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[FindMyFarms]

Max, if it's a lk buttslam, and you blocked the first hit then backdash and punish. All other versions you block the first hit, then focus when honda's at peak (so you're facing the right direction) and you get a free crumple. Ex will obviously put him too far away, but that costs bar.

The only tricky thing is making sure you don't focus a reversaled buttslam since both hits break armor on that :/

 

[Spiderjericho]

^^^Congrats on your latest tourney win. I look forward to seeing you putting peeps on blast at Final Round.

 

[FindMyFarms]

^^^Congrats on your latest tourney win. I look forward to seeing you putting peeps on blast at Final Round.

Yo thanks man! After gettin mad salty for getting 5th at AB my goal was to win every Tx tourney between then and final round. I'm 5-0 in that regard so far, and my confidence is absolutely soaring, I'm really hoping to be on fire when I hit up FR so I can make a big splash.

Can't wait for the GAF meetup!

 

[Spiderjericho]

Are you still maining Boxer/Cammy?

Dude, I'd be such a hyped stream monster if you blew up the Empire, GG, EG, GI JOE and whoever.

 

[Satyamdas]

Honestly if only ex-buttslam hits twice, then I didn't know that. All I know is that I'm tired of trying to focus it when I know it's coming and getting hit twice by the move. Also, it is unpunishable by 90% of the cast. It's -2 unless you choose to do the most unsafe version (-3) and there's really no point in doing that.

Bison does have safe lk scissors. It's pretty good, but it's not super amazing. At least if someone tries to randomly throw it out, it's easily stuffed. It doesn't have startup invincibility like buttslam or lp headbutt. It IS completely safe, though. But it doesn't do a lot of damage anyway.

Safe PC without meter? Let's not even talk about how shitty regular PC is. Let me know when anyone decent does regular PC without a setup for it. The headstomp followup is very situational, can be focused or evaded, and can usually just be stuffed by jump back roundhouse.

And pianoing hands with Honda isn't hard at all. Considering risk vs. reward, I'd much rather have Honda hands than Bison cr. short pressure. Honda jab-HHS-Super does ~500 damage. Bison's main B&B (cr. lk, cr. lk, cr. lk xx scissors) does less damage than his throw.

Your original post was comparing the difficulty of execution of a move to how safe it is, implying that difficult moves should be safer than easy ones. Now you're comparing difficulty to damage output, and it still doesn't make any sense. Pianoing hands might not be hard, but neither is doing a Sonic Boom motion. And whether you use it or not, regular psycho crusher is still a safe move that breaks armor, just like scissors does. So while you're complaining about Honda, at least you can use focus to deal with Buttslams. Using focus against Bison at all is a huge no-no.

I wasn't trying to get into a dick-measuring contest between Honda and Bison, it just seemed weird to me that Buttslam of all things is giving you so much trouble. And you complaining of how easy to execute and safe it is was kinda ironic seeing that you play Bison.

 

[Axis]

Honestly if only ex-buttslam hits twice, then I didn't know that. All I know is that I'm tired of trying to focus it when I know it's coming and getting hit twice by the move. Also, it is unpunishable by 90% of the cast. It's -2 unless you choose to do the most unsafe version (-3) and there's really no point in doing that.

backdash and sweep, it's not that hard.

Bison does have safe lk scissors. It's pretty good, but it's not super amazing. At least if someone tries to randomly throw it out, it's easily stuffed. It doesn't have startup invincibility like buttslam or lp headbutt. It IS completely safe, though. But it doesn't do a lot of damage anyway.

safe is safe. 2 reps is generally safe on most chars until you're pushed back...doesn't need to do a lot of damage when there's almost no recourse for doing it

Safe PC without meter? Let's not even talk about how shitty regular PC is. Let me know when anyone decent does regular PC without a setup for it. The headstomp followup is very situational, can be focused or evaded, and can usually just be stuffed by jump back roundhouse.

i see a lot of good bisons use max range non-ex PC. headstomp followup is definitely focusable but you're leaving out being able to make someone focus the wrong direction at will pretty much...and late EX can blow that up provided they don't focus->backdash

And pianoing hands with Honda isn't hard at all. Considering risk vs. reward, I'd much rather have Honda hands than Bison cr. short pressure. Honda jab-HHS-Super does ~500 damage. Bison's main B&B (cr. lk, cr. lk, cr. lk xx scissors) does less damage than his throw.

of course you would...but bison doesn't need to do that much damage...he's MORE than capable as it stands so i don't really see the comparison between the two.

