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Surface |OT|

Totakeke

Member
its funny cause I got my first tablet in 2003. what 7 years before the ipad was announced. I also had smart phones for years before the iphone. The same argument you make in this post can be used against both I product designs. Heck you can go back to the ipod and say the same thing. There were mp3 players for years before it came out.

iPhone and iPad were pushing for a significantly different landscape in terms of hardware components compared to any product used before it. They essentially created a new market with actual demand and thus need for different components for their use cases.

Surface RT hardware components are based off on Android tablets, Surface Pro hardware components are based on plenty of laptops before it. It's false equivalence to equate a tablet you held in 2003 to an iPad in terms of hardware requirements. Yes, there will be improvements, but most of these components are already very mature and thus their future updates would mostly be incremental rather than large jumps.
 
Another important question.


Is there a way to set IE so that websites view it as a desktop app, not a mobile app?

If I could watch ESPN3.com on it I would be in heaven.

Actually, websites view it as a desktop app always - and ESPN3 (or, WatchESPN as they're calling it) works like a charm. :) I use it all the time on my Surface.
 
So what games do people recommend? Our surface hasn't arrived yet, but I already have a few Pinball FX 2 tables and I grabbed Reckless Racing (which if you haven't tried out yet, there is a trial which convinced me to get the full version). Both will hopefully run well on it. Hydrothunder runs like crap even on my high end PC, so no wonder it runs like crap on the surface. What else is good? I like adventure games, racing games, platformers, horror stuff. I know it's early days, but I'm hoping to see some of the mobile games I haven't got to try like the Rayman Run game, and the Dead Space 2 based one show up on this.

Is there a good site to check out Windows RT game reviews?
 

Kafel

Banned
Can you check what's in the Store ? I don't have W8 yet. If I get a Surface I'd like to use something like Filezilla and Note++ on it. Are they available ? (and free?)
 

Totakeke

Member
Can you check what's in the Store ? I don't have W8 yet. If I get a Surface I'd like to use something like Filezilla and Note++ on it. Are they available ? (and free?)

Nothing like those, there's no ftp apps but there's plenty of note taking apps including OneNote MX. But if you're talking about Notepad++ for coding stuffs, no there isn't.
 

SeanR1221

Member
Is there really no decent pdf annotation app?

Theres MS Reader, which is nice, but you can't annotate, highlight, etc.

There's PDF touch where you can highlight, but you cant write in text annotations.

Aji Annotate on the iPad blows these two apps away.
 
Is there really no decent pdf annotation app?

Theres MS Reader, which is nice, but you can't annotate, highlight, etc.

There's PDF touch where you can highlight, but you cant write in text annotations.

Aji Annotate on the iPad blows these two apps away.


You should probably reach out to Branchfire and request they create a WinRT version of Aji Annotate.

Surface RT is less than a month old so you may want to hold off on a Surface purchase until the program you need to run is available for the platform.

I've reached out to Avi Bhatt via Linkedin. Annotate looks like it would be a perfect app for Surface.
 
It's one and the same if its coming from the App Store and metro. Required to run on both.

Apps For Windows 8 And Windows RT


Apps written in .NET that do not rely on any native code are platform-agnostic. In other words, they are able to freely move between CPU architectures (incidentally, that's the reason why we include .NET performance in stories like AMD FX-8350 Review: Does Piledriver Fix Bulldozer's Flaws?; .NET performance is indicative of a different breed of software). Therefore, .NET-based apps will run on both Windows 8 or Windows RT. However, apps written in C++, as well as apps that require an existing code base or libraries, need to be compiled separately for both the x86 and ARM architectures.

So, will “metro” apps work on Windows 8 and Windows RT, or not? Unfortunately, this one isn't so simple either. Why would it be, right?


In general, simpler apps like casual games and websites will most likely be compatible with both versions of the new Windows. Meanwhile “metro” versions of more complex apps, such as hardcore games and system utilities, will need to have separate Windows 8 and Windows RT versions created.

