Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 9: F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

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It's either Shulk, Chrom or Chorus Men, most likely Shulk.

There aren't really any guessing games or surprises to be had, thanks to the gematsu leak.
 
Durden77 said:
This thread is a hollow corpse of hype right now.
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That's generally what happens when an unimpressive demo is released and all the surprises that matter have been leaked months, even years in advance.

And then when there is potential for a surprise, someone retweets the announcement and immediately gives away what it's going to be.

The only thing that I'm looking forward to is finding out about more custom moves because they haven't been spoiled already and at least have the potential to add depth to the gameplay.
 
JoeInky said:
That's generally what happens when an unimpressive demo is released and all the surprises that matter have been leaked months, even years in advance.

And then when there is potential for a surprise, someone retweets the announcement and immediately gives away what it's going to be.

The only thing that I'm looking forward to is finding out about more custom moves because they haven't been spoiled already and at least have the potential to add depth to the gameplay.
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Movesets being offline and friends only does kind of suck though.

I wish we could use them in randoms matches too. Ah well!

What about the demo was unimpressive?
 
SuperSah said:
Movesets being offline and friends only does kind of suck though.

I wish we could use them in randoms matches too. Ah well!

What about the demo was unimpressive?
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Competitive play is going to be done in friends lobbies anyway so I'm not too bothered that it's not in randoms, though I'm sure they could have rectified it by just showing the other players what moves you chose if Sakurai is worried about people not being able to use "reliable tactics".

The demo was impressive from a visual standpoint but not from a mechanical one, I was hoping this game would be the one to bridge the competitive and casual gap more, but they seem to be focusing on the competitive aspect outside of the game and not necessarily inside it,things like the broken DI and what not will be fixed I'm sure but it should still have this:

JoeInky said:
OK, I'm just going to give a straight up in depth post about what I (and the competitive community generally) want in this game, what it means for the competitive viability and how this affects the casual player.

Increase the window for dash dancing

Alright, some people have already pointed to videos where characters are "dash dancing" in the current build, but they seem to misunderstand the use of dash dancing and what is happening in the current build.

A dash dance is basically where you just change direction mid dash, simple as that, when you start a dash there's a certain window of opportunity where you can reverse and start dashing in the other direction.
This just gives you more control over your character, it doesn't lock you into an unsafe dash and allows you to play mindgames with the opponent trying to force them to read whether you're going to go straight in with a dash attack/aerial or delay it a bit and react to what they do.

It's literally just pressing the stick in the opposite direction so it's not a complex input and it doesn't offer the character any real physical advantage other than the mind game aspect, so it's not something that is too complicated for the casual gamer and I believe is pretty intuitive honestly.

In the current build, the window where you can change direction is dramatically reduced to the point where you can only do it by staying in the same spot, you travel no actual distance so it's usefulness as a bait is negligible.

Less landing lag

Ok, one of the changes in this game is a general increase in landing lag, I'm completely fine with the increased lag when you do an air dodge, I think that's a great way of stopping people from spamming it so much.
But the increased landing lag when you do an aerial attack is something that again limits movement options, because it keeps you stuck on the ground unable to do anything for longer it ruins your ability to followup an attack with another to have some form of combo game, some people say "well that just increases the effectiveness of ground based approaches right? It stops people from spamming aerials too because they're not safe anymore, how is that bad?"

At a very basic level I could see why someone might think this, but 95% of the characters are based around an aerial game and you don't increase the effectiveness of ground-based characters by nerfing everyone elses aerial game, you do it by improving the ground game of those characters (stuff like super armour on moves to stop them being knocked into thee air as much is what helps, see P:M bowser).

There are quite a few people then that have been asking for some form of Lag-cancelling (the official term is soft landing), this is where, in melee and 64, you press a button several frames before you land to decrease the amount of landing frames, what this does is increase the viability of offensive approaches rather than giving all the advantage to the person on defense.

Me? I hate L-Cancelling, there is no reason whatsoever to not lag cancel your move and it's an annoying input to time, especially for people like me with slow reactions and bad muscle memory.

So what a lot of people have proposed is to just reduce lag off of aerials in general, you feel less stuck to ground unable to do anything for long periods of time but I generally want something different that would improve the combo game but also give more opportunities for a punish game.
A good balance would be to make moves have less landing lag if you connect with either a player or a shield, but if you miss the attack because the other player dodges, then you get the increased lag that can lead to a punish, aerial characters get to keep their combo game but they still have risk if they just constantly try to short hop aerial you all the time.

