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Surface |OT|

dLMN8R

Member
So...people have compared the apps (lack of) but I don't think people are spending enough time reviewing the UI, and how it feels using that compared to an iPad, a Kindle Fire HD or a Nex7.

Some have referenced the sluggish feel of some apps opening, but I've also heard that the multitasking with the Surface is unmatched by other OSes.

Sounds like the device is something to pick up in 2 months, but not at release. I'm good with that.

One thing you shouldn't overlook if you get a surface (or really any Windows 8/RT tablet) - in PC Settings, there's the option When I swipe in from the left edge, switch directly to my most recent app:

FvPlw.png


DISABLE IT!!

It brings up the task switcher immediately on swipe-in instead of needing to do a weird swipe in/out gesture.



Once you load an app for the first time, it is indeed "fast and fluid" to switch between them. And thanks to the robust process manager, you can have pretty much an unlimited number of apps "open" to switch between instantly.
 

Troll

Banned
Downloaded the drivers. Can't can't get the gesture options. Maybe my laptop doesn't support multi-touch gestures?

Edit: just comes up as mouse properties and not touch pad.

Oh, it sounds like your touchpad doesn't support it. Time to buy a new one!
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
My "neighbor" at work is getting one of these - he'll probably leave for an hour when it arrives at his house on Friday and will return so the two of us can goof around with it.

He's a pretty big Microsoft guy - brings his personal Dell laptop to work each day with a fancy Windows logo wallpaper, rocks a Lumia 900, etc. I'm a big Apple fanboy - have my iPhone 5 and iPad 3 with me each day. We both jest back and forth and give each other a hard time; but I think we're both pretty fair about what all the different devices do well and don't do so well.

I'm excited to give the RT some hands-on time when he gets it. Office is the biggest selling point for me - but I really do think we'll see Office on the iPad sometime next year. And if not, believe it or not, but Pages and Numbers are actually pretty damn good. Outside of some funny formatting from time to time and a poor file selection tool, they work well for 95% of my needs.

The limited App Store and the 16x9 display are the two biggest turn-offs. I'm curious if the OS can woo me on other levels.
 
(disclaimer: I am a Microsoft employee)

After testing a Surface for a while, I agree with some of the reviews, but haven't had nearly as bad an experience with the software. The hardware is awesome, the app store is lacking (but should get built out pretty quickly, especially on Friday at the actual launch), and some things are slow like launching applications and a few games.

However, I've become exceedingly impressed with general performance of just using it. Internet Explorer loads pages faster than any other tablet I've ever used, including the iPad 3. And it effortlessly can load many tabs in the background simultaneously without slowing down the main tab you're looking at. Basically my main workflow is loading up a bunch of tabs from Google Reader or message board threads and reading them later. This works incredibly well on Surface.

The thing is, that performance keeps up even if I'm playing a video in the 1/3 view. I had a 720p video playing in the 1/3 view, streaming over the network from my homegroup, and web browsing was still speedy as can be.

Flash performance too has improved dramatically over the last couple weeks. Whether it's an embed on another site or right on YouTube, I never encountered the major hitches shown in some of the video reviews. It isn't always perfectly smooth though, unfortunately.


I think one of my favorite experiences using Surface was over the weekend. I wanted to put a couple TV show episodes on it to watch while I was away for the weekend. I actually hesitated for a minute - "oh no, how do I get videos on this?"

Quickly, of course, I realized the obvious - it's fucking Windows! I don't need to use USB, or SD, or even use strange video formats (though those are options). All I had to do was load up File Explorer in the Desktop, click HomeGroup, and tap and drag. Actually, I just used the "copy to" section of the Ribbon (which is also a great addition making the Desktop slightly better with touch), and I was done.

It was such a stark, welcome departure from what I was used to with my Kindle Fire or iPod Touch.

Touch Cover works well, even on my lap. Though on my lap I need to tap keys harder to get them to register. I haven't tried Type Cover.


