Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U Thread 5: Yarning for Yoshi
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
If you don't want to wavedash, fine. Use other techniques such as L-Cancelling, gimping, and dash dancing to make up for that momentum.
Losing and blaming it on a game mechanic is just being a poor sport to be honest.
The thing I loved about The Wonderful 101 and a lot of older games is that they didn't baby you throughout every single step. You learned the mechanics and what not through exploration.
Typical fighting games such as Street Fighter are the same. You might say I don't like FADC or parrying but those features are part of the game and not taking advantage of them is your own fault. Do games hold your hand and specifically teach you how to perform certain techniques and cancels? No, the community and the individual player finds out through experience and testing what the game has to offer.
There will be a casual audience and there will be a competitive audience and a change in game mechanics negatively affect the competitive audience much more than it does with the casual audience.
Like other fighting games, smash shouldn't have to completely dumb down it's gameplay nor teach it's audience every single mechanic like modern games do today.
People will play smash casually and not have to worry about certain things because that's how they want to enjoy the game and how they want to have fun. The moment you step into the competitive scene and try to give it your all in Smash, you're going to have to accept the fact that there will be techniques such as wavedashing and double jump cancels.
A person doesn't go up to a Street Fighter tourney and whine that FADC and parrying is unfair and should not be part of the game. The same applies to Smash and if you're bothered by competitive scenes, then play casually. If you don't want to find that shit online, host a casual 1v1 room or something. Don't segregate and negatively impact an entire community because of a single gameplay mechanic.
Apply this logic to Marvel, Tekken, and a plethora of other fighting games. There are casual rooms for those games and if you don't want to bother learning certain techniques, then you don't have to.
Most competitive players understand the input lag and instability of online play anyway. If they wanted to pull off these techniques to their full potential, they wouldn't even be online and they'd be playing locals.
I respect the casual fanbase and what they want to see, but it makes no sense to advocate for a change that completely hurts and alienates another part of the fanbase with little consequence to their own.
With that said, I do hope that they bring back certain mechanics because at the end of the day, despite all it's unique traits, Smash is still a fighting game and it shouldn't have to be dumbed down to be enjoyed.
Losing and blaming it on a game mechanic is just being a poor sport to be honest.
The thing I loved about The Wonderful 101 and a lot of older games is that they didn't baby you throughout every single step. You learned the mechanics and what not through exploration.
Typical fighting games such as Street Fighter are the same. You might say I don't like FADC or parrying but those features are part of the game and not taking advantage of them is your own fault. Do games hold your hand and specifically teach you how to perform certain techniques and cancels? No, the community and the individual player finds out through experience and testing what the game has to offer.
There will be a casual audience and there will be a competitive audience and a change in game mechanics negatively affect the competitive audience much more than it does with the casual audience.
Like other fighting games, smash shouldn't have to completely dumb down it's gameplay nor teach it's audience every single mechanic like modern games do today.
People will play smash casually and not have to worry about certain things because that's how they want to enjoy the game and how they want to have fun. The moment you step into the competitive scene and try to give it your all in Smash, you're going to have to accept the fact that there will be techniques such as wavedashing and double jump cancels.
A person doesn't go up to a Street Fighter tourney and whine that FADC and parrying is unfair and should not be part of the game. The same applies to Smash and if you're bothered by competitive scenes, then play casually. If you don't want to find that shit online, host a casual 1v1 room or something. Don't segregate and negatively impact an entire community because of a single gameplay mechanic.
Apply this logic to Marvel, Tekken, and a plethora of other fighting games. There are casual rooms for those games and if you don't want to bother learning certain techniques, then you don't have to.
Most competitive players understand the input lag and instability of online play anyway. If they wanted to pull off these techniques to their full potential, they wouldn't even be online and they'd be playing locals.
I respect the casual fanbase and what they want to see, but it makes no sense to advocate for a change that completely hurts and alienates another part of the fanbase with little consequence to their own.
With that said, I do hope that they bring back certain mechanics because at the end of the day, despite all it's unique traits, Smash is still a fighting game and it shouldn't have to be dumbed down to be enjoyed.
