BoxManLocke
Member
It gets much better in season 11.
It's weird how the guy who wrote the best Sam-centric episode the show has ever had (Mystery Spot) just completely fucked over the character when he became showrunner.
I'm so glad Carver is gone.
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Supernatural Season 12 |OT| Mama, I'm Coming Home
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
- Start date
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It gets much better in season 11.
It's weird how the guy who wrote the best Sam-centric episode the show has ever had (Mystery Spot) just completely fucked over the character when he became showrunner.
I'm so glad Carver is gone.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Thanks.
As much as I like Dean it just bugs me that they only give him the actual developments as well as all the fun/quirky stuff.
Sam on the other hand is just bland and they miss so many opportunities to do fun or quirky elements with him(the clown thing is it)
*im not really counting a support character like Castiel in this, who is handled incredibly well.
BKatastrophe
Member
Truer sentiments have never been spoken. I don't care how good S11 was, it had a terrible build up and Carver made terrible decisions.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
LOL, following the S9 OT as I make my way through.
Yup, lot of Sam hate/comments starting to appear.
Yup, lot of Sam hate/comments starting to appear.
BKatastrophe
Member
BoxManLocke
Member
You can't ignore a character's development for years and then expect the audience to accept or even understand why they would start having such strong reactions all of a sudden, especially when targeting a beloved character.
Don't get me wrong, I think Sam was totally right to give Dean so much shit after the Ezekiel/Gadreel incident. But Sam needed to be more than pretty wallpaper for most fans to be okay with that.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
More like, "Wow. They figured out how to avoid drama, ignore the crazier part of the fan base, and just focus on good stories they wanted to tell."
Season 11 was an anomaly. An outlier. Something that good after so long is uncommon.
I had hoped it was a sign that the show was going back to the top, but 12 was a bit less than the high of 11. Though maybe 11 was just so good anything else will look horrid in comparison? I dunno.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Carver left. New show runner seasons are usually mixed bags.
Septimus Prime
Member
It's actually bothered me for a while that it's been the Dean show, featuring Sam, since season 3 or so.
Sam is like a third tier character, behind Dean and Cas.
Sam is like a third tier character, behind Dean and Cas.
Sam was written so poorly in the second half of season 9. That was the most frustrating stretch of the series for me and my fiance when I recently got her into the series.
But they just did it this season too. There was no brother fighting, no focus on the crazy fan base and they focused on the characters. If anything, they felt even closer in season 12.
But they just did it this season too. There was no brother fighting, no focus on the crazy fan base and they focused on the characters. If anything, they felt even closer in season 12.
BoxManLocke
Member
The lack of melodrama, the improvements in Sam's treatment and the jump in quality in season 11 can still be attributed to Andrew Dabb I think, as Carver left some time during the writing of the season, not after it ended.
Considering he spent months working on his new show, I'm not even sure if Carver was a big influence in season 11. I tend to think he wasn't, because, you know, it wasn't complete shit.
I do agree with you though, season 11 was an anomaly, it's like the stars had aligned : Carver wasn't that present, Thompson was still there, and Singer wasn't showrunner anymore (this guy's bad influence cannot be overstated. He was there for all the shitty Carver seasons, and came back as co-showrunner for season 12 which was super meh).
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Thanks guys
BoxManLocke
Member
I like season 7.
Sure, its main antagonist was boring, but you can say that about every season since Kripke left.
The thing I appreciate the most about this season is the whackiness. You had Sam and Dean doppelgangers going on a murderous road trip, Dean getting roofied by the Leviathan burgers, Dean working with Eliot Ness, Sam getting chased by clowns, and so on.
Sure, it didn't make for a very cohesive or gripping season, but at least it was fun. Can't really say the same about anything that came after that.
Oh and the few times when the season decided to get dark, it did it very, very well. Death's Door comes to mind. A masterpiece and one of my all-time favorites.
Septimus Prime
Member
Turducken Slammer. I would totally eat it if it existed.
They've got too much experience for that sort of thing at this point.
BKatastrophe
Member
I think S12 is dope as hell.
The kitsune episode was goddamned awesome. And that shit happened right away.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Just watched the S9 episode with the Gabriel illusion in my last batch,
Man I wish he was back.
Yup.
Man I wish he was back.
Yup.
BoxManLocke
Member
"You like that storyline development that's so much better than what came before and could potentially result in a brilliant ending of the season ?
Well that was just an illusion ! Ha ! Aren't we so damn clever ?"
The writers dangling this in front of us only to take it back almost instantly was such a slap in the face.