Momentum conservation
Ever wondered why captain falcon sucked in brawl despite having buffs? This is the reason (as well as no L-Cancelling, but this hurt more I think).
In melee, if you ran and jumped, as opposed to jumping from a stand still, you jumped further due to the conservation of momentum, it makes the game more fluid and just makes more sense in general, they removed this in brawl so you always just jumped the same distance regardless of your speed.
It allows characters based around being fast to actually make more use out of that speed and doesn't require any extra inputs or anything, it's just something that makes sense.

I think those are just the basics, there's a few other things I've forgotten that certain people want and certain people don't (I've probably forgotten at least 1 actually important one), but this is what a lot of people consider necessary to make smash 4 really good as a competitive game.
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It's annoying because for every one thing they do (faster movement speed + falling speed, revamped ledge mechanics to prevent stalling and adding non-cancellable hitstun back into the game), there's always two more steps back (higher end lag on throws to prevent chain grabs but ends up ruining throw combos, increased end lag on some aerials to prevent combos, no dash dancing, still no momentum conservation and other things that give the gameplay a bit more fluidity, nerfs to certain projectiles making the moves practically useless and no crouch cancelling dashes except for if you're bowser for some strange reason).


I'm still somewhat hopeful but much, much less so than I was before E3, probably my own fault for getting so hyped at hearing that the game would be between melee and brawl and not thinking that that could mean it was closer to brawl than melee.
 
Just thought I'd mention this for UK SmashGAF (as small as we are), ShopTo has the Wii U Smash plus a Gamecube controller for £52.85. Which isn't that bad of a price to be honest if you consider that Smash alone will be £40-£45 at most online retailers so a GC controller for £8-£13 isn't bad. Can't link it though due to the site being banned.

It also has a placeholder release date of 21/11/14 (or 11/21/14 for the MM/DD/YY format) which I think will be the release date anyway.
 
MasterBalls said:
Well, I mean... Looked really fun to me!
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It does look fun, just not "I want to play this game every week and go to tournaments for the next 10 years" fun.

A bittersweet kind of fun.

Son Of D said:
Just thought I'd mention this for UK SmashGAF (as small as we are), ShopTo has the Wii U Smash plus a Gamecube controller for £52.85. Which isn't that bad of a price to be honest if you consider that Smash alone will be £40-£45 at most online retailers so a GC controller for £8-£13 isn't bad. Can't link it though due to the site being banned.
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ShopTo also has Amiibos listed as £12.85, which is a bit steep if you ask me.


Oh, it also says the release date is the 21st of November for sm4sh.
 
Neoriceisgood said:
Cause of Brawl.
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lol, I'm not sure if it was intuitional or not. :)

For people who are not aware of Brawl Demo, the reception of Brawl Demo were met with very positive reactions from pro players, etc. Now you can see that most of pro players don't approved Brawl because a lot of things got changed.
 
Boss Doggie said:
Why are people judging the competitive output of Smash 4 from a fucking demo?!
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Because that's all we have to judge it off of so far and a lot of eople still remember what happened with the Brawl demo.

For all we know the game could get worse when it finally releases and be much more like brawl than it is now, but that's a worst case scenario that hopefully isn't going to happen.
 
MasterBalls said:
Actually playing it yourself. Insane, I'm aware.
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Well it just so happens that, for some of us, actually playing it ourselves is impossible and all we have to go off of is the impressions from people who have got their hands on it.

And we've had so many smash bros. games over the years that even without impressions or playing it you can tell what certain aspects of the games are like just by watching the gigantic amount of footage that came out of E3, it's not rocket science.
 
I hope they change a few things in the demo solely to throw a curveball at those overanalyzing it and using it as a benchmark for the final release of the product.
 
MagiusNecros said:
I hope they change a few things in the demo solely to throw a curveball at those overanalyzing it and using it as a benchmark for the final release of the product.
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I hope they change a few things from the demo as well, because at least then there would be some sense of actually listening to what people are saying if it fixes some of our issues with the game.

But we all know how rare it is for a game to change for the better between demo and release.
 