Benzychenz
Member
All those mechanics were unintentional, which is why they weren't in Brawl. Comparing that to a game like W101 where every movement and mechanic is finely crafted is just silly.
W101 is one of my favourite games of all time for that reason, and yet I think exploiting things like wavedashing is stupid.
Of course 'pro' players are going to use every trick they can to win, but don't expect those tricks to stick around in future games when they were never intended to be there in the first place.
MrSaturn99
Member
welp here we go again
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Hopefully we will get good image tomorrow before the chaos exploded right in our face.
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ability to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?
Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.
Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.
I disagree. Being able to wavedash didn't make a player amazing (I could do it and I certainly wasn't winning tournaments), but an amazing player would be able to wavedash. Replace wavedash with any other unintentional mechanic. There will be a divide between people playing for casual fun and more serious competition regardless of extra mechanics. Not to mention the divide between people wanting items on/off, certain stages off, etc. Hopefully there are decent matchmaking options.
Barrow Roll
Member
Obligatory post about combos in Street Fighter 2 being an unintentional glitch yet being incorporated into every future installment and forming the backbone of fighting games for years to come.
If something unintentional was cool and embraced by your players then just run with it. Make it a feature to rally behind.
If something unintentional was cool and embraced by your players then just run with it. Make it a feature to rally behind.
Dr. Buni
Member
Me neither. I am satisfied with Brawl gameplay, except for tripping, which gladly will be removed in SSB4.
Red Arremer
Member
theprodigy
Member
I'm not sure what people are expecting from wavedashing being removed
because if Brawl is any indication, pros are going to be extra disrespectful to make up for it
because if Brawl is any indication, pros are going to be extra disrespectful to make up for it
Benzychenz
Member
Yes, but look at these two scenarios:
1. A casual player comes up against a more pro player online, the pro player wipes the floor with them, but the casual player can see every move the pro player is doing, and can understand everything that is happening. With enough practice they would be able to do that themselves, and it gives them something to strive towards.
2. A casual player comes up against a more pro player online, the pro player wipes the floor with them by wavedashing, L-cancelling etc and the casual player has no idea what's happening and just gets frustrated. They would have to resort to google/youtube to even find out what is happening.
Anyway I think I'm just going to leave this here, I didn't want to have an argument about this, I just wanted to share my opinion that I don't want Smash 4 to play like Melee.
Take Brawl, speed it up a little, remove tripping, and we're golden.
But tomorrow is a Sunday.
But it's almost 5pm Sunday right now
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
But tomorrow is a Sunday.
It's Sunday for me.
voltronbadA
Member
Wow, thanks for responding. I'll definately be picking up a pair when smash releases then. Honestly haven't seen another game I would use them for other than maybe Mario Kart?
theprodigy
Member
L-Canceliing was completely intentional as it was in Smash 64 and Melee.
The devs slave over frame date for hours on end and to think they didn't know about a mechanic as important as this is inconceivable. I really don't think that the devs would skip over something akin to "what would happen if you air dodged into the ground"
The posters above me made good points
As we see here, it's not intentional:
As for certain mechanics, they do not make or break a player. Several Snake players in Project M don't find the need to wavedash and they make it up for all the other options they have.
In Street Fighter, certain characters don't need to FADC because they have other tools to offset it such as Zangief.
These mechanics are fun to use, but they don't constitute how well you play.
Let's say Mew2King and I play a match and I wavedash and he chooses not to. He'll win 9 times out of 10 if not more.
I'm not trying to downplay another demographic for Smash but for little things like this it affects the competitive fanbase a lot and taking them out would only serve no positive purpose.
If they were never to be intended in the first place, would L-Cancelling ever returned in Melee? Would any sort of chaingrab return from Melee to Brawl?
Would Airdashes and cancels not return in the next iterations of Street Fighter and Marvel?
Tell me how it completely negatively affects you because like I stated before, the minute you step into the competitive scene, you're subjected to these things and you either adapt or you deal with the results. If you don't want to deal with random people doing it, host a casual 1v1 room. Most people who want to take advantage of techs don't even play online and host locals.