Yo thanks man! After gettin mad salty for getting 5th at AB my goal was to win every Tx tourney between then and final round. I'm 5-0 in that regard so far, and my confidence is absolutely soaring, I'm really hoping to be on fire when I hit up FR so I can make a big splash.

Can't wait for the GAF meetup!

good stuff on getting first; have to run those cammy mirrors at FR

 

[Oichi]

According to various people, the Makoto loop can only be done 3 times (FA lvl 2 -> Dash -> Lvl 2 -> Dash -> Lvl 2, finish)

Arcade Edition has been saved?

 

[sixteen-bit]

According to various people, the Makoto loop can only be done 3 times (FA lvl 2 -> Dash -> Lvl 2 -> Dash -> Lvl 2, finish)

Arcade Edition has been saved?

bububu V-Ryu said 16

 

[SmokeMaxX]

And whether you use it or not, regular psycho crusher is still a safe move that breaks armor, just like scissors does.

Here's the thing though. It isn't safe.
Light punch PC is -8 on block.
Medium punch PC is -14 on block.
Heavy punch PC is -17 on block.
EX is -16 on block.

Only EX has invincibility and they all have 14 frames of startup. I honestly don't know which Bisons you guys are watching, but regular PC is garbage unless used very specifically (usually to crossup on opponent knockdown). Go ahead and try to reaction psycho crusher on someone good using a focus attack and let me know how far that gets you. Also, scissors doesn't break armor.

 

[Threi]

14f startup and -8 on block?

lp psycho crusher is actually better than i thought lol

 

[Satyamdas]

Dude, those frame numbers are from doing Psycho Crusher at point blank range, and is the only way they are unsafe. Even a mediocre scrub Bison knows that if you space them properly, they are at worst even on block, and then the person has to guess between throw, cr.lk, another PC, etc.

Scissors are 2 hits, dude, so unless you get super lucky and are able to dash away from the second hit, your focus will be blown up. And if you aren't Chun or Rose, you are likely getting hit.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Dude, those frame numbers are from doing Psycho Crusher at point blank range, and is the only way they are unsafe. Even a mediocre scrub Bison knows that if you space them properly, they are at worst even on block, and then the person has to guess between throw, cr.lk, another PC, etc.

Scissors are 2 hits, dude, so unless you get super lucky and are able to dash away from the second hit, your focus will be blown up. And if you aren't Chun or Rose, you are likely getting hit.

They have 14 frames of startup, zero invincibility, shitty hitboxes, and the only way to make them safe is to hit with JUST THE TIP. Considering how slow they are (both startup and travel speed), it's quite reasonable to expect the opponent to either walk into or out of "perfect range" for the psycho crusher to hit just the tip. If you walk backwards, that's free sweep where Bison gets knocked down (a place he doesn't want to be). If you walk forwards, that's a free huge punish. And even perfectly spaced, lp PC is positive on block, mp PC is even on block, and hp PC is negative on block. How about this: how about you play Bison on a tournament level and occasionally use PC and let me know how well it works for you? Even lp PC from max range will get hit by DP FADC Ultra, Rog headbutt into Ultra, Honda ex-headbutt, etc.

Also, scissors are 2 hits, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to deal with empty scissor kicks at mid screen. In the corner, it's a different story, but you should really just be blocking in the corner against them anyway. At mid screen, if you stay at the distance where only Bison's second hit will hit, you can really use focus without any negative consequences. Bison doesn't have a normal that can deal with it. The second hit of scissor kick will get crumpled. Heavily scissor kicks or PCs will get punished if you just focus bait and backdash. You could try dash-throw, but that's a risk in and of itself. Also, let's not forget that every character in the game has several moves that just plain stuff empty scissor kicks. Bison's scissor kicks are good AND scary, but let's not forget that a large part of the threat comes from the 3 frame short that precedes the scissor kick.

 

[Axis]

They have 14 frames of startup, zero invincibility, shitty hitboxes, and the only way to make them safe is to hit with JUST THE TIP. Considering how slow they are (both startup and travel speed), it's quite reasonable to expect the opponent to either walk into or out of "perfect range" for the psycho crusher to hit just the tip. If you walk backwards, that's free sweep where Bison gets knocked down (a place he doesn't want to be). If you walk forwards, that's a free huge punish. And even perfectly spaced, lp PC is positive on block, mp PC is even on block, and hp PC is negative on block. How about this: how about you play Bison on a tournament level and occasionally use PC and let me know how well it works for you? Even lp PC from max range will get hit by DP FADC Ultra, Rog headbutt into Ultra, Honda ex-headbutt, etc.