Developing “metro” apps in .NET is clearly the preferred path moving forward, as it allows the app to run on both Windows 8 and Windows RT, although creating native Windows RT apps is also an option.

Link

See, this is what I thought. I want native Windows RT development for the apps on Surface RT. Period.

Performance of apps may not be important to some of you, but it's important to me. In otherwords, I want ALL my Surface apps coded in C++, not .Net.
 

Mairu

Member
Link

See, this is what I thought. I want native Windows RT development for the apps on Surface RT. Period.

Performance of apps may not be important to some of you, but it's important to me. In otherwords, I want ALL my Surface apps coded in C++, not .Net.

Some of the current performance of RT apps is just embarrassing. What does it say to someone when they stop by the MS Store to try out a surface, and Jetpack Joyride runs worse than it does on their iPad 1 or iPhone 3G? :|

I do realize that it is early though and with time (hopefully) developers will learn to better optimize their apps for the platform.
 
Some of the current performance of RT apps is just embarrassing. What does it say to someone when they stop by the MS Store to try out a surface, and Jetpack Joyride runs worse than it does on their iPad 1 or iPhone 3G? :|

I do realize that it is early though and with time (hopefully) developers will learn to better optimize their apps for the platform.

This.


Performance is important. It's just as important as expandable storage and the ability to connect external peripherals to Surface RT.

I'm sure app performance will improve, but if apps are coded to run across multiple platforms ARM/x86 you can't expect great performance.

C++ or bust.
 

Izick

Member
I really like the idea of the surface, but it just doesn't seem to be there yet for me. I want a tablet that I'll be able to replace my laptop with, and Surface definitely holds that promise, but it's just not there yet with its internal guys it seems. I think I'm going to hold out for the next Surface Pro and see how that shapes up.
 
Link

See, this is what I thought. I want native Windows RT development for the apps on Surface RT. Period.

Performance of apps may not be important to some of you, but it's important to me. In otherwords, I want ALL my Surface apps coded in C++, not .Net.

Why are people still confused about this. You can write in native code for WinRT. Period. The code you write gets JIT on the app store server when you publish and is downloaded as ARM in ARM devices and x86 on x86 devices. They've re-affirmed this during the Build conferences.
 
Why are people still confused about this. You can write in native code for WinRT. Period. The code you write gets JIT on the app store server when you publish and is downloaded as ARM in ARM devices and x86 on x86 devices. They've re-affirmed this during the Build conferences.

Define native code. What is Window RT native code?

You're saying the options to code are not C++ OR .NET?

Again..as a Surface RT owner (in 45 days) I want all my installed apps to perform optimally for that platform. I don't care about Windows 8. Period.
 

Chichikov

Member
I'm sure app performance will improve, but if apps are coded to run across multiple platforms ARM/x86 you can't expect great performance.

C++ or bust.
What level of optimization do you think is required to metro apps?
Are you really expecting people to put architecture specific code in these?

Now it's true, .net is generally slower than c++, but it's mostly because it's a GC language, this has little to do with ARM/x86, and in my experience, it's completely possible to create very performant win8 apps using xaml/c#; my guess is that we're just seeing some poorly coded now (and I don't deny that there are a whole lot of poorly coded apps in the store at the moment).
 
What level of optimization do you think is required to metro apps?
Are you really expecting people to put architecture specific code in these?

Now it's true, .net is generally slower than c++, but it's mostly because it's a GC language, this has little to do with ARM/x86, and in my experience, it's completely possible to create very performant win8 apps using xaml/c#; my guess is that we're just seeing some poorly coded now (and I don't deny that there are a whole lot of poorly coded apps in the store at the moment).

Uhm..iOS apps won't run on a Mac right?

Why wouldn't I expect architecture specific code?
 
Cool. See, I don't mind learning something.

So, you guys are saying it's simply bad code...not that the apps aren't written to the hardware? That writing to the hardware won't make a difference in performance.


