Professor Beef
Banned
THAT'S your big hangup? Oh lordy.
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Super Smash Bros. Community Thread |OT| Next Super Smash Bros. Discussion
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
THAT'S your big hangup? Oh lordy.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's the one thing that keeps bugging me yes. It's one thing to make a big deal that a character got away with it, it's different when it's just brushed away.
She was following orders. They get that, that's pretty much all there is to it.
Professor Beef
Banned
She also realized what she did was wrong, and helped save Dagger.
Did you even play FF9, BD?
GiantBreadbug
Member
I'm still counting on more than two, I think
Me too. I can see it if they really want Smash out as early as possible and HD-ifying the previously-3DS-exclusive content took a lot of the dev time, but I'd still be legitimately surprised all the same. I'm still going with my bet that we'll have at least 5 new characters in the base remaster, including veterans.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
That doesn't make it any less invalid, otherwise you'd pretty much have many atrocities be struck with that excuse.
So essentially she wasn't really atoning and being repentant. Helping Dagger doesn't absolve her at all since she never actually helped the surviving rat people. It's pretty much the traditional excuse you've seen being used in many an RPG to a character that's you're supposedly feel sorry for despite on what she did.
And I did, that's why I'd argue it has a really terrible final boss, at least Ultimecia tied in to many early stuff.
hell, fucking
Micchy/Mitsuzane
Nocturnowl
Member
Beef finally seeing what it's like on the opposite end of the heel beef treatment.
You're completely missing the point. Beatrix is ordered by the Queen to lead an attack on Burmecia. As the General of the Alexandrian army, she has no choice but to comply. Doing otherwise would result in treason on her part, but the most important thing to note is that Beatrix is too prideful and loyal to Alexandria to see what's really going on. It's a part of her character arc; she eventually realizes she was in the wrong and tries to repent (even teaming up with and basically apologizing to Freya).
So throwing a fit about that is completely, completely pointless.
So throwing a fit about that is completely, completely pointless.
You remind me of a guy I knew who hated KI:U because Viridi killed some humans and they just roll with it. HMPH.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I'm angry at it because it feels like a typical character handling in a video game - "she's part of the good guys obviously so all her wrongdoings will be cleared off with a light tap". Yeah she said she is remorseful, but this is the problem, the character relied solely on "I said it so it must be happening", rather than showing. And yes I get her character, but it adds more to why it's hard to empathize on her.
Someone made a really great comparison with her vs. Cecil and how Cecil was handled much better with their genocides.
And technically you've dampened a lot of Viridi's plot and Palutena wasn't a good character either, and the whole setting was pretty much MST3K so VIridi's actions wasn't as jarring.
Geminosity
Member
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Nice shot, if I do say so myself! Good riddance, human scum! The world's better off without you!
Professor Beef
Banned
If you're listening to a FF4 fan, then it's clear that you'll believe anything.
Green Mamba
Member
All this FFIX talk is pretty far off topic, but my two cents is that if FFIX didn't have a completely borked battle system (and believe me it is borked) it would be far and away the best of the three PS FF titles, and it wouldn't even be a remotely close contest. As the game is, though, I would put it just behind FFVII. FFVIII is garbo tier.
Don't you mean Rayman and a seventh Fire Emblem character?
I mean we felt relatively certain going into last December that we were getting Wolf back and look where we are now--I think the last character anyone really successfully predicted was Mewtwo as DLC. Every character since has kind of come from left field.
If we really do end up getting just two characters can the Ice Climbers really cut it as new version headliners? As cool as it would be to have them back I think, if it is just two characters, Nintendo would want to push for more relevant characters to the Switch and guest headliners. Inkling I can see happening, but at just two characters I have a hard time seeing the Ice Climbers.
I could see the ballot being sourced again--didn't the Japanese ballot site mention that it would be used for future Smash titles?
Inkling and Ice Climbers?
Don't you mean Rayman and a seventh Fire Emblem character?
I mean we felt relatively certain going into last December that we were getting Wolf back and look where we are now--I think the last character anyone really successfully predicted was Mewtwo as DLC. Every character since has kind of come from left field.
If we really do end up getting just two characters can the Ice Climbers really cut it as new version headliners? As cool as it would be to have them back I think, if it is just two characters, Nintendo would want to push for more relevant characters to the Switch and guest headliners. Inkling I can see happening, but at just two characters I have a hard time seeing the Ice Climbers.
