Spectromixer
Member
Millennials vs. Gen X is a weird title/theme.
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Survivor 32: Kaôh Rng |OT| Anything that can Kaôh Rng, will.
- Thread starter Grexeno
- Start date
Aubry and Cydney are two of my favorite players and favorite characters in recent memory....and I didn't like Michele at all and found Tai sorta overrated (funny and compelling, but his erratic style also irritated me honestly), so a Michele win and a Tai fan favorite prize is no bueno for me. Ah well. I still enjoyed the season.
I actually think the show has gone down a bad road of deceptive editing. I thought there was a good chance Michele would win, but only if Aubry got tragically cut before the final council. I could buy the narrative of the season as an Aubry win, or as Aubry not making the end and Michele beating Tai, but Aubry losing to Michele just didn't really have a foundation in the story IMO. They did the same thing last season laying on a super thick "Spencer has grown as a human and now makes the personal relationships he needs!" arc.......and then he got to the end and no one liked him still. I think they value "surprise" over coherency at this point, and I don't like it.
I actually think the show has gone down a bad road of deceptive editing. I thought there was a good chance Michele would win, but only if Aubry got tragically cut before the final council. I could buy the narrative of the season as an Aubry win, or as Aubry not making the end and Michele beating Tai, but Aubry losing to Michele just didn't really have a foundation in the story IMO. They did the same thing last season laying on a super thick "Spencer has grown as a human and now makes the personal relationships he needs!" arc.......and then he got to the end and no one liked him still. I think they value "surprise" over coherency at this point, and I don't like it.
Wow @ those ponderosa / jury speaks videos!
Scot / Jason / Julia were so awful and bitter... it's clear that they equated Aubry with Cydney and refused to even consider her for the title. That Cydney Ponderosa video is just a pathetic display of immature behavior... I hope none of that trio is ever asked back on the show, because they don't seem worthy of our attention.
Given this information, the Michele win makes more sense... and it becomes more obvious why the editors might not have had the material to explain it to us.
Scot / Jason / Julia were so awful and bitter... it's clear that they equated Aubry with Cydney and refused to even consider her for the title. That Cydney Ponderosa video is just a pathetic display of immature behavior... I hope none of that trio is ever asked back on the show, because they don't seem worthy of our attention.
Given this information, the Michele win makes more sense... and it becomes more obvious why the editors might not have had the material to explain it to us.
This isn't deceptive editing, it's the editors/production enraged by the result and refusing to give it any dignity.
This is the first time in 32 seasons we've seen a winner treated like this. Fabio, Jenna M, Sophie, Natalie W- all had their wins validated in the editing bay.
Michele's was "explained" - but they clearly did not agree with the Jury's verdict.
Hmmm, any chance they edit the show without knowing the final result?
Now, seriously. This is a season that shows how important and influential Ponderosa interactions can be.
The positive thing is that I hope this tones down the winners edit talk on the next threads. Or that at least, keeps people second guessing.
Now, seriously. This is a season that shows how important and influential Ponderosa interactions can be.
The positive thing is that I hope this tones down the winners edit talk on the next threads. Or that at least, keeps people second guessing.
Zero chance.
The reason this season drove people nuts is because there were two threads. One was Michele's, the other was Aubry's, and the editors severely disliked Michele.
I wish they'd go back to sequestering Ponderosa.
The edit for the season is literally "the jury's opinion is bad and they should feel bad and we're never ever asking them back ever"
matthewwhatever
Member
Okay, I've had time to sleep on it, and digested it a little more, and...yep, still hate it. A nonsensical garbage ending that, for me, ruined a season I'd absolutely loved up to that point. I'm used to deceptive edits in the previews, but a whole season built around a deceptive edit is too much.
Who's asking they show anything twice? I'd have been happy if they'd shown the important stuff once.
Who's asking they show anything twice? I'd have been happy if they'd shown the important stuff once.
I didn't watch a single Ponderosa video and yet knew why Scott and Jason were bitter, so did others. But people can keep calling "deceptive editing" when it wasn't.
Scott and Jason cheering for Aubry at the fire making challenge was so that Cydney would be out not that they were supporting Aubry, again something many people here failed to read.
User 479360
Banned
Neal's leaving comments. Ouch.
Same goes for some of the things said at tribal.
Same goes for some of the things said at tribal.
