SW Outlaws Dev: Game was Designed Around SSD's, Switch 2's Storage Card Not Fast Enough, Hence It's On a "Game Key Card"

Kurt said:
Lets not compare the micro express sd with blueray. If you look at the load times in between they are not far off. The cartridge speed would be fast enough (including cyberpunk) for most games, again unlike blueray.
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The micro sd card in Switch 2 is equivalent to installing a SSD in your PS5. You need to get a SSD with a certain speed rating to do so.
 
BlackTron said:
So let me get this straight -so Nintendo made a new type of game card that doesn't come in enough sizes, because they needed more speed. Thereby necessitating key cards.

But, it's not fast enough?
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Did they ever state that read speed was their reason for coming up with a new type of card? I haven't followed all the details, so if they did I missed it. That would be a really suspicious reason though given we're in the age of SSDs.
 
Kurt said:
Lets not compare the micro express sd with blueray. If you look at the load times in between they are not far off. The cartridge speed would be fast enough (including cyberpunk) for most games, again unlike blueray.
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Cyberpunk being made for PS4 with HDD surely made it easy to load off cartridge
 
Seems like a reasonable answer given the options Nintendo is providing third parties.
Also I know preservation is important, but will anyone really want to play the shittiest version of some 2024 Ubislop game in 20 years?

mckmas8808 said:
Okay, so not the end of the world. But yikes.....I still don't love this. Nintendo makes it tough on devs though by providing hardware that's slow though. But was there any option that Nintendo could have went with that could have given them over 2 GBs of read access speeds while using a cart or memory stick of any kind?
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The only option that comes to mind is offering third parties an option to use cheaper slow cards that basically just install the game on the internal storage (instead of having to download it). Basically have them work like discs on Ps5/SX.

Though I don't know what the wholesale price difference is between a regular Switch 2 card and a hypothetical one with the read speeds of a cheap SD card (let's say 80 mb/s)
 
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rm082e said:
Did they ever state that read speed was their reason for coming up with a new type of card? I haven't followed all the details, so if they did I missed it. That would be a really suspicious reason though given we're in the age of SSDs.
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They never stated it, but it's been observed that 1) Switch 2 has much faster storage, and 2) the cards are much faster than 1 cards, implying a need for closer parity so that games can run off either.

Then we also observe, that Macronix doesn't yet manufacture it in many sizes beyond only 64GB I believe. Making smaller games cost-prohibitive, and encouraging Switch 1 publishing really. Something that we know Nintendo is pushing right now.

All in all just really weird...
 
Why couldn't they put the game on the cart and just sideload anything that needs to be run from the ssd to the ssd directly from the cart? I get the need for the SSD, but the key card thing still just feels like digital with extra steps.
 
TheRedRiders said:
Mark Cerny smirking somewhere.
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Cerny overdelivered with PS5 SSD, it's much faster than needed. Almost all games run the same on XSX SSD that is less than half the speed. PS5 is more expensive to build thanks to that (and they are gutting SSDs in the newest Euro DE edition).

He expected games streaming directly from SSD, I doubt we will ever see this.

Sethbacca said:
Why couldn't they put the game on the cart and just sideload anything that needs to be run from the ssd to the ssd directly from the cart? I get the need for the SSD, but the key card thing still just feels like digital with extra steps.
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Yep, PS3 style - games were copying the most important data from Blu Ray to HDD.

They can even use fucking S1 carts to store game installs and install games from them on internal storage.

There are many options to avoid downloading the whole game but it seems Nintendo is not flexible and publishers want the cheapest option.
 
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Sethbacca said:
Why couldn't they put the game on the cart and just sideload anything that needs to be run from the ssd to the ssd directly from the cart? I get the need for the SSD, but the key card thing still just feels like digital with extra steps.
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Publishers still want to keep retail interested. That's the only reason physical still exists.
 
