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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT| It's out in Japan

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A

Anura

Member
Galaxy vs 64? Well the reason why I liked 64 more was that it had so little structure and it was a blast to use the huge list of moves Mario has to find unique ways to get stars and simply traverse the world. For reasons I can't explain I also feel 64 platforming was just more fun... I don't know why exactly but he just feels more enjoyable to control for me
 
M

MrSaturn99

Member
I adore the Galaxy series, but I can't think of a Nintendo game that controls better than Mario 64. Probably why it's still my favorite Mario game.
 
D

DaBoss

Member
chaosblade said:
To be fair that kind of depends on what you're referring to. Mario in 64 has a lot more moves and abilities he didn't have in later games. Yes the camera is wonky as hell, a lot of the courses aren't very good, and the goal design leaves a lot to be desired by today's standards, but as far as player's control over Mario goes, I think the Galaxy games are a step backwards. (And for reference, the Galaxy games are pretty much my favorite games ever, so that's not to say they aren't good or don't do anything right)
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Except when you take into the fact that the Galaxy games are designed differently with those controls in mind. Games are designed with the player's control over the character in mind.

Mario 64 is more open and loose while Mario Galaxy is more linear and stiff. If you expect that you would have Mario 64's controls in Galaxy or vice versa, then you would have different games.

And then let's take 3D Land/World into consideration. They've designed the levels so that you mostly go in 8 directions for the most part and you can change directions pretty much instantly. Having Galaxy's or 64's controls in that would not fit the game.

And that's only referring to movement. Attacks in later Mario games are designed so that you can stomp on them or require a specific power up. A Mario able to punch would defeat that.

You can prefer one over another, but calling it a step backwards is incorrect.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
PadWarrior said:
It's been fun guys but I'm taking a break from this thread. Discussions are no longer fun here.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. I think I might go back to reading the pre-release threads. I don't know, they were just more fun to me. I'll be able to gets little more out of this thread, but eventually I see myself just rereading the old threads over and over.
 
T

Timeaisis

Member
Steve Youngblood said:
RE: Should we embrace something new or demand more of the same, but refined?

I always think this is somewhat of a difficult discussion to delve into. Mainly because I feel like people -- no matter which side of the divide the reside on -- are prone to react more emotionally than rationally in terms of assessing the new vs. old debate. And that's not inherently a problem, mind you. I don't think people need to be cold, heartless robots who place objectivity before all else. But it can make a discussion like this result in fruitless meandering wherein people just talk past each other as they group the people they disagree with together perhaps unfairly.

And by that, I mean that it obviously does happen that some people just don't like change. Even if the new thing is better, they don't like it. It's different, and they don't like different. Even if the changes are demonstrably better, it doesn't feel right. Conversely, I think there are others who just grow tired of the same old same old to the point where any change -- even bad ones -- are welcomed. Even if the new thing is ostensibly way worse than the old, they'll argue that it's time to embrace change and that the people who disagree are just curmudgeonly old fools yelling at clouds.

It's not hard to understand why this is. After all, different strokes for different folks is a well-known adage. But the problem just becomes when some people earnestly want to discuss the merits of the new versus the old, but any attempt at rational discussion becomes ignored in favor of the two broader camps attacking strawmen versions of each other. Maybe Melee is always going to be my favorite game, but that doesn't mean that insight about Smash 4 is off base. Maybe I do like flashier new things replacing the tired old things of yesteryear, but also have valid reasons for liking Smash 4.

Personally, I'm not as invested in mechanical analysis as others are. I think the pro Smash scene is interesting and I enjoy watching pro matches now and then, but it's not something that I strive towards. Mind you, there were things about Brawl that I didn't like. But I think the reason why I hold Melee in higher regard has less to do with it being the objectively better game (though I think it is), and more to do with the fact that Melee existed during a different time in my life where I actually had access to a group of people in college that liked to play games all the time. There was a good solid year there where we got together to play Melee at least once a week, and continued to play less regularly than that for at least a couple more years. By the time of Brawl's release, we still got together occasionally, but not like in the college days.