So, let's hope that with time this bad code will go away.

It would be nice to know what apps are "bad code" before a user makes a purchase. Someone should compile a list of underperforming apps.

I'm assuming Jetpack Joyride is one of those that has some "bad code" in it. I've also heard that Fruit Ninja isn't as optimized as it is on other platforms.
 

Chichikov

Member
Uhm..iOS apps won't run on a Mac right?

Why wouldn't I expect architecture specific code?
I'm not sure I follow your argument here.
x86 code will not run on an ARM device (and vice versa).
You have tools that allow you to code once and compile to multiple platforms (those tools also exists for c++ by the way).
I don't think that the lack of manual CPU optimization (as opposed to stuff the compiler does on its on) is what causing the app performance issues, and I honestly can't think of many examples where you would care about that when writing a metro app.
 

PG2G

Member
I think a lot of the performance issues just have to do with the fact that developers did all of their development and testing on Windows 8/Intel boxes. It is hard to optimize code (or determine that it even needs it) when your test/dev platform is a order of magnitude more powerful than the deployment platform,

Now that there are Windows RT devices out in the wild, I'd expect that developers can begin to address RT performance issues.
 

ralexand

100% logic failure rate
I think a lot of the performance issues just have to do with the fact that developers did all of their development and testing on Windows 8/Intel boxes. It is hard to optimize code (or determine that it even needs it) when your test/dev platform is a order of magnitude more powerful than the deployment platform,

Now that there are Windows RT devices out in the wild, I'd expect that developers can begin to address RT performance issues.

Excellent point!
 
Define native code. What is Window RT native code?

You're saying the options to code are not C++ OR .NET?

Again..as a Surface RT owner (in 45 days) I want all my installed apps to perform optimally for that platform. I don't care about Windows 8. Period.

Native code means none-managed code meaning there's no intermediate byte code, you can write native c++, you can write unmannaged c#, you can usin intrinsics, etc. WinRT is essentially built on top of Win32 except that it has ACLs around key resources and modules to allow for sandboxing. This i why you can write DirectX and COM code now. In fact, there are native implementations of things like Xaml and then some. You have the option to use language ligh level as C# or even Javascript and make native calls via reflections or write pure native C++ and make wrapped calls to managed libraries. This is not confusing if you actually look at the SDKs provided for Windows 8 development. You say you don't care about windows 8 but whether you are doing WP8, ARM or x86 development, it's all on the Windows 8 kernal and this is why you can write native code. Remember, the compiler handles machine code generation.

EDIT: It's important to remember that you cannot out-optimize a compiler. If you are writing poorly performing c# code, going down into c++ will probably only make matters worse for you and more so in some thing like assembly and you'd be totally lost if given the oportunity to create machine code yourself. optimization has more to do with design patterns than the language you're using. While native code will allow you to write much tighter code with the management overhead stripped away, you are now being more explicit to the compiler and essentially tying its hands more when it comes time for it to generate optimal instructions from your code so you better know what you're doing.
 
I think a lot of the performance issues just have to do with the fact that developers did all of their development and testing on Windows 8/Intel boxes. It is hard to optimize code (or determine that it even needs it) when your test/dev platform is a order of magnitude more powerful than the deployment platform,

Now that there are Windows RT devices out in the wild, I'd expect that developers can begin to address RT performance issues.

MS will continue to optimize the Windows 8 kernal on ARM as well. They essentially ported the entire 20 years of Win32 onto ARM in 3 years. It's kind of insane.
 

hwalker84

Member
Native code means none-managed code meaning there's no intermediate byte code, you can write native c++, you can write unmannaged c#, you can usin intrinsics, etc. WinRT is essentially built on top of Win32 except that it has ACLs around key resources and modules to allow for sandboxing. This i why you can write DirectX and COM code now. In fact, there are native implementations of things like Xaml and then some. You have the option to use language ligh level as C# or even Javascript and make native calls via reflections or write pure native C++ and make wrapped calls to managed libraries. This is not confusing if you actually look at the SDKs provided for Windows 8 development. You say you don't care about windows 8 but whether you are doing WP8, ARM or x86 development, it's all on the Windows 8 kernal and this is why you can write native code. Remember, the compiler handles machine code generation.