The negatives - Mail app is fucking slow. I'm glad they added threaded messaging finally, but it's just so slow on Surface. It even has some strange formatting errors when typing, where things will temporarily screw up visually, or keyboard entry will get unnaturally slow. Apps also do take longer than I'd like to open, though switching is instant once that happens. And 15+ apps can be suspended for instant resume later.

Some of the games perform great, even more complex 3D games, but others are obviously shoddy ports. Jetpack Joyride is one such example. It's so obviously a scaled-up version of the iPhone game instead of iPad, with pixelated graphics, and even then it barely maintains 20-30fps. Really guys? 20-30FPS on what's mostly a simple 2D game that runs at a perfectly smooth 60FPS on much slower hardware? Sheesh.

Luckily, as some sites have pointed out, software can be updated over time. And with the Store, that's easy to do. The hardware is awesome, and it doesn't need to be fixed :)


And, of course, the app store. It's pretty empty right now. But the thing is, Apple pointed out something notable at their keynote this morning - they find that people use the web browser more than anything else. This definitely holds true with my use of Surface, and not because of the lack of apps. To me it's simply because the browser is awesome, and it fits my usage style. I like using the Google Reader and Twitter web sites, and they work perfectly in IE on the Surface. Hopefully better apps come soon that improve it further, but I basically replicate on Surface what I do on my Desktop PC, and I don't feel limited at all.




Remote desktop client works, but it can't act as a host. There's even a touch version of Remote Desktop in the Store, and it supports RemoteApp so you can actually appear to run full Desktop applications on Surface as long as you're on a corporate network with those apps hosted

USB connectivity is great for the most part. Anything with an in-box generic driver works (some printers, most mobile broadband, mice, keyboards, expandable storage, Xbox 360 controllers, and more)


One other thing that none of the reviews mention that I think could be huge for many families is native, robust multi-user support. It works elegantly and easily, setting up kids accounts, having different apps on each account, restricting access to accounts, etc. Every app downloaded from the store is available to every account on that machine, so you don't need to re-buy apps or games for multiple accounts. Switching is instant on Surface, things don't get bogged down.

Damn, you make me jealous of not having a wRT tablet right now :(
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
I agree it's confusing, I think MS has gotten caught up in how impressive it will be for them to launch everything they've done this year in the same month, and it is really damned impressive, but also confusing as hell for regular consumers. Especially when you consider RT and Atom tablets wont be that different in price, weight or size and yet they are totally different packages.

I still really think it should have been Pro only this year, RT next year when the ecosystem is up and running.
 

rodvik

Member
So are there any reviews of the pro yet? The only thing I am interested in is a tablet that can run my current windows apps I really want to know how well it works before jumping in.
 

Razdek

Banned
Now we know why people weren't allowed to handle the devices earlier because it would have shattered the illusion of what the real experience is like instead of the one Microsoft built. I hope the negative reviews teach them that it's not a good idea to keep things secretive until the last possible minute and now I fear for Windows Phone 8.

I think the review is most telling when it says that it doesn't do anything better than the iPad or the Nexus 7. When you're introducing a new unproven product and then pricing it in the upper tier it better be the best or equal to the competition which it doesn't look like it is.

I have Windows 8 installed in 4 machines and I like it but the WinRT versions are too limited and the store is as barren as everyone says it is. How they didn't push XBOX Live or pay the money out to get the major apps is beyond me as apps is usually the thing that users gauge an ecosystem by. Very disappointed in the product and guess we'll have to wait until Surface Pro or V2 or V3 to see what it can really do.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
^ they didn't pay for apps because pretty soon it will be stupid not to develop for Windows 8/RT. The app store is going to grow fast.
My "neighbor" at work is getting one of these - he'll probably leave for an hour when it arrives at his house on Friday and will return so the two of us can goof around with it.

He's a pretty big Microsoft guy - brings his personal Dell laptop to work each day with a fancy Windows logo wallpaper, rocks a Lumia 900, etc. I'm a big Apple fanboy - have my iPhone 5 and iPad 3 with me each day. We both jest back and forth and give each other a hard time; but I think we're both pretty fair about what all the different devices do well and don't do so well.

