Summer 2012 Anime |OT| Goddesses, canines, and killer MMOs!

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Guillo said:
Languages and words evolve. We aren't talking about Shakespeare here, it's a term invented by the Internet originally used to describe self-insert female character in fanfiction. It's been a while since the Internet has started to use Mary Sue to describe also overly-perfect, wish-fulfillment female characters. You can either accept this change or start bickering every time with 85.74% of the Internet about this change.
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Erm, but that's exactly what the term means. It is a "self-insert" as a wish fulfillment. The male version of a Mary Sue is a Gary Stu. Chitanda doesn't remotely apply to this description because she is a character with annoying traits and is always placed in poor social scenarios. She might be otaku-bait, but that isn't remotely close to being a Mary Sue. No one -wants- to be Chitanda.
 
Language is always evolving is always a terrible argument. People don't bother to look things up themselves so in the end they only learn half the facts from hearsay and are oblivious to it until someone corrects them. Unfortunately they themselves spread false facts and thus others end up being in the wrong. See also the words Weeaboo and meme.
 
duckroll said:
Erm, but that's exactly what the term means. It is a "self-insert" as a wish fulfillment. The male version of a Mary Sue is a Gary Stu. Chitanda doesn't remotely apply to this description because she is a character with annoying traits and is always placed in poor social scenarios. She might be otaku-bait, but that isn't remotely close to being a Mary Sue. No one -wants- to be Chitanda.
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She's wish-fulfillment for Otaku. How many people call her "perfect" and go around screaming "mai waifu"?

She's beautiful, comes from a rich family, has purple eyes with an universe inside it, has an incredible memory and high grades but she's too stupid to guess who locked her into a room and need the MC to solve every mystery. Oh, but she's not stupid, she's just CURIOUS! She's also overly optimistic, can't seem to get angry and pretty much scream "Moe" in every of her actions.

I have no problem admitting that no female wants to be her, but based on the wide usage that people have applied to term "Mary Sue" she's definitely one.

BGBW said:
Language is always evolving is always a terrible argument. People don't bother to look things up themselves so in the end they only learn half the facts from hearsay and are oblivious to it until someone corrects them. Unfortunately they themselves spread false facts and thus others end up being in the wrong. See also the words Weeaboo and meme.
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But that's what happens. There are tons of words that changed meaning over time. What will you do, get angry every time because we don't speak like we are in 1900?
 
What's vitally important for any Mary Sue is that they are considered perfect in the story. The audience isn't relevant.

Most people hated Wesley Crusher.
 
You find it surprising that someone who calls someone else their wife is going to find them perfect?

That has nothing to do with whether or not the character actually is perfect or not.
 
Guillo said:
She's wish-fulfillment for Otaku. How many people call her "perfect" and go around screaming "mai waifu"?

She's beautiful, comes from a rich family, has purple eyes with an universe inside it, has an incredible memory and high grades but she's too stupid to guess who locked her into a room and need the MC to solve every mystery. Oh, but she's not stupid, she's just CURIOUS! She's also overly optimistic, can't seem to get angry and pretty much scream "Moe" in every of her actions.

I have no problem admitting that no female wants to be her, but based on the wide usage that people have applied to term "Mary Sue" she's definitely one.
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You're wrong and you keep writing yourself into a pit. Mary Sues and Gary Stus are idealized wish-fulfillment characters for that respective gender. If no one wants to be that character in that scenario, it is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. "Mai Waifu" is NOT a Mary Sue. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
 
Guillo said:
But that's what happens. There are tons of words that changed meaning over time. What will you do, get angry every time because we don't speak like we are in 1900?
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Except we're not talking about words from the 1900s. We're talking about words from recent times whose original (and correct) definition is still used.
 
duckroll said:
You're wrong and you keep writing yourself into a pit. Mary Sues and Gary Stus are idealized wish-fulfillment characters for that respective gender. If no one wants to be that character in that scenario, it is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu "Mai Waifu" is NOT a Mary Sue. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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Did you actually read what i wrote? I wasn't trying to prove that "mai waifu" is a mary sue, i was simply stating that she's an obvious wish-fulfillment for males otaku.

Mary Sues and Gary Stus are idealized wish-fulfillment characters for that respective gender.
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Yes, based on the original usage.

If no one wants to be that character in that scenario, it is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu "Mai Waifu" is NOT a Mary Sue.
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Again. The Internet pretty much adopted a wider usage of the term Mary Sue. The term evolved and its used in a more a wider context. Just google "Chitanda" and "Mary sue". Is it wrong based on the original meaning of "mary sue"? Yes. And? The term was coined years ago and it has changed meaning over time.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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Ah, i wish i could debate or par with you. Unfortunately, i'm Junior and you are mod and i'm afraid i'm going to get banned. :P
 
Guillo said:
Again. The Internet pretty much adopted a wider usage of the term Mary Sue. The term evolved and its used in a more a wider context. Just google "Chitanda" and "Mary sue". Is it wrong based on the original meaning of "mary sue"? Yes. And? The term was coined years ago and it has changed meaning over time.
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If by the internet you mean TVTropes goblins, maybe.
 
cajunator said:
Chitanda is adorable and curious about everything. She is the puppy dog of animu.
I cannot fathom people hating her.
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*quotes from DBZ Abridged*

Frieza: ... I'm going to drown you. I'm going to drown you like a sack of blind puppies!