Aside from the fact that I always like to work through the single player content of new Smash games, I'm hoping that -- despite having even less time for games now than when Brawl came out -- the online play for Smash 4 will be competent enough to keep playing for a bit. Brawl was obviously a mess in that regard, but the early impressions from the Japanese 3DS release seem promising enough. I guess we'll see what happens.

Anyhow, I kind of went on a tangent there. I understand that there's always going to be skepticism between the different camps that form in regards to the motivations of the people they disagree with. But I do think we need to understand that there's going to be people that want to focus on the here and now and others who want to compare it to past entries. And I think there's room in the discussion for both to co-exist.
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Excellent post, as usual. I think I like Melee more for the same reasons you do -- the point of my life it was released. I was in high school and had a dedicated group of guys to play with. It was awesome and I probably played it for 500 hours total. Brawl, I played a lot in college but not nearly as much as Melee. It came out during the later part of my college and I was pretty busy with my studies to be able to play as much.

So yeah, I think it's more about the experience I had with the game with friends versus the mechanics that makes Melee a better game for me: I just played it more with friends than I did Brawl.

For Smash 4, I already have a group of guys I know I'll be able to play with, so I already am sure I'll enjoy it even more than Brawl.

But for the new vs old debate, I agree, it's mostly people who want change vs people who don't. You certainly can't please everyone. For me, the Smash games have been less about the mechanics and more about the experience. That's not to say that mechanics don't matter: they do! It's just that the experiences that come out of those mechanics are what make a game fun. All signs point to Smash 4 being a fun game to play with friends, which is exactly what I'm after at this point in my life.

We can go back to the audience discussion again, because that's really what I think this is about. What are you in it for, kind of deal.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
PreyingShark said:
ITT people who don't own the game think that the opinions of people who actually own the game are unreasonable.
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More like, ITT people like me WANT to own the game but live in the wrong country so we are sad, so very sad.

I would guess the thread may change a bit when the game releases worldwide but perhaps I am mistaken if all the techniques/mechanics have already been found and understood, and everyone starts using them in the English version off the bat.
 
K

Kouichi

Member
Steve Youngblood said:
RE: Should we embrace something new or demand more of the same, but refined?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insightful post, Steve. It's frustrating how often any debate concerning the differences between the Smash games turns into a toxic discussion with strawmans and hasty generalizations being tossed around. There's certainly an interesting discussion there to be had, but people tend to get too defensive and/or aggressive.
 
M

Mr. Smiley

Member
Anth0ny said:
64 plays way better.

Someone post the Siglemic gifs, I'm on my phone.
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tumblr_m8bv8qjfj41r2op6ko1_400.gif


i posted this on a phone. Step your game up son /jk
 
G

georly

Member
Holy Order Sol said:
oh god fuck no

The audience should be fucking irrelevant. The fact that a need to somehow take it into account has emerged is a problem.
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I stand by that. It needs to be fun for the players, otherwise no one will play it, but the audience is paying the bills. Football/Basketball/Baseball, etc. only work because so many people watch it and WANT to watch it. The audience pays the salary of the players. Why do you think football players get paid more than chess players? If no one wants to watch you play, then no one is going to sponsor you. Size of audience equates to size of salary.

I'm speaking strictly about the big tournament scene. For smash 4 to make it to evo, to mlg, to whatever, people have to want to watch it. The larger the audience, the larger the prize pool. The larger to prize pool, the more competitive players there will be. Just look at dota. Dota/League is fun as hell to watch.

Small tournaments, playing for fun, playing with friends, playing competitive locally - THOSE are all dependent on how fun the game is to play and how much you want to play it. People who want smash 4 to make it big time - that's where smash needs to be fun to WATCH more than anything.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
DaBoss said:
Except when you take into the fact that the Galaxy games are designed differently with those controls in mind. Games are designed with the player's control over the character in mind.

Mario 64 is more open and loose while Mario Galaxy is more linear and stiff. If you expect that you would have Mario 64's controls in Galaxy or vice versa, then you would have different games.

And then let's take 3D Land/World into consideration. They've designed the levels so that you mostly go in 8 directions for the most part and you can change directions pretty much instantly. Having Galaxy's or 64's controls in that would not fit the game.