Also, scissors are 2 hits, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to deal with empty scissor kicks at mid screen. In the corner, it's a different story, but you should really just be blocking in the corner against them anyway. At mid screen, if you stay at the distance where only Bison's second hit will hit, you can really use focus without any negative consequences. Bison doesn't have a normal that can deal with it. The second hit of scissor kick will get crumpled. Heavily scissor kicks or PCs will get punished if you just focus bait and backdash. You could try dash-throw, but that's a risk in and of itself. Also, let's not forget that every character in the game has several moves that just plain stuff empty scissor kicks. Bison's scissor kicks are good AND scary, but let's not forget that a large part of the threat comes from the 3 frame short that precedes the scissor kick.

hey look, backdash->sweep...same way to deal with honda butt slam


edit: i'm free to typing

 

[Satyamdas]

*Bison Operations Manual*

Man, all I was trying to say is that Buttslam spam isn't THAT hard to deal with.

And I really fail to see the point of focusing at mid screen, like, ever.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

hey look, backdash->sweep...same way to deal with bison butt slam

I'll have to test this out in training mode, but having a 15 frame sweep that's -10 on block doesn't help matters.

And Honda butt slam is hard to deal with because it's hard enough for Bison to deal with Honda when he has meter. Do I need to be scared of all of his other wake-up options too? The weakness of buttslam is that it's easily focused, so it doesn't need to be extremely punishable. Used as a reversal, it automatically breaks armor. It's just annoying as hell trying to pressure Honda on his wakeup or even trying to cross him up when he has no meter and getting wake-up buttslammed.

 

[Satyamdas]

I'll have to test this out in training mode, but having a 15 frame sweep that's -10 on block doesn't help matters.

And Honda butt slam is hard to deal with because it's hard enough for Bison to deal with Honda when he has meter. Do I need to be scared of all of his other wake-up options too? The weakness of buttslam is that it's easily focused, so it doesn't need to be extremely punishable. Used as a reversal, it automatically breaks armor. It's just annoying as hell trying to pressure Honda on his wakeup or even trying to cross him up when he has no meter and getting wake-up buttslammed.

Oh, so it's kind of like when Bison has meter and you have to fear EX PC on his wake-up, and you have to be really careful about your pressure? Or EX Headstomp, or EX Scissors? Hmmm, imagine that. Having to be careful on an opponents wakeup. Sucks that Honda is the only one with this fear mongering potential.

 

[Threi]

if you know hes gunna buttslam why not teleport > hk?

unlike characters with REAL problems, bison has tools to deal with opponents on wakeup.


also: never fucking complain about his sweep again. For the range it has, capcom was VERY generous to make it FADCable.

 

[Axis]

I'll have to test this out in training mode, but having a 15 frame sweep that's -10 on block doesn't help matters.

And Honda butt slam is hard to deal with because it's hard enough for Bison to deal with Honda when he has meter. Do I need to be scared of all of his other wake-up options too? The weakness of buttslam is that it's easily focused, so it doesn't need to be extremely punishable. Used as a reversal, it automatically breaks armor. It's just annoying as hell trying to pressure Honda on his wakeup or even trying to cross him up when he has no meter and getting wake-up buttslammed.

just bait, i've never had an issue with backdash->sweeping or backdash->forward dash->throw to punish them for using it...it becomes necessary at some points when you have them scared to headbutt

 

[HiResDes]

if you know hes gunna buttslam why not teleport > hk?

unlike characters with REAL problems, bison has tools to deal with opponents on wakeup.


also: never fucking complain about his sweep again. For the range it has, capcom was VERY generous to make it FADCable.

Yeah I just learned when applying wheelkick pressure how easy it is to telegraph an incoming uppercut our buttslam and punish with either hk or sometimes with a grab...Leading to a potential psycho crusher cross up on the ground. I feel like I'm getting really good, but I've just been playing people offline as I no longer have Xbox Live Gold.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Oh, so it's kind of like when Bison has meter and you have to fear EX PC on his wake-up, and you have to be really careful about your pressure? Or EX Headstomp, or EX Scissors? Hmmm, imagine that. Having to be careful on an opponents wakeup. Sucks that Honda is the only one with this fear mongering potential.

Not exactly on the same level since the latter two options are easily avoidable and super heavily punishable, while the first option I'd be willing to give to you except Bison has shitty defense (and yes, I know good players can make up for this weakness, but it's still shitty). Also, if you block a buttslam, well you better be a grappler if you want to punish it. If you block an ex-PC, several characters can ultra punish it. But that's besides the point.

The point is that Buttslam is annoying as hell and it's far safer than it should be. If Honda randomly does it on his wakeup and you block it, then you (the person who should get rewarded for the knockdown) is put in a 50/50 where if you pressure you could get hit by Ex-headbutt and if you don't pressure, you just lost the advantage. Of course, either way Honda can throw the Ex-Headbutt out for free and there's nothing really you can do about it whether it hits or you block it.