That was the perfect opportunity to bring Gabriel back in a meaningful way, it's too late now.
@BKatastrophe : I loved that episode as well. I just hated that Dean didn't get to face the consequences of his actions, which has been a recurrent problem since like season five.
BKatastrophe
Member
He did kind of. The whole trial with Horus happened right after and Sam ditched him for an episode.
That kid's gotta be old enough now, right?
Speaking of, y'all remember that rugaru kid? From S4? He's gotta be what, 8 or 9? Timeline's wonky in this universe. Like, isn't there an extra year between 5 & 6 and then another between 7 & 8? So he'd be 11?
BoxManLocke
Member
I mean, the entire premise of season 13 is about a kid who may or may not be evil because of how he came to exist.
So I don't see the point of bringing back characters like these anymore. Same goes for Jesse. That'd just be redundant.
So I don't see the point of bringing back characters like these anymore. Same goes for Jesse. That'd just be redundant.
BKatastrophe
Member
I'd argue there's even more of a reason to bring them back precisely because of this.
BoxManLocke
Member
I hope they don't. The show already has had a bunch of episodes on this theme and Jack already has the best example of the kind of person he can aspire to be : Sam.
This is a great opportunity to keep Sam in the spotlight instead of having guest-stars that take too much space.
Besides, between the alternate universe storyline and the classic standalones, I doubt there'll be much time for anything else.
This is a great opportunity to keep Sam in the spotlight instead of having guest-stars that take too much space.
Besides, between the alternate universe storyline and the classic standalones, I doubt there'll be much time for anything else.
BKatastrophe
Member
Do we know that the alternate timeline is going to even be a prominent focus?
The producers said we're going to see people come back from dead in both the real world AND the alternate world.
I'm really excited to see what that means. And very excited to see more Bobby.
BoxManLocke
Member
It's been confirmed there'll be scenes with Mary as well as character returns. They did say it'll be of less importance than the Sam/Dean/Jack trio at the beginning of the season, but that was to be expected.
What's weird is that not a single thing was said about Lucifer yet.
What's weird is that not a single thing was said about Lucifer yet.
Edit : Not sure if the spoiler tag was necessary since what we know so far is still quite vague but still
BKatastrophe
Member
Intrigued, but I honestly don't care about Bobby. He's had a good sendoff. Feels like a shoehorn everytime. Especially S8. "We need to purify a soul in Hell and send him to Heaven! What's that you say? Bobby's in Hell? OH EM GEE!"
It never had that. It's always been just them because anytime they get a "community" then everyone else dies.
BoxManLocke
Member
Not interested in potential character returns in the alternate universe.
Bobby without his love for Sam and Dean is not Bobby. Same goes for all characters really. Sam and Dean don't exist in the AU and when you sever that connection all that's left is a fanfiction version of each character. I want more than fanservice for this storyline.
I admit it would be fun to see someone we've known as a villain return as an ally in the alternate universe but that's pretty much it.
Bobby without his love for Sam and Dean is not Bobby. Same goes for all characters really. Sam and Dean don't exist in the AU and when you sever that connection all that's left is a fanfiction version of each character. I want more than fanservice for this storyline.
I admit it would be fun to see someone we've known as a villain return as an ally in the alternate universe but that's pretty much it.
Septimus Prime
Member
No John, no thanks.
BKatastrophe
Member
Here's the thing about alternate universe characters: they have to make sense given the character we already know. To make them still feel like that character, yet still different, is an important and impressive feat. To use a recent TV series, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. did it impeccably well with the final arc of S4. If they can do that with this alternate timeline, I'm on board completely. I love alternate timeline shenanigans, but it has to be done well.
We still haven't found out what happened to Bobby in season 10 when he got in trouble in Heaven for helping get Metatron out.
Fan fiction time:
- They turned his soul into an angel.
- Which means he can only possess another vessel.
- Alt-Bobby is critically wounded.
- Our Bobby possesses Alt-Bobby.
- We now have Bobby as an angel, wearing a nice white suit. With a trucker hat.
Fan fiction time:
- They turned his soul into an angel.
- Which means he can only possess another vessel.
- Alt-Bobby is critically wounded.
- Our Bobby possesses Alt-Bobby.
- We now have Bobby as an angel, wearing a nice white suit. With a trucker hat.
BoxManLocke
Member
I'm sure it can be done well, in shows where it makes sense. I just feel like in SPN's case it's a gimmick to bring back characters while avoiding full-on resurrections, which the showrunners have said they want to avoid.
It's a different way, but the end result would be the same. I'd like the writers to use the characters that are still alive (yes, there's still a few of those), and most importantly to stop killing every character under the sun.
