Damerman
Member
for the life of me, im trying to figure it out. All i hear is "pie in the sky" in response.
Super Tuesday 2016 |OT| The Final Incursion is a double Incursion (Mar 5-15 contests)
- Thread starter B-Dubs
- Start date
- Status
Black Republican
Member
was watching CNN for a few and they were def' hitting hard on Clinton failing on her message
boiled goose
good with gravy
What is mindblowing is that this is happening in GAF. I mean it's fine to prefer Hillary based on policy or pragmatism or whatever but to apologetically defend the corrupting influence of money in politics is crazy.
I really perhaps naively believed gaf was above such dishonesty and Fanboyism.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Bernie's goals are unrealistic and unobtainable and I feel he'd be an incredibly ineffective president, potentially just one term. If Bernie failed as a president, it could set back progress for awhile, and Bernie just isn't a strong politician at all. Too many times does he have to explain why something stupid he said the previous day didn't mean what it was interpreted to mean, and instead means this. The "all roads lead to wallstreet" thing is annoying as well. Anything wallstreet touches isn't instantly corrupted, so don't try to sell that as a concept. The idea that he'd pick professors instead of actual professionals for certain positions seems really, really wrong.
His plans require a solid majority across the board and a huge wave election and he's just not pulling in the numbers he needs to make that happen. If the political revolution was really happening, the votes wouldn't be what they are now. And without the political revolution to get anything done, you're just left with a husk of a politician with lots of good ideas, but no plans to implement any of them and no willingness to accept half measures. And on the stuff the president actually can do, notably, foreign policy, Sanders flails around just trying to keep his head above water since foreign issues don't really seem to matter to him, despite being one of the major powers of the president.
I also don't like that he prides himself on integrity, consistency and honesty and then turns around and only joins a party because it helps him win the presidency, along with telling young people they can have all this free stuff without properly explaining why they won't actually get any of it. That seems deceptive and very much "politics as usual" despite how much he wants to try and sell himself as being above that.
Our country is not set up to progress quickly. It was designed to move at a gradual pace. I wish it could move faster, I really do, and I like Bernie's ideas, but I just can't support him. For the type of government we have, Hillary is the best choice to actually move the country forward. I trust she'll be able to at least figure something out, considering how much power the Clinton family holds in government. She'll have a ton of political allies to fall back on for help, and she has tons of experience in foreign policy.
Her and Bernie also agree on 90% of issues.
boiled goose
good with gravy
You misunderstand Sanders appeal as is revealed by the "free stuff " framing.
Bernie fans dont unrealistically expect everything he is campaigning for will become reality in 8 years.
They just want a politician who is actually fighting for them, and not catering to outside influences.
All they want is someone who isnt corrupt.
It's hilarious that you somehow twist honesty and integrity into a bad thing. I cant keep up with the mental gymnastics.
Ugh.
You've been hit on this in multiple threads and each time you back down, so I really don't know why you keep repeating it.
WHO is defending the corrupting influence of money in politics?
balladofwindfishes
Member
If I misundstand his message, then he fails at messaging and is a bad politician.
Also I see Facebook posts almost daily with images about how Bernie is going to give free school and forgive my debt and people discussing what they're going to do with the extra money from not paying their loans anymore.
So it's not just me.
And it's not twisting Bernie at all.
You can't say "boo the establishment, it's awful, I hate it. Absolutely disgusting. Oh, but I'm going to join it because I want to be president"
That's not integrity, that's being just like any other politician.
Also I see Facebook posts almost daily with images about how Bernie is going to give free school and forgive my debt and people discussing what they're going to do with the extra money from not paying their loans anymore.
So it's not just me.
And it's not twisting Bernie at all.
You can't say "boo the establishment, it's awful, I hate it. Absolutely disgusting. Oh, but I'm going to join it because I want to be president"
That's not integrity, that's being just like any other politician.
Damerman
Member
I was hurting my brain trying to think of a response to his point, but i could never express it as elequently as this. Agreed.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Yeah.. im sure he wants Bernie to run as an independent right? Hahahaha
Damerman
Member
If you can't see the gaping hole in that "logic", i don't know what to tell you. ITS HIS ONLY PATH TO PRESIDENCY! no one wins as independent. This isnt the first time this happened. Find another qualm bro like his tax or gun stance.
balladofwindfishes
Member
No, I don't. But I also don't want Bernie to pretend he's above politics as usual and turn around and join the establishment because it's convenient for him.