EDIT: It's important to remember that you cannot out-optimize a compiler. If you are writing poorly performing c# code, going down into c++ will probably only make matters worse for you and more so in some thing like assembly and you'd be totally lost if given the oportunity to create machine code yourself. optimization has more to do with design patterns than the language you're using. While native code will allow you to write much tighter code with the management overhead stripped away, you are now being more explicit to the compiler and essentially tying its hands more when it comes time for it to generate optimal instructions from your code so you better know what you're doing.
So glad I changed majors
 
A feature that was recently launched across many devices including the iPhone and Android OS is Microsoft’s Smart Glass. Smart Glass allows you to connect your tablet and use it to enhance your Xbox experience. The app is included natively on Surface RT and allows you to perform all kinds of functions with your Xbox including slinging Movies and Music from your tablet with just the press of an icon. For example, say you decide to bring your Surface into the bathroom to stream some music from the Xbox Music service while you shower. After you’re done, you can direct your Xbox to continue playing through your playlist by pressing the Play On Xbox 360 button. Your tablet will connect to your Xbox 360 utilizing the Smart Glass function, allowing you to browse through the artists’ bios on your tablet or continue surfing the internet.

Smart Glass is also used to extend the gaming experience from the Xbox 360 to the tablet. While playing Forza Horizon, I was able to use the tablet as my vehicle’s GPS unit, plotting trails, and selecting events to head to. Once an event was selected, the directions promptly popped up in-game and away I went. While it may be a simple example of the potentials of this feature, it is most certainly a promising one. This is a feature that was prominently shown off at E3 this last June with Halo 4, and something we’ll most certainly be exploring more in-depth when that game launches this next week.

Link.

This is pretty cool.
 

Mairu

Member
Cool. See, I don't mind learning something.

So, you guys are saying it's simply bad code...not that the apps aren't written to the hardware? That writing to the hardware won't make a difference in performance.


So, let's hope that with time this bad code will go away.

It would be nice to know what apps are "bad code" before a user makes a purchase. Someone should compile a list of underperforming apps.

I'm assuming Jetpack Joyride is one of those that has some "bad code" in it. I've also heard that Fruit Ninja isn't as optimized as it is on other platforms.
Aren't Fruit Ninja and Jetpack Joyride from the same Dev?

That Smart Glass feature in Forza sounds kinda cool.
 
Surface cost analysis:

With a base price of $499 for a 32 gigabyte Surface without the Touch Cover accessory, IHS estimates that the cost of components used to build it amount to $271 for a starter 32GB model, without the cover. The main components include a Tegra 3 processor chip from Nvidia, and a display and memory chips from Samsung. (Of course, Microsoft is probably buying memory chips from more than one vendor.)
Analyst Andrew Rassweiler, who led the IHS teardown team, said that Microsoft is using the relatively low entry price as a base, in hope of enticing consumers to buy higher-end models with the Touch Cover and higher memory capacity. The Touch Cover, which my colleague Walt Mossberg liked in his review of the Surface, costs $120 when purchased separately, and is bundled with the higher-end models.
Rassweiler estimates the cost of the parts used to build the Touch Cover at about $16, making it appear to be pretty profitable. It contains chips from Atmel and Freescale Semiconductor, he says. “It’s a compelling accessory for users to have, and a great example of a way in which manufacturers get consumers interested with a base price, and hope they’ll impulsively opt for extra features that make more profit,” he told me. Accessories always have higher profit margins than the devices they are intended to be sold with, Rassweiler says, and protective cases for phones and tablets always tend to sell well.
One big winner with the Surface appears to be Samsung. With one key exception — building the main processor chips — Samsung has been pushed out of Apple’s iPad and iPhone products. For the Surface, Samsung supplied the display, the memory chips and the battery, amounting to about $137, or about half of the $271 bill-of-materials (BOM) cost..
http://allthingsd.com/20121104/two-...-microsoft-surface-and-amazon-kindle-fire-hd/

They learned from the best.