I'm excited to give the RT some hands-on time when he gets it. Office is the biggest selling point for me - but I really do think we'll see Office on the iPad sometime next year. And if not, believe it or not, but Pages and Numbers are actually pretty damn good. Outside of some funny formatting from time to time and a poor file selection tool, they work well for 95% of my needs.

The limited App Store and the 16x9 display are the two biggest turn-offs. I'm curious if the OS can woo me on other levels.
yeah office for the ipad will come next year when the rest of the office stuff hits, it will probably be tied to a office 365 ($9 a month, office on up to 5 devices) account though since I doubt Microsoft will want Apple getting a cut. (aka it will be free and then you sign in). And it won't be as full featured as the RT version, but it will probably be as good as the stuff on skydrive.com.
So are there any reviews of the pro yet? The only thing I am interested in is a tablet that can run my current windows apps I really want to know how well it works before jumping in.
Surface with Windows 8 Pro won't be releasing for another 3 months. It hasn't been seen anywhere outside of the original announcement in June. I am still waiting on some reviews of other Windows 8 tablets though (atom ones mainly). shit needs to hurry up.
 

Totakeke

Member
Now we know why people weren't allowed to handle the devices earlier because it would have shattered the illusion of what the real experience is like instead of the one Microsoft built. I hope the negative reviews teach them that it's not a good idea to keep things secretive until the last possible minute and now I fear for Windows Phone 8.

I think the review is most telling when it says that it doesn't do anything better than the iPad or the Nexus 7. When you're introducing a new unproven product and then pricing it in the upper tier it better be the best or equal to the competition which it doesn't look like it is.

I have Windows 8 installed in 4 machines and I like it but the WinRT versions are too limited and the store is as barren as everyone says it is. How they didn't push XBOX Live or pay the money out to get the major apps is beyond me as apps is usually the thing that users gauge an ecosystem by. Very disappointed in the product and guess we'll have to wait until Surface Pro or V2 or V3 to see what it can really do.

They didn't let people handle the hardware because the hardware is actually great? You're not making sense.
 

Razdek

Banned
They didn't let people handle the hardware because the hardware is actually great? You're not making sense.

I meant because the software isn't up to par with the hardware and also the touch and type covers are not as good as Microsoft claims them to be.
 

Totakeke

Member
I meant because the software isn't up to par with the hardware and also the touch and type covers are not as good as Microsoft claims them to be.

So far the reviews mostly say the covers are better than expected and even the ones that dont do not say they're bad. As for the software, we can pretty much tell from using windows 8.
 

f0lken

Member
After reading more than 10 reviews, in my opinion this is worth considering, a lot of the drawbacks are things that if MS doesn't fuck up should improve with updates rendering most complaints moot, I am talking about performance, bugs, and especially the number of apps, will it do it? Hopefully, but is definitely doable, and it is most probably what it will happen. Now, the Surface has one big flaw and it is its screen, I hoped it would fare better, but all reviewers agree: is good, but as Joshua said in his review "Not all the tech in the world can substitute pixels that aren't there", and its true, maybe its the fault of the Tegra but not having 1080p in this is bad.

All in all 7s and 8s are pretty good, especially because as I said, most faults are not really faults as they are thing that are not quite yet refined but if MS doesn't drop the ball they wll be refined soon, one sign of this is the update last week and just today I had to update more than 20 apps, pretty good I think.
 

jagowar

Member
One thing you shouldn't overlook if you get a surface (or really any Windows 8/RT tablet) - in PC Settings, there's the option When I swipe in from the left edge, switch directly to my most recent app:

FvPlw.png


DISABLE IT!!

It brings up the task switcher immediately on swipe-in instead of needing to do a weird swipe in/out gesture.

Just to clarify (since I don't get surface until launch day) setting that will not do that cycle through your apps from the left edge but instead go straight to the "windowed" look showing all the open apps? If so that may be worth adding to the op.... to me that's a vastly better way to do multitasking.
Right-Charm-In-Windows8.png
 

rodvik

Member
Surface with Windows 8 Pro won't be releasing for another 3 months. It hasn't been seen anywhere outside of the original announcement in June. I am still waiting on some reviews of other Windows 8 tablets though (atom ones mainly). shit needs to hurry up.