It's the producers' jobs to GET THE MATERIAL. So if the producers are aware of the bitter reception at Ponderosa, they need to include Jury Confessionals during the finale, or explain better why Aubry loses their votes.
They also need to get the material from Michele about how she's an underdog who is fighting to win to pay for her future medical degree, etc. etc.
They COULD have included this material, but didn't.
I really hate when floaters win this game, but I understand why they do. I can't completely hate on Michelle though because she won the final immunity challenge when it counted. What I really can't stand are the floaters who don't do shit, don't win shit, and still end up at the finals.
So are Aubrey and Cochran going to hook up or what?
So are Aubrey and Cochran going to hook up or what?
Firstly, can I just say that Michele was not a floater. At her first Tribal Council (not her fault for constantly winning!) she worked herself into the majority and planned to vote Aubry out (whom she immediately and correctly identified as her biggest competition).
Then she got unlucky when Neal was medevaced before Tribal, completely saving Aubry.
From then on, Michele was constantly in the minority, and rather than overplaying, rather than trying to put her neck on the line for Nick, or Julia, etc., she used a bit of Sandra's "anyone but me" to navigate to near the top, especially through her bond with Cydney, which was key.
And she won THREE individual immunity/advantage challenges.
I just think the editors did a bad job of showing how Michele's "floating" since the merge disaster was wiser than Aubry's number-crunching.
Yep. Aubry even agreed that Michele was a huge threat, but I have a feeling Cydney was quite dead-set on working with Michele, and so the target stayed on Jason.
Michele has to get credit for fostering such a strong bond with Cydney, such that she stuck her leg out for her, and for not appearing too much like a threat in a game where people are flipping left and right as soon as someone looks threatening.
lazyproblems
Member
Yes, when you look at things now, you can see what Michele had to do to win. She did articulate what she did in her jury speech, and I think that her win speaks to her social game (and against Aubry's). I don't think she's a bad winner, but you can definitely feel that Jeff and/or the editors just outright hated this win.
In many ways this win does remind me of Natalie White, and I thought the editors were trying to leave that sort of thing behind. And before someone says it, I agree that they showed Russell as more detestable, but I definitely get the feeling that this was another spiteful edit.
Finally back on desktop, so I'll post a comprehensive post while covering most of the grievances in this thread.
Michelle won 4 challenges, including the final challenge AND the challenge where she knocked out the most bitter jury member - Neil. Both the wins plus her pick proved she played theright perfect game of the remaining three. She wasnt actively involved in the ousting and while Cydney and Aubry did most of dirty work with Tai pitching in at fleeting moments. When her head was on the chopping block, she was more active back at camp influencing people as well as she spoke out very well at the TC. She successfully cast doubts on Tai's intent and Aubry flipped. This is besides making a strong bond with Cydney. What people fail to realize is that Cydney took most of the blame for the ousting and Aubry looked like she was her right hand man. Michelle was open to some extent to listening to Scott/Jason which these two miserably failed at.
Aubry won a grand total of 1 challenge, which laughably she tried to sell to the jury when she shouldnt have, it just highlighted that she had barely won something while Michelle had her beat convincingly on that front as well. Aubry was erratic and neurotic, even Cydney knew that which is why she voted Michelle. I also dont get the "misleading edit" that people seem to be whining on, none of the edits that Aubry got portrayed her in much positive light, most of it was "oh, look at poor me, I lost another ally due to medivac, boohoo". As far as I remember, the only good edit Aubry got was she she backstabbed Tai and then apologized to "win" him back. If anything there were too many of Tai's "good edits" where they played up his "all life forms matter", which is understandable since Jeff mentioned that was a big resonating point with the viewers. Compare this to the two immunity wins that Michelle had to win to stay in the game, the vote where Tai's advantage went to waste, the final immunity win and the final advantage win, there was a lot of footage in her favor but I guess people had their minds set on a nerd winning. What were people expecting, a sob story? Oh look at me, I'm so neurotic or had abuse in my life, or pity me for some other reason? Early on when Michelle was with Nick, they showed her intentionally playing dumb. People need to remember that winners on Survivor are not there because its their catharsis, Michelle needed none of that. It wasnt like Spencer playing a second time to prove his social skills or Cochrane playing a second time to prove he had a brain.
I dont even need to talk about why Tai didnt win, that's quite obvious.