I wonder if Nintendo could allow games to be installed on the Switch 2 using the data on a game card. After installation the game card could then be used as a licence key. That's what happens for a lot of physical games on PS5. That'd solve the problem that SW Outlaws faced while allowing physical buyers to get what they want. But Nintendo likely want everyone to go digital so it's unlikely to happen.
 
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Bojji said:
Cerny overdelivered with PS5 SSD, it's much faster than needed. Almost all games run the same on XSX SSD that is less than half the speed. PS5 is more expensive to build thanks to that (and they are gutting SSDs in the newest Euro DE edition).

He expected games streaming directly from SSD, I doubt we will ever see this.
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It's just not about the SSD. PS5 has custom hardware to speed up load times and data transfer and devs don't use it because of the LCD issue.
 
diffusionx said:
It's just not about the SSD. PS5 has custom hardware to speed up load times and data transfer and devs don't use it because of the LCD issue.
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Xbox has hardware for that as well.

Even some Sony devs are not using PS5 I/O properly and games have loading times dependent on CPU, and only few third party games use it correctly (Capcom in RE series).
 
Bojji said:
Cerny overdelivered with PS5 SSD, it's much faster than needed. Almost all games run the same on XSX SSD that is less than half the speed. PS5 is more expensive to build thanks to that (and they are gutting SSDs in the newest Euro DE edition).

He expected games streaming directly from SSD, I doubt we will ever see thiss
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I can't find the article on a quick search right now but I distinctly remember DF mentioned in one of their articles earlier in the gen that UE5 needs something like 300MB/s for data streaming.

Both PS5 and SX are extremely comfortably over that in retrospect.
 
BlackTron said:
So let me get this straight -so Nintendo made a new type of game card that doesn't come in enough sizes, because they needed more speed. Thereby necessitating key cards.

But, it's not fast enough?
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I would look at it as, "This particular current gen game wasn't coded/designed to take advantage of the data streaming speeds of Switch 2 cards".

Hopefully, moving forward, most future games will actually take Switch 2 game card streaming speeds in mind and this won't be an issue, at all.
 
Gambit2483 said:
I would look at it as, "This particular current gen game wasn't coded/designed to take advantage of the data streaming speeds of Switch 2 cards".

Hopefully, moving forward, most future games will actually take Switch 2 game card streaming speeds in mind and this won't be an issue, at all.
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I'm looking at it, as vastly overestimating the speed of NS2 cards. I thought presumptuously it would have close parity with the internal storage.
 
BlackTron said:
I'm looking at it, as vastly overestimating the speed of NS2 cards. I thought presumptuously it would have close parity with the internal storage.
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I would only be worried if something like RDR2 (a last gen game) releases on a game-key card for the same reason. We've had tons of games release on Switch 1 physical that seemed impossible, and Switch 2 data cards are supposedly vastly superior so unless this is an actual widespread issue I'd look at it more of as a one-off, case-by-case atm.
 
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Gambit2483 said:
I would only be worried if something like RDR2 (a last gen game) releases on a game-key card for the same reason. We've had tons of games release on Switch 1 physical that seemed impossible, and Switch 2 data cards are supposedly vastly superior so unless this is an actual widespread issue I'd look at it more of as a one-off, case-by-case atm.
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RDR2 is a PS4 game that ran off HDD, that would make you "worried"?
 
I figured. I always buy my games digitally so this doesn't apply to me, but once I saw the youtube videos showing the loading speed differences between Switch 2 game cards VS internal SSD, I knew something was up.
 
adamsapple said:
I can't find the article on a quick search right now but I distinctly remember DF mentioned in one of their articles earlier in the gen that UE5 needs something like 300MB/s for data streaming.

Both PS5 and SX are extremely comfortably over that in retrospect.
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Yeah, they even tested Ratched on low end SSD on PS5 and it was working correctly - probably the most intensive game so far on storage.
 
BlackTron said:
RDR2 is a PS4 game that ran off HDD, that would make you "worried"?
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😂 Now that I think about it that game itself is probably way too big to fit on a physical card anyways. My point is the "Typical" open world PS4 era game. Not every AAA open world game from that era would need to be downloaded to a HDD with the improved streaming speeds of UFS cards of today.
 