To be fair, I respect Bernie's intelligence enough to think that he knows alot of his proposals are unfeasible in the current political climate. Therefore, if he promises something that he knows he cant do, and says it with a straight face, does that indicate that he possesses honesty and integrity? I genuinely dont know how to feel about this.
I have been running this over in my mind the last week or so and I think Bernie and some of his base playing the moral high ground game only hurts him in the long run. Politics is full of well-intentioned people, and I include both Bernie and Hilary in this group, but no politician is ever clean, so why act like you are?
You call the guy whose literally selling you completely horseshit policies that he knows for a fact can't be passed by the Democrats let alone Congress Honest and full of integrity?!
Uh huh.
Damerman
Member
I don't agreed with the use of that word in this instance.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Then he can't be president and keep his integrity.
If he can't be president without joining the establishment, but hates the establishment, then he just can't be president. It's a choice he had to make. He could do plenty without joining the Democrats and being president.
He chose the establishment for a chance at being president. Like making a deal with the devil.
Damerman
Member
Horseshit policies that work in other modern democracies... Right.
All of which will be challenged in Court.
Europe is not the USA. Bernice's proposals have legal concerns let alone economic costs. It's DOA no matter which way you look at it
So what goals and proposals set by Hiliary (that you obviously know for a fact she will achieve, because you and other Hiliary supporters can see into the future where Bernie didn't do shit as President) do you support?
boiled goose
good with gravy
Hey if Hillary Gaf was saying that her receiving millions of dollars in bribes was a terrible but necessary sacrifice to beat the gop and at least get some progress we would be having an honest and interesting conversation.
Instead I hear that somehow Hillary is above being corrupted for some magical reason.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Wait... so in this silly analogy you instead choose to vote for the devil himself?
This is amazing. A brain hard at work.
Or maybe it's because in reality she isn't owned by anyone? Come on, now. She pissed off her donors in 2007 and publicly rebuked the financial institutions and was still Davy enough to get money from them to donate to her campaign.
Because the reality of campaign donations is much more complex than a simple minded quid pro quo.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yep, I literally meant the devil
Give me a break
Nobody needs to be president. If Senator was as far as Bernie could go without joinging the establishment, then that's the furthest he can go, politically.
Bernie made an exception to his hard stance against corrupt political parties to become president. He feels that being president is more important than keeping consistency in his stance, and that's fine. But then don't sell yourself as being above other politicians morally.
What? The bolded is what Hillary GAF is saying. Nobody is saying that Hillary is superhuman and above being corrupted; what is being said is that Hillary receiving campaign contributions from Wall Street alone is not indicative of that.
Point me to the legislation Hillary has been behind that demonstrates she is in the pocket of the big banks. I've asked you this multiple times and each time you suspiciously go missing from the thread.
Well, America better become a European country cause imo, America being America is the reason why AMerica has been such a slowpoke at most progressive politics.
Damerman
Member
So are the policies horseshit or is congress horseshit? I guess what im saying is stop taking ur frustration out on bernie.
teruterubozu
Member
Bernice? Is that the new "weaker sex" insult from Hillary supporters? Such a weird election.
You mean like marriage equality, marijuana legalization and energy independence?
Yes, because Hillary has a much better chance at reaching her goals. We all know better that she has just as much chance at passing legislation as Bernie considering the Republicans will still hold the House hostage.
Many Hillary supporters are only supporting her (according to their own words) because of more likely win at the GE, as they feel the most important thing right now is to ensure liberal Supreme Court Justices. It is not even because they think she will pass legislation, when Obama tried his best to do so and failing, even with large compromises and a desire for bipartisan approach.
Also.. why do Hillary supporters have a belief that he would lose to the GOP candidates? Whether it is Bernie or Hillary, neither of them would lose to the current GOP candidates. They are alienating all minority groups and they can't win with just white votes now.
You already know how people interpret words.. They will interpret it the way they want to, hence many politicians end up needing to clarify their words. Granted the wordings definitely could of been better.
This is a primary, not a general election. As far as I know, most people are saying turnover for primaries do not necessarily mean he will not do well with turnover during the GE.