Ah ok thanks. Didnt know that. How strange.
 

Razdek

Banned
So far the reviews mostly say the covers are better than expected and even the ones that dont do not say they're bad. As for the software, we can pretty much tell from using windows 8.

If you read the review they say that Microsoft told them it could take days to get used to typing on the covers and that doesn't sound very intuitive at all. For something to be successful it should just work without a steep learning curve.

I know I sound critical but I really want Microsoft to do well in the tablet/phone space but they're not even close to catching up with Apple or Google there and with missteps like this they'll always be behind.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
If you read the review they say that Microsoft told them it could take days to get used to typing on the covers and that doesn't sound very intuitive at all. For something to be successful it should just work without a steep learning curve.

I know I sound critical but I really want Microsoft to do well in the tablet/phone space but they're not even close to catching up with Apple or Google there and with missteps like this they'll always be behind.
its the same as typing on glass. it takes time to get better at it.
 

Totakeke

Member
If you read the review they say that Microsoft told them it could take days to get used to typing on the covers and that doesn't sound very intuitive at all. For something to be successful it should just work without a steep learning curve.

I know I sound critical but I really want Microsoft to do well in the tablet/phone space but they're not even close to catching up with Apple or Google there and with missteps like this they'll always be behind.

But you said Microsoft was intending to mislead, which isn't true. Microsoft did say it'll take a couple of days to get used to it and you should be able to get ~50wpm. Some reviews say that they managed to go up to ~70wpm.
 

Razdek

Banned
After reading more than 10 reviews, in my opinion this is worth considering, a lot of the drawbacks are things that if MS doesn't fuck up should improve with updates rendering most complaints moot, I am talking about performance, bugs, and especially the number of apps, will it do it? Hopefully, but is definitely doable, and it is most probably what it will happen. Now, the Surface has one big flaw and it is its screen, I hoped it would fare better, but all reviewers agree: is good, but as Joshua said in his review "Not all the tech in the world can substitute pixels that aren't there", and its true, maybe its the fault of the Tegra but not having 1080p in this is bad.

All in all 7s and 8s are pretty good, especially because as I said, most faults are not really faults as they are thing that are not quite yet refined but if MS doesn't drop the ball they wll be refined soon, one sign of this is the update last week and just today I had to update more than 20 apps, pretty good I think.

I hope that's the case and that they iterate on it quick to fix the issues but we also said that about Windows Phone and look how that turned out. Granted Windows is not Windows Phone so there will be more money put into it but when deciding on spending $500+ it should be on the here and now and not what potentially could be. Especially when there is strong competition everywhere.
 
right click in the bing news application and you can bring up a new York times section


yeah I stay in desktop mode most of the time on my....desktop which also has more than one monitor. As for the multi-monitor stuff, I think that is the weakest stuff out of the whole OS. The corner UIs are better than they were in the CP and RP but you still have to train yourself to hit them on a multi-monitor setup. As for the start screen behavior, it always opens in the last place you used any of the metro functions. Even if that is accessing the charms bar on one screen (both side bars are accessible on any screen). And the start screen and its applications are only limited to one screen. (btw if you are having trouble snapping applications, right click in the task switcher. there are options for "snap to the right or left".) Also I suggest increasing your mouse speed.

I just don't get why I can't have 2 "1/3" metro apps open due to having 2 monitors.

fuck, why can't I have 3 "1/3" metro apps on 1 screen at this point? Multitasking.

Maybe win9 :(
 

Troll

Banned
From ZDnet

And to answer an oft-asked question: Yes, the kickstand/keyboard combination works extremely well when balanced in one’s lap
.


Well, looks like I'm just going to have to try it for myself.


e: Wow, ZDnet really liked it.

Conclusion

For a first-generation product, the Surface with Windows RT is astonishingly polished. It’s not a replacement for a full-strength PC, but as a companion device that offers light weight, excellent entertainment options, and the ability to use full-featured Office apps, it’s irresistible.

I also expect the ecosystem around the Surface, notably productivity apps, to improve by leaps and bounds in the next year or so. This is a product that will get better with age.