Michelle won 4 challenges, including the final challenge AND the challenge where she knocked out the most bitter jury member - Neil. Both the wins plus her pick proved she played the
Aubry won a grand total of 1 challenge, which laughably she tried to sell to the jury when she shouldnt have, it just highlighted that she had barely won something while Michelle had her beat convincingly on that front as well. Aubry was erratic and neurotic, even Cydney knew that which is why she voted Michelle. I also dont get the "misleading edit" that people seem to be whining on, none of the edits that Aubry got portrayed her in much positive light, most of it was "oh, look at poor me, I lost another ally due to medivac, boohoo". As far as I remember, the only good edit Aubry got was she she backstabbed Tai and then apologized to "win" him back. If anything there were too many of Tai's "good edits" where they played up his "all life forms matter", which is understandable since Jeff mentioned that was a big resonating point with the viewers. Compare this to the two immunity wins that Michelle had to win to stay in the game, the vote where Tai's advantage went to waste, the final immunity win and the final advantage win, there was a lot of footage in her favor but I guess people had their minds set on a nerd winning. What were people expecting, a sob story? Oh look at me, I'm so neurotic or had abuse in my life, or pity me for some other reason? Early on when Michelle was with Nick, they showed her intentionally playing dumb. People need to remember that winners on Survivor are not there because its their catharsis, Michelle needed none of that. It wasnt like Spencer playing a second time to prove his social skills or Cochrane playing a second time to prove he had a brain.
I dont even need to talk about why Tai didnt win, that's quite obvious.
User 479360
Banned
Wow, Michelle won. I wouldn't have expected that when this started or even several weeks ago.
Good for her. She didn't play a bad game, and I liked her. Plus, holy shit she looked great at the reunion. But, Aubrey was more deserving. Tai did more in the game, too, but was very divisive/offensive in ways with it.
The Sia part was weird. Her wig or whatnot -- never seen that before. I thought it was her regular hair in videos? I know next to nothing about her.
I thought they had Mark.
Good for her. She didn't play a bad game, and I liked her. Plus, holy shit she looked great at the reunion. But, Aubrey was more deserving. Tai did more in the game, too, but was very divisive/offensive in ways with it.
The Sia part was weird. Her wig or whatnot -- never seen that before. I thought it was her regular hair in videos? I know next to nothing about her.
I thought they had Mark.
MaybeBurger
Banned
I wonder if Tai wasn't unable to properly speak; that he would win the vote. I would have voted him to win based on the gameplay. Him or Aubry. Probably leaning more toward Aubry. Michelle winning is a bit WTF but she did have A lot of beauty on the jury.
RepairmanJack
Member
I don't think being able to convey his feelings would have much helped Tai. He was teetering too much back and forth between his feelings in the game and wanting to win and he didn't own up to it when he could and tried to sell it as he only flipped once. He also had a bunch of jury confrontation about flipping back and forth and backstabbing and then immediately made a speech about not needing to backstab in the world. He was just not very aware of social situations. Being able to better convey what he feels wouldn't really help that much.
But Natalie was still protected, and you understood why people werent willing to vote for Russ. This is something else entirely.
I though it was a pretty obvious winner for a few weeks. Although obviously from a viewer perspective we could have been happier with Aubrey or Cyd.
I think editors simply decided who they'd like back on the show and edited the season based on that being a factor.
They could have edited the show differently but in the end there are winners which I think Survivor doesn't want back. I'm sure they would have preferred anyone else in the final 4 winning but in the end that doesn't matter since Survivor is not about who editors want to win and this is what makes Survivor good TV. Aubrey's game tanked due to a medevac but she was also in the game due to a medevac. I'm sure if Aubrey had her Joe/Tai final three or if she was sitting next to Cyd/Tai she would have won.
Michele simply had less animosity from the jury and was able to rid of a sure vote for Aubrey at the end.
I think editors simply decided who they'd like back on the show and edited the season based on that being a factor.
They could have edited the show differently but in the end there are winners which I think Survivor doesn't want back. I'm sure they would have preferred anyone else in the final 4 winning but in the end that doesn't matter since Survivor is not about who editors want to win and this is what makes Survivor good TV. Aubrey's game tanked due to a medevac but she was also in the game due to a medevac. I'm sure if Aubrey had her Joe/Tai final three or if she was sitting next to Cyd/Tai she would have won.
