Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

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MrSaturn99 said:
I like how Bowser now has a dash that actually makes sense.
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People would often tell me Ridley walking or running would look too awkward and wouldn't work for being playable. I would often point them towards Bowser's Melee/Brawl "run".

At first I thought Bowser punching and kicking like that took away from his animalistic nature. Then I thought to myself, he aint that animalistic. He isn't like Ridley or Charizard. Those punches and kicks suit him well. When he does his fair(forward air) now those fingers stretch out and the claws really look brutal now! I say not having a claw swipe for his jabs really highlights his aerials. I will say though I like low claw swipe instead of low punches though.
 
Ryce said:
I'd wager quite a lot of people do.
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Again, Samus can't even charge her beam in midair. She's already pretty unlike the source material.

Bombs exploding on contact makes for a more fun character, so in this case I'd be more happy with them ignoring the source maetrial.

RomanceDawn said:
People would often tell me Ridley walking or running would look too awkward and wouldn't work for being playable. I would often point them towards Bowser's Melee/Brawl "run".
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There's also the fact that, you know, he walks in several Metroid games.
 
Kouichi said:
I did. The vibe I got from your post is that the source material isn't important at all. You used Captain Falcon as an example and even continued ridicule people who think source material is important in determining how a character plays

If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.



The bow blades were certainly unique, but three of his special moves were based off his game.

I'm not saying every single aspect needs to be taken form the source material! Perhaps Kartsicles agrees with that and I misinterpreted him.
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Mr. Smiley said:
I'm pretty sure Brawl was in context of that quote. But is that even fair in the discussion of characters who've had more than enough material to work with beforehand?

Not that it even matters in Karsticles' argument.
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The explicit context was whether Samus' bombs should explode on a timer because they do in the source material. That was what my comment was in response to. It is less fun and less useful for them to be on a timer in Smash. Hence, source material be damned.

ShockingAlberto said:
Bowser is a home owner and has a son

People just want to see him as an animal
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Et tu, Alberto?

You are right. I want my draconic beast to play with. This game lacks truly fearsome creatures, and now Bowser feels more...human. No thank you.
 
Troubled Bat said:
Who wants to be my Popo? :3

sleepingpoporqjo1.png
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Might go with this once my bet is over, unless I can get a sleeping Ness from that picture instead
 
I think Bowser looks better but I also am one of the people that believes Smash should hew as close to the source material as possible. Sometimes it doesn't, but that doesn't provide carte blanche for everyone to just be whatever. Samus has more playstyle/source material problems than just her bombs.

I feel like Bowser should mostly be based around M&L3.
 
Karsticles said:
The explicit context was whether Samus' bombs should explode on a timer because they do in the source material. That was what my comment was in response to. It is less fun and less useful for them to be on a timer in Smash. Hence, source material be damned.
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No no, I was talking about the Avatar Quote on the guy with the Pit avatar and how, in Brawl, many of his moves were deviations since there wasn't much to go off of.

And honestly, I can agree with your view. I remember Viewtiful Joe in MvC being rather boring to play as with his slow walk speed and no dash, just for the sake of reference or how Jill from MvC2 was thrown away on RE5 Jill. I prefer New Bowser over the old one, but I see where you're coming from.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
I think Bowser looks better but I also am one of the people that believes Smash should hew as close to the source material as possible. Sometimes it doesn't, but that doesn't provide carte blanche for everyone to just be whatever. Samus has more playstyle/source material problems than just her bombs.

I feel like Bowser should mostly be based around M&L3.
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He'd be my favorite character ever with this much.
 
Negator said:
Is it bad that I'm already hoping that Smash 4 will have a Project M style mod? Watching some Project M matches right now and I just can't help but feel like Smash 4 is going to be disappointing.
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I hope it does because it might stop a whole group of people from constantly whining, that, and the fact I like PM. I think it's better than Melee too. Or at least more fun to me if we're taking recently.

Unfair to compare to any of the vanilla Smash games though. I tend to separate the modding community from the base Smash community. Outside of people who are into both, one is much different than the other.
 