Enthusiastically recommended.
 

f0lken

Member
I hope that's the case and that they iterate on it quick to fix the issues but we also said that about Windows Phone and look how that turned out. Granted Windows is not Windows Phone so there will be more money put into it but when deciding on spending $500+ it should be on the here and now and not what potentially could be. Especially when there is strong competition everywhere.

I'd say with full confidence that there have been more updates to fix things in the yet unreleased Windows 8 than for WP in its 2 years out, so yes. Windows 8 and RT are on another level of importance for MS is not even funny, and as I said here and now I received update notifications on more than 20 apps today, not counting this last days, and if you are buying a Surface you have here and now Office and a better typing experience than on any other tablet as most reviewers agree.

I just don't get why I can't have 2 "1/3" metro apps open due to having 2 monitors.

fuck, why can't I have 3 "1/3" metro apps on 1 screen at this point? Multitasking.

Maybe win9 :(

I would really like an update that allows for multitasking on 1/4 of screen per app, it wouldn't even have to change the aspect ratio of the apps since it will be the same 16:9 just smaller.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
I just don't get why I can't have 2 "1/3" metro apps open due to having 2 monitors.

fuck, why can't I have 3 "1/3" metro apps on 1 screen at this point? Multitasking.

Maybe win9 :(
Microsoft is going to update this a lot faster than normal windows versions. they are not waiting around for 3 years. So I would expect a big update next year or even 6 months from now.
 

dLMN8R

Member
Just to clarify (since I don't get surface until launch day) setting that will not do that cycle through your apps from the left edge but instead go straight to the "windowed" look showing all the open apps? If so that may be worth adding to the op.... to me that's a vastly better way to do multitasking.
Right-Charm-In-Windows8.png

Yeah, that's the UI I'm talking about.

I get why the default is what it is, since it's the simplest thing to do for most users, but for me and I'm betting most people in this thread, you'll definitely want to disable the option.
 

Razdek

Banned
I just don't get why I can't have 2 "1/3" metro apps open due to having 2 monitors.

fuck, why can't I have 3 "1/3" metro apps on 1 screen at this point? Multitasking.

Maybe win9 :(

Yea multi-monitor is really bad in W8 but what's worse is remote desk-topping from one W8 computer to another W8. If you use the metro Remote Desktop good luck on getting any of the hot corners to work on the computer you're remote desk-topping into as it will presume you mean your local machine.

If you use the desktop Remote Desktop app then you at least have a drop-down to do the actions but it still isn't perfect.
 

Razdek

Banned
I'd say with full confidence that there have been more updates to fix things in the yet unreleased Windows 8 than for WP in its 2 years out, so yes. Windows 8 and RT are on another level of importance for MS is not even funny, and as I said here and now I received update notifications on more than 20 apps today, not counting this last days, and if you are buying a Surface you have here and now Office and a better typing experience than on any other tablet as most reviewers agree.



I would really like an update that allows for multitasking on 1/4 of screen per app, it wouldn't even have to change the aspect ratio of the apps since it will be the same 16:9 just smaller.

I hope so and get those important apps in that store ASAP. Yea I get those notifications too but it would be nice if there's a change log of the updates so I can at least see what is being updated. They should allow us to resize the snap anyway we want to instead of having it split up the way it is.
 
After reading through a half dozen or so of these reviews, it's amazing how completely contradictory some of the information is. Touch cover only works on tables; touch cover works great in laps. Colors are cool; colors are warm. IE10 is bad; IE10 is great.

Seriously, more and more I am of the belief that the only way to know for sure if it is for you is to go use it for a good 15-30 minutes. There are some facts that are undeniable, but these reviews are just so inconsistent that it's clear that opinions, agendas and biases are clouding the truth.
 

Troll

Banned
Okay, how people can say it doesn't work on the lap?

The girl wasn't even trying to use it on their lap and it seemed good.

I can see not always being the optimum angle, but to say it doesn't work, period, feels an extreme exaggeration after that video...

I hadn't even noticed that. I have no idea how that isn't exactly how you would hope it would work.