And that's only referring to movement. Attacks in later Mario games are designed so that you can stomp on them or require a specific power up. A Mario able to punch would defeat that.

You can prefer one over another, but calling it a step backwards is incorrect.
Click to expand...

You missed the point here, I'm talking exclusively about the control you have over your character, not how good the games are or whether or not the lesser control you have makes the games worse. Galaxy as it is is leaps and bounds better than 64 in my opinion and having 64s character control wouldn't really improve it in a meaningful way.

You agree with me you have less control over Mario in those games due to their design in this post, and having less control over your character is a step backwards in regard to the amount of control you have over your character. "Less" can't be equal to "more."

And taking this back to Smash Bros, that's one key reason why a lot of people will go back to Melee and it's a big part of the reason P:M exists. In a fighting game like Smash character control is extremely important and it's understandable people don't want to give that up.



Edit: Also, if people are getting offended by completely non-aggressive opinions about games they don't even have yet it probably is a good idea to stop posting and cool off for a while.
 
W

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I played more Melee than Brawl overall, but I definitely think the timing had a lot to do with it...Melee came out when I was like, 12? I had no job, so I didn't have a lot of money to buy a bunch of extra games, so I tended to spend more time on the ones I had, and I had a lot of free time...also, I had friends back then. When Brawl came out, I was finishing High School, had a steady job, and didn't have as much time for gaming yet I ended up buying more games, so my time was spaced thin. And most of my friends weren't into gaming, and I never really hung out outside of school and work.

Ironically, I might end up spending the most time on Smash 4, since I've graduated college now, and I'm a good-for-nothing who spends all his free time gaming. I've probably beaten more games these last two years than I have in my entire life. I'm seriously gonna regret this when I'm 30 and still a failure.
 
T

Timeaisis

Member
Watch Da Birdie said:
Ironically, I might end up spending the most time on Smash 4, since I've graduated college now, and I'm a good-for-nothing who spends all his free time gaming. I've probably beaten more games these last two years than I have in my entire life. I'm seriously gonna regret this when I'm 30 and still a failure.
Click to expand...

Well, at the very least you will have had fun!
 
P

PreyingShark

Member
IntelliHeath said:
Someone just posted full English names and description for all custom moves. (Yeah, it was in Japanese game)

http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=c2xywrva
Click to expand...
So, regarding Yoshi's custom:
High Jump Jump really high. In midair, you can use the move more than once.
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Has this been tested? I doubt it's worth giving up the egg for though, but then again, if somebody just wants to use Yoshi's normals then there you go.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
I'd say that Melee is (and going by Sakurai's comments, probably always will be) the better game by most metrics I value, except for the one I consider the most important: the characters. If there's one aspect I feel that's ever noticeably aged about the game, it's the size and breadth of its' roster. Maybe people will be discovering new things about Fox and Falco five years from now, but they're still gonna be... Fox and Falco. Melee can't let me play Robin, and it definitely can't let me play Palutena, and coming back is incredibly hard to justify when there are characters that I'd flat-out rather play. Especially when 4's newcomers have a vision and focus behind them that most Melee characters can't really compare to.

...so, I won't go back to Melee. Haven't gone back since PM, actually. I'll watch Melee, and I'll play it if a friend wants me to, but I just can't be satisfied with its' roster anymore. I'll keep playing Project M, because it scratches the itch that Melee did, it's got plenty of characters I really enjoy using and playing against, and if rumours are to be believed, it's eventually going to give me one of the characters I've always wanted (that is to say, Lyn).

And I'll play 4, because I really like the characters, like some of the new mechanics (ledge-stealing in particular), and it's not boring to play or whatever. It's just always going to frustrate me a little because 4 is tantalizingly close to something I could love with no reservations or internal justifications and stops just short thanks to a handful of design decisions.

georly said:
Honestly, if anything, I think the rage mechanic makes for really exciting comebacks. Competitive play is all about what the AUDIENCE finds fun, above all else.