Also, I'm glad we can now FADC the slide. It doesn't mean I wouldn't rather have a traditional sweep. FADCing slide and Slide-Super are both gimmicks anyway. The former being that you can waste two meters on a guess (which btw is -11 on block if you backdash which I found out after getting raw Ultra'd by Chun trying that maneuver). The latter being that it's ONLY useful for chip kills since sweep knocks down on hit anyway so the super won't juggle.

 

[Kimosabae]

*resubscribing*

 

[Satyamdas]

The point is that Buttslam is annoying as hell and it's far safer than it should be. If Honda randomly does it on his wakeup and you block it, then you (the person who should get rewarded for the knockdown) is put in a 50/50 where if you pressure you could get hit by Ex-headbutt and if you don't pressure, you just lost the advantage. Of course, either way Honda can throw the Ex-Headbutt out for free and there's nothing really you can do about it whether it hits or you block it.

To the first, that can be said about Bison, and even more legitimately.

To the second, throwing out EX Headbutt or EX Buttslam is NOT free. It costs meter. Pay attention to whether the person you are playing likes to throw them out on wakeup, and if applicable bait them out and make them waste meter. If unsure, proceed with caution. I can't believe a Bison player is complaining about a character having a get out of jail free card.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

To the first, that can be said about Bison, and even more legitimately.

To the second, throwing out EX Headbutt or EX Buttslam is NOT free. It costs meter. Pay attention to whether the person you are playing likes to throw them out on wakeup, and if applicable bait them out and make them waste meter. If unsure, proceed with caution. I can't believe a Bison player is complaining about a character having a get out of jail free card.

Buttslam has invincibility, lk scissors doesn't. Buttslam is -2 which is pretty much unpunishable unless you're like one of 3-4 characters in the entire game.

And who's talking about ex-buttslam? Ex-buttslam has the least invincibility. They all hit twice.

And you want to know why it's okay for Bison to have several get out of jail free cards? One, they're not that great anyway. He's good on wakeup because he has several options, not because of any one option in particular. But, more importantly, it's because his defense sucks. I play Honda too and Honda's a tank. He takes damage, he deals damage, and it's near impossible for anyone to get in on him. Bison? Jump in for free all day. If I'm lucky my cr. fp will only get stuffed 50% of the time I use it.

 

[Satyamdas]

Like I said, I was just surprised that Buttslam was giving you so much trouble. When I play Honda it is the move I hope to see most because it is the easiest to deal with. I don't have a dog in the Honda/Bison race, they both rape me for free. I was just amused that a Bison player was complaining so hard about Buttslam being safe, when Bison is probably only 2nd to Rufus as far as being a safe character overall. But now I see that Bison's get out of jail free cards are not that great and his defense sucks, so consider me enlightened and we can close this case.

 

[LakeEarth]

Buttslam isn't too bad, if you think its coming just back off just outside of range and punish it when it comes down. It's one of those moves that own you at first, and you kind of have to figure out how to deal with it. These days I only use EX buttslam as a late crossup punisher.

Also, whoo, 4070pp!

 

[TheSeks]

And just bodied AJ despite the fact I'm playing like shit and haven't played in over two months. For shame, man.

Edit: And don't feel too bad about me winning, that was really laggy and my S. MP, S. MP (air) QCBx2PPP/Last Dread Dust shouldn't have connected. It wouldn't have offline. More proof offline > online.

 

[Papi]

SmokeMaxX is the new AkumaHokoru, who was the new DR2K.

 

[DR2K]

SmokeMaxX is the new AkumaHokoru, who was the new DR2K.

Does that make me the original?

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Psssh, Honda's just a bullshit character in Super. Not unbeatable, but by far the most rage inducing.

 

[EraldoCoil]

Any of ya'll heading to the Fresno Tourney on the 29'th??!?!?

if so, ya'll will be in my neck of the woods, come say hi, i'll buy you a beer!

 

[SUPARSTARX]

Someone translate the new AE blog.

http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/01/18_3002.html

 

[cHaotix8]

Maxx with that S tier theory fighting.

 

[AkumaHokoru]

SmokeMaxX is the new AkumaHokoru, who was the new DR2K.

When you can beat me you can speak freely.

 

[DR2K]

Someone translate the new AE blog.

http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/01/18_3002.html

Going over hitbox changes, and probably addressing some issues. Like removing Cammy.