Goku: !! W-Why would you drown puppies?!

Frieza: Because they're cute and cuddly!

Goku: A.. are you coming on to me?
 
Guillo said:
Yes, based on the original usage.
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That is also the CORRECT usage.

Again. The Internet pretty much adopted a wider usage of the term Mary Sue. The term evolved and its used in a more a wider context. Just google "Chitanda" and "Mary sue". Is it wrong based on the original meaning of "mary sue"? Yes. And? The term was coined years ago and it has changed meaning over time.
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No, the meaning has not changed over time. Have many people misused the term over time? Yes. That doesn't mean the meaning changed. "The Internet" is not an entity in itself. It is made up of people. There is no consensus. It is not a language body. Just because people misuse a term does not mean the meaning changed, it means those people misusing it are using it wrongly.

Another popular term which gets misused a lot is "deus ex machina". If you were to try to argue that the term "has evolved to refer to any sort of bad plot twist" just because "the Internet has pretty much adopted a wider usage" you would get laughed out of any language discussion.

Trying to defend this position is no different from being told to stop talking in class and going "but those other people at the back are talking too!" because it is not a defense. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three wrongs don't make a right. Ten wrongs don't make a right.

There is a proper meaning for terms, please use them accordingly or people will tell you that you are wrong. That's what happens.

Ah, i wish i could debate or par with you. Unfortunately, i'm Junior and you are mod and i'm afraid i'm going to get banned. :P
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Using the junior/mod defense to try and bail out of an argument you're losing in is bad form. It shows that you have no confidence in your own position in the first place, and you're trying to back away without looking like you lost. Unfortunately for you, we don't do that around here, so it's going to continue until you either have a decent argument, or you admit you were wrong.

#EnglishIsSeriousBusiness
 
So is this like how "bad" and "sick" are positive terms these days, with a term like Mary Sue taken to mean its opposite at the same time as its usual meaning?
 
I'm not sure how Chitanda is supposed to be a perfect insert character anyway, seeing as she's got plenty of flaws (curious to a fault, easily distracted, overbearing and more than a little nosy). Sure she can cook and stuff, but so can Fukube. So there! :-P

I was going to offer a counter argument to the "words don't change" argument with how the meaning of tsundere has changed since it's original inception, but then I bopped myself on the head and reminded myself that tsundere isn't a real word.
 
duckroll said:
Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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Guillo said:
Ah, i wish i could debate or par with you. Unfortunately, i'm Junior and you are mod and i'm afraid i'm going to get banned. :P
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I don't think they would ban you for arguing with genuine facts. And the 1st quote.

Guillo said:
Yes, based on the original usage.
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Based on the right usage, not your personal or/and wrong one.

She's a nice girl, by far not perfect and therefore not a Mary Sue.
 
RurouniZel said:
I'm not sure how Chitanda is supposed to be a perfect insert character anyway, seeing as she's got plenty of flaws (curious to a fault, easily distracted, overbearing and more than a little nosy). Sure she can cook and stuff, but so can Fukube. So there! :-P

I was going to offer a counter argument to the "words don't change" argument with how the meaning of tsundere has changed since it's original inception, but then I bopped myself on the head and reminded myself that tsundere isn't a real word.
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She's like me. Except female. And cute. And 2D.
 
Or they are using it ironically because that's what all the hip people do.

Or like me, name dropping the level names from Special World.
 
Polar Bear Cafe 17
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polarbear17c.jpg
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Y'know, I was kinda expecting a segment called "Rin Rin and the High School Girl" to be very different from what we got but fortunately this show never ceases to surprise and impress.

polarbear17.gif
 
OceanBlue said:
In my opinion, After Story really picks up in the second half. I don't know if you'll cry or not (I did, but it's really easy to make me cry), but I think you'll really enjoy it.
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We'll see, the story is so interesting and unique. I'm glad
the show was not centered around school life the whole time.
 
duckroll said:
No, the meaning has not changed over time. Have many people misused the term over time? Yes. That doesn't mean the meaning changed. "The Internet" is not an entity in itself. It is made up of people.
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And who decided it? You? There have been countless discussions over the Internet about what the term "mary sue" and how it evolved. Google "Mary sue" and "Evolution", or something.

There is no consensus. It is not a language body. Just because people misuse a term does not mean the meaning changed, it means those people misusing it are using it wrongly.
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But apparently, there is. You just said yourself that the term Mary Sue can only mean one thing. Either you are god, or someone made a poll and decided it can only mean one thing, completely ignoring the fact that it acquired a pretty much broader usage over the years. Was originally this usage wrong? Yes. But it has been used over and over and for so much time that it pretty much acquired an additional meaning.