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Gambit2483 said:
😂 Now that I think about it that game itself is probably way too big to fit on a physical card anyways. My point is the "Typical" open world PS4 era game. Not every AAA open world game from that era would need to be downloaded to a HDD with the improved streaming speeds of UFS cards of today.
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Yeah the size of RDR2 means it wouldn't fit on the cart, but that's the bottleneck, not speed. If a game ran off PS4 HDD it can run off a Switch 1 game card. All of them.
 
BlackTron said:
Yeah the size of RDR2 means it wouldn't fit on the cart, but that's the bottleneck, not speed. If a game ran off PS4 HDD it can run off a Switch 1 game card. All of them.
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Exactly, just look at Cyberpunk 2077. That's a PS4/PS5 game that fully runs off the card. Sure it's not as "wide-open" of an open world game like Outlaws but if that game can do it, I fully expect most games of PS4 era to be able to. Only then would I be worried about Switch 2 card speeds.
 
Gambit2483 said:
Exactly, just look at Cyberpunk 2077. That's a PS4/PS5 game that fully runs off the card. Sure it's not as "wide-open" of an open world game like Outlaws but if that game can do it, I fully expect most games of PS4 era to be able to. Only then would I be worried about Switch 2 card speeds.
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Any game that ran off HDD can run off Switch 1 cart. I was never worried about this.
 
diffusionx said:
The micro sd card in Switch 2 is equivalent to installing a SSD in your PS5. You need to get a SSD with a certain speed rating to do so.
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Yeah, i mean, the thing.what i want to say is, unlike ps5, with switch 2, most games can run from catridge without the need of installing it.
Starwars is an exception. On the otherhand, its still strange when comparing.it with cyberpunk. Someone pointed out that it works on ps4 as well. But the thing is, switch 2 is using ps5 textures. Ps4 is using much lower texture quality.
 
Kurt said:
Yeah, i mean, the thing.what i want to say is, unlike ps5, with switch 2, most games can run from catridge without the need of installing it.
Starwars is an exception. On the otherhand, its still strange when comparing.it with cyberpunk. Someone pointed out that it works on ps4 as well. But the thing is, switch 2 is using ps5 textures. Ps4 is using much lower texture quality.
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I mean, CP2077 streaming works on PS4 in the technical sense but it still runs awful. Also, this version has PL which didnt even launch on PS4.
 
Gambit2483 said:
😂 Now that I think about it that game itself is probably way too big to fit on a physical card anyways. My point is the "Typical" open world PS4 era game. Not every AAA open world game from that era would need to be downloaded to a HDD with the improved streaming speeds of UFS cards of today.
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I looked it up... base game on Steam is 67 GB and that doesn't include all languages. I'm sure they did some cutbacks but does look like it'd be too big for a cart anyway.
 
Bojji said:
Cerny overdelivered with PS5 SSD, it's much faster than needed. Almost all games run the same on XSX SSD that is less than half the speed. PS5 is more expensive to build thanks to that (and they are gutting SSDs in the newest Euro DE edition).
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This is true to some extent although the point I was trying to make was that that an SSD could have an influence on the game design and streaming in the first place, which seems strange yes but a lot of people at the time of the PS5's release denied that an SSD or any form of high bandwidth low latency storage solution should effect games. The infamous "it can run on my rig with a HDD just fine".

As for Cerny's "overkill" solution, I believe it's his job as an engineer of the consoles to make the right bets and take risks, the PS5's SSD was one of those and that vision has not "yet" been fully realised, or it may never, we'll see.

Regardless I'd say the PS5 is an extremely well designed console, and offers performance parity with it's competitor the Series X despite the latter's advantage in compute performance.
 
DF claims Outlaws on Switch is only 20ish GB so maybe they really did gut it.