Your line of logic is partially why people, like me, get so bothered about it in the first place. It's not like I'm advocating that this game not be catered to casual players at all and I don't see why you can't seem to grasp my points.
For one thing, what me and plenty of other people argue for isn't just part of a "Smash Cycle" or some trivial "Flame War", it's something important and something we cherish much like you other fans cherish your certain characters and items.
Things like these should be discussed and people both fan bases should try to understand where each person is coming from.
From the transition from Melee to Brawl, it was clear who got impacted hardest and the same thing will happen from Brawl to SSB4. The casual audience has not been affected in the way that the competitive audience is and we shouldn't have to completely handicap and turn off an entire dedicated audience because of a game mechanic.
We can make the same argument for any fighting game and any game mechanic in each game and the turnout is going to be the same regardless. There will be mechanics that don't negatively impact a casual audience but if taken away, will completely devastate another demographic altogether.
If wavedashing does return, how would that hurt a casual player who enjoys to play with items and stage hazards? Would wavedashing disadvantage the other player from getting items, no it wouldn't because items add such a random factor that wavedashing wouldn't matter anymore.
The reason why it matters to the competitive scene is because these frames and these techniques speed up and change the little details in the game. The small things constitute the entirety of a competitive scene like the FGC. Smash is no different.
I'd like to know what you have against certain mechanics because I want to understand what the overall underlying hatred for it is. Smash is a fighting game and the fact that it is one will mean that it will have a competitive community with competitive preferences. Yes smash is a party game, but underneath that it's a complex fighting game with an intense following that should not be ignored.
Yes, but look at these two scenarios:
1. A casual player comes up against a more pro player online, the pro player wipes the floor with them, but the casual player can see every move the pro player is doing, and can understand everything that is happening. With enough practice they would be able to do that themselves, and it gives them something to strive towards.
2. A casual player comes up against a more pro player online, the pro player wipes the floor with them by wavedashing, L-cancelling etc and the casual player has no idea what's happening and just gets frustrated. They would have to resort to google/youtube to even find out what is happening.
Anyway I think I'm just going to leave this here, I didn't want to have an argument about this, I just wanted to share my opinion that I don't want Smash 4 to play like Melee.
Take Brawl, speed it up a little, remove tripping, and we're golden.
But it's almost 5pm Sunday right now
Like I said before, if these competitive players were to use advance techniques, they wouldn't be playing online and would be playing locals instead. Ask anyone in the FGC and they can assure you that they do the same.
There are so many different ways to go around it online such as hosting a casual 1v1 room. The first time I played Street Fighter, I got my ass beat because I had no idea what I was doing. The same thing goes with Smash because it's a fighting game.
The reason that they're discouraged means that that level of play is not for them and the reason why it's so great is because Smash allows for different types of play compared to a regular arcade fighter where a casual will be completely turned off.
These things are important and they should be acknowledged by casuals as well.
Dr. Buni
Member
Not sure what you are trying to say, but I had more fun with Brawl than Melee, therefore it is natural of me to want the new game to me similar to Brawl. I am no competitive player nor I want to be, so I don't really know what is so bad about Brawl gameplay (besides tripping). That is not to say Melee wasn't fun, though. It was just a little bit too fast paced.GIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
GIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
oh lawd
GIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
Snake... had a hard life.
C.Olimar788
Member
Oh, we're at the Wavedashing debate part of the GAF Smash cycle? Fantaaaaastic.
Lemme just say one thing on that matter and then I'm out: wavedashing is not, and never was, the Core Reason why Melee was a good competitive game. It helped, but it was not the reason. The reason was a mixture of good mechanics, from crouch cancelling to L-canceling, and solid gameplay that encouraged healthily competitive play instead of strangling it and driving it off like Brawl did.
Lemme just say one thing on that matter and then I'm out: wavedashing is not, and never was, the Core Reason why Melee was a good competitive game. It helped, but it was not the reason. The reason was a mixture of good mechanics, from crouch cancelling to L-canceling, and solid gameplay that encouraged healthily competitive play instead of strangling it and driving it off like Brawl did.