If the audience thinks it's fun to watch, there will be more people watching. If there are more people watching, there will be more sponsors. If there are more sponsors, there will be more money. If there is more money, you'll have more people willing to play it competitively. etc etc.
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I don't really see much potential for 'exciting comebacks' with Rage. It doesn't really inflict enough of an effect to make a big difference and it's not so tiny as to be near-totally unnoticeable. I actually think Rage seems totally irrelevant given that, but whatever. It seems like more of a momentum snowball than a comeback mechanic, in any case. Especially given how long you hold onto stocks in Smash 4. High percent deficits mean a stock lead a lot of the time, so the stock leader's attacks get more potent (if less combo-able, but let's stick with the premise that Rage is a strict bonus) and their opponent's job gets harder.

I think the only time you could consider it a legitimate opportunity for 'comebacks' is for when both players are on their last stock, but I can't even really see it becoming a big factor even then. Both characters will ascend into high percents barring a major fuck-up on one player's part and the whole thing 'evens out' so to speak.

Either way, I don't think there's any real net gain (or loss) from this mechanic as far as what the 'audience' is going to find fun about the game. A circumstance where a Raged Forward Smash by Bowser kills where a regular one doesn't is going to be fairly rare and it's too passive for anyone to care that much about that couldn't be chalked up to the player's skill in general. It'll probably just be something for stream monsters to complain about.
 
D

Dimmle

Member
Steve Youngblood said:
Personally, I'm not as invested in mechanical analysis as others are. I think the pro Smash scene is interesting and I enjoy watching pro matches now and then, but it's not something that I strive towards. Mind you, there were things about Brawl that I didn't like. But I think the reason why I hold Melee in higher regard has less to do with it being the objectively better game (though I think it is), and more to do with the fact that Melee existed during a different time in my life where I actually had access to a group of people in college that liked to play games all the time. There was a good solid year there where we got together to play Melee at least once a week, and continued to play less regularly than that for at least a couple more years. By the time of Brawl's release, we still got together occasionally, but not like in the college days.
Click to expand...

I have to acknowledge the truth in this statement for myself, too. During our senior year of high school, my friends and I had a three hour lunch that we would devote almost every day to Melee, and later Brawl. Smash is a series that I hold close to heart because of what it represented at one point in my life. That's probably true of a lot of people here.
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
Moonlight said:
I'd say that Melee is (and going by Sakurai's comments, probably always will be) the better game by most metrics I value, except for the one I consider the most important: the characters. If there's one aspect I feel that's ever noticeably aged about the game, it's the size and breadth of its' roster. Maybe people will be discovering new things about Fox and Falco five years from now, but they're still gonna be... Fox and Falco. Melee can't let me play Robin, and it definitely can't let me play Palutena, and coming back is incredibly hard to justify when there are characters that I'd flat-out rather play. Especially when 4's newcomers have a vision and focus behind them that most Melee characters can't really compare to.

...so, I won't go back to Melee. Haven't gone back since PM, actually. I'll watch Melee, and I'll play it if a friend wants me to, but I just can't be satisfied with its' roster anymore. I'll keep playing Project M, because it scratches the itch that Melee did, it's got plenty of characters I really enjoy using and playing against, and if rumours are to be believed, it's eventually going to give me one of the characters I've always wanted (that is to say, Lyn).
Click to expand...

Well said

I'll always have fond memories of melee, but I don't plan on going back to it. I'm gonna keep moving forward and play a game where I can kick ass with Robin, Shulk and Palutena.
 
I

Icelandic_Jazz

Member
As I get older I really enjoy dissecting the gameplay of games like Melee and Super Mario 64. I love speedruns and high level competitive play. Studying games and figuring out the ways to be most efficient within the limitations of the game is extremely satisfying to me. I feel games like Melee and Mario 64 have the advantage of being old and nostalgic to a lot of people. They've been around long enough that the entire structure of those games has been pulled apart and observed. To this day people are discovering new ways to go at it despite all the knowledge that already exists on the games. That's not to say it doesn't get stale sometimes. Melee's been out for almost 13 years. It's core gameplay is so strong that it's stayed relatively fresh for that long, but a lot of competitive players and enthusiasts aren't wrong for wanting something new.