Michele simply had less animosity from the jury and was able to rid of a sure vote for Aubrey at the end.
User 479360
Banned
The name of the new season is kind of cringeworthy, as were some of the things said in the promo. The cast looks to be annoying.
Joeys_Rattata
Neo Member
Michele winning was pretty clear for awhile now tbh. Like, from the swap onwards.
Aubry's arc was amazing and compelling, but there were a lot of red flags that the editing team would never show in a winner. Her edit was always closer to Lisa Whelchel's than anyone else's. Overwhelmed and emotional in the beginning before turning into the strategic power player of the season.
It was a story of growth, not of winning. The edgic community (who tries to figure out the winner based on the edit) had Michele as their top pick for winning after episode 6.
Aubry's arc was amazing and compelling, but there were a lot of red flags that the editing team would never show in a winner. Her edit was always closer to Lisa Whelchel's than anyone else's. Overwhelmed and emotional in the beginning before turning into the strategic power player of the season.
It was a story of growth, not of winning. The edgic community (who tries to figure out the winner based on the edit) had Michele as their top pick for winning after episode 6.
lazyproblems
Member
I said reminds me, not that it's exactly alike. As I said, they definitely made Russell's boorishness and Mick's fecklessness much more clear.
Still, I do think that they're somewhat similar. The editors hated the winner that largely relied on strategies that weren't flashy or dominant and did the bare minimum to show them.
Joeys_Rattata
Neo Member
Also: Michele was shown. She had 57 total confessionals, the third highest for this season, only beaten by Aubry and Tai. She was only really absent from three episodes - three of the four pre swap episodes. After that she was present in every episode.
For comparison: Natalie White had 15 confessionals during the entire season, was either completely ignored or under the radar in 8 of the 14 episodes
Michele had more confessionals explaining her game than ANYONE in Cambodia.
Pro tip, next time someone controls the game but cries every other episode because of how hard the game is, they're not winning. They're Amanda, Sugar, Stephen, Chase, Lisa. And now Aubry. They're the runner up who plays a large role in shaping the outcome of the game but ultimately loses.
The editors don't like showing the winner crying and talking about how much of a toll the game is taking on their emotions.
Edit: Michele just doesn't give very compelling confessionals. She's very monotone, almost stoner esque. Aubry is a great speaker, and obviously her confessionals about her game had more oomph, while Michele's were more subdued, but Michele was always there talking about her being a strong, independent woman who was playing a strong social game and maneuvering from alliance to alliance.
Much like Danni Boatright tbh
For comparison: Natalie White had 15 confessionals during the entire season, was either completely ignored or under the radar in 8 of the 14 episodes
Michele had more confessionals explaining her game than ANYONE in Cambodia.
Pro tip, next time someone controls the game but cries every other episode because of how hard the game is, they're not winning. They're Amanda, Sugar, Stephen, Chase, Lisa. And now Aubry. They're the runner up who plays a large role in shaping the outcome of the game but ultimately loses.
The editors don't like showing the winner crying and talking about how much of a toll the game is taking on their emotions.
Edit: Michele just doesn't give very compelling confessionals. She's very monotone, almost stoner esque. Aubry is a great speaker, and obviously her confessionals about her game had more oomph, while Michele's were more subdued, but Michele was always there talking about her being a strong, independent woman who was playing a strong social game and maneuvering from alliance to alliance.
Much like Danni Boatright tbh
But the editing, the editing.Michele winning was pretty clear for awhile now tbh. Like, from the swap onwards.
Aubry's arc was amazing and compelling, but there were a lot of red flags that the editing team would never show in a winner. Her edit was always closer to Lisa Whelchel's than anyone else's. Overwhelmed and emotional in the beginning before turning into the strategic power player of the season.
It was a story of growth, not of winning. The edgic community (who tries to figure out the winner based on the edit) had Michele as their top pick for winning after episode 6.
The producers and Jeff were so upset they are asking Michelle to pay them $1 mil back.
On a serious note, just because people didnt like the winner or think they "read the editing", they think the producers are upset at the result.
They deliberately undermined the winner. They could have made the win "feel" better to the audience. They actively chose to do the opposite.
Over 31 prior seasons, that never happened previously.
But that's not the case, I and apparently a lot others saw Michelle's rise and setup pretty obvious. Like I said earlier, Michelle didnt have a sob story because she didnt need one.