I could see the ballot being sourced again--didn't the Japanese ballot site mention that it would be used for future Smash titles?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
VIII has junction system which breaks the game so greatly, any system that allows you to do that makes it automatically god tier
it's why SO2, SO3, and SO1remake were great, you could easily break the game if you explore
oh u
it's why SO2, SO3, and SO1remake were great, you could easily break the game if you explore
oh u
Geminosity
Member
So... coming back to the 'service' idea, what if they were only releasing with two new characters but with a schedule of more to come afterwards?
Wait, SO as in Star Ocean? i'm a huge fan of SO3 if so, but then again I'm kinda a tri-ace combat fan in general :3
TheDinoman
Member
I think we just need to look at this potential Smash Switch as simply a Director's Cut version of Smash 4, that's what PushDustin's source actually described it as.. The Ice Climbers weren't cut because of time constraints or relevancy or whatever like Wolf, they were only cut because the 3DS version couldn't run them, and would of absolutely been in otherwise, considering they've been series mainstays in the same way characters like Ness and Falcon are. Obviously they couldn't have been made DLC because they needed the characters to work on both 3DS and Wii U. But now we're taking Smash 4 and putting it on the Switch, where it can now run the Ice Climbers.
The Ice Climbers still make appearances in stuff like Super Mario Maker, NES Classic and Nintendo Badge Arcade, so they're still kind of on Nintendo's minds.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Ice Climbers were only cut because of technical reasons. They passed whatever normal requirements there are to come back, with only a technical barrier to them being cut.
The Switch won't have these technical issues (the Wii U didn't even), so what exactly would be the excuse if they don't return on the Switch? The community generally seems to be expecting them, because we know why they were cut and now that excuse isn't relevant anymore.
Most of the DLC characters were third party new comers. But three of them were just popular cut vets. And half of the DLC stages are old cut stages. So it's not necessarily a sure thing that you need brand new shiny third parties to sell content.
The Switch won't have these technical issues (the Wii U didn't even), so what exactly would be the excuse if they don't return on the Switch? The community generally seems to be expecting them, because we know why they were cut and now that excuse isn't relevant anymore.
Most of the DLC characters were third party new comers. But three of them were just popular cut vets. And half of the DLC stages are old cut stages. So it's not necessarily a sure thing that you need brand new shiny third parties to sell content.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Viridi did nothing wrong
Maybe if people weren't selfish monkeys she wouldn't have had to blow them up with nature meteors
Maybe if people weren't selfish monkeys she wouldn't have had to blow them up with nature meteors
Professor Beef
Banned
Ice Climbers would be heavily neutered without chain grabs. At least Falco had other toys to work with, but the Ice Climbers weren't even that great to begin with.
A bit late but I got 97th at ZeRo saga. Wish I could have done better lol. Had to play Fatality 2nd round of Winners, got destroyed. Never played a Falcon on that level before.
Watching Leo take it while watching the tourney from the front row was pretty hype. I wish VoiD could have taken it but Leo was incredible.
I'm sure someone will find a Footstool setup with Ice Climbers even with the grab limit....or they could always rework them. I mean look at Ness who had some minor changes and system changes made to him and he's a decent character in Smash 4 whereas in the past he's had some major issues.
Watching Leo take it while watching the tourney from the front row was pretty hype. I wish VoiD could have taken it but Leo was incredible.
I'm sure someone will find a Footstool setup with Ice Climbers even with the grab limit....or they could always rework them. I mean look at Ness who had some minor changes and system changes made to him and he's a decent character in Smash 4 whereas in the past he's had some major issues.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Besides, we need Ice Climbers in Smash to show that you don't need to star in a good game to be in Smash.
Geminosity
Member
Yeah, I must admit that it kind of puzzled me that they'd got into the smash series as I'd played their game way back when i was lil and even now I remember how clunky and unsatisfying a game it was. A really odd choice from the old library to bring back but I guess Sakurai was more interested in what he could do with the characters rather than the game they were from being worth playing (and believe me, it's really not
)Professor Beef
Banned
but earthbound
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
It's okay to expect for the worst, but it's not 100% sure thing since rumors are rumors, not facts for sure thing.
My feeling about service updates.
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah, I must admit that it kind of puzzled me that they'd got into the smash series as I'd played their game way back when i was lil and even now I remember how clunky and unsatisfying a game it was. A really odd choice from the old library to bring back but I guess Sakurai was more interested in what he could do with the characters rather than the game they were from being worth playing (and believe me, it's really not
From what I remember (and I'm sure someone like Ryce or PushDustIn will know more about this and correct me if I'm wrong), it was something among the lines of Sakurai wanting to have a pair/twin type character and upon going through the Nintendo library, he felt the Ice Climbers were the best fit since both characters played identically, while also representing the whole historical/retro aspect, as Ice Climber was one of the very first titles Nintendo created for the NES (before Super Mario Bros. even), so the game ticked a few boxes that just made them work perfectly.