 

[stabicron7]

Maxx - non ex PC can be useful *even as slow as it is* in moderation if you know the spacing. Especially lp pc, I have caught so many people pressing buttons or just getting thrown by me after a well spaced one. Yes it can get stuffed before it gets to being blocked but you'd be surprised how often I get the "deer in the headlights" reaction from people.

Sure you can't abuse it too much and some characters you probably shouldn't even try it on, but it can be a nice tool on occasion.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Thanks Andre. I'm glad someone's acknowledged my theory fighting abilities. There's so much good competition here in AR for top theory fighter, I gotta keep my skills up.

Maxx - non ex PC can be useful even as slow as it is in moderation if you know the spacing. Especially lp pc, I have caught so many people pressing buttons or just getting thrown by me after a well spaced one. Yes it can get stuffed before it gets to being blocked but you'd be surprised how often I get the "deer in the headlights" reaction from people.

Sure you can't abuse it too much and some characters you probably shouldn't even try it on, but it can be a nice tool on occasion.

You can catch people with it, yes, but it's very rare to catch anyone good with it. They'll either know the setup or they'll have moved so that by the time your lp PC reaches them, it isn't safe on block anymore. Plus if a character with a DPish move sees it coming, it's easy DP on reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of trying to find uses for moves that are apparently useless. I have some setups for the psycho crushers. It's just nearly useless unless you combo into it or have the opponent already knocked down.

 

[Kadey]

I must be the only Bison whom rarely if ever does Psycho crusher. I usually just spam his normals and scissor kick pressure. Only use EX PC as an escape tool.

And I love fighting Honda as Bison.

 

[stabicron7]

I must be the only Bison whom rarely if ever does Psycho crusher. I usually just spam his normals and scissor kick pressure. Only use EX PC as an escape tool.

And I love fighting Honda as Bison.

I was about the only Bison insane enough to actually use ex pc in Vanilla in a vain attempt to go through fireballs *which it could, but the exact timing when it actually could was insane and I got it due to luck more often than not*.

 

[Kadey]

Fatboys got nothing on me!

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Fatboys got nothing on me!

http://a.imagehost.org/0828/BisonH1.gif

Wish I could fight more Honda's like that. Random full screen ex-headbutts and st.fp within cr. mk range.

Unfortunately, Arkansas has a mini-Honda army going on.

 

[Hitokage]

Can't wait for the GAF meetup!

Just bought my badge yesterday.

My goal is simple: Don't embarrass myself.

 

[Threi]

ex pc in vanilla had some messed up properties. invulnerability at first, then none, then super armor, then none again

 

[stabicron7]

ex pc in vanilla had some messed up properties. invulnerability at first, then none, then super armor, then none again

Didn't know it had super armor, wow thats worse than I thought.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

ex pc in vanilla had some messed up properties. invulnerability at first, then none, then super armor, then none again

I was gonna talk about something relating to this, but I didn't hit submit. It's stupid how something that's supposed to act as a projectile (can absorb two projectiles) just flat out loses to Akuma air fireball and Sagat high tiger. I get the air fireball maybe hitting Bison's vulnerable hitbox on his legs, but Sagat's high tiger? What's Capcom's excuse for that one?

 

[Threi]

err wrong termanology on my part

i meant it absorbed a projectile because it was one

I get the air fireball maybe hitting Bison's vulnerable hitbox on his legs, but Sagat's high tiger? What's Capcom's excuse for that one?

Something between "don't get in for free" and "don't break the sagat/bison matchup"

 

[LakeEarth]

It's sad how often I see a Chun pick ultra 2 against my Honda. It's like, shut down his best move or low damage ultra? WEEEE!!!

 

[Threi]

It's sad how often I see a Chun pick ultra 2 against my Honda. It's like, shut down his best move or low damage ultra? WEEEE!!!

So true. I facepalm whenever a chun picks U2 vs DeeJay. That ultra alone tips the scales so heavily in her favor, whenever a chun picks U2 i assume they don't know the matchup at all.


but hey you feel like a badass when you can c.short into ex legs into U2.

 

[Hitokage]

So true. I facepalm whenever a chun picks U2 vs DeeJay. That ultra alone tips the scales so heavily in her favor, whenever a chun picks U2 i assume they don't know the matchup at all.

As in, they don't know DeeJay can throw fireballs.

 

[stabicron7]

As in, they don't know DeeJay can throw fireballs.

Don't think its just that, any dread kick can be U1 punished on block I believe *well lk dread probably can't*. Not sure about his other stuff but guessing probably.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Something between "don't get in for free" and "don't break the sagat/bison matchup"

That's not true and you know it. If Bison wanted to get in for free, he'd use ex-scissors.