Well that just about sums it up, doesn't it? Brawl was broken, even casual players can see that.GIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
theprodigy
Member
haha and I was advocating for a tilt lock clip
this is even better xD
this is even better xD
You. I like you. Also, argument is over, with this post.
Yeah for sure dude, I hope you go ahead and pick up a Wii U Pro Controller because man is that thing comfortable.
The Wii U Pro controller is supported by a ton of games ranging from Super Mario 3D World to The Wonderful 101.
It's always great to have around 2 with you and your friends could always pick up another controller to bring over.
I really love the controller and I'm sure you'll like it too. Amazon has occasional $5 off sales for the controllers and sometimes you can find a cheap pair on Craigslist.
It's such a shame that they're $50, but hey I'm sure they'll be selling like crazy when the big Wii U games come out. It's that or go deal with Classic Controller Pro...
Sorry for getting into a heated argument about that. It's something that me and many others have a passionate following for and I'm sure a lot of you guys have some obsessions over certain things as well.
Wavedashing argument is officially over, but honestly I want to understand what the underlying hate is and why these fan bases are so divided.
The reason why smash is amazing is because there are so many different ways to play the game that a causal player wouldn't be immediately turned off like in a fighter such as Marvel, SF, or Tekken. That's the thing I really love about Smash and I hope Sakurai does cater to the audiences this time around.
Barrow Roll
Member
Then just teach your players about advanced techniques within the game. Take notes from Killer Instincts Dojo Mode.
theprodigy
Member
I think the more pertinent argument is that no matter what, the winner will be accused of being "cheap"
see: any discussion about fighting games on GAF, then realize the Smash (casual) community is even worse
regarding L-Canceling though, I'd rather them just cut lag times down
C.Olimar788
Member
This would be so nice. SSB could use some extra tutorial stuff to be honest, the Training Movie isn't quite enough.
Just throw in some simple interactive bits for the basic gameplay and show off with Mario or something, and then later on once they've beaten Classic a few times or whatever you can unlock more techniques. Finally they can finish by explaining things like L-cancelling (gosh I hope they bring it back) or whatnot.
A lot of fighting games do this in some form nowadays, I think it'd about time we see SSB do it. It's not nearly as easy to pick up and play as it needs to be, so some kinda short tutorial of the basics would be greatly appreciated for those times when I want to quickly get someone up to speed on the gameplay.
Maybe Smash could add a combo challenge or a new kind of challenge alongside Events in Melee and Brawl.
Third Strike and SFIV had modes where you can do combo challenges such as Evo Moment 37 where you have to parry the entirety of Chun-Li's super and then counter with Ken's Shippu Jinraikyaku.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Seeing similar things done in melee and even OG smash, I wouldnt talk really.
Barrow Roll
Member
That'll happen no matter what, teaching your players about the finer points of your game should still be a priority.
Hoping we actually have to sweetspot our recoveries in Smash 4. Plus no more backwards ledge grabbing and ridiculous ledge grab range please? Players should have to work a little bit for their recoveries.
theprodigy
Member
laser locks, tilt locks, and inescapable chaingrabs up to 80% for characters not named Ice Climbers aren't in Melee
the last one might be in 64 though with all that hitstun, at least leading off of a grab (at least Falcon Punch finishers off the top of the screen are actually hype though)
Wavedashing isn't what makes Brawl such a slower-paced, more annoying game to play competitively (and even casually in some instances). The number of systems in the game designed to keep players from actually accomplishing their main goal of K.O.ing other players do that quite well themselves:
-Grabbing ledges while moving upwards in the air, so that nobody can keep people off of the stage reliably
-Being able to cancel hitstun with attacks, because no matter how much of a combo game you prefer in Smash Bros, you gotta admit that an attack being unsafe on hit because your opponent can just press A and bonk you is pretty dumb
-Stale moves affecting knockback as well as damage; in melee using a move too many times would reduce its damage, while in Brawl it would also reduce knockback... the problem is that almost all of a character's moves do damage, but only a few are reliable kill moves, so the match ends up dragging itself out
-Ridiculous recoveries; was it confirmed that Pit was getting a different up-B/recovery move? Because it looked like that in the first trailer. Anyway, 5 jumps + glide + shuttle loop into another glide = lol Meta Knight can't die
-Longer invincibility on the ledge; combines with point 1 to make it safer to be hanging on a ledge by your fingertips than to be anywhere else
Really, Brawl's movement could have made for a good competitive game, despite the slower pace; but then everything else happened.