MagiusNecros said:
I hope they change a few things in the demo solely to throw a curveball at those overanalyzing it and using it as a benchmark for the final release of the product.
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But they will change things. Sakurai has said many times things are not final so I have no idea why people keep treating it as if it final.
 
SuperSah said:
Cannot wait for mass disappointment come launch day.
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See, this is why I dislike you, you actively want people to be disappointed with a game just because they want it to live up to it's potential, I'll never get your opinion on this because it seems like you do it more out of spite than for any real kind of reason.


MagiusNecros said:
Smash Bros 4: The Bowsering

I really want to play as the new and improved Bowser again. So good.
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Why would anyone be disappointed with bowser though? I don't get what relevance that has to SuperSah's post.

In his current state he's probably closer to being a melee character and actually has crouch cancelling, unlike the rest of the cast for seemingly no reason.

I seem to remember him having a good Up-B OOS again as well, but I haven't watched the sm4sh videos from VGBC in a while.

BGBW said:
But they will change things. Sakurai has said many times things are not final so I have no idea why people keep treating it as if it final.
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Some people are scared of them changing things for the worse and not necessarily making them better, and it's not as if they're going to make large scale changes to a game that has a few months left in development, if that.
 
MagiusNecros said:
I hope they change a few things in the demo solely to throw a curveball at those overanalyzing it and using it as a benchmark for the final release of the product.
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They changed things in the Brawl demo a lot. Meta Knogjt was still said to be a really great character in the brawl demo lol. It's a good indicator.
 
JoeInky said:
Why would anyone be disappointed with bowser though? I don't get what relevance that has to SuperSah's post.

In his current state he's probably closer to being a melee character and actually has crouch cancelling, unlike the rest of the cast for seemingly no reason.

I seem to remember him having a good Up-B OOS again as well, but I haven't watched the sm4sh videos from VGBC in a while.
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Basically saying I can't get disappointed even if they kept Ganondorf the same.
 
IntelliHeath said:
I could see that kind of reactions for 3DS. Ya know people always are not happy with what they get.
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I wouldn't just be happy if we got dash cancing, crouch cancelling and reduced landing lag, I'd be fucking chuffed.


MagiusNecros said:
Basically saying I can't get disappointed even if they kept Ganondorf the same.
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If they kept ganondorf the same as he was in brawl, you should be disappointed, he was shit in brawl.
 
I'm sure glad every demo I've ever played of every video game ever was exactly like the full retail version of the game.

Glitches and all!

Lord people need to stop and read their posts sometimes.
 
SliceSabre said:
I'm sure glad every demo I've ever played of every video games ever was exactly like the full retail version of the game.

Glitches and all!

Lord people need to stop and read their posts sometimes.
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No dash dancing and increased landing lag aren't glitches and could be seen as completely intentional design decisions.

The only thing that we're not sure about that people aren't complaining as much about are the broken DI and crouch cancelling.


But bowser for some strange reason can actually crouch cancel, so we have no idea if it's something they were in the process of adding to characters or just an error in bowser that they're going to remove, so you see less complaining about that just because people are confused about what is happening.


MagiusNecros said:
Tell me about it. ;_;
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Note that I'm not talking about his moveset though, which I'm assuming is what you were meaning, just the way he transitioned to brawl.

I want his moveset to stay mostly the same because I love it, the only thing I want is a different recovery, global changes like the crouch cancelling, reduced landing lag and dash dancing and for them to let you cancel his flame choke into an up throw instead of making it something that can always let your opponent force you to SD instead of recover.
 
JoeInky said:
No dash dancing and increased landing lag aren't glitches and could be seen as completely intentional design decisions.

The only thing that we're not sure about that people aren't complaining as much about are the broken DI and crouch cancelling.


But bowser for some strange reason can actually crouch cancel, so we have no idea if it's something they were in the process of adding to characters or just an error in bowser that they're going to remove, so you see less complaining about that just because people are confused about what is happening.
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Yea because its a demo and not a complete representation of the full product. I mean my God Sakurai himself was afraid the demo would crash during the invitational.
 
SliceSabre said:
Yea because its a demo and not a complete representation of the full product. I mean my God Sakurai himself was afraid the demo would crash during the invitational.
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But it's still a representation of the product, complete or not.

How many times have you been worried by the game mechanics in a demo only a few months before release and then been pleasantly surprised that they improved them by the final release?
 
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