And that hyperbole again, just relook at Sandra.
What about Sandra? Sandra didn't get shit on.
Yes, the setup was there. They also made sure to undermine Michele numerous times to make her look bad. It's not even a hollow edit, it's one where they actively decided to go in on her, which is why the Aubry/Michele war was going on, because Michele got a runner up edit even though she was the winner and vice versa. They are incredibly protective of winners. This is an insane anomaly due to the way the season ends.
It's not hard to read into production intent (kick the audience in the balls) when you look at the reaction to the season and that's exactly what people are describing.
What did they do to make Michelle look bad several times? Michelle getting the "runner up edit" is as per you and a few other Aubry diehards in this thread. I'm not the only one as others also saw Michelle getting setup to win quite clearly. The chart posted above which shows the predicted winners based on editing also backs that up. Just because the editing make you like Aubry more (maybe she resonates with a particular group well) doesn't mean they intentionally undermined the audience.
The notion that Jeff wasn't happy so they intentionally botched the edit job is hilarious.
"You don't need to practice fire"
"F Tai"
Ruining the mood in a segment about Jason's family when they're visiting adorable animals.
"Michele is clueless about Julia"
"Joe going is good for me"
They wanted the audience to be pissed and confused when she won. The fan reaction was exactly their intent.
Yes, it was the "winner edit", but it had a very specific goal, and that goal was NOT to protect the winner, as they had done in 31 prior seasons. Editing is storytelling, and they were telling a real specific story here that they hadn't before.
Joeys_Rattata
Neo Member
When did they decide to go in on Michele? The only time I can think of was when Aubry said that Michele was oblivious to Julia's true intentions.
Other than that, whenever she messed up, she always got to explain herself. When she lost a challenge for her tribe, she got to explain why she messed up and what she was doing to fix it. When Aubry messed up a challenge? We got a confessional of her crying and saying she always makes bad decisions.
The edit called Aubry a mess after episode 1. Everyone called Aubry a mess throughout the game. The edit showed Aubry as wishy washy and indecisive, going as far as showing Scot berating her for it after the Peter vote.
Michele never got anything like that. Michele's content was always her explaining her position in the game and her strategy going forward. From being part of the girls alliance on beauty, to letting Nick feel like he's in control, to siding with the women post merge, to finally stepping up and taking control of the game with the Julia vote.
A fan favorite lost in a jury vote. It happens, people get angry. It hasn't happened for some time, but it happens. Kelly losing to Richard, Clay losing to Brian, Boston Rob losing to Amber, Russell losing to Natalie. And now Aubry lost to Michele.
Just because Aubry was a lot better at delivering confessionals and had a flashier game doesn't mean the edit went out of their way to make Michele seem bad. I'd argue it went out of its way to make Aubry look bad with her constant self doubt and breakdowns being shown, stuff that could have easily been left out.
RepairmanJack
Member
I feel like there wasn't much undermining Michelle honestly. They didn't show her in a great light but there was multiple times where it showed her social game got her out of situations. Voting out her strongest ally, Tai wanting her out and nobody going along with it, her being able to talk down Tai and the whole jury seeming on her side at that tribal. Her social game was shown pretty well throughout the game.
Explaining the winner is not the same as justifying the winner. In prior seasons, they make it crystal clear why the end results happens in a way that the audience can be content with. Burnett's said Survivor is edited as a morality play, and there's usually some moral to the story that justifies the end result. They did not do that here. They actively went with "this is fucked up." The moral of the story is Jason's Ep7 comment. Aubry was fucked and could not do a thing about it, unbenknownst to her. (Jeff's EW interview seems to argue this line as well.)
They could have made Michele more likable to the audience. Included personal stuff like Jeremy's family segments. They declined. Michele was kept cold and at an arm's distance. This is not an accident. The audience would have been thrilled with any of the other three winning. They could have given Michele the editing grease they gave winners like Natalie W and Danni. They didn't.
edit: Nick apparently the second Aubry vote, not Debbie.
They could have made Michele more likable to the audience. Included personal stuff like Jeremy's family segments. They declined. Michele was kept cold and at an arm's distance. This is not an accident. The audience would have been thrilled with any of the other three winning. They could have given Michele the editing grease they gave winners like Natalie W and Danni. They didn't.
edit: Nick apparently the second Aubry vote, not Debbie.