The way that kid scratches the touch cover really bothers me for some reason :p
 
Okay, how people can say it doesn't work on the lap?

The girl wasn't even trying to use it on their lap and it seemed good.

I can see not always being the optimum angle, but to say it doesn't work, period, feels an extreme exaggeration after that video...

+1

Give me the apps Microsoft. Build quality is strong enough, UI is interesting enough....GIVE ME MY ESPN and a first party book reader on the level of ibooks.
 

dLMN8R

Member
I don't get it... why do they keep desktop mode on windows RT?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6387/asus-vivotab-rt-review/3

And that’s what’s important to remember with Windows RT - beneath Modern UI, it’s still just Windows. Same file structure, same control panel, same task manager. If you don’t want to use it, you almost never have to see it - there’s very few workflows that require desktop mode to be used (Office 2013, which runs in the desktop, can be fullscreened to block the rest of Windows out). But if you want the control and power that you typically get in a normal PC, it’s all still here for you. It’s incredibly reassuring - this works just like every computer I’ve owned since my first Gateway 2000 back in 1996, at the tender age of 5. It’s just Windows, except with a touch-screen UI on top of it.


Mainly because Office is way too beastly for there to have been time to convert it all to Metro. Also, multi-windowed stuff is much more important for Office than most other applications. And there's still a lot of stuff in Control Panel, Task Manager, and other utilities that give you a lot of power if you so choose to use it.

I love having it there. It lets me do more complicated things I've done for years in the exact same way I've always done, such as copying files over the network or managing files in other ways. But as the reviews say, it's easy to ignore entirely.
 
What's wrong with Kindle? Honestly I prefer it over iBooks on my iPad.

I've read two reviews that mentioned it and both said the app didn't function correctly.

If Microsoft is doing this they need to bring their software expertise to play...or at least buy a company that has a good book reading app and make them port it to RT.
 

dLMN8R

Member
What's wrong with Kindle? Honestly I prefer it over iBooks on my iPad.

Oh god the Kindle app is fucking HORRIBLE on Windows RT. It's bafflingly slow, like, incomprehensibly slow and practically unusable. I saw there was an update in the Store for it today, so we'll see if that fixes things, but it's gotten a few updates over the last couple weeks that haven't fixed it. I'm not optimistic.
 

Troll

Banned
I've read two reviews that mentioned it and both said the app didn't function correctly.

If Microsoft is doing this they need to bring their software expertise to play...or at least buy a company that has a good book reading app and make them port it to RT.

That sort of happened already.


Nook Media.


The companies also announced that a Windows 8 app for Nook Media content is currently in the works.





Oh god the Kindle app is fucking HORRIBLE on Windows RT. It's bafflingly slow, like, incomprehensibly slow and practically unusable. I saw there was an update in the Store for it today, so we'll see if that fixes things, but it's gotten a few updates over the last couple weeks that haven't fixed it. I'm not optimistic.

That really sucks because I enjoy using it on iOS.
 
Man, tech journalism is a joke nowadays. It's unbeleivable how much praise an iDevice with the same, if not more negative points gets, but Surface is beeing hammered into the ground because it's a 'premium' device. Oh the irony..
 
Man, tech journalism is a joke nowadays. It's unbeleivable how much praise an iDevice with the same, if not more negative points gets, but Surface is beeing hammered into the ground because it's a 'premium' device. Oh the irony..
weird, from what i read so far, they do seem mostly happy with the hardware.

new OS naturally has kinks and empty app store is a given.

All I know is if win8 holds up in a year, i'll probably get a Surface pro (probably 2nd gen).
 

markot

Banned
My biggest problem is really the resolution. I dont get why they all make widescreen tablets these days, at least Android and windows wise. And the small resolution means viewing webpages in portrait wont work that well >.<

I actually prefer portrait for reading stuff and viewing web pages!

I dont get this 'content consumption' angle, which is presumable why they go wide screen, so that videos look better I guess? But how many people watch videos on their tablets compared to just surfing the net? If I want to watch videos, I have a big ass tv and moniter >.>
 
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