BlackTron said:
Are you looking up Cyberpunk? That game is already on a real Switch card. RDR2 is like 120-150GB
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Cyberpunk is 62 GB on Steam (and that doesn't include all languages) and Phantom Liberty is 23 (and that also doesn't include the languages).
 
Loomy said:
We did indeed lose our collective shits for several pages on a a thread or 2. Hard to keep track, the whole front page was Nintendo threads back in April lol
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LOL! Oh I'm sure, now that I'm learning how Switch 2 works. I had to check out though. It was too much information and misinformation for a device I didn't want at launch. I'm still gonna get it next year, but at least I'm understanding the draw backs.
 
Bojji said:
Yeah, they even tested Ratched on low end SSD on PS5 and it was working correctly - probably the most intensive game so far on storage.
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It worked.....but the performance was bad. So in my mind, that's not "working correctly". It just boots up and runs.

TheRedRiders said:
This is true to some extent although the point I was trying to make was that that an SSD could have an influence on the game design and streaming in the first place, which seems strange yes but a lot of people at the time of the PS5's release denied that an SSD or any form of high bandwidth low latency storage solution should effect games. The infamous "it can run on my rig with a HDD just fine".

As for Cerny's "overkill" solution, I believe it's his job as an engineer of the consoles to make the right bets and take risks, the PS5's SSD was one of those and that vision has not "yet" been fully realised, or it may never, we'll see.

Regardless I'd say the PS5 is an extremely well designed console, and offers performance parity with it's competitor the Series X despite the latter's advantage in compute performance.
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Plus people need to understand that this generation isn't going to end in a year. We'll be getting PS5 and Series X games for another 5 years MINIMUM! How does anybody know games won't utilize more than 3 GB/s streaming from the SSD? Who's to say the PS5's SSD solution is over engineered when we are only half way through this gen's lifespan?
 
mckmas8808 said:
It worked.....but the performance was bad. So in my mind, that's not "working correctly". It just boots up and runs.
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That's not true.

They tested the slowest compatible SSD with PS5 and noted there was no perceptible difference. The load times were split second apart between them and there were minor stutters in the portal transitions but they were seen on all drives, even the internal or the super fast WD SSD.

 
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So best performance possible, can trade-in, sell, lend or give the game away too? Only need a one-time up front download? Seems like the best case scenario for the consumer here.
 
mckmas8808 said:
It worked.....but the performance was bad. So in my mind, that's not "working correctly". It just boots up and runs.



Plus people need to understand that this generation isn't going to end in a year. We'll be getting PS5 and Series X games for another 5 years MINIMUM! How does anybody know games won't utilize more than 3 GB/s streaming from the SSD? Who's to say the PS5's SSD solution is over engineered when we are only half way through this gen's lifespan?
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It worked correctly like adamsapple adamsapple already mentioned.

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So far no one is maxing that PS5 SSD, and by the time MAYBE someone will - PS6 will be the default console.

Machine Learning will be new "SSD secret sauce".
 
For performance reasons, we've been able to install games from the disc to the console since the original Xbox, or even earlier?

Instead of trying to sell people an empty cartridge, the Ubisoft devs should have made a real cartridge that installed to the Switch 2.
 
adamsapple said:
That's not true.

They tested the slowest compatible SSD with PS5 and noted there was no perceptible difference. The load times were split second apart between them and there were minor stutters in the portal transitions but they were seen on all drives, even the internal or the super fast WD SSD.

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I think most of the advantages comes from decompression hardware and very low latency of SSDs rather than raw speed, I mean, it could probably make a difference if the data was way bigger since we'd need sustained high speed
 
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adamsapple said:
That's not true.

They tested the slowest compatible SSD with PS5 and noted there was no perceptible difference. The load times were split second apart between them and there were minor stutters in the portal transitions but they were seen on all drives, even the internal or the super fast WD SSD.

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I wasn't talking about that video. I was speaking of this test that they did.

 
Due to this info, I feel less confident that current third party games will be game on cart. I really pray FF7 Remake trilogy will be game on cart but that will be most likely a game key card
 
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