Mega Man's Electric Sheep
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt-8HPq50o8
Cydney's Ponderosa video. Proving that Jason and Scott have the maturity of a 12-year-old, if that. What shitheads they are. That grin Jason gets when he explains the shitty thing he's doing is ugggghhhhh. Oh, and Julia's pathetic too, but she at least has the excuse of still being close to the age that people do cliquey bullshit like that. Scott's 41. Jason's 31. Time to evolve from high school bullies, boys!
Cydney's Ponderosa video. Proving that Jason and Scott have the maturity of a 12-year-old, if that. What shitheads they are. That grin Jason gets when he explains the shitty thing he's doing is ugggghhhhh. Oh, and Julia's pathetic too, but she at least has the excuse of still being close to the age that people do cliquey bullshit like that. Scott's 41. Jason's 31. Time to evolve from high school bullies, boys!
This is ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that Michelle undermined Cydney but telling her not to practice fire? She wanted Cydney in the final 3, which is why she stuck to her vote or she could have easily changed it and skipped the whole fire making challenge.
And what do you mean by ruining the mood in the monkey cage? It just showed that she had her thinking cap on even during a reward and wasnt swayed by an emotional backstory. She was Aubry without the neurotic breakdown and fits. It was also quite easy to read Aubry and hard to read Michelle. Like Cydney knew right away when Tai and Aubry were bringing water that some shit had gone down. Joe going was good for Michelle, her tears were genuine but she was able to again separate the game from emotion and tell it like it is. Cydney knew what the outcome was when Joe was slobbering the shit down and she didnt say anything. That's fine I guess, by your standards.
Again, the only people pissed her the Aubry diehards. I dont see any uproar or any controversy. I keep referencing Sandra's win because she wasnt edited out to be a tough competitor, she was some one who slipped her way through by being non threatening. Michelle was threatening towards the end when she had to win and she won. That is what counts. Again if you are looking for a sob story or justification of why Michelle needs the money and won, then obviously you are watching the wrong show.
Gosh, some people are having a really hard time reconciling the result of the show with their expectations.
I missed the finale (didn't even know there was one) how in the flying fuck did Michele win?!? She did absolutely nothing all season, legit with that final 3 I have no idea how Aubry lost she was by far the best of the 3 and because Tai kept turning on people he wasn't going to get votes regardless. I'm at a loss for words, still a really good season though.
I am saying the editors were deliberately souring the audience on Michele in the last few episodes and in the finale itself. They deliberately did not give her personal connections to the audience like the other members of the F4 had.
To steal a phrase from Hannibal: This was their design.
Editing is storytelling. They chose to tell this story in a very specific way in order to guide the audience to a very specific conclusion, and the goal was NOT to make them satisfied with the winner.
To steal a phrase from Hannibal: This was their design.
No. This is dead wrong. Causal fans are upset and confused. Look at the comments in Dalton's recap. This is not an accident, the editing was engineered to provoke this reaction.
Editing is storytelling. They chose to tell this story in a very specific way in order to guide the audience to a very specific conclusion, and the goal was NOT to make them satisfied with the winner.
Case in point.
matthewwhatever
Member
With a lot of bland, innocuous promos, according to the people who are happy with and "predicted" her win.
Everyone else, though, has no idea, since they didn't show anything that led to her winning.
Mega Man's Electric Sheep
Member
Honestly, Michelle's win requires no further explanation than looking at what bitter shitheels Jason, Scott and Julia are. Michelle gets one more vote and boom (and she did). The editors were more interested in amping up the viewers for an Aubrey return than selling a Michelle win, which was never going to excite anybody. (the reaction of the 2 friends I watched it with as the votes were revealed: a low key "Huh. Really.")
SecretMoblin
Member
I missed the back half of the season due to lots of work- and life-related stuff (nothing bad) and saw social media going nuts last night lol
it'll be interesting to catch up and see how this mess happened... this is the first season I haven't been able to watch consistently in almost a decade :/
it'll be interesting to catch up and see how this mess happened... this is the first season I haven't been able to watch consistently in almost a decade :/
Cast complete a-holes, reap what you sow.
matthewwhatever
Member
This seems like the kind of thing they could've demonstrated in the context of the show, rather than making Ponderosa confessionals required watching.
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