RomanceDawn said:
People would often tell me Ridley walking or running would look too awkward and wouldn't work for being playable. I would often point them towards Bowser's Melee/Brawl "run".
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LOL, well, Ridley naysayers would probably hate it anyway, but I guess it could still be done regardless of their opinion.*

*including my own D:

And while I disagree with Karsticles' opinion on the new Bowser...

Karsticles said:
Who gives a fuck about source material? Captain Falcon can't do anything but drive a car.
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This. I love it when a character's moveset references their source games, but I also dig Sakurai's creative takes on characters, whether it be molding Luigi as a "dreamy comical poster boy" or Captain Falcon as a macho, flame-channeling superhero. Having both keeps things fresh as opposed to just strictly adhering to source material. It's why I hate shitty suggestions like cutting Lucas just because he's not designed around his Mother 3 movepool.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
I think Bowser looks better but I also am one of the people that believes Smash should hew as close to the source material as possible. Sometimes it doesn't, but that doesn't provide carte blanche for everyone to just be whatever. Samus has more playstyle/source material problems than just her bombs.

I feel like Bowser should mostly be based around M&L3.
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You mean like Samus' explosive flamethrower thing, seeking missiles, and power up laser cannon? She would be pretty boring without two of those things, and IMO she's only really interesting when she has missiles, the cannon, and the bombs. Then she's extremely fun to play.

I don't know anything about M&L3 Bowser, and would love to be educated. My bias is undoubtedly toward SM64, though.

I also loved Brawl Bowser's roar.

Mr. Smiley said:
No no, I was talking about the Avatar Quote on the guy with the Pit avatar and how, in Brawl, many of his moves were deviations since there wasn't much to go off of.

And honestly, I can agree with your view. I remember Viewtiful Joe in MvC being rather boring to play as with his slow walk speed and no dash, just for the sake of reference or how Jill from MvC2 was thrown away on RE5 Jill. I prefer New Bowser over the old one, but I see where you're coming from.
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Hmm? Viewtiful Joe is a blast to play as, but you play him airborne. Check out matches with Dieminion and Kusoru. You are right that he doesn't play much like the source material, though.

ShockingAlberto said:
For the record, I think Bowser's grab was hilariously appropriate, because his main villainous maneuver in games was to just show up and snatch things.
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I love his command grab; it's more about the general aesthetic for me. We have a roster with so many human characters running around with punches and kicks. Why did Bowser have to become more humanized, and have some of his shell and claw attacks changed to punches and kicks? It's just a sad aesthetic change for me. I usually only play non-human or semi-human characters that are villains, so my options are pretty limited. It's not like most of the happy folks are going to main Bowser anyway. He fit a niche for people like me with particular tastes, then he got watered down.
 
L~A said:
Yeah, there won't be any character revealed tomorrow... why would they even reveal it at the WHF? It's a purely Japanese-centric event, that's not covered by any international website or anything. And I don't remember being any game-related announcement there in the past either.

I'd love to eat crow, but nah, not getting hyped on this one. Sakurai would at least have teased it on Miiverse or something.
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They did reveal a character through live blogging at a press only conference.
 
Karsticles said:
The explicit context was whether Samus' bombs should explode on a timer because they do in the source material. That was what my comment was in response to. It is less fun and less useful for them to be on a timer in Smash. Hence, source material be damned.
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I understand. Changing certain things for practicality certainly makes sense. After all, Pit's arrows working like the NES game would be awful, haha

I still regard source material as the most important source for creating a moveset, but it's obvious that it can't be perfect. I certainly believe that the new Bowser changing to match the source material is better overall if we're talking from an aesthetic standpoint instead of a practical one. Mega Man and Villager are the perfect examples to show just how great characters can be when they focus so much on their source.
 