I will concede he is quite naive on foreign policy, but that takes a back-step for me, improving U.S is my top priority and should be for most as we can't keep ignoring it or kicking it down the road.
Your wording here is pretty bad. He didn't choose the democratic party because it will "help him" win the presidency, he went democrat because it is the only way he would have a chance at the presidency. That is just the way our two party system is set up, 3rd parties have no shot at it currently.
He isn't being deceptive on running on the idea of a more liberal U.S. Being deceptive would be to say that and then not try to implement those ideas. Shows how different people's mindset is on this based on who they want to win.
Democratic-type countries itself do not progress quickly, but you are lying to yourself if you think it can not move faster than it is, because it already proven it could and have. Stop with the BS "it needs to be incremental steps" all the time idea please. U.S would never have reached what it have in such short time-span if that was the case.
Hillary is your best choice to move the country forward. Thank you.
gutter_trash
Banned
Hahaha I think he has an Apple device that auto-corrects
uncelestial
Member
Yes you can, and I am glad someone is.
"I agree with Bernie but his goals are unrealistic" is such a dumb position to hold. Don't worry, the Republicans will take care of dumbing down your hopes for you. Your job is to vote for someone who will fight for your ideas. That's your one job. The system of checks and balances will numb out a lot of Bernie's ambitious goals, yes, but having someone willing to fight for those ideas in the first place is step 1.
teruterubozu
Member
My Apple device is fine with "Bernie's".
balladofwindfishes
Member
Just don't turn around and pretend you're more than a regular politician looking to move their career ahead by any means then.
brainchild
Banned
Just when I thought DWS couldn't get any worse. Seriously, WTF?!
because of polls like this?
RNC and SuperPACs are going to spend nearly $1 billion attacking whoever the Dem candidate is. Bernie has never seen that kind of onslaught before.
Can we just take note that in action, President Clinton and President Sanders dont look drastically different, and that most people voting in the primaries would be happy with both?
Because right now in the republican primary we have fucking humpty-dumpty on the sitting on his wall with a former grand wizard yelling at the immigrants and muslims he wants to ban while writing a SOTU address about his steaks and his cock. Comparitively we have it pretty good either way.
Because right now in the republican primary we have fucking humpty-dumpty on the sitting on his wall with a former grand wizard yelling at the immigrants and muslims he wants to ban while writing a SOTU address about his steaks and his cock. Comparitively we have it pretty good either way.
mugurumakensei
Member
DWS is the DNC Chair and Hillary's campaign manager from 2008.
SpideySenses
Member
I have a really hard time believing that Bernie supporters will be fine if he's an ineffective yet incorruptible president who makes small change but none doesn't deliver on his big promises. I mean other than Obama not making similarly big claims, I feel like that description fits him too and I don't get the impression that the average Bernie supporter was especially happy with his presidency and consider him part of the establishment that Sanders needs to topple.
And as an aside, here in the UK we were promised free tuition a few years back, unfortunately the right also had power at the time similar to a republican congress and guess what, people weren't happy that it wasn't delivered and didn't give the politician the benefit of the doubt for simply trying his best. Could be different for you guys but I'm very, very skeptical.
And as an aside, here in the UK we were promised free tuition a few years back, unfortunately the right also had power at the time similar to a republican congress and guess what, people weren't happy that it wasn't delivered and didn't give the politician the benefit of the doubt for simply trying his best. Could be different for you guys but I'm very, very skeptical.
uncelestial
Member
Why, because nobody who dislikes the status quo should ever run for president?
Do you hear yourself right now?
Damerman
Member
Isn't his platform, that has gotten him as far as this, a socialist platform?because of polls like this?
RNC and SuperPACs are going to spend nearly $1 billion attacking whoever the Dem candidate is. Bernie has never seen that kind of onslaught before.
boiled goose
good with gravy
First of all, the characterization that i disappear from the thread is unfair. I post as much as i can and try to Reply as much as i can. Unfortunately have to sleep and work. Posting from my phone now....
...
Ok now things are getting interesting.
Rebuked institutions but still saavy to get donations.
Not a simple quid pro quo.
Point to legislation.
See the issue here?
Yes. It is not always a simple tit for tat. Instead this corrupting influence shapes politicians entire policy. For example, is Hillary's toughness on wall street tough enough? Not likely when she is getting millions.