TheDinoman
Member
It's well documented that Ice Climbers got into Smash because Sakurai wanted a character to represent old quirky one-off NES/Famicom games, yeah.
The other options he considered were characters like Bubbles from Clu Clu Land and Urban Champion. Ice Climbers got in over them because he thought they were the most interesting from a gameplay standpoint.
The other options he considered were characters like Bubbles from Clu Clu Land and Urban Champion. Ice Climbers got in over them because he thought they were the most interesting from a gameplay standpoint.
balladofwindfishes
Member
This is very important to note when people say Ice Climber is a bad game, because it explains the broken jump physics. Nintendo just didn't really perfect jump physics until Super Mario Bros, so games before it have pretty janky jump physics (Donkey Kong, Ice Climber, Mario Bros, DK Jr).
It's totally a terrible game though. But there's at least a reason why it's terrible. It's a product of its time. A time before actual working jump mechanics.
Bowser is completely broken against most CQC characters due to completely removing shield pressuring out of the match and the absurd risk-benefit ratio of all his defensive options. You whiff something? Here, take 50% damage or a UpB. It gets tiresome.
His ledge guard options are ridiculous. UpB can be spaced to cover at least 3 options every time, plus dtilt can hit some characters while recovering.
It's very hard to KO out of gimping.
It also hurts the feeling that the other player has more reliable and consistent options than you, and that you have to completely outplay them in the neutral game to even stand a chance. You can't make a single mistake. It isn't fair.
I have more fun playing against Bayonettas at this point.
His ledge guard options are ridiculous. UpB can be spaced to cover at least 3 options every time, plus dtilt can hit some characters while recovering.
It's very hard to KO out of gimping.
It also hurts the feeling that the other player has more reliable and consistent options than you, and that you have to completely outplay them in the neutral game to even stand a chance. You can't make a single mistake. It isn't fair.
I have more fun playing against Bayonettas at this point.
Red Arremer
Member
The programmer thought of it a warmup before coding SMB, too. lol
So to some extent, Ice Climber could be considered to be some sort of prototype/demo game.
Professor Beef
Banned
You're making Bowser sound like a bigger boogeyman than he actually is. Who are you trying to fight him with?
My best chars are Falcon and Marth and we played only in Smashville, which in retrospect didn't seem like a good idea.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah, I must admit that it kind of puzzled me that they'd got into the smash series as I'd played their game way back when i was lil and even now I remember how clunky and unsatisfying a game it was. A really odd choice from the old library to bring back but I guess Sakurai was more interested in what he could do with the characters rather than the game they were from being worth playing (and believe me, it's really not
Yeah but DK, MB and DKJr had jumping mechanics that were fine despite antiquated, primarily because the enemies are slow enough to be read and the jump gives adequate airtime.
Ice Climbers was focused more on vertical jumping and even had slippery floors, but because the jumping was bad yet was a major focus, it really showed what a terrible game it was
But yeah they were mostly for character than their game representation, but still works as a good example of "hey that character can get in despite being in a shitty game!"
It does make me wonder though if appearing in Smash somehow makes your "absolved". I remember some people saying "IC is a classic masterpiece" due to their Smash appearance.
It's honestly a decent game overblown by its nicheness and its fanbase
balladofwindfishes
Member
IC can be a true classic without actually being a good game.
At the time, it was really ambitious to have complex, precise platforming. It was also the ground work for much better platformers, and even today, mobile somewhat brought back Ice Climber in the form of infinite jumping games which are basically just Ice Climber with no set top to the stage (and some of them have tops to the stage, so they're even more like IC).
At the time, it was really ambitious to have complex, precise platforming. It was also the ground work for much better platformers, and even today, mobile somewhat brought back Ice Climber in the form of infinite jumping games which are basically just Ice Climber with no set top to the stage (and some of them have tops to the stage, so they're even more like IC).
MrSaturn99
Member
look at all these terrible earthbound opinions
I enjoyed Ice Climbers. Breaking the blocks is fun and I thought it was pretty funny how in multiplayer you can bounce into each other.