Karsticles said:
I love his command grab; it's more about the general aesthetic for me. We have a roster with so many human characters running around with punches and kicks. Why did Bowser have to become more humanized, and have some of his shell and claw attacks changed to punches and kicks? It's just a sad aesthetic change for me. I usually only play non-human or semi-human characters that are villains, so my options are pretty limited. It's not like most of the happy folks are going to main Bowser anyway. He fit a niche for people like me with particular tastes, then he got watered down.
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You're in a small minority with this opinion and are most likely wrong about people not going to main Bowser after these changes.

As for being watered down, I'm not entirely sure and won't judge completely till I play the final game, but I do think he has been buffed.

You should watch or play Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story. Bowser's whole stance and ferocity in SSB4 reminds me of him there.
 
Kouichi said:
I understand. Changing certain things for practicality certainly makes sense. After all, Pit's arrows working like the NES game would be awful, haha

I still regard source material as the most important source for creating a moveset, but it's obvious that it can't be perfect. I certainly believe that the new Bowser changing to match the source material is better overall if we're talking from an aesthetic standpoint instead of a practical one. Mega Man and Villager are the perfect examples to show just how great characters can be when they focus so much on their source.
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There's a line to be drawn here.

Source material is good when it serves as moveset inspiration.
Source material is bad when it limits moveset mechanics.

Example of source material inspiration: Pit has a bow and arrow in his NES game, so he gets one in Brawl.

Example of source material limiting mechanics: if Pit couldn't aim his bow, and it fired at a slow rate like in the source material.

Example of the happy compromise: Pit having a bow with an aimable arrow shot to make him more interesting.

Samus is an example of this situation gone wrong. Her bombs are on a timer in the game, so now they have to be in Brawl, too? No no no, that's no good.

In Bowser's case, it's just cooler aesthetically for this big dragon turtle to swipe at you with claws and whack his shell around than it is to punch people in the face.

DaBoss said:
You're in a small minority with this opinion and are most likely wrong about people not going to main Bowser after these changes.

As for being watered down, I'm not entirely sure and won't judge completely till I play the final game, but I do think he has been buffed.

You should watch or play Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story. Bowser's whole stance and ferocity in SSB4 reminds me of him there.
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Just to be clear, I didn't say that people who main Bowser will drop him. I said that I bet most of the folks who are happy with the changes don't main him anyway, so their opinion is only marginally important. It's important when changes make someone drop a character.

My comments about Bowser are purely aesthetic in nature. I haven't talked at all about how good he is in this game or others.

If you have a Youtube segment about M&L3, I'd gladly watch it, but an entire game is a bit much. Again, it's not about whether he's close to the source material. I actually feel like, based on what I've read here, you didn't take the time to understand my position on this at all, since all I'm doing it correcting your misconceptions.
 
Karsticles said:
You mean like Samus' explosive flamethrower thing, seeking missiles, and power up laser cannon? She would be pretty boring without two of those things, and IMO she's only really interesting when she has missiles, the cannon, and the bombs. Then she's extremely fun to play.
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Ironically, seeking missiles are only accurate in hind sight; Metroid Prime was released after Melee. She even had a (sucky) flamethrower in that game.
 
Toxi said:
Ironically, seeking missiles are only accurate in hind sight; Metroid Prime was released after Melee. She even had a (sucky) flamethrower in that game.
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Well there you go, I learned something new. I've never played the Prime games for more than 10 minutes. I prefer my Metroid 2D
 
Karsticles said:
There's a line to be drawn here.

Source material is good when it serves as moveset inspiration.
Source material is bad when it limits moveset mechanics.
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Seems like Bowser's changes manage to be good in both cases. From what I understand, these new moves have also buffed him overall.

I understand that your opinion on Bowser is based on aesthetics, but improving the character mechanically by taking inspiration from the source material would be the best case scenario.
 
I didn't say people will drop him. I was saying that more people will main him after these changes since it seems he will be easier to learn and control.

If more people are going to end up maiming the character, then losing a few people is a fair exchange, IMO. Not many people may like this stance, but I think making a character more people enjoy using is more important.

