's been the favourite final fantasy girl for most people since her inception (in before someone says it's because of her boobs. Rydia and Lulu both have bigger breasts and no-one gives a shit)


Anyway I go back to my original point: Videogame characters are rarely well written in general. It's not a problem with female characters. Male characters are usually extremely dumbed down and exist for the sake of projection more than anything else.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

One of the problems is that, by going gender-first, you're a lot more likely to put women only in roles that are specifically for women and preclude them from everything else. That's how Hollywood casting will often end up with no female security officers, or plumbers, and so on.

I'm well aware of the pitfalls it often has, I'm just saying there isn't anything inherently wrong about a gender first approach. Like I'm sure a lot of creatives have ideas for what they want characters to look like even before they flesh out stories or what said characters will do. Sometimes you just want to fit something around an existing idea you have, and that idea might be "a female character who looks like x, or has y personality trait/quirk" and I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with it.

Even if it wasn't gender first, they could still suffer from the same problems when they try adding on "gendered" traits while fleshing out the character

 

[LordKasual]

Okay, a few things here.

1. Apart from the notebook, Noctis interacts with Luna via flashbacks. They never have a back-and-forth conversation in real time about the current events happening in the narrative. Even during the Leviathan fight, he's unconscious or helpless around her. She's not an active presence in Noctis's life, just a passive one, which detaches her from player engagement.

Spoiler

...Luna was THE driving force behind Noctis for pretty much the entire game, so much so that it was used against him. I don't see how anyone could say she isn't an active presence, that makes no sense.

Noctis' desire to see her again was as strong as (if not stronger) than his desire to avenge his father and homeland. But he had no real physical interaction with her outside of his notebook, only memories and love letters. Their only real interactions together were as children, which is why even in the CG death scene the only time adult Noctis gets to see her up close in person is when she's already dead.

His longing to actually interact with her again is pretty much the entire tragedy of their relationship, or at least part of it. And i believe it also highlighted the remaining selfish childishness in Noct's personality that held him back from becoming the chosen king. Losing Luna exposed this trait in full, and the following chapters had the bros addressing that. Which is probably why you didn't care for it until after she died. The game was about Noctis, not Luna.

2. Just because something is deliberate doesn't make it good.

Fair enough. It was good to me though.

3. I didn't care about the events of the game

Spoiler

during the times when Luna was alive

because Noctis didn't care about the events of the game then. You don't really get directly involved with the story until chapter 10. Oh, you want me to go get these tomatoes for you? Sure, good thing there's not a WAR going on. Oh,

Spoiler

the Regalia was stolen?

Well, good thing there's not a WAR going on. We can totally make this our top priority. Oh, Luna's

Spoiler

reviving the Gods one by one?

Because there's a WAR GOING ON? Yeah, I guess we can make time to do that in between chocobo rides and touristing around town with Iris.

...I'm assuming FFXV was your first Final Fantasy game.

Welcome to JRPGs? It's jarring, I know, but you learn to enjoy it after a while.

4. Noctis and Luna's relationship was never explored in a meaningful way

Spoiler

until after she died

, so no, I didn't care about Noctis's alleged feelings for her at the times that she was around.

Well at this point it just sounds like you didn't really care for the events of the game like I suggested.

I don't really know how to respond to "alleged feelings". But again, your stance seems pretty clear already so there's no point diving into it.

Luna was a symptom. The storytelling was the problem. But because Luna so firmly embodies the problem with the overall storytelling, again, it's easy to point to her and go, "Look at that lazy, slipshod afterthought of a character." I'm not going to go back and retroactively care about Luna after the fact, once the story got going. That's not how narrative progression works.

I dunno, it worked just fine for plenty of people bro.

But if you want to point at an example of XV's narrative shortcomings, i feel like Ravus is a much better contender. Luna is a pretty easy character to sympathize with and care for...Ravus not so much. The nuances of his motivations were alot easier to miss than anyone elses.