Of course it doesn't cover the R&D that went into it.
 
It's taken me a few days, but I'm getting used to navigating around this thing now. I'm still not sure how I feel about the touch keyboard. I'm a bit of a messy typist so it sometimes doesn't register my touches, especially if I don't touch hard enough. I'm also finding using the touchpad hard, as well as the mouse 'buttons' and the spacebar. Hopefully it all improves with practice. If not I might use the £50 credit to put towards a type keyboard. Apparently it's really not that much thicker. To be honest I'm not really sure why the type keyboard isn't used as standard. Also, why did they make the back of the cover some felt-like material? Why not plastic or rubber? It seems a bit out of place. One more thing, multitasking with apps works beautifully. I really think Microsoft undersold this feature, considering their own apps are fantastic at it.

screenshot1opqip.png
 

xJavonta

Banned
It's taken me a few days, but I'm getting used to navigating around this thing now. I'm still not sure how I feel about the touch keyboard. I'm a bit of a messy typist so it sometimes doesn't register my touches, especially if I don't touch hard enough. I'm also finding using the touchpad hard, as well as the mouse 'buttons' and the spacebar. Hopefully it all improves with practice. If not I might use the £50 credit to put towards a type keyboard. Apparently it's really not that much thicker. To be honest I'm not really sure why the type keyboard isn't used as standard. Also, why did they make the back of the cover some felt-like material? Why not plastic or rubber? It seems a bit out of place. One more thing, multitasking with apps works beautifully. I really think Microsoft undersold this feature, considering their own apps are fantastic at it.

Definitely, that's my favorite part about Windows 8. I've been rocking dual monitors for a while now, and even though I've always been a multitasker with them, the new method of multitasking in Windows 8 is phenomenal. I just wish I could use multiple metro apps at once. I'd like to have Xbox Music and Messaging up at the same time as well as desktop Chrome.
 

hwalker84

Member
Definitely, that's my favorite part about Windows 8. I've been rocking dual monitors for a while now, and even though I've always been a multitasker with them, the new method of multitasking in Windows 8 is phenomenal. I just wish I could use multiple metro apps at once. I'd like to have Xbox Music and Messaging up at the same time as well as desktop Chrome.
It'll come.
 

Rubenov

Member
I tried to like it, wanted to purchase one for my sister, but neither of us could get used to typing on the cover keyboard. A lot of promise but it just felt wrong.
 

BuRT!

Member
Is this thing only available in Microsoft stores? I was thinking of going to check it out at BestBuy but it is not even on their website..
 
I tried to like it, wanted to purchase one for my sister, but neither of us could get used to typing on the cover keyboard. A lot of promise but it just felt wrong.

Confused. You were buying it only because you wanted a tablet to use with a keyboard?

You know you can get something like this for $30.

Get a bluetooth mouse...or plug a usb mouse into the slot....

One of the great thing about the Surface is it's support for 3rd party peripherals.
 

Mairu

Member
Type Cover is awesome. Type Cover + Surface = little reason to buy a case/sleeve/whatever (unless you're weird about scraping the back of the Surface)
 

eastmen

Banned
I tried to like it, wanted to purchase one for my sister, but neither of us could get used to typing on the cover keyboard. A lot of promise but it just felt wrong.

you need more than a few minutes with one to get used to it. I've been using it for awhile and i'm slowly getting better with it. I def like it better than my old netbooks and I can type faster on it then them. The type cover is much better and I've basicly mastered it. I'm a little slower on it then my desktop keyboard but that's to be expected , I have big hands and the type cover is only 10 inches wide
 
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