I did misunderstand the watered down comment though. If you look at his punches, they are pretty fast and seem much stronger than claw swipes. As for the back air change, while I think another dropkick is a bit lame, it seems much better than that thing he used to have with his shell. It was so bad and had so much landing lag.

The new neutral air seems to have a bigger hitbox as well. I think this all ties aesthetic and gameplay changes together.

As for gameplay of Bowser's Inside Story, I would link you some but I'm on a phone. You can just find any Bowser battle (giant or not).
 
Karsticles said:
Just to be clear, I didn't say that people who main Bowser will drop him. I said that I bet most of the folks who are happy with the changes don't main him anyway, so their opinion is only marginally important. It's important when changes make someone drop a character.
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Only because most people who played the game period didn't main Bowser. That argument is weird.

If you said most people who mained Bowser don't like the changes, that would make more sense, but even that is probably untrue. Check out the Bowser section on SmashBoards.
 
Kouichi said:
Seems like Bowser's changes manage to be good in both cases. From what I understand, these new moves have also buffed him overall.

I understand that your opinion on Bowser is based on aesthetics, but improving the character mechanically by taking inspiration from the source material would be the best case scenario.
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The changes are purely aesthetic, so nothing else can be discussed. Any buffs to him are in the frame data, and not a direct result of the aesthetic changes.

DaBoss said:
I didn't say people will drop him. I was saying that more people will main him after these changes since it seems he will be easier to learn and control.

If more people are going to end up maiming the character, then losing a few people is a fair exchange, IMO. Not many people may like this stance, but I think making a character more people enjoy using is more important.

I did misunderstand the watered down comment though. If you look at his punches, they are pretty fast and seem much stronger than claw swipes. As for the back air change, while I think another dropkick is a bit lame, it seems much better than that thing he used to have with his shell. It was so bad and had so much landing lag.

The new neutral air seems to have a bigger hitbox as well. I think this all ties aesthetic and gameplay changes together.

As for gameplay of Bowser's Inside Story, I would link you some but I'm on a phone. You can just find any Bowser battle (giant or not).
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You can make the claw swipes as strong as the punches. It's not like changing a claw swipe to a punch makes a move better. That's a silly argument and completely unrelated to the actual animation change. You can give anything a bigger hitbox or better frame data. It's great that he is getting better, but that is 100% unrelated to the aesthetics.

The only reason we might get more Bowser players is that he is looking to be better, and people are fickle. You can add more punchy and kicky moves to any character. It's a shame that his aesthetics aren't be used to the fullest.

JB-the-Hunter said:
Everyone except for you
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Another person who doesn't read.
 
JB-the-Hunter said:
Only because most people who played the game period didn't main Bowser. That argument is weird.

If you said most people who mained Bowser don't like the changes, that would make more sense, but even that is probably untrue. Check out the Bowser section on SmashBoards.
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Yeah I was about to post that people at Smashboards are excited for his change in appearance.
 
Qurupeke said:
I can't say I really dislike any of them but I like the new Bowser way more than the Melee one. I'll never understand why they made him like that in the previous installments...
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It's amazing how this, "everything from Melee is better" thing still flies. Bowser looked fucking terrible in that game, same with Brawl's. His forward B had that cool scratch effect though, that's one thing Melee Bowser had. I just didn't like the way he moved.
 
SpinDasher said:
It's amazing how this, "everything from Melee is better" thing still flies. Bowser looked fucking terrible in that game, same with Brawl's. His forward B had that cool scratch effect though, that's one thing Melee Bowser had. I just didn't like the way he moved.
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Who is making that argument? I am talking about Brawl Bowser.
 
PadWarrior said:
Yeah I was about to post that people at Smashboards are excited for his change in appearance.
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Well since Bowser was always my second behind Ganondorf I can't help but be excited by how much better he is with his specials, his normal attacks and how he moves.
 
Are people complaining about new bowser? Lemme tell you I would have loved a dumber/different looking Marth if it meant buffs...
 
If it makes you feel any better about those wanting old Bowser back Giga Bowser has the complete Brawl moveset and animations you crave.
 
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