I enjoyed Ice Climbers. Breaking the blocks is fun and I thought it was pretty funny how in multiplayer you can bounce into each other.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It was Christmas, 2003. I was opening my presents and I get this odd contraption known as an "e-reader"
What a bizarre thing.
But to my excitement, right next to the e-reader was a card pack for "Ice Climber"
"Oh boy" my 13 year old self thought. "Now I can play the game those two, from my favorite game Melee are from. Surely it must be a fantastic game to get into Smash!"
So I sit there for the 5 minutes it takes to tediously scan in the 10 or whatever cards to play Ice Climber. I turn the game on. Here it comes!
"Wait, I didn't want to jump there. Why can't I just jump right!? Where's the other Ice Climber? There's only one character here? This game is terrible, what the heck, why are these two in Smash Bros!?"
And that's when I first played Ice Climber.
What a bizarre thing.
But to my excitement, right next to the e-reader was a card pack for "Ice Climber"
"Oh boy" my 13 year old self thought. "Now I can play the game those two, from my favorite game Melee are from. Surely it must be a fantastic game to get into Smash!"
So I sit there for the 5 minutes it takes to tediously scan in the 10 or whatever cards to play Ice Climber. I turn the game on. Here it comes!
"Wait, I didn't want to jump there. Why can't I just jump right!? Where's the other Ice Climber? There's only one character here? This game is terrible, what the heck, why are these two in Smash Bros!?"
And that's when I first played Ice Climber.
All you all calling it Ice Climbers are wrong. The game is just called Ice Climber. Ice Climbers are the characters, Ice Climber is the game
Marth can be pretty bad for Bowser unless you're a Marth God, and yeah, Falcon's CQC will generally lose out to Bowser unless you play really well. Bowser is pretty obnoxious in most matchups tbh, but definitely beatable. You just need to get good at capitalizing punishments on him (ie: stringing longer combos), punish his enormous landing lag, and get a bunch of free damage against his linear recovery. Above all else, you need to be patient because screwing up once can cost you a stock.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Honestly they should really balance attack clash and priorities.
Why the fuck would Pikachu's neutral A cancel out Ike or Bowser's neutral A or forward Smash?
Why the fuck would Pikachu's neutral A cancel out Ike or Bowser's neutral A or forward Smash?
MrSaturn99
Member
I came across one of those Animal Crossing e-reader cards the other day and I think it's pretty funny they've more or less revived that concept into amiibo cards
also I don't know how on earth I made that Ice Climber mistake. Autocorrect?
Professor Beef
Banned
I only speak in truths.
Dude, like I told you before
That. Is. Not. How. It. Works
With a few exceptions, it's strictly based on damage. If a move is more than 9% stronger than another move, it will beat it out. So Pikachu's neutral A will always lose to Bowser/Ike Forward Smash, straight up.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
huh I missed that post lol
and maybe it's just my memory being foggy, because I was sure pika's A managed to do a clash-neutralize with a smash attack
I guess in fairness, the older smash games had some janky ass moves
And the less said about Metaknight and his transcendent hitboxes in Brawl, the better...
balladofwindfishes
Member
They could tweak it so the 9% scales with weight or something if they really wanted to
0.09 * 1/character weight or something that would make bigger characters have their moves break through more often. But not enough where light characters would be crippled to even touch heavy characters.
Because good christ if Snake ever came back and could block basically everything.
But I don't really see the need. It's not like all light characters are better than heavies. Nobody is going to say Bowser or Charizard are not as good or better than Jigglypuff or Mr Game and Watch because they're heavy and can't break through Jigglypuff's amazing attacks.
0.09 * 1/character weight or something that would make bigger characters have their moves break through more often. But not enough where light characters would be crippled to even touch heavy characters.
Because good christ if Snake ever came back and could block basically everything.
But I don't really see the need. It's not like all light characters are better than heavies. Nobody is going to say Bowser or Charizard are not as good or better than Jigglypuff or Mr Game and Watch because they're heavy and can't break through Jigglypuff's amazing attacks.
fredrancour
Member
pikachu's nair was stronger in brawl by a bit. might've been possible there.
Making it scale based on weight would be a super duper bad idea. Characters like Bowser, DK and Gdorf could spam their tilts and just power through everything.
Do not want!
Honestly, Heavyweights are in a good spot in Smash 4. They're not really bad barring Ganondorf, who can stay bad for all eternity.
TheDinoman
Member
Dedede?
balladofwindfishes
Member
The visuals of Ganondorf blocking everything with his forward tilt is pretty funny though
MrSaturn99
Member
But he's perfect!