There is a proper meaning for terms, please use them accordingly or people will tell you that you are wrong. That's what happens.
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I shall from now on, only speak like a dictionary, ignoring the common sense and language evolution.

"I'm gay" "But you look sad".
"You are such an Hipster" "But i don't like Jazz"

Or the word Tsundere. Do you argue with everyone who uses that term "wrong" or have you simply accepted that the word evolved and its used in more broad ways?

Trying to defend this position is no different from being told to stop talking in class and going "but those other people at the back are talking too!" because it is not a defense. Two wrongs don't make a right. Three wrongs don't make a right. Ten wrongs don't make a right.
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To be fair, the teacher could ask the whole class to shout up, and not only you. Fucking teacher. Maybe she hates you, i dunno.

Also, Two wrongs make a right. In Ancient Rome! See, things evolve through time!

Using the junior/mod defense to try and bail out of an argument you're losing in is bad form. It shows that you have no confidence in your own position in the first place, and you're trying to back away without looking like you lost. Unfortunately for you, we don't do that around here, so it's going to continue until you either have a decent argument, or you admit you were wrong.

#EnglishIsSeriousBusiness
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I'm not trying to bail out. But i've been lurking her for a long time and i know about your past arguments. (You once banned a dude because he called some DS game graphic bad) So i'm sorry if i'm a tad afraid to answer your posts until i got past 300 messages.
 
Guillo, you're being pretty obnoxious and dumb. Please look these words up in a dictionary to avoid any potential misinterpretation of how I might actually feel.
 
Guillo said:
And who decided it? You? There have been countless discussions over the Internet about what the term "mary sue" and how it evolved. Google "Mary sue" and "Evolution", or something.



But apparently, there is. You just said yourself that the term Mary Sue can only mean one thing. Either you are god, or someone made a poll and decided it can only mean one thing, completely ignoring the fact that it acquired a pretty much broader usage over the years. Was originally this usage wrong? Yes. But it has been used over and over and for so much time that it pretty much acquired an additional meaning.



I shall from now on, only speak like a dictionary, ignoring the common sense and language evolution.

"I'm gay" "But you look sad".
"You are such an Hipster" "But i don't like Jazz"

Or the world Tsundere. Do you argue with everyone who uses that term "wrong" or have you simply accepted that the world evolved and its used in more broad ways?



To be fair, the teacher could ask the whole class to shout up, and not only you. Fucking teacher. Maybe she hates you, i dunno.

Also, Two wrongs make a right. In Ancient Rome! See, things evolve through time!



I'm not trying to bail out. But i've been lurking her for a long time and i know about your past arguments. (You once banned a dude because he called some DS game graphic bad) So i'm sorry if i'm a tad afraid to answer your posts until i got past 300 messages.
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Don't be afraid to argue with mods. As long as you aren't being a total idiot and breaking rules you shouldn't get banned. Mods are justl ike posters otherwise. that plus I have argued enough times with Duckroll and usually proven wrong. It is what it is.
 
Dance In My Blood said:
Guillo, you're being pretty obnoxious and dumb. Please look these words up in a dictionary to avoid any potential misinterpretation of how I might actually feel.
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According to the original and therefore only accetable usage i'm:

a. Lacking the power of speech. Used of animals and inanimate objects.
2. Archaic Exposed to harm, injury, or evil: "The town ... now lies obnoxious to its foes" (John Bunyan).

Also, why are you using Obnoxious? It's an uncorrected form of obnoctious.
 
1. Gay has both definitions in the dictionary.
2. Hipster is defined as someone who follows the latest trends, not a lover of jazz. It just happens that the last time the word was commonly used was back in the jazz times.
 
Guillo said:
I'm not trying to bail out. But i've been lurking her for a long time and i know about your past arguments. (You once banned a dude because he called some DS game graphic bad) So i'm sorry if i'm a tad afraid to answer your posts until i got past 300 messages.
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Wait, now you're going off the rails and accusing me of banning people I argue with? Wow. This is disgusting and uncalled for. Either you misunderstood why someone was banned, or you are making up shit to insult me. This is now more serious than the rest of the discussion because my credibility is being called into question here and that will not stand.
 
duckroll said:
http://sg.movies.yahoo.com/Wolf Children/movie/17114/

Wolf Children
Release Date: 6th September 2012
Language: Japanese
Genre: Drama
Director: Mamoru Hosoda
Cast: Aoi Miyazaki, Takao Osawa
Local Distributor: Encore Films

YES! (MAINLY) MY BELOVED PALS AND FELLOW MEMBERS OF THIS FORUMS FROM THE U.K. & U.S.A. CAN SUCK IT! (FOR THE MOMENT, ALL IS IN THE AIR SO DON'T LOSE HOPE) :D
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Fixed. Half the world is going to have the opportunity, so little privileges this time for anyone (Japan included). I hope this begins a trend.
 
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