"Yay alternate character returns !" should not be the answer to the mostly useless bloodbath that was season 12.
Nobody can access the alternate universe until Jack opens back the rift. Not even angels.
But yeah, I'd like to know what happened to Bobby after Sam and Cass threw him under the bus. I just assumed he got locked in a cell in heaven, but some kind of closure would be nice.
That doesn't really matter as we know it's going to be part of season 13.
BoxManLocke
Member
As a separate storyline, yes.
We don't know when or even if the rift will be opened back up.
The lack of info on Mary/Lucifer and Samantha Smith's absence from Comic-Con don't fill me with confidence about this whole thing ending well.
Again, that doesn't mean anything. She's a guest star. There's no reason to have her there. There have been SDCCs where Jensen and Jared weren't there, only Misha Collins and Jim Beaver.
Her not being there at SDCC tells us literally nothing about the season. At all. They're simply keeping it a secret.
But we know that, factually, the rift will be opened The producers have specifically stated we're going to see more of it. Obviously it'll be opened again.
Septimus Prime
Member
Without her being a regular, though, she could get hired for another show, and that would be that.
BKatastrophe
Member
I don't disagree on the usage and for the purpose of not-resurrections. I've already expressed how I'm tired of retreading the same storylines with Crowley, Castiel, and Lucifer. It's just the same shit over and over, but even with these fake-resurrections, it'll still be something new.
BoxManLocke
Member
Well, I wish they'd given the character and the actress a little more love considering how she was treated in season 12.
I didn't know Jared and Jensen had skipped SDCC before. I wonder why ? I gotta watch that panel now.
I guess they'll wait til they're close to the end of the season to open the rift back.
I completely agree. Killing Crowley was the right move, and they should never have brought back Lucifer in season 11. He adds nothing to the table and it just feels like the show is trying to relive its glory days. I wanted something new as well. Let's just say that an alternate universe wasn't on my wish list.
I didn't know Jared and Jensen had skipped SDCC before. I wonder why ? I gotta watch that panel now.
I guess they'll wait til they're close to the end of the season to open the rift back.
I completely agree. Killing Crowley was the right move, and they should never have brought back Lucifer in season 11. He adds nothing to the table and it just feels like the show is trying to relive its glory days. I wanted something new as well. Let's just say that an alternate universe wasn't on my wish list.
I don't know why you're saying this.
They're not waiting until the end of the season for this. The producers have said it's part of the season. I'm not sure why you're fighting it.
Lucifer and Mary are stuck there. Lucifer's son is now a main cast member. The two plots tie together.
BoxManLocke
Member
I'm not fighting anything, it's very usual for SPN to wait until the end of the season to tie different plots together.
Not saying we won't have scenes inside the rift before that, obviously. I know we will. Since there's going to be a whole buildup about Mary's adventures inside the rift, and Jack's struggle to control his powers. So midseason at best, or the finale at worst. I'm not expecting a reunion before that.
Not saying we won't have scenes inside the rift before that, obviously. I know we will. Since there's going to be a whole buildup about Mary's adventures inside the rift, and Jack's struggle to control his powers. So midseason at best, or the finale at worst. I'm not expecting a reunion before that.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
What is the deal with the Season 10 OT, every time a click the next page it has a popup for "SupernaturalFansOnline" asking me to sign in.
(on the PS4 browser)
(on the PS4 browser)
BKatastrophe
Member
They're running a nice little promo where first time members get a one month sub to the Supernatural yaoi video and image site of your choosing.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
I knew that shit was coming in Season 10,
i didn't even like Charlie all that much and it still pissed me off.
Well, moving the goalposts to "midseason at best" is a bit unfair. That would be episode 9 out of a 22 episode season. You went from "we don't know if they'll open it back up" to "we probably won't see it until the end of the season" to "well, maybe 9 episodes in."
That being said, we have tentative episode titles up until the mid season finale and episode 7 is called
"War of the Worlds"
"The Bad Place."
The full list of episode titles:
Episode 1: "Lost and Found"
Episode 2: "The Rising Sun"
Episode 3: "Patience" - This is the episode that introduces Missouri Moseley's granddaughter, Patience, for the Wayward Sisters spin-off.
Episode 4:
"The Big Empty"
Episode 5: "Advanced Thanatology" - Thanatology is the study of death so I'm hoping this means we'll be seeing a certain character make a comeback.
Episode 6: "Tombstone"
Episode 7:
"War of the Worlds"
Episode 9:
"The Bad Place"
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