Brawl came out and many people were hugely disappointed. The majority of people were cool with it of course, but it's very understandable why the competitive community wasn't too happy. Tripping, floatyness, techs being removed, lack of combos, unbalanced characters.. pretty much a death sentence for a lot of players. The community still tried its best to get the most out of the game. People still play it competitively and while it is very fundamentally different from Melee it still has some merit. I think the fact that something like Project M exists in the first place says a lot. The game wasn't fun to study and dissect and there wasn't much for people like me to dig our teeth into. Brawl was so shallow in fact that people literally injected depth into the game to make it more viable.

With Smash 4 out there's a good amount of promise. Most of the top competitive players have it and a lot of them are enjoying themselves. The game is being picked at, analyzed. It's really interesting to see people figuring out how things like VI and rage work, but it's also a time of frustration seeing people struggle to find combos or find that previous techniques from earlier games no longer work. I think most people are happy that Smash 4 plays differently from all the previous games. It just comes down to if it plays differently and has depth.

The competitive smash community gets a lot of flack for just wanting Melee 2.0. I don't want that and a lot of others don't. I'm totally cool with change, I love change. As long as those changes benefit the game and don't debilitate it. Smash 4 is kinda weird right now to me. Early impressions only mean so much and we'll have to watch how it plays out. My personal opinion as of now is that it has a lot of good changes but if the metagame doesn't grow much beyond what is now then most of the competitive players are going to flock right back to Melee and Project M until Smash 4 is modified just like Brawl. Melee is always going to hold the candle as the deepest game because, quite frankly, Sakurai cares very little about his game being played competitively.

Sorry I kinda ranted there for no reason. With all that said I've enjoyed every Smash game released so far. In the end I really just want to see a Smash game that is both enjoyable for the more casual players as well as the competitive community.
 
B

bigmac996

Member
So lately while playing this I've found my left thumb cramps up pretty badly. Does anyone else have this issue? I dont play for longer than maybe 30 minutes per day.

I've seen some 3DS grips you can purchase, but many of them seem to make it more difficult to use the triggers, which are pretty key in smash. Is there a grip that smash players here would recommend?
 
E

emb

Member
Dimmle said:
I have to acknowledge the truth in this statement for myself, too. During our senior year of high school, my friends and I had a three hour lunch that we would devote almost every day to Melee, and later Brawl. Smash is a series that I hold close to heart because of what it represented at one point in my life. That's probably true of a lot of people here.
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The same is true for me too.

When Smash 64 came out I was in elementary school. I was so excited to see a fighting game with Nintendo characters. I never knew I could roll or do Smash attacks until I played against friends. Back then i just loved the game for what it was on the surface. I loved picking Pikachu and pressing down B. I'd watch computers play matches because I thought I'd learn from it (lol).

I could ramble on and on reminiscing about Smash Bros... but basically, my friends and I played it Melee on and off for about 6 years, started getting into it more in anticipation for Brawl. Eventually Brawl came out, and I was disappointed to see my friends go back. Regardless, we all just kept playing. Eventually we started playing hours each day, since a friend of mine bought a LAN center for us to hang out at. I miss the days where I could play so often and so much, and constantly see myself improve. During my college years we started going to tournaments, I got acquainted with the local community, and good times were had all around.
 
B

Blizzard

Banned
bigmac996 said:
So lately while playing this I've found my left thumb cramps up pretty badly. Does anyone else have this issue? I dont play for longer than maybe 30 minutes per day.

I've seen some 3DS grips you can purchase, but many of them seem to make it more difficult to use the triggers, which are pretty key in smash. Is there a grip that smash players here would recommend?
Click to expand...
I don't know for the 3DS, but for the 3DS XL I got the cyber grip. It got rid of virtually any hand cramps or discomfort, and the triggers are fine for me but I have kind of big hands. I think at least one moderator got the same thing and didn't like how it has fake trigger rests for your middle fingers, but I don't know if it's a preference thing or a hand size thing. I always press the triggers with my index fingers.
 
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