-Grabbing ledges while moving upwards in the air, so that nobody can keep people off of the stage reliably
-Being able to cancel hitstun with attacks, because no matter how much of a combo game you prefer in Smash Bros, you gotta admit that an attack being unsafe on hit because your opponent can just press A and bonk you is pretty dumb
-Stale moves affecting knockback as well as damage; in melee using a move too many times would reduce its damage, while in Brawl it would also reduce knockback... the problem is that almost all of a character's moves do damage, but only a few are reliable kill moves, so the match ends up dragging itself out
-Ridiculous recoveries; was it confirmed that Pit was getting a different up-B/recovery move? Because it looked like that in the first trailer. Anyway, 5 jumps + glide + shuttle loop into another glide = lol Meta Knight can't die
-Longer invincibility on the ledge; combines with point 1 to make it safer to be hanging on a ledge by your fingertips than to be anywhere else
Really, Brawl's movement could have made for a good competitive game, despite the slower pace; but then everything else happened.
There's your combos!GIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
DICKS AHOY
Banned
shoulda rolledGIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
soviet prince
Member
can not wait for this week to start
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze comes out Thursday, so we should probably be getting Diddy Kong then, though I wouldn't be surprised if we only get something like a new stage.
Pokémon is the hardest series to choose characters from because of the amount and the relevancy in the future. I don't think characters like Blaziken or Greninja will make much sense in the next Smash Bros. I think this way about Jigglypuff too, but she's been in since the very beginning, so what are you gonna do?
But if I had to choose? Probably Deoxys.
_art.png)
But since he's Psychic just like Mewtwo, Genesect is cool too.
I still think Meowth deserves a place in Smash Brothers. He's one of the few Pokemon that still shows up in the anime to this date, and still shows up in merchandise.
Dimitri LH
Member
Gallade/Gardevoir for me....yeah yeah shut up. Eevee would be cool but he would be tiny as hell....what am I taking about? That's no excuse in smash lol.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I disagree. Blaziken was popular pre-release and is still popular in Gen 6. Meanwhile Deoxys' popularity faded 9-10 years ago. I don't see any reason why Deoxys or Genesect's will be that relevant come next smash. Unlike Blaziken which has maintained popularity since 2002/2003 and will likely be having a remake of its debut game in the not so distant future. I'm not advocating Blaziken for Smash right now but I'd say it has decent chances over a lot of other pokemon. If there were to be a new pokemon character for this Smash I'd say it'd likely be Blaziken, Eevee & its evolutions or something similar to Pokemon Trainer using starters from a different gen(s)Pokémon is the hardest series to choose characters from because of the amount and the relevancy in the future. I don't think characters like Blaziken or Greninja will make much sense in the next Smash Bros. I think this way about Jigglypuff too, but she's been in since the very beginning, so what are you gonna do?
But if I had to choose? Probably Deoxys.
But since he's Psychic just like Mewtwo, Genesect is cool too.
SenorArdilla
Member
I'd be happy with all the current Pokemon characters along with Mewtwo.
Slippy Toed.
Slippy Toed.
Troubled Bat
Member
Politoed should be in Smash 4.
Reported for uploading on i.minus.comGIF OF THE DAY
Brawl gameplay
Seriously, I don't think it would be possible to find a worse site for uploading GIFs if you were actively trying. So fucking slow.
@drama:
Just introduce a forced ladder with no option for true random battles and I will be fine. If Pros want to trash on bad players they can create their own invite-only room for friends or play local. Bad players will be on roughly the same level and have more fun like that, too.
Also: Extra cheaters room with Brawl net code for disconnectors.
theprodigy
Member
what does this even mean
Make every random online battle ranked, that's what it means. That way everyone can play with people roughly at their level and won't suddenly get bodied because they were matched up against someone way better than them.