If you want specific instances, i have provided multiple leads previously. The specifics are basically every single financial and trade policy that has major concessions to special interests.
Let's look at this issue from a pro Hillary framing. Guns. Why isn't she saavy enough to get millions of dollars from the nra? Well because she is actually on the side of the people and not special interests here.
And again, it's not like Hillary is evil. The whole system is fucked. Tue system itself is corrupt.
So which is it? Does money corrupt politics or do we have to get into Hillary specifics? You are arguing both sides.
DrROBschiz
Member
Gay Marriage was challenged in court
Are you saying just because it faces a challenge that its not worth pursuing?
WTF is with all this defeatist logic
because of polls like this?
RNC and SuperPACs are going to spend nearly $1 billion attacking whoever the Dem candidate is. Bernie has never seen that kind of onslaught before.
If this poll is to believed, Bernie could've never achieved the success he's seeing right now.
boiled goose
good with gravy
What these folk dont realize is that despite thinking they are progressives they have in fact become comfy centrists. They just haven't realized it.
Come on, man. Get real. It's more nuanced than what you're positing.
The point is that, because of the good-faith donations, she is much less likely to attempt with any genuineness to help create legislation that hinders the big banks. It will be business as usual for 8 years. Whereas you have another candidate who is explicitly campaigning against big banks and is not accepting donations from them, and will at least attempt to split them up and make them pay more tax.
She will need them to pay for her re-election in 4 years.
Do you think within her tenure she will actually do anything about it? Perhaps you don't think anything needs to be done anyway -- fair enough.
I would love to have a thread where people staked a ban on whether Hillary will actually accomplish (or at least visibly attempt to accomplish) anything substantially progressive. (Or whether she will take us to war, as another example.) I mean, she won't. She's even campaigning on presumptive failure with the whole "not making promises and I will be a progressive who gets things done" crap.
She needs to be inspiring people and elected officials to rally behind bold progressive policies, but I'd bet a ban that she doesn't have the guts to go against her donors.
The insanity of this is that ultimately, Hillary and Bernie have the same goals. They BOTH want an uplifted middle class. They BOTH want healthcare for all. People need to not let this primary season turn these two politicians into fundamental adversaries. They agree on the issues 93% of time, and that can't be ignored.
A vote for Hillary isn't a vote against our ideas. It's a vote for someone who understands the United States as the country it is, not the country we would like it to be. And that any real, progressive change is going to have to be hard fought and won with smaller, incremental steps instead of leaps and bounds. She understands compromise is oftentimes unfortunate but necessary. And she's been in the trenches with her party for long enough that I believe she'll have a much easier time rallying them to her causes, unlike Bernie who has spent his entire campaign throwing the conservative wing of the party under the bus (and conservative democrats DO exist and can't be ignored). For this reason ALONE she'd get more done in office than Bernie would, who is looking more and more like an old man screaming on a hill by the day.
PlatypusDude
Member
There's a big difference between being competitive in the Dem Primary and winning the General Election and the type of views you can express in each of those.
Are you seriously comparing a social issue to socialized Health Care?
The government would have to literally buy out the entire health insurance market for it to legally even have a single payer system! SSM isn't even in the same league of sheer fuckery passing a single player plan would be.
I imagine it means 47% of both parties will vote for a socialist, it's probably higher on the dems' side and lower on the repub's side.
The only way Bernie wins is by a reframing of the coversation and some major GOTV.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
because of polls like this?
RNC and SuperPACs are going to spend nearly $1 billion attacking whoever the Dem candidate is. Bernie has never seen that kind of onslaught before.
I am dying for an updated poll about that, as my number one concern about Sanders--by a country mile--is that the socialism tag and raised taxes will absolutely destroy him in the general. Possibly against anyone. And nothing's really going to convince me otherwise except for some profound and undeniable poll trends.
While I'd still lean Clinton because I just think she's more equipped for Presidenting, I'd be a LOT less concerned about a Sanders nomination and might even give him the electability advantage if those socialist numbers flipped and his favorables stayed high. But they'd have to flip HARD.
Edit: shouldn't say "flipped" as its only six points. I'd want to see the Yes numbers in the 70s at a minimum.
- Status